Bladestorm rework feedback

[AxelDeath]

This is the rework i really want for Ash, great work!
DE pls look at this

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

The point of the BS rework is to fix the fact that it's spammable and keeps you invulnerable the entire time while being one of the most damaging moves in the game, by nature. I like that it'll require more thought and effort to use, and will likely be receiving a damage increase while hopefully lessening the noobish players it attracts. 

I do agree, now that it requires marking, that the animation probably should be a little faster. Before the marking I would disagree due to it already being a spamfest. 

I've said it countless times, because he is my main, but I'll say it again. Ash is NOT meant to wipe out entire rooms of minions like many of the other frames. His skillset gives him the ability to focus on the STRONGEST enemies when everyone else's damage falls off, while picking off weaker ones along the way. If you're using him with half decent mods on anything lower than level 40 minimum you're wasting his talents. Don't even try to compete with kill numbers below those levels. If you're using great mods he's capable of easily handling enemies level 100+ while using his teammates as little more than a distraction.

[Nazrethim]

11 hours ago, (XB1)ToothlessApollo said:

Ash needs to be made to require skill on all aspects of his gameplay without crippling him, beyond all else. It's irresponsible to leave him as is, but it's a very temperamental position to be in because he's a fan-favorite and needs proper care and justice done to his rework. Anything less than a proper alternative to spam-4-to-win will be a slap in the face to die-hard fans.

I fully agree with you. I have a suggestion thread that focuses exactly on that perhaps you would like it:

Spoiler

 

 

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

10 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

I fully agree with you. I have a suggestion thread that focuses exactly on that perhaps you would like it:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

I like the changes DE is making to the Bladestorm, but i love the changes you suggest for Shuriken, Smoke Screen and especially Teleport. I've been wanting to have Teleport be aimed location for a long time, and opening enemies nearby to finishers is a great enhancement that can also be more team friendly since they can benefit from it too if you teleport to their targets around them.

[Nazrethim]

1 minute ago, (PS4)Riko_113 said:

I like the changes DE is making to the Bladestorm, but i love the changes you suggest for Shuriken, Smoke Screen and especially Teleport. I've been wanting to have Teleport be aimed location for a long time, and opening enemies nearby to finishers is a great enhancement that can also be more team friendly since they can benefit from it too if you teleport to their targets around them.

Thank you ^-^

[StealthyCARNAGE]

6 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

I would like your idea if you added a Smoke Screen Augment to replace Smoke Shadow.

Hmm? I actually did. It would change the method of extending duration for you and affected through the use of "skill based gameplay". So, for example, doing headshots within a certain timespan, avoiding a certain amount of damage, etc. The idea behind that comes from Despoil, which all it really does is change the resource it runs on.

6 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

Not really, since it's would be a 3m AoE stun, so you could teleport to your objective or right beside him/her and execute it and then get out with a quickaimed teleport somewhere else. It mostly boils down to how good is your aim on the move, if you are used to stand still to aim you may find problems, but if you are used to fast paced battles where you parkour and shoot at the same time aiming a 3m radius finisher opener should be a cakewalk.

Well, it's sorta like trying to hit someone with Ripline while you're shooting by. Even if you really do have 1337-tier aim under any circumstances, you just need a target to stagger at the wrong moment, have weird pathing, get killed by a teammate, or whatever, and you'll probably find yourself teleported to some random &#! spot you probably didn't want to be at. Otherwise you'll always be forced to aim at the ground which I find somewhat more restrictive than I'd like it to be.

6 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

And that's why BS shouldn't be about mashing a key until something dies. Imagine if the window not only featured having to aim but also a randomly selected E-R two-key system. Aim>BS>E or R show up >press the right key it continues, press the wrong key it stops.

I don't think I fully understand what you're trying to say. I mean, are there any damage type abilities that work any differently? Because if not you'll probably use it for its CC and not its damage. And I understand the second bit even less. You aim at something and then press E. Never said it required you to hold the right mouse button or anything. You just need to be quick about it.

[Nazrethim]

1 hour ago, S.C. said:

Hmm? I actually did. It would change the method of extending duration for you and affected through the use of "skill based gameplay". So, for example, doing headshots within a certain timespan, avoiding a certain amount of damage, etc. The idea behind that comes from Despoil, which all it really does is change the resource it runs on.

