The Vacuum Within: Hotfix 1

[Ogarra_Remaellus]

To everyone who is leaving because of TVW and the delay of TWW...

There are many flavors, but you chose to be salty.

[PETI258]

5 minutes ago, MrPyrotheNarwhal said:

You do realise that "new players" don't start with carrier in the old pickup system, and that "new players" still don't. This will not effect them in the least. By the time you actually get a sentinel (IF they get carrier as their first), most will know how the game works, therefore not even being a "new player". If they happen to not get carrier as their first, this would benefit them even more so. See where I'm going with this? Not to pick you out or be rude, but don't use "new players" as an excuse. On a second note, how does each weapon that comes out impact how "grindy" they game is for "new players"? On a third note, the new carrier HELPS with ammo economy by quite a large margin, and running out of ammo doesn't mean the game is the worst in the world, just means you need to pay attention to your ammo and not spray it around 24/7.

You do know that the "new player" is in a different part of the sentence.
It will when they get to the point like mr4-8 when they want to get more weapons warframes to try out but they are lack or resources and for the old timers had the 12m radius loot pickup they have to settle with 6m.

Second: Just look at how many weapons there are in game and how much resource do they cost if you don't have the plat to buy them all.

Third: Ammo economy? Have you looked at a map after killing 10 enemies it is full of ammo drops.
And end game is nowhere so there is no point to go more then 20 wave or 20 mins you just simply restart so it should be more then enough ammo that you start with.

 

[Dailus]

More than a balance, carrier was butchered. But everyones knows that by now.

I will just say or give a suggestion about this matter. Give ALL Sentinels 15meters diameter or if you like 7.5meters radius of vacumming.

The gameplay will suffer a huge benefit from it, instead of being chasing all the freaking map for resources or vital supports even if you stand in front of them and your "universal vacuum" don't work.

[ConstantinPhoenix]

Already Know how to make people collect everything themselves and in the approach to each box.
Carrier invented community, and [DE] do not forget about it!

[lodoubt]

I was expecting some salt but this is beyond what I could have imagined. For what its worth I think it's good that what was CLEARLY a problem is finally being looked at.

I want to point out that given I started playing during Update 8, prior to Carrier's release in Update 10, Dethcube and Wyrm were actually considered *good* at the time. Even among those of us who don't habitually use Carrier, I'd invite you to consider how strange that seems now. Community standards shift and change, and constantly buffing everything to generate balance because any nerfs to the current meta result in a whingefest is a pretty poor way of handling things and is in fact what got us to the point that Nullifiers, Bursa, Eximi and Manics were *necessary* additions to the game, and even then result in an emergent difficulty of play that is far less than what used to exist.

Eventually people will get used to whatever is decided upon, as it stands there is simply no set of remotely reasonable buffs that could have been given to other Sentinels to put them on an equal use case footing with the convenience of the 12m vacuum radius. Even if Dethcubes beam was buffed to be 10,000 damage or something, it still wouldn't see use except where for some reason that is the only way to kill an enemy (IE by newbies who don't have good weapons and mods yet, just like now), but right now you can easily mod weapons to deal better DPS than Dethcube would accomplish with that.

By accepting that Carrier is going to be nerfed *somehow*, we at least open up some design space. Ammo Case is a good start. As a replacement, it has utility. People may not see it yet because the meta hasn't had time to adapt, but there are definitely powerful weapons that sit outside of the meta right now because their ammo efficiency is too poor. This is also effectively a stealth nerf to Mag, because again, gameplay meta is a dynamic process, the availability of one thing can effect the worth of another. I see a lot of people who have been spoiled by Carrier finally confronted with something loosely approximating the actual core gameplay of Warframe that was there all along and completely losing it.

DE clearly hasn't decided this is their final decision, but they've committed to some kind of solution. Maybe we'll see carrier's precept upgraded to include +0.5m vacuum per level leading to 9m vacuum for Carrier vs. 6m for other sentinels. Who knows! But honestly I think everyone needs to calm down and remember that they didn't always have Carrier.

Edited October 6, 2016 by lodoubt
clarification of core premise

[_ginger_rage_]

You guys really need to put vacuum back to 12 meters or at least include a mod for all sentinels to increase it to its original range.

The community didn't want a nerfed innate ability.

All we wanted was for the vacuum precept to be equipable to every sentinel.

The vacuum mod was not the problem, only its exclusiveness to carrier.

I will continue to use carrier/carrier prime until such a point where all sentinels can have a 12 meter vacuum in protest.

[The-Xennon]

5 hours ago, Babellon said:

sorry, maybe I'm confused, what is this radius<>diameter thing? Radius is the diameter around you which a thing happens is it not? As in , the radius of vacuum is 6m diameter around you. honest question, maybe I've been out of school to long, so please explain.

