Dev Stream 80: Carrier Changes feedback thread [Megathread]

[(XBOX)ToothlessApollo]

I never use Vacuum and I pick up tons of resources. I feel like it exists because people are too lazy to walk an extra two feet to pick it up themselves. Get yourselves a Smeeta Kavat and run around with a Nekros. You get MAD resources.

Edited September 19, 2016 by (XB1)ToothlessApollo

[keyboardmann]

This is a horrible idea. I strongly disagree with this over excessive difficulty. We don't need 3 new mods to do the job, which will become a stapler. It will only keep the current trend on sentinels going. As many have already said, vacuum should be a warframe passive ability. No less, no more. It will genuinely give freedom to choose whatever companion you want, with no concerns regarding loot pick up.

 

[(PSN)keilnealquan]

8 minutes ago, Kenshin98 said:

actually, helios is TOTALLY broken, I mean needing bug fixing broken, it still scans stuff I ALREADY @(*()$ DONE SCANNING and ignores what I really wants it to scan, thank the lotus for heliocor/synoid 

Maybe there's a  problem with your game? I've never seen him do that before.

[SilverMarketer]

How can something be overrated if it fills the exact niche it was made for?

The argument for these sentinels are endless but it's simply just up to taste. Some people want sentinels that helps them kill things faster, some people want sentinels that can make them stealth easier, some people want sentinels that pick-up items for them.

Why try to force them to play one way when the best part of Warframe's gameplay is the freedom of playstyle.

[GinKenshin]

1 minute ago, (PS4)keilnealquan said:

Maybe there's a  problem with your game? I've never seen him do that before.

maybe they fixed it, I never played him because of that, but that problem kept showing up even when they said they fixed it. I got my codex full so I don't really need him anymore anyway, plus he's ugly >.> 

[Hypernaut1]

Only death cube and shade can be considered broken. I find the other sentinels far more useful than carrier.

I honestly that if people were forced to not use carrier for a week, they'd realise how useful the other sentinels are and how much vacuum doesn't truly make a huge difference (for most builds)

Either way, I like the idea of vacuum as a mod. Right now there is barely any decision making when modding a sentinel. 

Edited September 19, 2016 by Hypernaut1

[(PSN)keilnealquan]

1 minute ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Only death cube and shade can be considered broken. I find the other sentinels far more useful than carrier.

I honestly that if people were forced to boy use carrier for a week, they'd realise how useful the other sentinels are and how much vacuum doesn't truly make a huge difference (for most builds)

I doubt that. People would most likely just go to their Kubrows/Kavats. Probably most likely will go to a Chesa. 

[--UMBRA--Klokw3rk]

nerfing OP/game breaking frames sure

nerfing QoL mods no, thats not right

 

splitting into 3 mods is side stepping the issue completely sentinels are unbalanced the ease of use generated by vacuum trumps minor CC and some half decent special affects and it leaves kavats and kubrows missing some much needed love

in short make vacuum universal, rework chesa and carrier and watch the community use a large range of companions over the 80% carrier as it stands. a statistic like that should have alarm bells ringing and splitting into 3 is not solving anything

[AzureTerra]

The Smart and Sensible Solution is to Unbind Vacuum from Carrier and make it a general Sentinel Mod, Sadly this is DE we are talking about so Smart/Sensible is not a option.

[Xzorn]

DE: "We want to remove staple mods to create more diversity."

-Adds 3 melee staple mods, Adds 2-3 Sentinel Staple mods-

*Clap*

 

All I'm going to do is remove Steel Fiber and Fired Up in place of the new mods on every Sentinel. That's if I even use the others.

I don't see the point in this....

Wouldn't you guys get more money if you made it universal to all?

I will NEVER use a Kavat or Kubrow and NEVER invest in skins or attachments for them.

It makes sense from a QoL and a Business perspective that you make Vacuum universal to all companions.

[Trentiel]

Of course some players want universal vacuum. What interests me more... is why some players and devs don't want it.

The reason players don't want universal vacuum: They don't want to pick up energy and ammo when they're only down a small amount, wasting most of the pick-up. So this needs to be addressed.