Oh, I thought that was an inherent mechanic of the ability not an augment. Failed a spot check. Mea culpa.

1 hour ago, S.C. said:

I don't think I fully understand what you're trying to say. I mean, are there any damage type abilities that work any differently? Because if not you'll probably use it for its CC and not its damage. And I understand the second bit even less. You aim at something and then press E. Never said it required you to hold the right mouse button or anything. You just need to be quick about it.

Not really, most are "aim in the general direction of you target>>> mash a single button repeatedly until something dies". Don't you think something needs to be done to spice things up?

Anyway, your rework looks pretty nice.

[CTanGod]

I think Shuriken (much like Soul Punch) is due for a change as well to this end I have a proposition that has synergy with the new Bladestorm:

-Shuriken is no longer a projectile

-Shuriken is a 12m cone

-Shuriken still does same dmg and procs bleed

-Shuriken also briefly stuns enemies

-Shuriken also marks enemies for Bladestorm strikes

-Marks remain for 5 seconds (unaffected by duration mods)

I think these changes would give Ash some utility and more fluidity to his new Bladestorm while not violently murdering no duration builds.

[StealthyCARNAGE]

22 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

Not really, most are "aim in the general direction of you target>>> mash a single button repeatedly until something dies". Don't you think something needs to be done to spice things up?

Even if you say that, how exactly would that work? Because in the a end you still just press a button and something dies. The only difference is whether you have to aim or not. What else can you change?

[aerosoul1337]

Just saw this official poll:

 

[Profit62]

On Thursday, October 13, 2016 at 7:17 PM, (PS4)Deception_Pharo said:

That's a terrible idea since each shuriken will deal extra damage from his passive.

Also in the movie, it was multiple assassins throwing the shurikens so therefore a ninja can't throw that many unless modded with firerate and fast reload.

Its a game and just because you don't like the idea doesn't mean its terrible.

 its Made from make believe, not actual reality so it is possible, you seem to forget that

[Chipputer]

On 10/12/2016 at 5:33 PM, S.C. said:

I'd say it'd make it about just as obsolete as Valkyr's Ripline ability or Zephyr's Tail Wind.

Those abilities are already antiquated and pointless. There are plenty of people aware of their contradictory nature and lobbying for them to be reworked or changed. Adding Teleport to that pile would only make the problem worse and impact player perception if it were changed, later, when they finally get around to admitting that these types of abilities need something more to them.

Alternately: Just because one move has bad mechanics associated with it doesn't mean you should make another ability do the same.

[Kefka]

i don't appreciate what i say being twisted and exaggerated to fuel an agenda so read what ppl actually say before you drag em through the mud.

[StealthyCARNAGE]

12 hours ago, Profit62 said:

Its a game and just because you don't like the idea doesn't mean its terrible.

 its Made from make believe, not actual reality so it is possible, you seem to forget that

It does seem quite unbalanced, however. When I said "highly spammable", I meant for the ability to have extremely short/quick cast animations. Turning it into an actual barrage goes way beyond what I actually had in mind.

10 hours ago, Chipputer said:

Those abilities are already antiquated and pointless. There are plenty of people aware of their contradictory nature and lobbying for them to be reworked or changed. Adding Teleport to that pile would only make the problem worse and impact player perception if it were changed, later, when they finally get around to admitting that these types of abilities need something more to them.

Alternately: Just because one move has bad mechanics associated with it doesn't mean you should make another ability do the same.

To be honest, I'm relatively clueless as to what you're actually talking about. Could you give some specifics? What kind of suggestions for improvement are being thrown around? What exactly about the mechanics is bad? Etc.

You're not really giving me anything to work with right now.

Edited October 17, 2016 by S.C.

[Shockwave-]

On 9/18/2016 at 7:17 PM, Darkwave1098 said:

None if his abilities directly synergize with each other. That and Bladestorm is boring as hell.

good. reworking abilities so they synergism is completely lame. Frost is perfectly fine, none of his abilities synergize. Abilities should be for different challenges, Saryn's rework is terrible, having to use one ability to buff another. What you want is 4 situational abilities, that are used when the situation requires it. Note one ability that requires 4 steps to "set up" and use properly.

