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The Vacuum Within: Universal Vacuum Feedback


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Well Carrier now does what it's name says, and if you don't/can't use a mod slot for ammo mutation then you could use carrier instead, plus he is the tankiest of all the sentinels with 2k+ EHP, compared to most others with 1-1.5k EHP and Wyrm at 600-800 EHP.

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9 minutes ago, Slaviar said:

We were not arguing over its name-to-function, not usefulness. Because in case of usefulness it went down. Better solution would be storing ammo instead of increasing capacity. But I guess capacity was easier to code.

I'm totally indifferent in Carrier feud. I wasn't using it and I couldn't care less about Vacuum. I'm simply amazed at reaction of some people, They react like without 12m Vacuum frame loses 99% of all stats.

Yeah, it's weird. This game is supposed to be fast paced and yet there are modes like Defence.

Loot gathering was never an issue for me though. Kill group of mobs, spend five seconds gathering loot, keep killing/parkouring

I am arguing that making more bullets != the name carrier.  The name carrier was more appropriate when he carried around your loot.

A smaller radius makes it worse. Cutting it BY HALF is just crazy. Hell, I would be fine with it if they just gave other sentinels 6m vacuum by default and let carrier keep his 12m one. Without a large range, vacuum serves very little purpose. 

They also claim to want to get rid of camping but defense is still a thing too. 

Loot gathering was always an issue. I don't  want to spend 5 seconds every two seconds gathering loot. I want to spend my time playing the game instead. This is the same reason that I dislike the photography mini-game and the hacking mini-game (in regards to alarms - I don't mind it for spy or rescue missions). The game is fun because of it's fast pace. It should be playing up that angle and trying to be more like classic shooters like Quake or Serious Sam, instead of trying to slow things down.

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55 minutes ago, R34LM said:

I don't know why people even would consider nerfing Vacuum a balance change. How exactly did it make any of us overpowered? Besides, 6m isn't even a sizable nerf; it's purely an annoyance. What is even more annoying is that DE constantly dodges the question of why they did it in the first place.

Too long of a range? They left it that way since Carrier's inception years ago. I'm not even going to go with "it's DE logic of let it sit for a while and pull out the rug when there is now furniture on it".

You could grab stuff behind walls? Maybe they could invest time in a fix to make sure things didn't bug out behind walls. Besides, how bad  was it? Ah! Two crates behind the wall oooooooo that is so going to boost my gameplay since I have Carrier to suck it up. No benefit.

All the sentinels have it now, so nerf it because of the wider usage amongst all players? You mean to tell me that the 80% of the player population that use sentinels use Carrier wasn't a wide use of it already? If you left it at 12m you wouldn't hear anyone complaining.

I might even believe it's because Nekros farms were getting out of hand, but that's even pulling at straws.

 

DE has not given us a concrete reason as to why they don't want a 12m universal, to all companions, Vacuum. They have always dodged the question. So, they either don't have a reason, or they have a very pitiful one that wouldn't hold up in a logical argument. Add to the fact that they release a weapon and skin that work with Djinn to distract players and skew the results of their sentinel use survey and you can see that they are hoping for us to forget about it. Hell, giving Djinn so much attention has highlighted that every other sentinel besides Carrier is s***. Why? It isn't because of Vacuum. It's because every other sentinel besides Carrier has the strength of a glass jar; hell, Carrier can rarely go to high level missions of 80+ unless you have healing abilities, and even then you'd want Naramon because bombard rockets are a thing.

This whole update is a distraction, nothing more. It is a distraction from the unnecessary Vacuum nerf; it is a distraction from the fact that TWW is delayed again until next month; it is a distraction from the fact that players, including content creators, are losing interest in the game because of lack of sizable content; it is a distraction from the fact that "longevity" in Warframe will never be a thing despite the many attempts to try to make it last after the plug is finally pulled on it.

You want the know the funny thing, though? It is a abysmally poor distraction.

Good stuff they aren't being transparent and obviously trying to distract us from the main issue which is TWW delayed. I hope they don't do a 180 for vacuum like Microsoft did for Xbox one to show they do listen to what we want after the back lash. Hope we are given the reasons behind the changes. So we don't feel it's done just to piss us off. 

