BLADESTORM: Does it really NEED to Change?

[1tsyB1tsyN1nj4]

1 hour ago, kitsu said:

Ash's blade storm is the last of the remaining "press 4 to nuke everything" ability. Not only that, but is the least friendly ability with team mates. I've seen too many ashes waste time in bladestorm trying to 'save' fallen tenno. It is literally pretty stupid in my eyes.

Ember is still around too, just because she doesn't last into "endgame" doesn't mean she doesn't nuke the star chart still

20 hours ago, Camelslayer said:

The difference between Bladestorm and every other ult in the game is other ults can actually be resisted and aren't perfect in every single situation.

Bladestorm, using a level 30 Ash with no Power Strength, does 2000 Finisher damage- which bypasses all resistances, armor, and shields. Old Miasma couldn't even do that.

If there's one change that needs made, it's to change it to Slash damage. Problem solved. Not as broken anymore. 
Bleed procs could use a minor rework so that Moas and Rollers don't bleed (because bleeding robots make zero sense, hilarious as it is), but otherwise, just change Finisher damage (or better yet, remove Finisher damage from the game completely). Damage types that bypass all resistances in a game are poor game design, and I can't name a single game where it's actually been done right.

Damage 3.0 might end up changing that, but we know nothing about it yet

[Jakorak]

21 hours ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Arguments FOR Changing Bladestorm:

It isn't interactive

Its a Slideshow (hehe, I said this myself not long ago)

Its more prone to Spam than the dollar menu in a Hawaiian sandwich shop. 

WAAAA! Ash-Hole stole all my killz! Mommy! I'm taking my Energy Vampire and going Home!

 

you forgot a few of bladestorm's worst offenses:

1) It prevents allies from doing damage to your targets (your targets are literally invulnerable to your allies while you're attacking them)

2) It makes you essentially invulnerable while it is active

3) the jerking camera is puke worthy and definitely unplayable for anyone with motion sickness

these should be added to your list as these are incredibly legitimate concerns

[(PSN)avatar-heart]

21 hours ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Let us calmly, in the manner of mature adults, assess the situation.

Arguments FOR Changing Bladestorm:

It isn't interactive

Its a Slideshow (hehe, I said this myself not long ago)

Its more prone to Spam than the dollar menu in a Hawaiian sandwich shop. 

WAAAA! Ash-Hole stole all my killz! Mommy! I'm taking my Energy Vampire and going Home!

 

Arguments AGAINST Changing Bladestorm:

Its FUN! (Isnt this still important)

Its about the only efficient room nuker we've got left (seriously, this is more true every day)

It fits Ash's role as an Assassin in the fast paced, horde mode world of Warframe (Dishonored this aint, and thats ok)

Its FUN!

 

A couple of considerations:

I would speculate that Waframe has a considerable number of rather casual fans. People who play the game to veg out, have fun and (in the immortal worlds of my girl) "Make things go splodey." I would further wager that the bulk of Warframe's fan, while probably not quite this casual, are somewhat closer to this demographic than to the serious, hard-core, "I came from ARMA III and I want THAT, but with Parkour and Ninjas" crowd. I would lastly wager that the bulk of those fans who also happen to be Ash users...very vehemently do not want his Ultimate changed. 

But it kills everything in a blink without much interaction! 

Yeah. So does Avalanche. Or Maim when its not busy stunning more people than Buzzfeed talking about dresses and jaws. Where the Star Map is concerned, a Vaykor or Sancti weapon exploding kills everything in the room. How interactive are they? About as interactive as World on Fire. Or old Saryn. You know, the one people actually USED?

As it exists right now, Warframe features a number of Warframes capable of performing a number of roles. Support. Defense. Tank. Nuker. Warframe features these things because at heart, its an Action RPG. With guns and a third person view, sure. But that doesnt change the fact. And ARPG games are notorious for having (and needing) Nuke abilities. It goes with the territory.

And until and unless Warframe undergoes the sort of changes necessary to convert it into a true tactical TPS with abilities, its still an ARPG. So why not let it have a room nuker or two? Its not as if you are forced to play in a squad with one. Go PUG? See an Ash? Kindly ask them not to spam Storm...or drop. 

But Merc...its so spammable. 