Edited October 17, 2016 by Shockwave-

[Nazrethim]

18 minutes ago, Shockwave- said:

good. reworking abilities so they synergism is completely lame. Frost is perfectly fine, none of his abilities synergize. Abilities should be for different challenges, Saryn's rework is terrible, having to use one ability to buff another. What you want is 4 situational abilities, that are used when the situation requires it. Note one ability that requires 4 steps to "set up" and use properly.

Synergy means that the different elements of a given system work fine on their own but can be combined for greater effect. Saryn clearly shows the problem of trying this by making it a mandatory set up as none of her abilities are particularly good on their own. Say you have a CC power and a Damage power, damage power deals sh*t damage but doubles if used against targets affected by the CC power, that there is a red flag. Synergy would be if Damage power deal good damage and got some bonus from CC power, like refunding a fraction of the cost or applying some minor dot or whatever.

[CLoneArmY]

i disagree w/ any ash nerf "rework", especially the new bladestorm. mark ur target ? just inconvinient, annoying, and too slow, compared to ember, mesa, saryn, frost, volt, nezha.
also 2k base dmg for bladestorm isn't much usefull againts lvl 50++ enemies of any faction. i prefer ember, coz it have some cc w/ 2nd skill w/ 200str/145r/175eff/106dur i usually spam 2 n 3 w/ 4 always active, w/ it i can solo sorties easily(except assassination n spy)
so far i've been using ash only to farm focus up to lvl 40ish.
dear DE,

pls kindly SCRAP that new ash bladestorm rework, and buff it instead. u can also check my account profile and see which warframe i have been using to kill which highest level of enemies.

wish all the best for DE and wish all warframe will be able to be endgame worthy (fighting lvl 100+) or at least be usefull againts lvl 100+

[(PSN)Raider_Duece]

:Coming from 180k+ Ash Vet i am definitely not in favor of this ideal with hearing how many and experiencing my self the reworks he has been threw . I hear that a lot of people complain about their kills being "stolen" which in reality wasnt their kill anyways i NEVER EVER thought Ash BladeStorm was "eazy" or "OP" . Its never been the case cant just take a low rank or crappy mod ash and expect to be OP have 3 formas into mine 17% used.

People also forget hes not very good towards lvl 100s ancients hekkas master n corpus tech those 3 alone even with my "OP" build i cannot kill them fast enough. Also not to mention around those lvls are GREATER risk of insta nerf i mean seriously i wouldn't want to take ash to lvls like that unless maybe a extermination.

 His best gamemodes are defense, survival , extermination with all that and that his invisibility is the most un used insufficient ability he has you can see he has way more flaws than his bladestorm being too "OP". I am pretty sure to those who complained about dont know either he gets stuck blade storming his clones on certain tilesets..

Thats is also one major problem with these reworks and people complaining you're gonna complain about a ability being too OP but not going to complain about their hugeee flaws.  I find bugs n glitches with EVERY frame EVERY tileset EVERY ability EVERY day some good some bad but i mean i constantly everyday see these issues but all i hear being fixed is the good things in warframe.

It is very hard to say what exactly i'd like DE to do with him because they dont even really know what to do thats why it took them so long to actually come up with this horrible having to hold bladestorm. I am myself think ash isnt perfect but hes gets the job done and think hes has his days with reworks and thats long over.

I very much know that they need to fix his bugs and glitches. A good ideal actually to make his invisibility work like loki n ivaras because if you can bring a dagger with covert lethality on it go invisible then use bladestorm n it ACTUALLY be a stealth kill those higher rounds be having a good time. As any good Ash player knows only teleport does that ON 1 ENEMY!!! Least doing that he would be more "interactive " i'd actually use his invisibility and all his abilitys.

DE gonna do what they want but they should stop and see the veterans players side before just taking words from people who used Ash 1-5%... I know this because the Ash player i found and ask who actually use him a great deal n are good with all very much dislike this rework...

