New Prime Rewards Process: Double Grind Wall

[bubonicbite1]

ok wow.. so has anyone thought about how many keys you can get so easily? with keys turning into projections, it means those 20-200 (depending on how long you played) t1 mobile defense keys get turned into projections. think about it, IF all projections are the same until you do a mission which awards both residual and a reward you will have that many more tries to get something good. IF the projections are all different well then those 200 or more keys will be easily turned into fodder for ducatts or residual regardless of how it goes, as well as being able to simply farm those higher tier projections for better chances after charging them.

more than likely the projections are different so you have plenty of fodder to throw at it and get easy rewards, i mean who likes playing those mobile defense missions in void anyways? if it is all based on tiers of projections and you can get a tear mission for that tier that is easy+repeatable then boom faster missions and more rewards

[bad4youLT]

projectios are going to be the "new void keys" nothing changes here

[Ketec]

From what i see - the grind wall was built thicker and higher.
Farm projections one by one, then find a random rift then you have chance for ONE reward.
No more  tiers? defense? survival? MD? So basically you have a massive pool of prime parts and you have a chance to get one random one?

Lets not forget that there is a high chance that you also have to "craft" the projections - adding further time wall.
No more variety in void  - all the missions are now same? Time gated specific rifts that greatly hurt people who only have a few hour cap each day to play - and rifts simply may not be available at that time for the parts they need?

Edited July 5, 2016 by Ketec

[Tymerc]

If these tears spawn randomly throughout missions that would make exploring the various tile sets even better.

[BlackCoMerc]

26 minutes ago, -SDM-NerevarCM said:

 

Oh its you again.

So much salt. 

Did no one read the part where I said it SEEMS like more grind? And that I wanted to STRESS the SEEMS part? 

But ok, I will bite.

Current system:

1. Do Excavation (roughly 20 minutes)

2. Get 1-3 keys

3. Go to Void mission

4. Get 1-4 rewards

 

New System:

1. Go to mission

2. HOPE to get a Projection

3. Hope you have a projection to use on a Tear.

4. HOPE there is a tear available

5. Go to tear

6. Get ONE reward (not 3 or 4)

 

Pretty undeniable its going to increase the grind. Again.

That said, its also going to alleviate running the same Void tiles over and over. Which is nice. Except...at the same time, where we used to run missions knowing we were going to get SOME reward, now, even THAT is uncertain.

I could of course be wrong. Hell, I HOPE I am wrong. I want to be wrong. Because this honestly sounds like making things worse. Again. But then, making things worse has been the trend the last year or so. Not as if it would be a surprise.

[Sajochi]

1 minute ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Oh its you again.

So much salt. 

Did no one read the part where I said it SEEMS like more grind? And that I wanted to STRESS the SEEMS part? 

But ok, I will bite.

Current system:

1. Do Excavation (roughly 20 minutes)

2. Get 1-3 keys

3. Go to Void mission

4. Get 1-4 rewards

 

New System:

1. Go to mission

2. HOPE to get a Projection

3. Hope you have a projection to use on a Tear.

4. HOPE there is a tear available

5. Go to tear

6. Get ONE reward (not 3 or 4)

 

Pretty undeniable its going to increase the grind. Again.

That said, its also going to alleviate running the same Void tiles over and over. Which is nice. Except...at the same time, where we used to run missions knowing we were going to get SOME reward, now, even THAT is uncertain.

I could of course be wrong. Hell, I HOPE I am wrong. I want to be wrong. Because this honestly sounds like making things worse. Again. But then, making things worse has been the trend the last year or so. Not as if it would be a surprise.

1. Competing a tear = 1 reward

2. Getting rewards gives residuals

3. residuals tip the scales for rare rewards

These have been confirmed in the devstream, and the latest news announcement

Things we know:

1.Tears will appear like syndicate missions (confirmed last devstream)

2. Current keys will become projections.

Things we don't know

1. How projections are collected/aquired

2. What it means to "fill" a projection

We cannot determine if the new system is worse right now because of what we don't know. Anything beyond that is speculation. I gave my two cents in this thread once, now I'm thoroughly convinced this is another doom thread. For all we know, the new system will be way better, and from the looks of it, I'm leaning towards the positives.

[Foefaller]

Three things:

1. If projections are going to be Void Keys 2.0, it seems like a logical step to assume that most, if not all, of the ways to acquire keys now will still existed for projections in the future. Positive thinking? maybe, but right now I'm wanting to stay positive. For all we know, they could be *more* common to make up for the fact you can't get multiple rewards from a single key/keyshare anymore.

2. There will always be an active tear for each void tier. I'm not making this up, Steve confirmed it in a tweet: 

3. Steve has also confirmed that the list of possible rewards will be less diluted than they exist now for keys, so yes, you will be getting fewer prime parts per projection than you do now for survival/defense/interception/sab keys, but you'll have a greater chance of getting the part you wanted, and not end up with just junk parts for ducats:

 

[-Sandman]

11 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

 

New System:

1. Go to mission

2. HOPE to get a Projection

3. Hope you have a projection to use on a Tear.

4. HOPE there is a tear available

5. Go to tear

6. Get ONE reward (not 3 or 4)

 

 

If it works out like this practically, RIP Warframe. 