 

Radius is the distance from the centre of a circle to the edge. 
Diameter is the distance from 1 edge to the opposite edge. 
So a 6m radius means that you are the centre of the circle and stuff is picked up when it is from 0m to 6m from you.

[MokutoBunshi]

Im gonna say EXACTLY what most of us are saying.... " 6 meter Loot Vacuum " 6 METERS? WHY? THAT IS HALF OF WHAT WE HAD about 20% as much.......why?

You know what....:

 

]\'[

[MokutoBunshi]

Here is a question.... if vacuum is on all sentinels but not all warframes...can we have a refund on our Chesa kubros?...you know, the ones that "bring loot"

 

]\'[

[--RV--LadySpiderwick]

DE can the playerbase get an explanation for the trade off of range from 12m to 6m? Having innate vacuum on all sentinels is nice but the range I don't understand why.

[KunoUshinawa]

Just now, MokutoBunshi said:

Here is a question.... if vacuum is on all sentinels but not all warframes...can we have a refund on our Chesa kubros?...you know, the ones that "bring loot"

I tossed retrieve immediately, I was like: I can get my own loot, I want you to kill things and open lockers! lol

Though this update does make the Chesa mod even less appealing.

[Didoguard]

My god, this update just showed how spoiled the community is. Few meters nerf is nothing compared to the fact that now all sentinels are somehow equal in that matter. They finally gave us a real chance and reason to use all sentinels that suits our play style and not be forced to use only one. I've seen a lot of changes in the years ( I am playing the game since open beta start ). This change was requested and long time postponed. It is finally here and yet most of the spoiled brads whine on the forums. This only shows how bad the community has become. The inability to even have logical thought behind their arguments is horrifying. 

DE, keep up with the good work and ignore the &#036;&amp;*&amp;*#(%&amp; requests for 12m range on everything. This is warframe - not a vacuum cleaner simulator game. One sentinel dominated all due to a simple utility feature in it. The change is awesome and pretty much introduced greater variety to a section of the game where Carrier was ruler by default. We are ninjas, movement has so much emphasis here. Whole systems were reworked for it. Don't make the game another tower defense 3rd person shooter just because someone is lazy to move few meters more. 

[CrispyCIean]

2 minutes ago, Didoguard said:

My god, this update just showed how spoiled the community is. Few meters nerf is nothing compared to the fact that now all sentinels are somehow equal in that matter. They finally gave us a real chance and reason to use all sentinels that suits our play style and not be forced to use only one. I've seen a lot of changes in the years ( I am playing the game since open beta start ). This change was requested and long time postponed. It is finally here and yet most of the spoiled brads whine on the forums. This only shows how bad the community has become. The inability to even have logical thought behind their arguments is horrifying. 

DE, keep up with the good work and ignore the &#036;&amp;*&amp;*#(%&amp; requests for 12m range on everything. This is warframe - not a vacuum cleaner simulator game. One sentinel dominated all due to a simple utility feature in it. The change is awesome and pretty much introduced greater variety to a section of the game where Carrier was ruler by default. We are ninjas, movement has so much emphasis here. Whole systems were reworked for it. Don't make the game another tower defense 3rd person shooter just because someone is lazy to move few meters more. 

Everyone is happy about vacuum on all sentinels, but no one asked for the nerf, no one asked for the effective range to be reduced by 80ish%. The community is upset that DE didn't communicate about the true issue that people wanted, and instead of bringing simple QOL changes, they decided to bring on a nerf that was not needed, not asked for, and not even useful to anyone in any way. You seem to have taken the arguments against the nerf totally the wrong way.

[Nosferagon]

Thanks!. Can you guys make a resource cosmetics bundle?

[Death_Master_]

Vacuum within? Great idea but 6m sucks in both meanings.

I have a small tweak to offer: Leave 6m for reactants/medallions/ayatan stars that were not picked up automatically and make 9-12 range for everything else.

 

[F8ted]

Since the release of Kubrows I haven't much used Carrier, nor sentinels for that matter. Before however, I used solely the Carrier as it was a nice fix for the loot system. It actually surprises me to see how many people claim to be fond of it. Before this came up as a nice distraction from the update delays I was paying very little mind to the Carrier, and of course the rest of the sentinels. With all this said I cannot believe this is ultimately how it was handled. It really seems the design team was adamant about receiving their pound of flesh for giving people universal(sentinel) vacuum. I expected no one to care that most sentinels received half the vacuum, but you decided to hit the "well i'll still play my carrier anyway" crowd (~80% of players) where it hurts. The whole reason they were using a companion is now half as effective._{13% or something like that cuz math.} 

My dogs, cats and I don't really feel like we got an update, but you managed some pretty record negativity on this one. When first proposed as 3 different mods for sentinels people said: no make it 12m inherent for everyone. When given a quick heads up that this was dropping soon and you changed it to a passive(no mod) 5m radius people said: no make it 12m inherent for everyone. Now after release people are saying: WHY WOULD YOU NERF MY COMPANION I ONLY PLAY BECAUSE OF IT I HATE LOOTING? Can't say this wasn't easily predictable. 

