The Second Stream Podcast: Endless Relics, Fortress Assault, Enemy Armor, & More

[-AoN-CanoLathra-]

1. Are you interested in playing longer endless Fissure missions when they'll allow additional Relic unlocks and Trace?

Yes, but I want more than just traces. In the old void, the reason you ran missions for as long as you could, despite the increasing difficulty, was to maximize your return from expending a limited resource. Since this new system will still require one relic per prime part received, we should be getting some sort of bonus for the higher difficulty of continuing as opposed to stopping and starting again. More traces is nice, but I would need more incentive to continue. One popular idea is to slowly increase the odds of rare rewards from the relics, I.E. make it to where by Wave X, an Intact relic has the same rare reward chance a Radiant relic does at the start. This would provide higher and higher level rewards from endless relic runs, assuming you have enough relics. Of course, this may need to be capped, or else a 300 Wave Defense might be giving only rares by the end without any trace investment, AND be giving out hundreds of traces as well.

2. Fortress Assault will be a longer mission type. How long would you like it to take for you to complete?

10-20 minutes would be fine, assuming that is 10-20 minutes including breaking all containers and walking around with Prowl active all the time.

4. How often do you use Corrosive Projection instead of other Aura mods?

Not very often. I tend to use Auras for either mod capacity (Steel Charge) or energy/health regen. I do have Stand United on my Frost for stronger globes and I do use Sprint Boost for my non-combat, let's-see-just-how-fast-nehza-can-go build, but I mostly just use Steel Charge, Energy Siphon, and Rejuvination.

5. What do you think of Nightmare Mode missions being available once every 8 hours?

Considering the fact that I tend to run solo (especially with this new Friendly Fire mode), and strongly dislike Reactor Sabotage missions (which seem to make up 1/3 of the nightmare nodes), I feel like 8 hours is WAY too long. Perhaps if I already had the majority of the Nightmare mods, and the planets weren't divided into 3 groups, and I could actually finish Phobos, and nightmare spy missions had a modifier other than energy drain, then 8 hours might not be so bad.

PS: you might want to think twice about making Sands of Inaros replayable, what with the kavat sequence and all. It would make farming Kavat DNA very easy.

[Operative_Shift]

2 hours ago, TheDarkStarChimaera said:

Corrosive Projection and The Index

I very, very strongly disagree with Rob. Armor IS the fault of the scaling. Armor is a huge issue in this game. If you don't have Corrosive Projection, you are completely shut down. We do not have abilities to cut down the armor because of the huge energy drain. You can't use a finisher on the Raptor enemy. Telling us "just use Corrosive Projection and Covert Lethality" which are hugely problematic design choices, is inappropriate and ridiculous. Rob is wrong on this. Armor needs to be addressed. Please don't just go with Rob's answer of "git gud".

Here's the issue with Rob's thoughts. If you only mod for the strongest threat, you only EVER use Corrosive Projection because nothing else is dangerous. That means he's okay with Corrosive Projection being the only used Aura. He's okay with that. DE, please don't listen to that. We need diversity and meaningful choice. Armor damages that.

You've had him on this podcast enough. He's a yes-man and he's only ever contrarian to anything that questions your design choices. This podcast was supposed to have a breadth of community opinions. If you think you should defend your design choices on the podcast then do it, don't have him do it.
He's on the pilot episode, the first episode, the second episode, the third episode, the fourth episode. Is this podcast about DE and AGGP? No? Then please diversify, stop putting him in every episode just to agree with you. This is genuinely frustrating and incredibly disheartening to see you lean so heavily on an individual content creator who cannot see your flaws. That's a very troublesome social environment and it's not one I want to see you in. 

Lol I always laugh at people like this, but let's dissect this:

 

"If you don't have Corrosive Projection, you are completely shut down."

Then why do I never use it on corpus or infested runs? I've never felt shut down omitting it from literally HALF of the units in game. In addition if you're basing your argument about not being able to take on raptor without it or covert lethality, then I'd really be concerned as to your skill level, and I would BEG DE not to balance the game around your concerns. 

"If you only mod for the strongest threat, you only EVER use Corrosive Projection because nothing else is dangerous."

It's funny you say that, because a lone bursa's armor can be dispatched by a single kavat. Sooo is a lone bursa the bigger threat? or are the packs of nullifiers that may require you to have high efficiency and energy regeneration in order to recast your abilities more of the priority? As for the infested, burning them down quickly, rather than letting them use their pack buffs on you is far more important than stripping armor, in fact if you kill fast enough you won't have to worry about it. 

The thing is, there is diversity, but it seems that you've narrowed your vision onto "the hot topic of the week" and are just here to doomsay. 

"He's a yes-man and he's only ever contrarian to anything that questions your design choices."

Is that so? I mean I am currently running a series on my channel focused on crowd sourcing my viewers gripes about warframes, and coming up with reworks and solutions to the issues they have with them. Again.. it doesn't sound like you know what you're talking about. Maybe next time you decide to hurl insults, do your research.