My suggestion: Flexible energy / health / ammo cap. If you pick up extra, it raises your max, temporarily. Just like those syndicate buffs, but constrained by the amount that overflows from one drop. Once you're maxed, no more pick-ups. It wouldn't stack, it wouldn't be exploitable. It'd be just a nice small bonus.

The reason the Devs don't want universal vacuum: Needing to pick up energy / health / ammo refill drops was meant to be a limit on our power and resources mid combat. However this limit was so effective, it made the Carrier so favorable that it outclassed the other companions by an internet-mile.

My Suggestion: If it really must be that Vacuum is broken up into 3 mods. These 4 steps would give the game-play a smoother feel without giving us universal OP pick-up range.
A: Make the default pick-up range larger. An average between standing right on top of it and the current vacuum range would work. Maybe base it on the Warframes rank?
B: Give these new mods to all companion types, sentinel, kubrow, and kavat. With their specialized pick-up range larger than the current vacuum range.
C: Maybe give all Kubrow and Kavat the ability to pick up items for us. Perhaps, with a timer delay. So that they don't play keep-away with our mods, orokin cells, or sniper ammo.
D: Fix that issue where other players vacuum can effect your drops when it's kind of laggy. This is an under-acknowledged glitch.

Edited September 19, 2016 by Trentiel

[Racter]

Runs of this length are not generally done in a way that allows your Carrier to get shot at, let alone die. However, they fixed the loot accumulation bug crashing games by putting a limit on number of spawned objects at once. It didn't work initially but the last long run I did we had no issues so I'm assuming it works now. For those unaware, it wasn't actually the resources/mods at all, but hours of ammo piled up. The old work around was bringing a high ROF weapon with an ammo mutation, just to eat up the ammo drops.

[DSpite]

9 hours ago, (XB1)Black Mouse said:

I was just pondering on this. When the crew and I were doing long runs we would DC often. I mean really long runs, 300 wave defenses or 4 hour and up survivals. One of our members reached out to DE. We where told by DE to pick up as much loot as we can to keep the game from lagging or DCing on long run.

Will not having a vacuum that picks up all break long runs? Will 8 hour survivals and hundreds of waves just crash the game?

Thoughts anyone?

Wow. That's the first thing that worried you?

So glad that Nullifiers now stop you farming that long. Why DE allows this game to just be a Tower Defense clone for people is beyond me.

[RavingRoman]

In my personal opinion, it will not break the long runs, but not having vacuum ends up making them take longer and also gets you prone to getting killed with unnecessary movements and time spent jogging over the drops. People farm for specific resources; and more often than not, these are rare ones like say Neural Sensors, Argon Crystals. Some players if not many have the misfortune of not having those drop very much or at all. So they need the vacuum so they do not miss that specific resource when it drops from an enemy or a container they so happen to destroy. Honestly, vacuum helps me a lot with sustaining my ammo. Though it seems the new carrier precept will help me with that. For those who do not use efficiency builds, grabbing energy is a matter between keep going, or just dying. And it would suck for most people to die because they didn't make the last two inches to grab an energy or health orb.

[Volinus7]

Mirage can clear loots on the floor iirc.

[Xzorn]

55 minutes ago, Trentiel said:

Of course some players want universal vacuum. What interests me more... is why some players and devs don't want it.

The reason players don't want universal vacuum: They don't want to pick up energy and ammo when they're only down a small amount, wasting most of the pick-up. So this needs to be addressed.

A lot of the ammo efficiency argument can be mitigated by the player too.

Don't reload your first mag right away. Dump some ammo. Wait till your half out, swap weapons. The efficiency isn't perfect but it's a lot better than people want to claim.

The Health/Energy argument is basically non-existent these days outside something like Nekros with the additions of Zenurik, Medi-Ray and even Life Strike. Orbs are kinda pointless.

If pickups were meant as a limitation to player power mid combat the Devs removed it all by themselves by adding broken abilities and ample amounts of enemies that fall over in waves.

[Swbn19]

This kind of action that they are doing makes me think that their quality of fixes and improvements are really dropping..

[(PSN)SwagSmasha]

If I've said it once someone else has said it a thousand times.

Vacuum is the greatest. If you dont like it thats fine but at at the end of the day people will use what they want and most people use carrier.