It's not so much that this will at all affect my gameplay, it's that this is once again an issue that was plainly clear the desires of your customers and you went out of your way to avoid it. People wanted an easier, more streamlined void system. We got dozens of relics that need to be farmed in arbitrary locations at terrible odds. People wanted a more ergonomic and user friendly fusion system. It was at least delivered, but with a much higher credit cost after credit rewards were drastically cut. People wanted a new starmap, so we rolled out the old one with a graphic update, and switched around some of the missions. People wanted a better PvP system (well not many), and we got football. People wanted more out of Archwing, and we got a vortex tunnel. Now with vacuum, you basically cut it in half, gave it to everybody, and hope it convinces people to use something that they have already maxxed and sold, instead of their 5 forma carrier prime. Really, make this one right. It is the easiest by far. The rest I still think need looking at, but we can't while you are focusing on a question you already have the answer for. 

[-Kalysto-]

7 hours ago, ludo3009 said:

Reason for vacuum nerf ?

boredom

[WhyNotBro]

40 minutes ago, Didoguard said:

This is warframe - not a vacuum cleaner simulator game

This is not a cleaner simulator, indeed. This is a farming simulator, with huge open spaces and tonns of loot all over the map. Running and picking up each tiny piece of loot makes the player to be that "cleaner".

41 minutes ago, Didoguard said:

This only shows how bad the community has become. The inability to even have logical thought behind their arguments is horrifying. 

Actually, there were many logicaly approved posts about what and how Vacuum supose to be.  Also, i see no logical thought behind your own comment.

Edited October 6, 2016 by WhyNotBro
Who knows

[lodoubt]

18 minutes ago, Lone.Hunter.99 said:

Thanks!. Can you guys make a resource cosmetics bundle?

...that is actually kind of brilliant. Man, I'd shill out 30 plat on a pack that makes all my resources look like love hearts or something.

Anyway, if we actually had 12m universal vacuum, one would begin to wonder why the game even has pickups. Why not just add drops directly to the end of mission rewards such as was done for bosses? It is simply a core conceit of the game that pickups are how we do things, and given that, in order for them to actually matter as a means of directing player movement and incentivising abilities like Mag's that interact with them, the universal vacuum radius needs to remain reasonably small. Consider that in the early days of Carrier people were excited because you could use explosives to break crates inside locked rooms and suck the resources out of them.

 

23 minutes ago, F8ted said:

...once again an issue that was plainly clear the desires of your customers and you went out of your way to avoid it. People wanted an easier, more streamlined void system. We got dozens of relics that need to be farmed in arbitrary locations at terrible odds. People wanted a more ergonomic and user friendly fusion system. It was at least delivered, but with a much higher credit cost after credit rewards were drastically cut. People wanted a new starmap, so we rolled out the old one with a graphic update, and switched around some of the missions. People wanted a better PvP system (well not many), and we got football. People wanted more out of Archwing, and we got a vortex tunnel. Now with vacuum, you basically cut it in half, gave it to everybody, and hope it convinces people to use something that they have already maxxed and sold, instead of their 5 forma carrier prime. Really, make this one right. It is the easiest by far. The rest I still think need looking at, but we can't while you are focusing on a question you already have the answer for.

Say what you will, in my opinion every single thing you mentioned was a NET improvement. There were mis-steps involved, some of which were *terrible*, just as bugs are generated every time you fix bugs. The Void relics system, while still kind of arbitrary and with poor odds, and at times overcomplicated, is at its absolute worst, equal to keys. The new starmap, strange and arbitrary as it is in some ways, is a vast improvement over its predecessor. Archwing 2.0 delivered a new movement system that felt way more immersive, but was clumsy as hell and apparently caused vertigo for some people???, but at the same time gave us 2 new game modes which were *precisely what it needed*. Lunaro is actually pretty fun but they didn't fix the ultimate issue of PvP right now which is queue management and activity levels, but they certainly did not make it worse by adding Lunaro.

What the hell can you even do with a 5 forma Carrier Prime that you can't do with a 1 - 2 forma Carrier

 

[Whatever_desu]

So I've just returned home from a ~14 hour shift at work... Moseyed in, said hello the cat, took off my belt, raided the fridge, booted up my computer, the usual song and dance. I logged into Warframe, grabed my Forma out of the foundry, started up another Forma, and headed back up the the bridge to check the patch notes. "What's this? The Vacuum Within!? Is this what I think it is? It can't be!"