Yes it is. And so is Avalanche. With which I have outkilled Ash on numerous occasions. WoF is spammable. Maim and Hysteria are near-permanent, always on modes. Oh, and Peacemaker...dont get me started. Mesa doesnt NEED no stinkin' swords. My point here is everything in the game is spammable. But  this doesnt make abilities bad, unfair or in need of change. 

Spammable abilities are a product of other design decisions (possibly flaws) that have nothing to do with the abilities themselves, and everything to do with 75% efficiency, Fleeting Expertise, Energy Siphon, Energy Vampire (cause that's a reasonable ability) and Orbs dropping like candy at a parade. Just because other flaws in the game allow abilities to be spammed now, doesnt mean we need to address yet another symptom. We need to balance energy and the economy surrounding it, NOT nerf the abilities that use that energy into borderline uselessness. 

All of which is not to say Ash DOES NOT need changed. Maybe he does. But we thought Saryn needed changed, too. And so she got it. And now she mostly goes on a shelf, except for those few people (and I've not seen one; seriously, not ONE) who still use her after her change. I keep her around, hoping someone comes to their senses and reverts most of the damage done to her at some point in the near future (seriously, your definition of Synergy is write a Macro or suffer Carpel Tunnel, why?) but I dont hold out much hope. I mean, she's still useful, I understand that; by pressing 3, 1, 1, 1, 2, 3, 1, 1, 4 after shooting 19 enemies with a stug or Viral Flamethrower within exactly 5m of Saryn on a Tuesday during a leap year blue moon in early March of where in the month hosts Easter you can get her to do something resembling her old level of damage.

Or...you can just bring Mesa, Frost or Equinox and have a much easier time killing all those armored enemies. Because you were using Corrosive Projection anyway, silly. Of course you were.

Personally, after using him for a time...I'm not so sure Ash really needs changed. I think the game needs frames to fill every role. I think we are perilously close to losing our last efficient Nuke. I think the game is much more fun when we are allowed to be as powerful as our enemies, if not more so.

Does the game need more challenging content? Sure it does. Modes with no Orbs as loot, limited energy and other optional modifiers should exist. Maybe a nightmare mode on every node, for bonus affinity and resources, even credits. But not every node needs to be Dark Souls in Space every day, and while yes I am aware that's a stretch, I still maintain that this game is, at heart, an ARPG, and that if we keep nerfing all the Nukers - and it will be perceived as a Nerf I promise - we will continue to see players leave the game, as we are now. 

Just some food for thought. Thanks for reading and please, lets keep it rational.

 

YOU cannot kill the OTHER players targets, nuff said ;3

[Drufo]

Mmmmh... IMO a change to Blade Storm must be carefully thought to avoid redundancy. If you pay attention, you'll notice that the current Blade Storm is actually an automated AoE Teleport with less damage. In other words Teleport (in particular with the augment) and Blade Storm are two sides of the same coin. I see a lot of requests to make BS manual, but that would make it redundant, since there's already Fatal Teleport to make the same work. 

In the end my conclusion is that Blade Storm, if it has to be changed, that must be done in a unique way, or else it would be better to have it as in the good-ol'-days before the clones addition, but with some tweak (eg ability to cancel it at will, to first target high priority targets...)

 

Edited August 8, 2016 by Drufo

[----Dante----]

complains about nulifers

says bladestorm is fine

i see what you did there.

[DrBorris]

2 hours ago, H2K3 said:

It's a bit of humor, and it is what people sound like.

So... you are mocking them. I get the humor but you are still demeaning a group of people and generally categorizing people who want nerfs as whiny people.

 

And response to everyone saying "You shouldn't nerf stuff"

 

[PoulsenJ]

Nerf that scrub frame to the ground !

[Grumpy]

Better not mod that frame after the re-work, someone will complain and you'll be at the drawing board again...........lol.

[Acos]

Whether or not Bladestorm is fun is going to be fully subjective; I'd argue that it isn't and the developers might seem to agree, but the real crux of that conversation requires... well, conversation. Everything on that matter is opinion, so nothing is really right or wrong. 