So..... anyone can recommend me a new game to try?

[Sajochi]

1 minute ago, -Sandman said:

 

If it works out like this practically, RIP Warframe. 

So..... anyone can recommend me a new game to try?

Read this, literally posted before you did:

3 minutes ago, Foefaller said:

Three things:

1. If projections are going to be Void Keys 2.0, it seems like a logical step to assume that most, if not all, of the ways to acquire keys now will still existed for projections in the future. Positive thinking? maybe, but right now I'm wanting to stay positive. For all we know, they could be *more* common to make up for the fact you can't get multiple rewards from a single key/keyshare anymore.

2. There will always be an active tear for each void tier. I'm not making this up, Steve confirmed it in a tweet: 

3. Steve has also confirmed that the list of possible rewards will be less diluted than they exist now for keys, so yes, you will be getting fewer prime parts per projection than you do now for survival/defense/interception/sab keys, but you'll have a greater chance of getting the part you wanted, and not end up with just junk parts for ducats:

 

Might I suggest WoW...

[Heatnix.]

I think all of it sounds too risky and grindy right now. I don't see much up for interpretation at this point... and it does feel like the game will get grrrrrriiiiiiindddddyyy...

"there will always be tears available" Look at Nitain. Not always are people allowed to get in those missions. I foresee the same situation here.

"residuals can be used to get items" Again, this is DE. They get money out of Prime Packs. Expect residuals in single digits and wait for items to be traded for in 4-5 digits.

Edited July 5, 2016 by Heatnix.

[-Sandman]

TBH it seems as though its a much better system, but i have heard on so many occasions "we want to reduce the grind by introducing xxx" and it did not happen. So I won't hold my breath. 

And thanks. :)

[Kyronz]

It could turn out even worse then a double grind wall, since DE has a long record of abusing weighted RNG.    From the dev stream I got the impression tears will be alerts like that horrible acolyte event.

[AuroraSonicBoom]

1 hour ago, Artorius-Alter said:

I find a ''chance of something appearing'' to be a step back no matter how you try to spin it.

Right now I can go into the void whenever I want, the reward I get from it is chance, yes, but at least I don't first have to -chance- to even get to try.

Without numbers you can't say squat about whether you'll be grinding more or less. Two RNG walls(getting the correct key and drop) are not categorically worse than one time and RNG wall respectively. There are many factors in the drop tables themselves that you conveniently omit to paint a picture of your personal dreaded boogieman.

How many drops in the table you're aiming for?

How are the chances to get the item in that drop table compared to another one?

How many times in a mission can you roll for the reward, and how long between those rolls?

Those factors alone can change entirely how you perceive your grind. Is it going to be a droptable of 4 items with a 25% drop chance that you can roll for once a mission? Is it going to be two items with the one you're after only dropping 2% of the time with two chances at getting it every 20 minutes?

Timewalls have the potential to reduce the grind if the time you have to wait is compensated for. If I had to choose between grinding sabotage missions for nitain or waiting four hours for an alert, I'll gladly wait while doing other things. Assuming the worst because you mistrust DE is not an argument that holds any weight.

[-.Kitty.-]

As far as I know, DERebecca said that void tears will always be up.

The only real thing I'm wondering is how the projections will work out.

[jjpdn]

Remember that we had to grind for the Void Keys... that's was the first wall, so 2 walls is nothing new. 

[Lanadra]

2 hours ago, Redthirst said:

I don't see a difference. Right now, it's a chance for you to get a key you want, and then a chance for you to get an item you want from that key. In the new system, there are projections instead of keys.

Well, to be fair, I had somewhat forgotten about the keys themselves, I guess it's because I got so many for most of the void missions.

[PopGligor]

Just now, jjpdn said:

Remember that we had to grind for the Void Keys... that's was the first wall, so 2 walls is nothing new. 

This is what people seem to forget. Yes, many have hundreds of void keys, but each of these keys has "a chance to drop from various missions", so it's basically the same thing. Then you have so much redundant garbage in void keys, like upgrade cores, forma blueprints, orokin cells, etc. Some of the rarest keys, like captures and exterminates, actually drop only one item per key, making them essentially the same thing. People complaining about this system should really try farming mag prime. Those T2 captures are quite rare. ;)

[vrdwrst2]

2 hours ago, DeMeritus said:

So now you have to grind RNG so that you can grind more RNG so that you can grind some more RNG so you can attempt the wacky RNG on DE_Sheldon's drop tables.

You have to

1. Randomly obtain a Projection (RNG)

2. Visit a level with a corresponding Void Tear with your Projection (more alert...)

3. Complete the level and randomly get a reward. 

More like rng, alert, rng. Close enough tho. 

[XtheMATTx]

2 hours ago, BlackCoMerc said:

From the page:

"Every mission, a CHANCE to obtain a projection."