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18 hours ago, Silvus-Sol said:

Bingo! Putting Vacuum on Warframes instantly clears up all the companion complications and issues. Just don't forget to have the ability to toggle it on/off in the gameplay options menu, for those that dislike Vacuum.

Toggle should be in the Arsenal menu, not in gameplay menus, I don't want to have to go to the esc menu every time I switch to Nekros. 

Edited by Gelkor
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20 hours ago, Daggerpaw1 said:

^ As the title says,

Why was a nerf to vacuum even suggested at the dev table? The players have made it very clear that at the least, we wanted vacuum to be a universal preset that could be applied to all sentinels. So, I have to ask:

Why was the decision made to go one step below the lowest bar of the community's expectations and nerf vacuum's range to half of it's current range?

Is it some sort of punishment?

Is it an attempt to "balance" the rework? And if so, balance what? If all sentinels have vacuum then there's no need to "balance" anything about the rework. As for kubrows and kavats, people who value vacuum will still use sentinels over companions if companions do not have vacuum. In other words, any setup that does not currently use a kubrow or kavat will not be using one any time soon as a result of nothing being changed about them.

The community wanted vacuum to be a universal thing for all sentinels, and we wanted it to work just as it did before. We didn't ask for a "compromise" because there's no need to compromise. This feature is a massive quality of life improvement for everyone who uses it and it does not affect combat in any way, so it doesn't provide any complications to overall game balance, nor will it hurt market platinum consumption because resources are gargantuanly overpriced in the market (and that's good, less pay2win) and people who buy resource boosters and/or resource drop chance boosters are going to be using carrier anyways while they're resource farming.

So, I have to ask: Why was this even suggested?

My request, of course, is to give the community what we've been asking for ever since vacuum became the meta:

Make it a universal preset (at least) for all sentinels (companions would be great, too, although somewhat less useful since they go off and do their own thing in missions) and leave the actual function of vacuum as it is. I don't think any of us thought that we would actually have to specify that last part.

 

"So, I have to ask: Why was this even suggested?":The only thing I can think of is spite. When you look at how hard DE has resisted universal vacuum and how long they have fought against it. All i can think of is this is punishment and spite for us as a community "demanding" a quality of life improvement. 

This is akin to a child being told to "put the cookie back" and then they spit on the cookie before they put it back in the jar. "well its ruined now isnt it. Now no one can have it"

Edited by Zephlos
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I haven't used carrier in months if not years.. Picking up loot just feels casual and part of my movement. Sure, you are under fire when picking up loot sometimes. But when is that a huge issue? Even with the squishier frames I see no issue in getting my loot. A large amount of people use Rhino, so being under fire should be no issue for them either. I will admit, 6m feels short when my Orthos Prime has a range of like 10m but I have never wanted every single last possible drop from a mission. Those couple I miss do not make a difference in my mind.

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1 hour ago, (XB1)ashes of suvius said:

*snippity*

edit: A random side tangent thought I've had for a long time, we have tennogen content, why cant there be, for instance a tennogen community project to add things to the dojo? Why not take on interns willing to do more of these side tangent things for the experience of game development. I guarantee if you open that opportunity up to tennogen creators you'll have at least decent interest from a crowd that already has built content for the game. Half of the problem seems like the devs being spread too thin, this would help. Just a thought.

Disagreement aside, this is really a brilliant idea. Would probably take some financial and contractual finagling, but this is worthy of a thread in it's own right.

Also, I agree with you on many points, I just don't see this vacuum change as bad as most do. But I'm also one of those crazy ones that wants to pick what gets vacuumed up.

Edited by BulletsforTeeth
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6 hours ago, Artek94 said:

Reading the converdation that was going on here, i think i should remind something:

In one of the older Devstreams one of the devs compared the balance of the game to a bucket full of water. You can't add something in without taking something out.

That's pretty much the philosophy they were always going with. Very rarely they do pure nerfs or buffs unless item is broken. Excalibur was useless, he was buffed to god-like then nerfed over time change by change to the point where he's still strong, but reasonably strong.

Same happend to Diriga but from the oposite side. It was god-like to the point that i could finish void T1 defense by doing literally nothing, then it was nerfed into hell, then buffed again, but to a reasonable point.