What absolutely *needs* to change on Bladestorm, regardless of whatever else is changed, is the way that it locks enemies as "Ash Only" during the bladestorm animation. It isn't fair to punish the rest of the team because Ash has chosen to try to Bladestorm an Ancient Disruptor, or is spending all day locking up enemies that you could have one-shotted with some other method. When the entire mission becomes about watching an overzealous Ash player slowly try to kill things you've robbed the rest of the team of their agency, and not many players I know are willing to endure that. 

If nothing else changes beyond that, Ash will be okay. Not necessarily interesting or dynamic, but not an active detriment to the team either. 

*Edit - Also, I use Saryn quite a bit, and she is still very powerful, but you don't really appreciate that power unless you're doing high-level content. Viral naturally scales to match the heal of your opposition, so the further away you get from "One Punch Man: The Game", the more useful she will become. As you've mentioned a lot of the playerbase does play in what I would consider "casual content", so her actual power isn't readily apparent. 

Edited August 8, 2016 by Acos
Defending my Bae

[Arxfiend]

13 minutes ago, DrBorris said:

So... you are mocking them. I get the humor but you are still demeaning a group of people and generally categorizing people who want nerfs as whiny people.

 

And response to everyone saying "You shouldn't nerf stuff"

 

The issue is, the better balancing option is to buff, rather than nerf.
There are times when nerfs are needed. But Valkyr, Ash? They aren't those times. These frames were balanced. Sure, there are some features that need slight change. Like the sudden immunity Ash's targets get, but there's nothing wrong. Saying "Oh, then the game will be too easy" is blatantly wrong. Unless you get to the end-game, the abilities of other clearing 4s already tear through most in 1 or two hits.

And the more you nerf, the more other things are now overpowered. You have a sort of power recede, and before you know it, all the 4s are just throwing pillows. Buffing only truly hurts when you get to the endgame, and by then, you're likely to have many overpowered builds anyways.

The nerf mentality is what drove Destiny to S#&$. I'd hate to see Warframe meet the same fate.

Edited August 8, 2016 by H2K3

[Oranji]

Bladestorm change is coming whether you like it or not and neither this thread, discussion or anyone can stop it.

 

[owendawgx]

"Fun" ha

"Only room nuker" something which DE has taken a clear stance against . . . so that alone warrants its change

"Fits his role" and who says it wouldn't if it were changed? So do his other powers but they're disregarded because of BS

"Fun" ha

ha

also you ignored a lot more of the many arguments supporting BS changes. I assume this is because you don't want it to or you just didn't think about it that much. 

[VirtualViolet]

21 hours ago, BlackCoMerc said:

But we thought Saryn needed changed, too. And so she got it. And now she mostly goes on a shelf, except for those few people (and I've not seen one; seriously, not ONE) who still use her after her change. I keep her around, hoping someone comes to their senses and reverts most of the damage done to her at some point in the near future (seriously, your definition of Synergy is write a Macro or suffer Carpel Tunnel, why?) but I dont hold out much hope. I mean, she's still useful, I understand that; by pressing 3, 1, 1, 1, 2, 3, 1, 1, 4 after shooting 19 enemies with a stug or Viral Flamethrower within exactly 5m of Saryn on a Tuesday during a leap year blue moon in early March of where in the month hosts Easter you can get her to do something resembling her old level of damage.

I love the new Saryn. I normally don't even bother with her 4, mostly just 1 and 3, with the occasional 2 as needed. It's super easy to spread viral procs all over (that's what Spore does), at least with a melee build, halving each enemy's health (effectively increasing all damage to them by 100%, and it stacks with other damage multipliers like Nova's Molecular Prime and Banshee's Sonar). Sure, you don't see the big numbers blasting everything all at once, but you see tons of small numbers, and believe me, they add up. The only reason I haven't been playing her lately is that I have a Naramon lens on her, and I'm currently working on Madurai and finishing up Vazarin focus schools.

I don't really care about Bladestorm except for one thing: that squadmates can't hit enemies while Ash is on their backs. That irks me to no end, especially when I'm trying to keep my melee combo up and the Ash is a newer player with lousy damage, breaking my flow and slowing down the overall damage of the party. If they change just that, I'd be fine with it, and Ash players can continue happily spamming 4 all they want.

