Dev Stream 80: Carrier Changes feedback thread [Megathread]

[Pillagius]

On 9/16/2016 at 9:22 PM, DonGheddo said:

What we're playing with right now is this idea: Vacuum will be transformed into 3 new mods that can be used by any sentinel, with 3 different types of Vacuum:

· Health and Energy

· Credits and Ammo

· Mods, Endo, and Resources/Miscellaneous

1 - There are just too many mods as is, and making room for 3 mods to mimic effectivenes of curently present mod is just unafordable leasure.

2 - what about Kubrows and Kavats? Wasn't the initial idea that ALL companions would have "vacuum"!?

3 - Why Vacuum even has to be a mod?

Edited September 18, 2016 by BitterPill
Less pointless rage.

[Arkvold]

9 hours ago, taiiat said:

It creates a slippery slope of toxicity - in every game that has it. most big ones that feature it, end up removing it later as some people will use it to avoid playing with Players with the goal of forcing higher Skilled Players out of their sessions, for example.

opting to prefer to play with Players works, but blocking out Players willy nilly doesn't.

This makes absolutely no sense.

I don't see why people would use a blocking function to 'force higher skilled players out of their sessions.'  Unless you want to solo (in which case there's a matchmaking option for that, no need to use the block function), there's no point to forcing out anyone who's 'higher skilled' unless they're also an elitist or a demanding chump that demands that everyone play 'their meta.'  If anything you want higher skilled players in your sessions as they're less likely to be leeches and can help carry the team.  If a 'higher skilled' player finds themselves without games to play because of the block function, then they should probably consider what got them blocked by so many people, because it probably wasn't their level of skill.

Maybe you're thinking of people blocking others because they want to contribute?  Like an MR3 Volt in his first Exterminate blocking an MR20 Ember Prime who runs the mission for him?  Well keep in mind - he's shooting himself in the foot.  Not only is he blocking someone who he could learn from and who is giving him an easy win, but he's also ensuring that, down the line, he won't be matched with that person in missions of their skill level.  So when he, say, goes into his first pub sortie a half-dozen MR down the road, that's one less person he might get to carry him when he needs it.  Blocking's a double-edged sword in that respect.

The idea that someone could wind up 'forced out of games' and be unable to play multiplayer unless they are a colossal chump is pretty ridiculous, actually.  Warframe's not exactly lacking for a playerbase; there's plenty of fish, as the saying goes, even if a bunch of people block you for frivolous reasons.  Plus, if they do block you for frivolous reasons, did you even really want to play with them?  These people have not just removed you from their games, they've effectively removed themselves from your games going forward, ensuring that over time, you're more likely to be matched with people with attitudes, play styles and personalities that are compatible with yours.

Being able to avoid sessions that have problematic players in the process of matchmaking would be nothing but beneficial.  Being able to block leeches, AFKers, demanding elitists, and others from being auto-matched with you gives you insurance that you won't lose or suffer during any given mission more than once because of that person.  If a chronic, habitual leech finds himself without games to play?  That's no skin off my nose - maybe they should've thought of that before acting like a dingus and being a non-participant in the missions they join.

The ability to avoid being matched into games with people you've blocked would be a fine way to let players avoid leeches and other problematic players, and curb their behavior since they would eventually find themselves with nobody to leech off of.  Not only would they have to participate to continue progressing, but they'd also have to do it solo until people came into the community that didn't have them blocked.  They'd create their own punishment.  In such an environment, universal, inherent vacuum or even just being granted your loot at the moment it drops would be perfectly fine.

Edited September 18, 2016 by Arkvold

[ENGINEEEEER]

17 minutes ago, BitterPill said:

1 - There are just too many mods as is, and making room for 3 mods to mimic effectivenes of curently present mod is just unafordable leasure.

2 - what about Kubrows and Kavats? Wasn't the initial idea that ALL companions would have "vacuum"!?