This also reminds me: DE rarely do something perfectly on the 1st try. It takes them time to see how players will react to refine their new addition.

This change was an experiment. They're going to read the reaction and change (or not) somethjng starting from there.

Just let's keep it civil and avoid needless game/dev/player bashing, okay? The discussions that were going on here are nice, but i think it's couple of degrees too hot.

Okay... wall of text incoming, but please bear with me... for starters...: Did it occur to you that the mentioned example is a pretty devastating case of self imposed rules and thus a pretty... idiotic... looking fallacy?

The developers of the game are the ones to shape it. There are no cans or cants here, everything goes if they will it, nothing goes if they dont, as such the example which was showcased severely and extremely lacks any explanations by which we could grasp the balance they are trying to uphold by fallacious means to begin with.
In my honest opinion this reasoning hints at some rather stunted and wayward system which pretty much erodes the development of the entire game, and produces completely and utterly deranged and mental decisions, such as the "lets split vacuum into 3 parts" original idea they had, and lets take a moment here because i could never wrap my head around this either. In fact, i was so conflicted about it that i went around my friends circle and asked people to propose a hypothetical situation in which this idea made any sense.

You have a bad looting system, and a bandaid mod (vacuum) which next to everyone uses (and i dont trust the 89% either because im pretty much sure that this involves inactive accounts too. The actual number should be even higher). Now, the community demands the looting system to be fixed instead of having a band-aid, so they can use other sentinels/pets.

The answer to that was: We gonna split vacuum into 3 parts.

Let that sink in. Please do, and then here i go for just about the 50th time and ask of you to try and explain to me how this makes any sense. Cause by the example you have stated, we are looking at the literal cancer of warframe development, which produces broken ideas, unplayable decisions, logical nightmares by some bogus background noise given the name "balance" even tho the actual meaning of the word "balance" doesnt even apply here at all, leaving you completely dumbfounded as to wtf is going on in the first place.

**** But i digress, lets get back to the topic and lets try to undo this mess of a yarn ball:

- We have a bad looting/gathering system, fundamentally unsuited to house the type of game warframe is. This is shown by a.) Simple logic, because you wont put pickups on the ground when designing a flight simulator. b.) by the simple fact that 89% of all players resorted to a band-aid which allowed them to circumvent the fundamentally flawed system.

- Vacuum was in the game for years, unchanged. If its such a balance issue (and at this point i would appreciate an explanation, because neither you, the devs or literally anyone has EVER explained why its a balance issue, so we have a missing argument here from the get go) one would assume that it would have been addressed quite literally ages ago. It has been not, and lets just put it plain and simple: It was never a balance issue.

- The players being fed up with the fact that they are literally forced to use this band-aid instead of alternate sentinels/pets, request the loot system to be finally, universally fixed, so they can use other companions.

- The response to that first was: Splitting vacuum into 3 mods ._.

- The second response was a step in the right direction with vacuum being made universal, but it broke both its legs mid way, got pushed onto sentinels instead of warframes (while cats and dogs are exempt and thus they remain invalid picks) and got its range reduced because of (by your words) buckets of water and some delusional, always escaping, unexplained, never rationalized concept of balance.

TL;DR:

  1. The devs are the devs. There are no buckets of water, only in their imagination as self imposed restrictions. They can do whatever they want because they are the proverbial gods of warframe down to its last digit of code.
  2. The implication of the bucket does not apply to the current predicament to begin with, because we are talking here about a design flaw, and not kills/minute or weapon damage vs other weapons damage. As such, there is no "balance" issue.
  3. The only argument by which you could make this an argument of balance is by the amount of collected resources. This is literally and fundamentally the only argument by which the word "balance" could be used here. However, this argument is instantly diffused by two simple facts: a.) vacuum was in the game unchanged for nearly 3 years. Let that sink in. Carrier was introduced 2013 along with vacuum and since then vacuum has seen a hand full of fixes but never a nerf. Rightfully so since it was never a balance issue. b.) The second fact comes ironically from the 3 split vacuum. Remember what they proposed? 1. Health/energy 2. ammo 3. mods/resources/misc. If the amount of items collected would have been an issue, then resources, mods and misc would have never in hell made it onto one mod. Balancing this would have looked like this: 1. health/energy/mods 2. ammo/misc 3. resources. Thus requiring you to choose between sucking up resources, mods and misc, directly implying you will not collect some of them. This was not the case.
  4. Conclusion: This was never a question of balance or buckets of water. The current vacuum nerf is the result of some sort of cancerous way of thinking/designing within DE which is never explained in detail, but produces completely deranged end results which not really compliment the game, but manage to piss off 90% of the player base.
Edited by Aerensiniac
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1 minute ago, TruthArbiter said:

They could improve the vacuum so that it doesn't waste things like life support or energy. It wouldn't have to be the same as what we have now.

but then somone will again argue "why Vacuum Can't pick LF DE!?!?!?!?!i don't want to run around pickyng pesky little item." like already happened with the original carrier long ago

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while i think this change is good (because i can use other sentinels) general loot pick (non contextual interaction) should not be a part of warframe. the moment an enemy is killed what ever they drop should immediately be added to the temporary inventory which can then be view at the mission rewards screen. ammo is something that has needed to be fixed for far to long.

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I guarantee that nothing will change for most players. Your play style won't change. Your abundance of resources wont dwindle. Your weapons wont start running out of ammo.

How do I know this... Because I stopped using carrier a long time ago and nothing changed.

DE made this decision because they too realise that there was an unnecessary reliance on 12m vacuum. This change will prove that to the community. 

Edited by Hypernaut1
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Please can I have the range restored on vacuum? 

We have enough things to run around for and pick up manually as it is without being forced to move around even more.

Also the carrier itself now seems to be a complete waste of a slot.

Whether people use a sentinel to shoot is not relevant to the range of vacuum.

 

 

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31 minutes ago, DeFragMe said:

not if you want to create something like progress or something to do.

for example, if i instantly have all the ressources i need to build something, i only need to wait the ~12h mostly to finish the weapon ,use it for 10 min (if you like speed grinding) and throw it away for the next weapon.

If you know dont instantly have all the ressources and you actually have to look a TINY bit more... it takes you maybe 30 min to a few hours (depending if you search or only rush through) and then the 12h to finish to throw the weapon away. wich actually causes someone to play longer.

Sure if a person doesnt like grinding , he will stop playing, but the game always was a grind and will never change... even if it already got laughable easy to get stuff compared to years ago.

Except making resources easy to pick up doesn't produce the situation you're describing, since the limit is on resource drops and, for the weapons that are good (ie primes, syndicate guns), things that just picking up drops on the ground won't help you get. Loot pickup speed is a pure quality of life issue since the loot has to drop first and that is the holdup in the system, not whether you can vacuum up packs of nanospores instead of having to run around and pick them up manually while your team is yelling at you to get to extraction because you're holding up the mission.

 

7 minutes ago, spacedkadet said:

The majority of us do not need such aid - I hate my sentinel dealing damage of any kind,

With my carrier, I outright removed his weapon precept because I hate him shooting and doing things like killing targets I'm trying to scan or draw aggro to himself and get himself killed.

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32 minutes ago, EchoesOfRain said:

So by this logic searching for Ayatan scupltures and Syndicate Medallions is a horrible part of the game because you have to slow down and check for them all around the map? What about scanning enemies into the codex, or scanning Kuria? All of these should be shot out of the airlock because they can't be done at a fast and engaging pace? You guys need to learn how to enjoy the game for what it is.

Yes, it sucked when I transitioned from Carrier to Kavat, but I got used to it. before long I forgot how over-convenient Carrier was. You guys just need to calm down and get used to the 6m pickup range. You've all let Carrier spoil you for far too long

You are a very, very strange person. You are actively advocating something that adds NOTHING of value to the game. NOTHING. 

Also, picking up something that drops in EVERY MISSION is vastly different then going into a mission with a goal of searching for stars/medallions, and scanning things. @notlamprey has already destroyed your pitiful attempt at an arguement, but I just felt that you needed to be told the difference between picking up loot, and GOING IN TO MISSIONS WITH A GOAL IN MIND TO GET SOMETHING SPECIFIC like stars/scans/medallions. 

