Shield has become mostly a dump stat

[DSpite]

14 hours ago, DoomFruit said:

Or stop bleed procs from activating if you have shields up, because the damn bullet never touched you in the first place.

As long as we can't also do it to enemy units as well, then I don't see a problem.

[Matt89Connor]

 I think maybe the shield need a rework to increase the resistance to damage or increase the number of point max (maybe redirection will add 660% instead 440%)

[DoomFruit]

2 hours ago, DSpite said:

As long as we can't also do it to enemy units as well, then I don't see a problem.

Yes, that's fine by me. No bleeding on anything which still has shields.

[TaylorsContraction]

Guardian + arcane barrier + arcane aegis = shields are good late game. So long as you aren't 1 shot. But yes the fact that we need such powerful arcanes to make them viable means it's useless for 90% of the player base. Even I don't have a full aegis set yet.

[Wolfnrun]

Hmmm, maybe if we had proto-shielding like the high level corpus due, we would be in much better shape 

[BlackCoMerc]

22 hours ago, radthezero said:

So I'm gonna be that guy.

On paper, Shield is good. It protects your frames before damage gets to their health. The biggest problem being, since Shields don't apply armor (as of update 12, which was eras ago, by the way). So they go down very fast. Which leaves you to your health, where armor stat can protect you. This mostly becomes a problem on the endgame, where you can potentially take humongous damage, or a slash or toxic proc can decimate your defenses with ease (and as much as they ignore your shields and go straight to your health, Toxin has some Armor mitigation, as some of you might've realized - try taking a Toxin proc with Zephyr and with Ash and see which will take more damage). Moreover, when something depletes your Shield, damage overflow makes so that your health takes the hit along with it - which can be very annoying if you're caught by, say, a Nullifier's snipe shot. Fast Deflection surely helps, but it ends up finding little space on most builds, since armor does a better job at protecting most frames, and those that can't count on it usually have some way to counterbalance such deficiency by avoiding damage.

As a consequence, most endgame builds use the Health + Armor combo, and the most squishy frames like Banshee or Nyx are rarely seen on any mission past level 50. While some like Mag can run Shields basically because she can replenish and Overshield easily, it's a niche thing. It would be nice if Armor were to be applied to Shields again, or if we were to take a less overpowered option, if damage overflow could be stopped (as in, when your shields reach zero, the damage is stopped and not appliend to your health). As it is right now, aside from a few niche builds, no one even cares about Shield as a mechanic, because it becomes rather useless after the enemies start doing a certain amount of damage.

There is no justification for physical damage procs that trigger while shields are up. If the projectile was stopped, how did it cause bleeding? If it got through, then shields are BUGGED and not working properly.

This is typical bandaid quick fix garbage: shields are too powerful, make something that renders then intermittently useless.

Powers are too OP. Make them intermittently useless.

The REAL solution is Balance. Borderlands has shields, and across three games and New Game Plus modes, they have never needed to make something that hits through shields. Because their games are properly balanced.

DE needs to fix the garbage design of physical proc. Like power immunity, knockdown spam and Nullifiers it's become a crutch for increasingly desperate developers who cannot manage to add challenge while leaving players in control. It's utterly ridiculous and needs to be fixed.

Edited July 29, 2016 by BlackCoMerc

[Twistedsparkle]

bumping this so bad
shields absolutely need a buff

[Matt89Connor]

1 hour ago, Wolfnrun said:

Hmmm, maybe if we had proto-shielding like the high level corpus due, we would be in much better shape 

a good idea,but not a bubble pls XD

[motorfirebox]

I think there's a way to have our cake and eat it too.

DE doesn't want shields to completely overshadow health, so they put in stuff that can bypass shields. The effect of that is that health completely overshadows shields. The easiest way to balance these two sides is to have shields provide a certain amount of damage reduction while they're up, even on effects that bypass shields.

So you can still get hit with a bleed proc through your shield. However, while your shield is up, the bleed proc only hits for 50% of its damage. Same with toxin, etcetera.

[DoomFruit]

Health gets damage reduction from armour, shields don't. Health also benefits from Rage and QT - shields don't either. Toxin should go through shields completely, like it always did (either that or gas), but no bleed procs at all.

[Valiant]

11 hours ago, DSpite said:

As long as we can't also do it to enemy units as well, then I don't see a problem.

Sometimes the bleed proc we inflict on enemies is barley noticeable. Theirs scales. Ours pretty much has a limit which is coupled badly with their scaling health/armour/shields.

Either way I would certainly agree to this. 

[lyravega]

Armor should either apply to shields, or there should be a new stat called "Coherence" or whatever fancy name that works exactly like armor but for shields. 

They should add "Coherence" (shield armor) mods to allow us to reinforce this value. Tinker & tweak with some frame abilities that are related to shields so they may also give shield armor bonus. Take a look at frame overall stats, and add a moderate value of shield armor to those having high shields but very low armor.

After those, they can add some interesting mods like these to give people more defensive options: One converting shields to health (for example, 100% shield converted to 150% health; health bonus is not base health, it's based on the amount of shields removed), and another one converting health to shields (for example, 50% health converted to 75% shields, same rules from other example applies here). 

But before doing any of those, or even considering them, they need to fix shield overdamage issue. If I'm getting what OP said right, then it means if you have 5 shield, 500 health, enough armor to mitigate 50% damage, and take 505 damage, you die. 1005 damage should kill you, not 505, but lazy programming took over years ago I guess (just like mod fusing). Correct me if I'm wrong though...

[RealPandemonium]

3 hours ago, motorfirebox said:

DE doesn't want shields to completely overshadow health, so they put in stuff that can bypass shields. The effect of that is that health completely overshadows shields.