Edited October 28, 2016 by (PS4)Raider_Duece

[TaylorsContraction]

5 hours ago, (PS4)Raider_Duece said:

..so forget hes not very good towards lvl 100s ancients hekkas master n crewmen those 3 alone even with my "OP" build i cannot kill them fast enough. Also not to mention around those lvls are GREATER risk of insta nerf i mean seriously i wouldn't want to take ash to lvls like that unless maybe a extermination....

I think the idea behind the rework, is to make it so that you CAN kill the enemies you mentioned, but not bother with the weak enemies that everyone can kill quickly. One of the biggest complains I've seen is "But by the time I mark an enemy my allies will have killed it...". Why mark such a low priority enemy at all? I think it's better Ash focus on marking enemies that require a lot more hits to kill, LIKE the ancients and Heykas. It takes me 2-4 sniper rifle shots to kill some of these enemies at higher levels, if someone can clean them up faster it would be welcome.

And yeah unfortunately until you get to very high lvl, most enemies can just get wiped by AoE weapons without much thought. In lower level missions, Ash's effectiveness will probably drop comparing to that of ember.

[(XBOX)Angryspy101]

2 hours ago, TaylorsContraction said:

I think the idea behind the rework, is to make it so that you CAN kill the enemies you mentioned, but not bother with the weak enemies that everyone can kill quickly. One of the biggest complains I've seen is "But by the time I mark an enemy my allies will have killed it...". Why mark such a low priority enemy at all? I think it's better Ash focus on marking enemies that require a lot more hits to kill, LIKE the ancients and Heykas. It takes me 2-4 sniper rifle shots to kill some of these enemies at higher levels, if someone can clean them up faster it would be welcome

I could've sworn ash already has an single target ability that can take out high priority targets, what was it? Teleport I believe.

[Fugana]

Its a shame they will give such a beautifull skin for Ash and than make it the most useles warframe 

[TaylorsContraction]

5 minutes ago, (XB1)CFE Angry said:

I could've sworn ash already has an single target ability that can take out high priority targets, what was it? Teleport I believe.

Yeah, it also has an augment for bonus finisher damage (Fatal Teleport). For now I am assuming that the new BS will be easier to use in an AOE fashion. Until I've tried it, I can't say much more.

[Azrael]

8 minutes ago, (XB1)CFE Angry said:

I could've sworn ash already has an single target ability that can take out high priority targets, what was it? Teleport I believe.

Yeah, this is a legit criticism, imo. Not that new BS is single target, I really think that's a bad exaggeration. But it's still much closer to teleport with the augment than old BS. I'm not sure it makes sense to make BS a slightly easier to use version of teleport.

[(PSN)Gaelic-_-Flame]

I think if they are going to "nerf" Bladestorm, they need to buff/rework his other abilities. His current state is very similar to the old Saryn, where he can just spam one ability to be pretty effective. His other abilities are not that good, especially since Bladestorm usually can do the same, just slightly better. Why launch Shurikens when you can cast Bladestorm and kill more enemies? Why teleport and kill a single enemy when you can cast Bladestorm and kill him anyways along with a few others? This rework will make it even worse, since instead of AoE bladestorm, you will have to mark every enemy. So again why use teleport/shurikens if you can just mark him with Bladestorm, especially since now it will be using less energy when used on less targets?

Both of his Shurikens and Teleport need some work to give some utility and/or synergy and a reason to use them over Bladestorm. Smoke Screen could use some buffs as well, since it's really short and not very useful in general.

[Snake]

On 10/7/2016 at 1:43 PM, TaylorsContraction said:

From Dev Stream #81:

"There has been a lot of discussion surrounding this rework, but no real answers. Well, Ash fans, we have some info for you:
In order to make Bladestorm more interactive, but keep the same feel behind the animation, we’re planning on making the following changes:

• You will now Mark the enemies that will be attacked.
• Ash will attack each Marked enemy only once, but multitaged enemies will also be taken care of by your shadows.
• Holding 4 will allow you to Mark enemies, and energy will be consumed for each Mark (instead of a toggled drain).
• A damage buff might also be included to offset the LOS nerf."

 

First cast, you're scanning, 2nd cast you activate the ability. It's not comfortable to hold abilities, just a QoL :).

The marking of enemy needs to be a toggle otherwise it will disrupt payable experience.