[Birdframe_Prime]

1 hour ago, eprstt said:

nope. it not need to change.

no one can fix his hands or brain by removing this ability from ash. 

and one more thing - can some ather frames dealing damage more then ash? yup. ash over powered? nope. what's the problem?

Can some other frames deal more damage than Ash? No frame that has the same kind of ability does. For all abilities in the game that deal damage by pressing the 4 button and watching the animation (That's Stomp, Crush, Avalanche, Miasma, Tornado, Prism, Discharge and Divine Spears, by the way, those are all in the same class), only Miasma comes close to doing the same damage.

Miasma? If you combo it so enemies have a Viral Proc and a Toxic Proc, and you've modded it for max Damage and Duration, it can deal up to 18,000 damage. Corrosive damage, at that, which some enemies take reduced damage from.

Avalanche? Caps out at around 5,000, and again enemies have resistances against Cold and Blast. Prism? Quite high, able to go for up to 14,000 if it stays locked on a target the entire time, but again, enemies have resistances that can reduce it.

But Bladestorm? over 20,000 Finisher damage per target. So that's 18 counts of 20,000 in one go. Finisher damage does not get reduced, that's all straight at the health, ignoring armour, shields and resistances.

If you only have one target to hit, it goes up to 104,000 Finisher damage. That's. Insane. That amount of damage can kill any regular enemy up to level 500.

So... can other frames deal more damage than Ash? Well, actually no. Not with one button. Not for 25 Energy (presuming you have high efficiency). Not while invulnerable.

Besides, as long as you have Bladestorm, why would you cast any of his other abilities? There's no reason to. This is why DE is going to do something about it.

Forget it being over-powered, it makes players not use his kit. DE specifically make warframes so that you use every ability to get the best result. Since Ash is so commonly used for Bladestorm and only Bladestorm? They're going to fix that.

[Ceryk]

It's boring and VomitCam needs to go. Seriously, VomitCam is 95% of the reason I completely ignore Ash. And I'm not the only one who has that issue. If his other powers were substantial enough to carry him and I could ignore Bladestorm, I would. But I don't feel like they do enough to be able to do that, like with a lot of other frames who can completely ignore their ultimate if necessary.

Edited August 8, 2016 by Ceryk

[War-.]

How is pressing buttons on a keyboard fun?.

Typical answer elitist.

[BlackCoMerc]

2 hours ago, SilkTerror said:

I like ash but rarely use his ulti unless its a juicy giant room of enemies waiting to be stabbed and even then i feel like a jerk taking other ppls kills who might not even be near the room but have mobs on them close by , but i have no idea how to change blade storm  so ignore my rambling xD

See, I dont get the guilt thing.

When I used to use Old Draco to level a Forma'd item, I usually went as Nyx Prime, or Maybe Frost Prime. And I was HAPPY when we had an Ash show up. Cause it knew it meant TONS of Affinity for all, and it took the pressure off me (when I used Frost) because killing high level star map enemies with Avalanche back then wasnt really happening. (With Nyx, which is still my personal favorite for Interceptions at higher levels, I am content to play the support/CC role, which is her purpose. you wont see me running around with a non-nuke frame complaining about kill steals). 

To each their own, I guess. And I am not supporting just constant spamming Bladestorm over and over...which is a problem, but NOT with the ability. On the other hand, I didnt mind 0-30 leveling a weapon because someone did it, either.

Edited August 8, 2016 by BlackCoMerc

[(PSN)Iudex_Nemesis]

Ever seen what happens when Inaros uses devour on one of Ash's target? Hilarious to watch but yes it needs changes.

Edited August 8, 2016 by (PS4)Snakeboy1990

[xPerplexing]

Ash needs the rework badly, simple as. 

1: Everyone in the community is complaining about how every kill is stolen from an Ash.
2: Ash that spam Bladestorm back and forth is exactly like the old Saryn 
3: He needs it more than Limbo, Nekros and Hydroid (Idk if hydroid is getting a rework)

Just like @BlackCoMerc said, when Draco was still a thing, you'll join a lobby and find someone using Ash, using bladestorm, taking the affinity that you needed for your warframe, companions or weapons. I mean come on. 

[(PSN)XxDarkyanxX]

26 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

See, I dont get the guilt thing.