 

Genuinely mind boggling how people can say that it was "too convenient", its like you people enjoy mindless tedium. Calling Carrier users lazy cause they dont want to waste more time than they need to to pick up every last bit of loot? Thats crazy to me.

Edited by armedpoop
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1 hour ago, Shockwave- said:

ITs not a crutch, we CAN do it the slow clunky non-fun way. It's a crutch like your car is a crutch, i mean git gud, ride your bike everywhere, you CAN do it.....

Not really about ammo, but sure that helps.

So new players have a lot of resources... guess how we all got those resources... by getting them all when we were new. Plus DE keeps trying to suck down the large stacks so if you don't maintain it it might drain away someday

Unless you have looter, or teammates, but yea 4 man squads don't happen in this squad based game, and all four players go last too, so nobody is breaking or killing anything behind us.....

Again, unless someone in front of you already broke it. then it's in a corner behind a mob and you don't see the green glow and the minimap icon is under the giant head of a team-mate

Health orbs, only if nekros but no not really not for those in most cases

Sure for energy orbs just like everything else. Only 25 is all the energy you have if you  are not using Zenurik (crutch) and have a polarity other than ES.

89% reduction in vac radius isn't small but it's the fact there is NO GOOD REASON to have reduced it. It's a QOL downgrade for no reason. We still CAN get all the loot, it just takes more tedium and more time, so why change it?

its factually in surface area a 75% reduction and in total range it is 50% less.

I have made my general calculation mistake but it still is a significant change not for the better of the game.

Chao, The Roaring Lion

Edited by TheRoaringLion
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3 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

while i think this change is good (because i can use other sentinels) general loot pick (non contextual interaction) should not be a part of warframe. the moment an enemy is killed what ever they drop should immediately be added to the temporary inventory which can then be view at the mission rewards screen. ammo is something that has needed to be fixed for far to long.

That's what I would like to see.

Granted, it comes with its own set of challenges, but it's a system I'd be willing to wait for. Until then, I don't really see why this vacuum change needed to happen.

It's such a risk! DE risked losing a huge chunk of player happiness/confidence at a time when community mood was already looking a bit down. I have to hope that they can find a way to gracefully fix this.

Back to the point, though, I've recently started advocating for a system that does what you're describing. We could expand on the spartan functionality of our current 'loot crawler,' adding in cool art that makes it feel good to have this loot even when you don't see it on the play field.

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12 minutes ago, armedpoop said:

My thoughts exactly. I cant believe that ANYONE can defend this change. Its nice thats its universal between sentinels and all, but why not cut the middle man and put it on frames? And why would you nerf the range? Makes no sense to me at all. 

 

Just blown away by all the apologists, honestly. 

It's like this for me.  I never needed 12m.  I would like it to stay 12m but being given the option of 6m is still workable.  It's as if they had data showing that 6m was the minimum amount we ever actually needed.  Like commuting to work in a lexus when you only ever needed a VW golf.   But this is cause I'm struggling to find a reason for the range reduction.  Regardless, it still gets the job done. 

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1 hour ago, DeFragMe said:

well the reason msotly would be.... it would make all ressource collecting even more trivial as it is already.

What kind of "reasoning" is that?

  • Is picking up stuff by running over it challenging?
  • Is it interesting?
  • Is it fun?

The answer to all 3 questions is no. It's isn't challenging, it isn't interesting, and it sure as hell isn't fun. The only thing the reduced vacuum range does is makes picking up loot more tedious. Which then leads to the next question, what is the point? Tedium just for the sake of it? And it's not even the kind of tedium free2play games use to get people to invest real money. This change is not gonna make DE more money. It is really only added tedium for the sake of making something more tedious.

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1 hour ago, PrVonTuckIII said:

 

Not necessarily. Despite the nerf to range, Vacuum is still sufficiently large to pick up items as you walk past them. The only difference is that it doesn't loot the room for you anymore.