[Azrael]

1 hour ago, Trentiel said:

The reason players don't want universal vacuum: They don't want to pick up energy and ammo when they're only down a small amount, wasting most of the pick-up. So this needs to be addressed.

The problem with this argument is that the weapons that have the greatest need for ammo tend to get ammo mutation installed on them, and don't need to conserve ammo drops. Many weapons simply don't run out of ammo, and weapons like the kohm need so much that so long as you don't reload too early there's no reason to conserve ammo drops. Personally I have never spent time worrying about ammo drops, and I rarely meet players who do.

Energy is different, but since drops de-spawn if you don't pick them up, it's hard to get much use out of saving energy drops.

 

2 hours ago, Trentiel said:

The reason the Devs don't want universal vacuum: Needing to pick up energy / health / ammo refill drops was meant to be a limit on our power and resources mid combat.

While they may have meant to do this, it makes no sense. Basing the game's difficulty on picking up drops makes for a horribly boring game and frustrating game. It would be better to just let people have their drops and focus on making the actual gameplay challenging.

[Rapid]

Quiette Shy sums up my thoughts and her proposed solution I fully support. Innate vacuum ability on Warframes and Archwings/Sharkwings will allow for greater use of any type of companions. Vacuum has always been a quality of life, and really should be a core mechanic that will benefit not only veteran but new players. As someone who is Mastery Rank 22, I no longer need to tell a new player to get Carrier because of Vacuum.

Splitting Vacuum into 3 mods will only inadvertently limit the players choice, since we will need to fill 3 mod slots on our sentinels to do what 1 vacuum mod once did. DE has said countless times that they really wish to alleviate "mandatory" mods in favor of more interesting mod combinations / builds. (ie. The Serration argument) By splitting vacuum into 3 mods it is not actually adding diversity and enhancing different play style, but just adding more filler mods to a single build. The vacuum game mechanic now cost 3 mod slots, but more to the point takes away mod slots that could be used in other ways.

Edited September 19, 2016 by Rapidx

[Troll_Logic]

2 hours ago, Trentiel said:

The reason players don't want universal vacuum: They don't want to pick up energy and ammo when they're only down a small amount, wasting most of the pick-up. So this needs to be addressed.

That is ridiculous.  How often does it happen?  And when it does, does it really matter?  It isn't like the ammo pickup is 200 rounds or the energy pickup is 150.

Yeah, I'm sure there is a small amount of leakage, but it's insignificant.

I'm just happen to be replying to you about this.  I've seen a few other players, probably the same ones, complain about this.

In my opinion, it's complaining about something that really doesn't exist and doesn't affect the player or the game to any meaningful degree.

[Troll_Logic]

55 minutes ago, Lord_Azrael said:

The problem with this argument is that the weapons that have the greatest need for ammo tend to get ammo mutation installed on them, and don't need to conserve ammo drops. Many weapons simply don't run out of ammo, and weapons like the kohm need so much that so long as you don't reload too early there's no reason to conserve ammo drops. Personally I have never spent time worrying about ammo drops, and I rarely meet players who do.

No kidding.  Many players equip stupidly.  They don't want to use ammo mutation.  They don't want to use vitality or redirection.  They want to spend the absolute least amount of time building a weapon or warframe and barely mod it.  I was in a sortie today with a nova and I think he had 300 health and 300 shields.  He dropped 5 times a wave.  And not only did he drop 5 times a wave, his dumb butt kept charging right into them.

Oh, AND........

HE KEPT CASTING SPEED MP.

He was a winner all right.

If I have a weapon like the soma, kohm, I think even boltor, and other hoses that I want to shoot the entire mission, I simply slap my prime ammo mutation on them.

The argument that 99.9999999% of warframe players shouldn't have universal vacuum because someone will waste 20 round is horse hockey.

AND

No, there shouldn't be a option for it either.

[Trentiel]

20 minutes ago, Lord_Azrael said:

The problem with this argument is that the weapons that have the greatest need for ammo tend to get ammo mutation installed on them, and don't need to conserve ammo drops. Many weapons simply don't run out of ammo, and weapons like the kohm need so much that so long as you don't reload too early there's no reason to conserve ammo drops. Personally I have never spent time worrying about ammo drops, and I rarely meet players who do.