3 - Why Vacuum even has to be a mod?

#2 is my biggest concern. I usually use my kavat or kubrow over carrier and I'll deal with it regardless but it'd be nice to have this effect be innate. 

Additionally we should really talk about archwing vacuum. Imo, It should be greatly increased but I think mods should auto loot in something like a 50m radius or shared. Archwing mod acquisition is seriously bad now and not being able to see or grab the mods is a lot of the reason why. 

[IRVoidGuru]

Plz take my words into consideration here because i think this is important.

Life support drops should be obtainable by all 3 mods, Survival is my favorite game type and to be honest i only plan to use the Hp and Energy orb vacuum mod, i think it would be really annoying to have to switch to a new config for a companion just to add on another vacuum (if you let more then one at a time) or Lose my HP/ energy vacuum( if you cant have more than one at a time) just for one drop type that is Vital (Literally) to one mission type

[TaylorsContraction]

6 hours ago, Dell_the_Engie said:

-snip-

While I personally agree there are people who don't like vacuum because it wastes health / energy / ammo in certain circumstances.  I'd venture a  guess that many of  said players are at a  point where they don't care about resources  or mods  anymore.

[(PSN)Elvenbane]

Nice R&C footage showing how the "Orokin Gravity Well Generator" should function. Reminded me I still have to play the last one.

[taiiat]

1 hour ago, Arkvold said:

This makes absolutely no sense.

it doesn't have to make sense or not make sense - it's still been a problem in other games. games with larger playerbases than Warframe.

[TaylorsContraction]

We already share a resource on pick up, credits. I would prefer that when an item is picked up it similarly goes to everyone's inventory like credits do. Then you don't need to waypoint loot constantly because if I picked up an orokin cell, everyone did. This would only work for loot, not resources like health / energy / ammo / resource  boosters.

This would make gmag good again and looting would be more streamlined. This can be limited by affinity range to deal with leechers and afk'ers such that if you're out of affinity range, you have to pick up the item yourself (not that it's gone for good).

[AZAG0TH]

Just going to chime in and say that, like most here, I really don't like the idea of splitting vacuum into 3 mods... at all.  I see no benefit and all it will do is make those 3 mods mandatory for all sentinels - limiting build options for no reason.  When I heard Steve and Scott talking about it on the devstream I was excited - and then, a mere second later saddened.

I would LOVE it if vacuum was just built in to all warframes - no mods, just a universal passive.  If that can't happen please just keep it 1 mod - and I would love it if that mod was for companions, not just sentinels - it might make me actually use my kubrows and eventually kavats other than just leveling them for affinity.

As it stands, splitting this into three mods, isn't in any way a QoL improvement.  Quite the opposite as far as I am concerned.

[BlackCoMerc]

15 hours ago, DAWGUNITALPHA said:

Now, before I get into the meat of my post I want to talk about drop systems in other games. I've played online games for ages, I've watched as general game design ideals and philosiphy has changed to streamline the most basic parts of gameplay. If nothing else gamers are a group of people with short attention spans. This is not to say they're dumb, but if one game starts to feel like a chore to play there will always be competition ready to pick up the players who drop your game. People like to be rewarded the most for the least effort put in. You're free to call it lazy, but if it weren't true then people wouldn't run min/max builds designed to make even the hardest missions embarrassingly easy. So how does this relate to drops and looting? Well most MMOs over the years have steadily worked on phasing out the whole process. While most classical RPG loot systems had you click a corpse, open the corpse's inventory and pick what you want, as the years and console generations went on it progressed to clicking on a corpse and having it just disgorge everything it had, to everything simply being handed to you automatically. That's not to say every single game follows this trend as there are and will always be outliers to any given trend in design. But as a whole, looting in games is moving towards keeping the flow of games unbroken as the majority of players didn't like having to loot individual bodies, or sort through endless amounts of vendor trash which existed solely to sell when the game could have just awarded them the money anyway. It was tedium. It can generally be agreed upon that if your game relies on pointless tedium and padding then you're doing something wrong.