This is...bad. This does not sound like a chance to obtain SOME prime reward. But more like a CHANCE for any reward AT ALL.

"Bring that Projection to a Void Tear to charge it. Tears CAN spawn on any mission."

The SECOND grind wall. Will tears ALWAYS be available somewhere? Or will they spawn Alert style, for limited times? 

Right now it seems - and I want to stress, SEEMS like you first have to be LUCKY enough to even GET a projection at all. THEN you have to luck out AGAIN and get a Void Tear to spawn.

Which would be absolutely awful, in my opinion, and likely to turn me further away from playing.

You forgot to think about the fact that we don't have to farm for keys anymore.

[LordOfScrugging]

2 hours ago, Artorius-Alter said:

I find a ''chance of something appearing'' to be a step back no matter how you try to spin it.

Right now I can go into the void whenever I want, the reward I get from it is chance, yes, but at least I don't first have to -chance- to even get to try.

the way i see this is it's easier to get PRIME parts, rather than a reward in general. keep in mind we have some trash tier rewards in the void now, the way i'm interpreting is it'll be easier to get prime parts since that's what most of the projections will contain (maybe some cores, or forma thrown in as well) but with that there are the residuals that you can throw in as fodder to get rarer items

Edited July 5, 2016 by LordOfScrugging

[ComfyOlivia]

2 hours ago, Artorius-Alter said:

I find a ''chance of something appearing'' to be a step back no matter how you try to spin it.

Right now I can go into the void whenever I want, the reward I get from it is chance, yes, but at least I don't first have to -chance- to even get to try.

Y'all have to remember that this exact thing can be said about void keys. You aren't gaurunteed to get the keys you want and you may need to farm for them. The only reason it doesn't seem that way for most people is because of the huge stockpiles of keys we have.

You had a chance of getting the key you wanted from whatever mission dropped the particular key.

Then, with that key, you had a chance of getting what you needed.

Now, also remember that all of your current void keys are being changed into Projections. Most of us with stockpiles won't really have to worry about the first wall, from how I've perceived it.

The biggest change will be the increased chance to get a rare item as you do more. Granted, it could be negligable, but I don't think there's anything to go wild about until release.

[Brasten]

My concern remains access to specific types of Projections. We can mostly agree that Prime Item acquisitions is already a double wall (RNG for Key, RNG for Drop). My issue is that it is currently already fairly nasty to actually find the correct kind of Key you want, and this could get even worse with an increase in the number and type of Projects. There are currently ways to try and bias at least the Tier of Key you find, which helps mitigated some of the grind and reduce the odds to say 1/6 or 1/7. In some cases as good as 1/3.

We haven't been given information on how Projections will actually be acquired, how they will be distributed across different mission (enemy) levels, and if more Projections will be added beyond the current Key amount (25).

In a simplified form take a look at Syndicate Key Packs. 1 assured Tier 3 or 4 key, 2 assured Tier 1 or 2. Which is currently 1 roll at 1/13 of getting the T3-4 key you want. And 2 rolls at 1/12 of getting the T1-2 key you're looking for.

Now lets say DE adds 8 new Projections (2 at each Tier range, assuming those still apply). We now have Projection Dilution instead of Void Drop Dilution.

What I want to see is how Projection acquisition will be handled. This, more than anything, will determine if this new system will be better or worse than Void Keys.

2 hours ago, Artorius-Alter said:

Generally what I don't like about things like this is that by the time everyone concludes the old way was better, it'll already be at a point where the old way will never return.

Not quite true, it may take a year or more however. Example: Map 1.5 being vastly superior to Map 2.0, and it taking DE well over a year to finally admit to it.

[--F--NerevarCM]

26 minutes ago, vrdwrst2 said:

You have to

1. Randomly obtain a Projection (RNG)

2. Visit a level with a corresponding Void Tear with your Projection (more alert...)

3. Complete the level and randomly get a reward. 

More like rng, alert, rng. Close enough tho. 

1- Like the current void keys.

2-

3- Like the current Void System

 But we can increase our chances + we don't have to do the same map all the time. More like a better system tho...

Edited July 5, 2016 by -SDM-NerevarCM

[(PSN)j232000]

My main apprehension about the new system is that it sure sounds like it's making getting prime gear an essentially solitary activity: each player who wants to get something will have to bring their own projection and end up getting a different reward.  So for people who usually do void missions in full groups, a projection would one-fourth as valuable as a key (but we can bet we're not going to get that kind of exchange rate in the transition), and you no longer get the same shared purpose from shared rewards from those missions.

 

[EmptyDevil]

14 minutes ago, (PS4)j232000 said:

My main apprehension about the new system is that it sure sounds like it's making getting prime gear an essentially solitary activity: each player who wants to get something will have to bring their own projection and end up getting a different reward.  So for people who usually do void missions in full groups, a projection would one-fourth as valuable as a key (but we can bet we're not going to get that kind of exchange rate in the transition), and you no longer get the same shared purpose from shared rewards from those missions.

 

On the bright side if that is true, it prevents 'keyshare scam' threads from popping up.