*Reads the update*

Let me preface with this: I play this game mostly after work, when I've let my guard down, and am far more likely to say something offensive without thinking about it. So I mostly keep to myself to avoid upsetting my felow Tenno. I don't post much on the forums, even right after an update. I've realized that it's human nature to dwell on the negative aspects of most things (especially change), and I'm no exception, so I try to keep my output to a minimum. Now that I've put that out there, perhaps whomever is reading this post will have a better idea of exactly how much pure, unadulterated hatred I have for this "update".

 

If DE had left Carriers' Vacuum alone, gave the mini-vac to everyone else, only the usual whinging around here would have ensued. Probably something to the tune of "It might technically be a buff but everyone will still only use Carrier". If DE had given the full 12m Vacuum (10m in front, whatevever) to every Sentinel, the only complaint to be had would be "When do the pets get this?". If we'd gotten the full 12m Vacuum passive to every Companion, or better yet, every Warframe...

Here's what we got instead...

Carrier, the Companion used by an overwhelming majority of the player base because of Vacuum, the ability people have been asking to be a universal passive for years, now instead has a glorified Ammo Mutation. But wait, there's more! Now ALL Sentinels have the Vacuum ability! At half the radius, which translates to one quarter of the area. _{(Hey, math class was good for something after all, I'll have to apologize to a few teachers if I ever revisit the old school.)}

[Sreack-]

Good Work Keep It up!

[F8ted]

@lodoubtRelatively arbitrary points there, but I'll bite. The loot system really should be 

3 minutes ago, lodoubt said:

 add drops directly to the end of mission rewards such as was done for bosses?

There is no reason that if a player kills an enemy, loots a container, or opens a locker that they should not receive the loot they earned. Besides that, the loot that drops on the floor in missions are mostly lackluster. I've completed my necessary farming of anything that drops outside of Argon. That means I had to pick them up in thousands of tiny drops. I related it in another discussion to running around a city picking up a bunch of pennies to exchange them for a gun. This is ludicrous. Why do we need 100 ferrite bundles of 50 a mission instead of maybe 5 bundles of 1000. I mean I will never need ferrite again, but how is this still the way we pick up resources? Why do enemies who do not use shotguns, snipers, or pistols drop ammo that is only usable for those weapons. Why does an Ogris take Sniper ammo, but a Simulor take Rifle ammo? Why does the Kulstar and the Viper use the same ammo? The loot system as a whole should eventually be completed, and honestly, the change to the resource aesthetics has been the best lately. Really wouldn't mind if the "containers" were how we got our supply of resources, if they dropped in much higher quantities. This is however irrelevant to my original point. There really is no reason why they had to reduce the effectiveness of the original ability before giving it to everybody. 

For what its worth on my updates rant. At least the map once again is linear, like originally, but the improvement was solely aesthetics. We even lost nightmare. When they said they were redesigning the map, I expected more than just a graphics update. Keys had totally different problems than the void, but the one on everyone's mind-the grind from nothing to void item-was made worse. If you have the proper relics, and about 15 of them, you can get the item you need fairly reliably, but getting those correct 15 is much harder. I wont even touch Archwing, if you still consider it acceptable I'm not going to change your mind. I liked it before, can't stand it now. Lunaro was.... Come play football in a space ninja game! Anyone...? ANYONE.......???? And certainly failed to draw appreciable crowds to pvp. It made it no better or worse, though if I cared enough to play through the conclave I would be pretty upset people earn standing from a football game. None I would consider a net gain. Most I would be happier if the time was spent on a new cinematic quest instead. In fact, outside of Kavats and Titania, I could have really gone for nothing else except a new quest. And maybe perhaps a much greater focus on bringing out more quests. I am not happy with their redesigns of fundamental systems lately. 

[gabrielmendoza]

Tnx

[DLz47]

Two notes:
1) 6 meters is nothing. At this point go pick up the loot by yourself if you want or if you CAN (objects through walls/floors anyone ?). 10 m front, 12 m peripheral (old carrier) were good and enough, this new range is really small.

2) Why don't you give to all the warframes the old vacuum ability as a passive (not this rediculous 6 m)? So I can choose to play with any companion/sentinel or none of them.

P.S.: when you decide that a sentinel can't vacuum a specific object at least be 100% sure that that object does not fall through floors, or goes inside walls or spawns in not accessible rooms. Because stars still fall through floors or go inside walls and sometimes the convergence spwan inside room we can't access.

Edited October 6, 2016 by DLz47

[Warlord1400]

I though you guys were hotfixing that abysmal Vacuum range for a second there. It hurts to dream....I guess I'll cope.

BTW, I have some special suggestions that'll end this salt ocean we're all drowning in!

1. Give all sentinels 10m vacuum or more.
2. Make a mods that at least doubles range it has already
3. Give Carrier his vacuum back; Diriga has 3 precepts, why can't Carrier?

Edited October 6, 2016 by Warlord1400
Added the "suggestions"