If anything this just sounds like you don't like someone who challenges your ideas and puts forth a solid argument against them. 

[Szaeravar]

Just now, Operative_Shift said:

Lol I always laugh at people like this, but let's dissect this:

 

"If you don't have Corrosive Projection, you are completely shut down."

Then why do I never use it on corpus or infested runs? I've never felt shut down omitting it from literally HALF of the units in game. In addition if you're basing your argument about not being able to take on raptor without it or covert lethality, then I'd really be concerned as to your skill level, and I would BEG DE not to balance the game around your concerns. 

"If you only mod for the strongest threat, you only EVER use Corrosive Projection because nothing else is dangerous."

It's funny you say that, because a lone bursa's armor can be dispatched by a single kavat. Sooo is a lone bursa the bigger threat? or are the packs of nullifiers that may require you to have high efficiency and energy regeneration in order to recast your abilities more of the priority? As for the infested, burning them down quickly, rather than letting them use their pack buffs on you is far more important than stripping armor, in fact if you kill fast enough you won't have to worry about it. 

The thing is, there is diversity, but it seems that you've narrowed your vision onto "the hot topic of the week" and are just here to doomsay. 

"He's a yes-man and he's only ever contrarian to anything that questions your design choices."

Is that so? I mean I am currently running a series on my channel focused on crowd sourcing my viewers gripes about warframes, and coming up with reworks and solutions to the issues they have with them. Again.. it doesn't sound like you know what you're talking about. Maybe next time you decide to hurl insults, do your research.

If anything this just sounds like you don't like someone who challenges your ideas and puts forth a solid argument against them. 

First thing you do is question my skill level? This is why I don't want DE inviting you into everyone of these podcasts, you have a serious history of taking any directed criticism very personally, very poorly. 

High efficiency isn't Energy Siphon, especially not when Zenurik exists. Corrosive Projection also has nothing to do with Ability Efficiency, why would you bring that up? That's a non sequitur. It literally has nothing to do with choosing Corrosive Projection or no CP. 

And if you presume access to Kavats than you presume access to Focus, and Energy Overflow is one of the simplest to upgrade. 

As for the infested, burning them down quickly, rather than letting them use their pack buffs on you is far more important than stripping armor, in fact if you kill fast enough you won't have to worry about it. 
Which has nothing to do with aura choice. Picking something other than CP won't help you burn them down any faster. You generally do not want Infested Impedance because it's just a hassle, Energy Siphon is IIRC toggled OFF by any of the LOS/LineOfEffect ignoring Parasitic Eximi, so that's bad. Everything else just doesn't really have an impact. 

"the hot topic of the week"

Armor scaling is NOT just the "hot topic of the week", it's been discussed for a very long time now, and you deciding it's a non issue does not make it so. 

I mean I am currently running a series on my channel focused on crowd sourcing my viewers gripes about warframe

Yes, and if anyone tries to engage in that series in a way you don't want, you gleefully delete their comments. I've watched your videos. I like your production quality. It's very high and I appreciate that. But you do have trouble dealing with others. The Saryn Rework? You really disappointed me with that. Things were changed and you childishly insult the player base. That's not appropriate. That's not helpful. That's not what I expect from someone in your position. I expect you to show people how to get things done right with builds because you know how to do it. 

You have serious issues with anyone questioning what you perceive as your authority. You immediately attack. You have a history of doing this. You are proud and rightfully so from your work, but you need to accept that sometimes there needs to be a more open discussion, and you being on these podcasts for every single discussion shutting people down (e.g. Shield Gating where you told people that because they didn't have it in game yet they couldn't really discuss it—ridiculous, DE wants ideas now and you want to stifle them?), and more voices need to be heard. What makes you so special to be in every one of these podcasts? 

[HalfDarkShadow]

Ah, really enjoyed this one! Always look forward to these c:

As far as the topics discussed on hand....unfortunately I'm so very indifferent towards most of it.
Except for the replayable Quests bit; I feel like I'm in the minority, but man would I love to play The New Strange again! I don't remember specifics since it's been a very long time since I've played it, but that quest really did struck a chord with me and how the overall story was presented.

Also @[DE]Drew, I noticed The Silver Grove wasn't added to the poll, was that just an oversight? Because honestly I loved that quest and would definitely enjoy playing that again as well (:

---

Lastly this is in regards to feedback with the overall format itself, which for the most part I think it's going in a great direction!

One thing though when Rob mentioned his enjoyment in Archwing, reminded me of this I wanted to address that would be nice to see for future podcasts:

Spoiler

 

This is something I hope that'll stay in consideration, and I understand that there really isn't one particular individual(s) / players(s) in the community who primarily focuses on Conclave or Archwing you could bring to the podcast; but when it comes to a time either mode gets something major added (new maps, more important changes in mechanics/fundamentals, a batch of new weapon/archwing specific content, etc, etc, etc), I hope it does get talked about regarding your guys' thoughts on them in the podcasts!