It's not an argument I use. It's an argument I've had used against me when I've suggested universal vacuum. And it is a real concern for people who use bows, because 1 arrow shot = 1 arrow missing from your pool. With no reloading involved. Again, it's a small issue that puts those few people off from playing Carrier.

I'm trying to pitch a solution that is agreeable to all players, not just majority players who use carrier. Which involves listening to the arguments I don't personally care about.

 

15 minutes ago, Lord_Azrael said:

While they may have meant to do this, it makes no sense. Basing the game's difficulty on picking up drops makes for a horribly boring game and frustrating game. It would be better to just let people have their drops and focus on making the actual gameplay challenging.

It makes sense if you knew what Warframe was like back when Sentinels and Carrier were first introduced. This is pre-parkour 2.0. This was back when "coptering" was an unintended glitch in the melee combat system that allowed you to move quickly, but was never intended. Carriers design and the default pick-up radius are from a time when this game was kinda-sorta Left4Dead in space. Yes things have evolved since then. We used to have limited mobility, lower power creep, and more measure and deliberation in every attack.

What I was trying to do was acknowledge the original intent behind limited pick-up radius and vacuum as a power-up.

Besides, Universal Vacuum is still a limit on drop pick-up. On a scale from "pick up only whats directly under your feet" to "all drops everywhere immediately are in your possession" Vacuum lies somewhere in between. And trust me, there are people out there asking "why do we even have drops anyway?"

The question Is: Can we have an increased default pick-up radius? Is Vacuums reach far enough? Could it be toned down a little? Is there room for new mods that modify the way item pick up works. IE. Increase range for particular item types over others. This is the conversation I want to have.

[Trentiel]

11 minutes ago, Troll_Logic said:

That is ridiculous.  How often does it happen?  And when it does, does it really matter?  It isn't like the ammo pickup is 200 rounds or the energy pickup is 150.

Yeah, I'm sure there is a small amount of leakage, but it's insignificant.

I'm just happen to be replying to you about this.  I've seen a few other players, probably the same ones, complain about this.

In my opinion, it's complaining about something that really doesn't exist and doesn't affect the player or the game to any meaningful degree.

See my reply to Lord_Azrael. it happens with Bows. Because 1 shot-fired = 1 arrow missing from you pool. No magazine or reloading involved.

I said it was a small issue.

My suggestion to solve this small issue has ZERO to do with how DE handles the Vacuum issue. I was pointing out, the only reason there are detractors is because of this problem, and there's a solution to that problem that has zero bearing on the future of item pick-up radius. Universal Vacuum or not. It's something worth addressing.

[Azrael]

7 minutes ago, Trentiel said:

It's not an argument I use. It's an argument I've had used against me when I've suggested universal vacuum. And it is a real concern for people who use bows, because 1 arrow shot = 1 arrow missing from your pool. With no reloading involved. Again, it's a small issue that puts those few people off from playing Carrier.

Fair enough, although when I mained the rakta cernos I didn't have a problem with ammo. It's true that bows are about the closest thing in the game to having a genuine problem with wasting drops.

Still, removing the vacuum mod has always been possible. Even people asking for innate vacuum to warframes also ask for an option to turn it off. So I'm not sure why people are concerned. Nobody is trying to force people to use vacuum, they are only asking for more access to it.

 

11 minutes ago, Trentiel said:

Besides, Universal Vacuum is still a limit on drop pick-up. On a scale from "pick up only whats directly under your feet" to "all drops everywhere immediately are in your possession" Vacuum lies somewhere in between. And trust me, there are people out there asking "why do we even have drops anyway?"

I do agree that infinite range vacuum would allow some exploitative gameplay. I'm okay with the current range, I just don't want to be limited to one companion in order to make use of it. Although one suggestion I kinda liked was making it so that when someone picks up a mod, everyone in xp range gets the mod. It would fix having mods drop in the floor, at very least. After all, once a mod drops, you've beaten the rng. There's no need for more struggle to get that mod, you've already earned it. not getting it because of floor geometry is inexcusable.