"But Warframe isn't an RPG!" you can easily say. And it's an argument you see a lot. However it does have "RPG Elements" which is a vague enough term even games like Call of Duty use. Most games with "RPG Elements" follow similar trends of streamlining their design so as not to interrupt the base gameplay. To compare Warframe to a game I feel is fairly similar to it at its core, Destiny. Destiny is big on the running, shooting and loot collecting though it definitely has a more FPS bend to it where as Warframe has a more hack and slash feeling. The reason I specifically compare them is that even Destiny nailed this down. If, upon finishing your mission, any items in the field haven't been picked up in Destiny, you get them dropped into your inventory as long as you didn't leave the mission before completing it. It is an amazing decision not to have to worry about missing a rare item that fell off a cliff, or that flew somewhere you couldn't see in the middle of an intense firefight because you can just enjoy the gameplay knowing once you finish the mission, it's still yours. Warframe, however, if I'm busy killing guys and a rare resource goes flying across a room I might never see it. Possibly no one on our team. How many argon have we mistakenly missed because it vanished in the middle of an intense firefight, never to be seen or picked up?

Which brings me to my second point. Even with Vacuum, warframe's loot system destroys the team based gameplay unless you're playing with a competent group of people you know well. Defense is especially bad about this. I can't count the number of times I've been left as the only person defending the pod while all three of my rando teammates ran off to all the furthest corners of the map to farm solo. I never  saw any of the items they got. They never mark anything. If anything rare or interesting dropped, no one would ever know but the selfish players. But if I dare step away for a second because I didn't want to be punished for protecting the objective, you can be I'd be the one yelled at once the capsule started to die. Even Vacuum doesn't alleviate this problem, countless times I've had a match end while I was mere feet from a rare resource or a mystery mod I will never know the contents of. The personalized reward lists in no way promotes or even encourages people to team up and help one another. Random strangers on the internet in the vast majority of interactions are not going to help eachother, time and time again online games have taught most developers this. Why is DE continuing to punish the few people who want to actually play the game, but reward the people who constantly go against the flow of the group and selfishly try to drag everyone else down?

Forcing every player to manually walk over every single item is just going to make it even less fun and interesting to play the game with other people. I know I'm sure not going to want to do corpus missions with Johnny Bumbles over there killing all the oxium osprey in a tunnel far enough away that if I tried to get any oxium myself, the objective would die. I won't even be able to just quickly dash over there anymore, then run back because now I'd have to stop and make sure I'd walked over every. single. item. Why, in a game all about the pacing and flow, do you want to do something that further stops and disrupts the groove of the mission? This is why I propose an automatic loot system once the mission ends. No more missing mods, no more lost re sources and no more lone wolves standing in hallways hoarding everything while the rest of us finish the mission for them, then wait another minute for the timer to run out. We get what we earn.

Slow. Clap.

Well said. Forget Vacuum. If it dropped on the mission and we didn't pick it up, just put it in our inventory at the end of the mission.

Brilliant. Literally no reason not to do this.

 

[ShiraHagane]

Since DE said what they thought vacuum should be, and there's a thread almost entirely filled with people saying that's a horrible idea (which is not what I'm saying) I thought I'd ask what people want instead, through democracy

http://www.strawpoll.me/11252230 (old)

http://www.strawpoll.me/11252395 (new)

I tried to include every opinion that I could find

Edited September 18, 2016 by ShiraHagane

[DEADSHOT456]

Is it possible to add the option "Innate on all companions or sentinels"?

I would want that since that with make Companions very desirable, along with whatever extra abilities the companion offers.

[SpeedOfLightPuncher]

A mod for all companions meaning kavats, kubrows and sentinels 

[ranks21]

it should stay the way it is and all kavats kubrows and sentinels have and retain their unique precepts>> DE should focus on more important things...