 

 

1 hour ago, RikerWatts said:

While I do agree the vacuum is small (again everyone misses that point) I do recognize it's a pacing thing and yet people around fail to see that this is a "test" of sorts, if you want to give feedback, do so. Rebecca asked for it via video, gif, written on any place you can. She has the warframe reddit open on her second monitor all the time, if you dislike this and want it changed for the better you can most certainly reach out to her collectively. But right now all that is going on is whining instead of feedback, and people are missing out on something that has been in front of our eyes for a little while and that DE has been wanting for a long time.
 

My point is that any loot (credits,endo,blueprints,mods,resources) earned by the team should be recieved by the team. Period. End of Statement.

Syndicate medallions and Ayatan Sculptures/Stars make sense needing to be picked up to be acquired as they are literally a hide and go seek game in and of themselves.

The name of this game is Warframe, not Viscera Cleanup Detail. Cleaning the map is not the selling point of this game.

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2 hours ago, RikerWatts said:

Now bear with me there will be reading. Lots of reading.

Even the Bible is shorter.

2 hours ago, RikerWatts said:

Let's start off first with a quick SUPER COOL HYPERLINK TO A THREAD COMMENT!

Nope.

2 hours ago, RikerWatts said:


To stop myself before I ramble on, this is what I'm trying to say.
Don't hate the vacuum nerf for it's overall area coverage for being dwindled to half it's old Carrier precept, realize that DE is doing this to pace you into something much bigger that you will, as a player, a human with squishy brains capable of a ton memory, only get to experience fresh once.
Just take it easy, even then in the thread I linked the update itself is in a feedback stage. Maybe they might revert it or push it up to a comfortable 10 radius. Who knows, but just realize this is all being done in tandem with preparing us. Ever so eloquently in so obvious it's hidden undertones.

I am not sure if zigzag dancing around to collect your loot enhances your gaming experience either. Let me think about it for a second: Nope².

I understand why DE did it. But if level in a grinding game are bigger, twisted and fast, it is just annoying. And after playing this game for a while i am not sure if they are preparing us for the next big thing or just making it up while they go. Personally i think it is one of the best F2P games out there, but that doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement. Don't get me started.

If they want us to take the scenic route, we would need something to look at, something that doesn't wear of, AND that is hard to come by. Examples? Usually that would be Scouting, luring, camping for enemies, regroup because you have to push or you have to solve puzzles. Something like that. But for that the movement system like it is at this moment, it is way to fast, enemy movement often incalculable (and even with mediocre equip too easy to kill). You can not have it both ways.

It's like the archwing movement in indoor missions. Rotating and spinning around freely is fine, very spacey-thingy indeed, and zooming in while you melee enemies creates am action-packed illusion, i get it . But both features together are an absolute no-go.

 

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1 minute ago, robbybe01234 said:

It's like this for me.  I never needed 12m.  I would like it to stay 12m but being given the option of 6m is still workable.  It's as if they had data showing that 6m was the minimum amount we ever actually needed.  Like commuting to work in a lexus when you only ever needed a VW golf.   But this is cause I'm struggling to find a reason for the range reduction.  Regardless, it still gets the job done. 

Im not even going to say that it doesnt, but it adds literally 3m extra to the base of what have without a sentinel. Its basically nothing, on top of that it was actually much large loss than 50% overall due to it being measured in a diameter. 

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1 minute ago, TheRoaringLion said:

its factually in surface area a 75% reduction and in total range it is 50% less.

I have made my general calculation mistake but it still is a significant change not for the better of the game.

Chao, The Roaring Lion

Total area was reduced by 89% in volume since it was a sphere. its a 75% reduction in the disc area of a flat ciricle but if you ever jump AT ALL the 3rd dimension is important. Since carrier sits above and slightly behind you and is the center of the sphere, something on the floor 6m in front of your feet is NOT in range because of that 3rd dimension.

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Yes, however I do enjoy the idea of the carrier changes.

I am awfully tired of these back-handed updates.

 

Right now there is no logical argument for how the UNIVERSAL vacuum was handled. We asked for vacuum to be usable for all companions, so they destroyed vacuum with a now currently 83% nerf and only gave it to sentinels.

I can only imagine that they did this because they wanted to re-create the sensation of the original Jackal assassination alerts that could pop up in odd locations like Pluto. Fighting a 70+ Jackal in a narrow corridor as a new player with a gorgon as my best weapon was by far the best boss fight this game has ever seen.

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