When I used to use Old Draco to level a Forma'd item, I usually went as Nyx Prime, or Maybe Frost Prime. And I was HAPPY when we had an Ash show up. Cause it knew it meant TONS of Affinity for all, and it took the pressure off me (when I used Frost) because killing high level star map enemies with Avalanche back then wasnt really happening. (With Nyx, which is still my personal favorite for Interceptions at higher levels, I am content to play the support/CC role, which is her purpose. you wont see me running around with a non-nuke frame complaining about kill steals). 

To each their own, I guess. And I am not supporting just constant spamming Bladestorm over and over...which is a problem, but NOT with the ability. On the other hand, I didnt mind 0-30 leveling a weapon because someone did it, either.

The spamming is what makes it horrible.

I have nothing against an ability that can nuke an entire map and give other people some slack in the midst of the battlefield, but it becomes a problem when you play and there's litteraly nothing left in your proximity beside cold corpse and blue exp flying around because of how many times that ability has been used in the past 10 seconds.

It's much more entertaining to feel the heat on the battlefield, bullets everywhere, completly cornered and then the big "Boom ( Insert any nuke ability here ) " happens. It clears the way just enough time to catch your breath, revive your ally or even get some energy/ammo. And then the battlefield becomes really intense again. But no, instead we have a very spammable ability that cost next to nothing destroying everything as their very existence is inserted into the game.

The ability is a problem because the ability itself is what makes it soo spammable. There's no cooldown, no debuff, no anything beside apparent motion sickness to stop players from spamming it.

As for the guilt thing, I believe it comes from hitting enemies that you don't even see. You've meant to clear a small part of a room, maybe the whole room : that one ultimate use in the entire game.
Andddddd... You end up killing 20 enemies at random, behind walls, enemies that you've not even noticed, that you weren't thinking of killing, but that's just how the ability goes.

~Controllable ultimate, what's that?~

Edited August 8, 2016 by (PS4)XxDarkyanxX

[AlendasNaro]

Why it should be changed?:

Because people are lazy and only press 4.

Because in general. That can massively kill your enemies can kill your allies. [Take a look at those Radiation Hazard missions. Oh Ash how you are so hated]

and there is a lot of reasons already mentioned earlier.

[R34LM]

I think everyone can agree that Bladestorm is stupidly subjective. You have the one base that likes to have a simple "kill them" ability (that still fits his theme) that doesn't take much thought. Then, there are others who are used to complex wind ups to their nukes who want Bladestorm to join the bandwagon.

But, seriously, is an Ash spamming his for any different from Nova? Loki? Inaros' 1? Pre-nerf Mirage? Excalibur? Saryn? Mesa? Equinox? Nyx's 3? Seriously I could go on. the only difference is that Bladestorm just straight up kills S#&$, with the closest thing being Equinox (which requires building up the damage counter).

I think another gripe is that Ash is completely self serving. I find the argument that people hate seeing Ash in groups. Well 1. Don't join public matches if you are going to be so picky and 2. Ash is designed to be self serving since he appeals to the solo crowd, much like Wukong. His 1 kills stuff over time, his 2 protects himself, his 3 sets up scaling damage, and his 4...well yeah, and they are all made for him. Given the state of Hysteria (from a frame who was also very self serving), it doesn't surprise me that people want to drag Bladestorm to the same fate, but what's the point? They complained about Miasma for the same reason. They complained about Exalted Blade for the same reason. They complained about Peacemaker for the same reason. They complained about Crush a damn long time ago for the same reason. We get it. Just be thankful that DE finally gave in.

Edited August 9, 2016 by R34LM

[Larred]

while i have issues with bladestorm and want to see it changed, in the mean time fixing the targets not taking damage would be wonderful

[(PSN)Lord_Gremlin]

No, it doesn't need to change drastically. But it needs some small tweaks. Like being able to cancel it at will. Or not giving enemies immunity during attacks.

[Eldritchsqueaker]

36 minutes ago, AlendasNaro said:

[Take a look at those Radiation Hazard missions. Oh Ash how you are so hated]

After today's sortie, this so much this. Bladestorm is too easy, too indiscriminate and too powerful. As far as I can see that's the best way to sum all the problems up really.