[DeMonkey]

7 minutes ago, DEADSHOT456 said:

Is it possible to add the option "Innate on all companions or sentinels"?

I would want that since that with make Companions very desirable, along with whatever extra abilities the companion offers.

Not innate. Something like this should be optional because there is an opposing viewpoint to this. 

Having it as a mod is fine, not sure about it being for Kavats/Kubrows though. What are they going to do, breathe in really really heavily?

[ShiraHagane]

2 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Not innate. Something like this should be optional because there is an opposing viewpoint to this. 

Having it as a mod is fine, not sure about it being for Kavats/Kubrows though. What are they going to do, breathe in really really heavily?

this is democracy, I can't not include an opinion, however much I disagree

[WERElektro]

I found the idea they mentioned in the devstream quite acceptable.

Vacuum as it is now IS. OP. Just look at how many players are using carrier compared to other sentinels. And DE knows the exact ratio I'm sure. And now people complain because their op little toy gets nerfed. I am also using carrier.... for the reasons stated above. Why wouldn't I? Why wouldn't anybody else?

But I can deal with changes. And I am really looking forward to actually  decide for a new favourite sentinel... instead of just maxing them for mr , because they couldn't compete with carrier's vacuum anyway.

tldr,: carrier/vacuum is overused and op., And I am tempted to write "deal with it", but I know that won't help anyone, So I don't...

...

ooops

[DeMonkey]

2 minutes ago, ShiraHagane said:

this is democracy, I can't not include an opinion, however much I disagree

Technically this isn't actually a democracy. There isn't even freedom of speech here.

If you want to get technical, DE and moderators are dictators. I appreciate the good intentions though of course.

[ShiraHagane]

Just now, DeMonkey said:

Technically this isn't actually a democracy. There isn't even freedom of speech here.

If you want to get technical, DE and moderators are dictators. I appreciate the good intentions though of course.

I'm just talking about the strawpoll, I know I can't do anything to Warframe, even if every single player voted for one option on this poll, but hopefully DE will learn something from this

[Sannidor]

Plan to split Vacuum mod into three will probably mean we will be able to only equip one, even on Carrier.

Respecting forum rules, I can only say that it's an insanely awful idea, exact opposite of what community has been asking for months.

We had to literally beg for vacuum in Archwing and it is broken again or nerfed, I don't care about that mode until it gets playable.

Another "unfixable" glitch are items hovering in mid-air, unwilling to drop on the floor. It's not related to internet lag, happens to both hosts and rest of team so Carrier becomes another way of making this bug bearable.

Vacuum sentinel should not only be improved in terms of his sucking range but all the other sentinels need buffs!

As for innate attraction on frames, it's such an obvious quality of life change to implement - one damn meter universal absorption of drops. JUST DO IT DE. 

[Multicom-EN-]

Do you? What are your thoughts?

Keep it civil

 

 

[ScorpioneITA]

 

[ShiraHagane]

shameless self promotion

Edited September 18, 2016 by ShiraHagane

[DEADSHOT456]

13 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Not innate. Something like this should be optional because there is an opposing viewpoint to this. 

Ya, not innate. I did not think of that I suppose. I mean I would like it to be innate, but it is true. Some may not like it.

I wonder if DE would make it a toggle passive for sentinels. That would be nice. But chances are they would go for a mod. I am fine with that as long as Scott does not split it in 3. That I think would be awful, for almost everyone.

16 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Having it as a mod is fine, not sure about it being for Kavats/Kubrows though. What are they going to do, breathe in really really heavily?

Oh, boy, you are funny. xD

No heavy breathing then, lol.

[DeMonkey]

Just now, DEADSHOT456 said:

Oh, boy, you are funny. xD

No heavy breathing then, lol.

Good, because someone's poor Kubrow is bound to be asthmatic...