But... it doesn't.  Sources of shield-ignoring damage are rare, Slash procs are weak and take a long time to do their damage (giving you ample time to roll to reduce it, or to even just pop a restore,) and Toxin damage is easily avoided and never encountered outside of the Infested faction.  

The reason no one uses shield mods anymore is because level Sortie-level enemies deal so much damage that your hp pool doesn't matter, and also because of the prevalence of mod loadouts that late you trivialize gameplay with your powers such that defense is not needed.  

Edited July 29, 2016 by RealPandemonium

[motorfirebox]

3 hours ago, RealPandemonium said:

But... it doesn't.  Sources of shield-ignoring damage are rare, Slash procs are weak and take a long time to do their damage (giving you ample time to roll to reduce it, or to even just pop a restore,) and Toxin damage is easily avoided and never encountered outside of the Infested faction.  

The reason no one uses shield mods anymore is because level Sortie-level enemies deal so much damage that your hp pool doesn't matter, and also because of the prevalence of mod loadouts that late you trivialize gameplay with your powers such that defense is not needed.  

That isn't even remotely why I don't pack shield mods, and it doesn't seem to be why most of the posters in this thread don't pack shield mods, either. I pug pretty much everything, so I can't depend on having a team comp that will be able to trivialize gameplay, whether we're talking on the star map or in sorties. I have to build survivability into my loadout, and in my experience, shield mods provide far less dependable survivability than health mods.

[tnccs215]

10 hours ago, motorfirebox said:

That isn't even remotely why I don't pack shield mods, and it doesn't seem to be why most of the posters in this thread don't pack shield mods, either. I pug pretty much everything, so I can't depend on having a team comp that will be able to trivialize gameplay, whether we're talking on the star map or in sorties. I have to build survivability into my loadout, and in my experience, shield mods provide far less dependable survivability than health mods.

Agreed. While I have to admit that shielding is not as useless as most seem to think in this thread, and that I think making armor affect shields will only buff those frames that least need it-- high shield, low armor frames will still suffer-- I cannot agree with Pandemonium. Slash procs are only relatively small, and if you do not bring things like life strike-- instead focusing on shields for protection-- you will die anyway (personally, I think warframe has an healing problem that is bandaid by restores and lifestrike); and toxic eximus are a thing, and quite deadly for that matter. Goes beyond shield-bypassing gimmicks though.

Maybe it is me, but quick recharge mechanics such as guardian are not reliable enough. They are useful, no doubt, but you cannot count on them. The only frames I feel can effectively use shields are Mag, Trinity and Volt-- second two completely due to augments, and the first greatly enpowered by one.

In the end, I think @EmptyDevil's Shield Gate for Players is the solution that would make shielding worthwhile, while still unique.

[F4talFr4me]

Guess thats why Inaros is so tanky and (supposedly) godlike. his whole bar of HP is using armor. unlike shields. i mean if i get bleed threw my shield somehow i dont see a reason armor cant work with shields.

[Dogefighter]

I'd love to see shields that mitigated all overflow when depleted.  This'd largely solve the "one-shot" complaints as well.  We'd still have to deal with Toxin somehow getting through our bullet stopping, body-encompassing shields, but most toxin damage can be avoided, I guess, so that's tolerable.

And maybe make mods like fast deflection an exilus mod.  There's just no room on most builds for it.

[RealPandemonium]

Are you guys using Guardian?  Guardian + Redirection is pretty much gravy on most frames.  If you're having 2 bars worth of shield depleted more often than every 30 seconds, you're probably doing something wrong.  

[DukeSilver97]

Thanks for this. I'm a fairly new player, just hit MR5 and didn't quite get the concept of armor and how it pertains to health and shield until now. This is an especially big help since I just got Valkyr and I was wondering what her impressive armor stat actually does to help me. 

[motorfirebox]

2 hours ago, RealPandemonium said:

Are you guys using Guardian?  Guardian + Redirection is pretty much gravy on most frames.  If you're having 2 bars worth of shield depleted more often than every 30 seconds, you're probably doing something wrong.  

In my experience, the issue isn't about having enough shields to mitigate damage. The issue is effects which bypass shields. Yeah, if I run Redirection + Guardian, I'll have full shields most of the time—right up to the point where a slash proc takes away the last of my hp.

[K0bra]

Im absolutely for a rework/change whatever too. +1

[Thural]

I just want a fix for overflow damage bypassing armor ;-;

[main_antagonist]

On 29/07/2016 at 10:11 AM, MXultra said:

Does nobody use Quick Thinking on squishies?

I'd also like a shield buff, but when the HP+Armor combo doesn't work, try QT+Zenurik.

Quick thinking scales with armour.

[RealPandemonium]

On 7/30/2016 at 4:01 PM, motorfirebox said:

In my experience, the issue isn't about having enough shields to mitigate damage. The issue is effects which bypass shields. Yeah, if I run Redirection + Guardian, I'll have full shields most of the time—right up to the point where a slash proc takes away the last of my hp.

Bleeds are weak and take time, and Toxin damage sources are rare, may take time, and are easy to avoid.  A Slash proc will not remove the last of your HP because you will heal it through some means over the course of a mission; if you were using an HP/Armor build you would need to heal much more often, so there is already a source of healing in play in this comparison (Medi-Ray is great when relying on shields for defense, btw.)  

[motorfirebox]

1 hour ago, RealPandemonium said:

Bleeds are weak and take time, and Toxin damage sources are rare, may take time, and are easy to avoid.  A Slash proc will not remove the last of your HP because you will heal it through some means over the course of a mission; if you were using an HP/Armor build you would need to heal much more often, so there is already a source of healing in play in this comparison (Medi-Ray is great when relying on shields for defense, btw.)  

Again, that simply isn't my experience.

Edited August 1, 2016 by motorfirebox