It's only because I personally love Conclave for example and the small knit group we have there so hearing the outside perspective(s) of you and/or the guests you bring on their initial thoughts on lets say [hypothetically] 6 new Conclave variants get added in one whole Update or 3 new Archwing levels and a overhaul of an older one.

It's honestly just to hear someone else's thoughts who might not play either game-modes that much; if they would consider trying those new things out when they [hypothetical] release; if they find those additions/changes important for the overall health of those game-modes; etc.

 

I hope that makes sense lol. Again for consideration for future reference since their hasn't been anything major regarding those two particular game-modes since The Second Stream's inception.

Anyways, cheers!~ C:

Edited November 1, 2016 by HalfDarkShadow

[(PSN)BlitzKeir]

*cough* If I may offer some more thoughts on CP... I've never seen someone express it this particular way, and I feel it's a cleaner argument than most against the existence of CP.

Most auras allow you to emphasize a given playstyle, while providing a stacking benefit to your squad. Rejuvenation, for instance, gives you better sustainability if you're good at evasion, and helps to counter incoming status procs. Amps let you specialize in a particular weapon type. Growing Power lets you synergize status with a potentially extreme power buff. Capitalizing on these auras requires skill and specialization.

CP doesn't require skill. It has no association with any playstyle. It's just a flat reduction in enemy stats. This would make sense as a weapon mod that ignores a % of armor (although treading into 'mandatory mod' territory), but as a global enemy nerf that can stack up to 100%? Yes its effect is profound, but A) it replaces options that would emphasize skill and specialization, B) it's boring, and C) it means that, regardless of any work DE puts into balancing the game, players have the option of just removing it.

My sincere opinion is that CP should be removed from the game (or at least disabled) as part of enemy balance changes, and armor should be rebalanced with the assurance that players are able to cripple enemies only by skillful application of powers and status types.

[Operative_Shift]

1 hour ago, TheDarkStarChimaera said:

First thing you do is question my skill level? This is why I don't want DE inviting you into everyone of these podcasts, you have a serious history of taking any directed criticism very personally, very poorly. 

High efficiency isn't Energy Siphon, especially not when Zenurik exists. Corrosive Projection also has nothing to do with Ability Efficiency, why would you bring that up? That's a non sequitur. It literally has nothing to do with choosing Corrosive Projection or no CP. 

And if you presume access to Kavats than you presume access to Focus, and Energy Overflow is one of the simplest to upgrade. 

As for the infested, burning them down quickly, rather than letting them use their pack buffs on you is far more important than stripping armor, in fact if you kill fast enough you won't have to worry about it. 
Which has nothing to do with aura choice. Picking something other than CP won't help you burn them down any faster. You generally do not want Infested Impedance because it's just a hassle, Energy Siphon is IIRC toggled OFF by any of the LOS/LineOfEffect ignoring Parasitic Eximi, so that's bad. Everything else just doesn't really have an impact. 

"the hot topic of the week"

Armor scaling is NOT just the "hot topic of the week", it's been discussed for a very long time now, and you deciding it's a non issue does not make it so. 

I mean I am currently running a series on my channel focused on crowd sourcing my viewers gripes about warframe

Yes, and if anyone tries to engage in that series in a way you don't want, you gleefully delete their comments. I've watched your videos. I like your production quality. It's very high and I appreciate that. But you do have trouble dealing with others. The Saryn Rework? You really disappointed me with that. Things were changed and you childishly insult the player base. That's not appropriate. That's not helpful. That's not what I expect from someone in your position. I expect you to show people how to get things done right with builds because you know how to do it. 

You have serious issues with anyone questioning what you perceive as your authority. You immediately attack. You have a history of doing this. You are proud and rightfully so from your work, but you need to accept that sometimes there needs to be a more open discussion, and you being on these podcasts for every single discussion shutting people down (e.g. Shield Gating where you told people that because they didn't have it in game yet they couldn't really discuss it—ridiculous, DE wants ideas now and you want to stifle them?), and more voices need to be heard. What makes you so special to be in every one of these podcasts? 

 

"First thing you do is question my skill level?"

I'm sorry, but the fact is when you make comments to suggest balancing armor around the RAPTOR, and call swapping in a single mod getting "gud" of course I'm going to question your level of skill. See the things is, while everyone is entitled to their own opinion, some opinions should clearly be weighted heavier than others.. and by the looks of your arguments it doesn't seem like you really know what you're talking about. 

"High efficiency isn't Energy Siphon, especially not when Zenurik exists"

High efficiency is AIDED by energy siphon, and while Zenurik DOES exist, so does Naramon. You said it yourself, diversity paramount.. why would you expect everyone to run Zenurik?

"Corrosive Projection also has nothing to do with Ability Efficiency, why would you bring that up? That's a non sequitur. It literally has nothing to do with choosing Corrosive Projection or no CP."

Lol, maybe you were too busy trying to formulate a response rather than to actually listen to the argument to keep up with the discussion.. but Energy Siphon was discussed because you stated that only ever modding for the biggest threat would make CP the only option. However, high efficiency and energy regeneration from ES (which is an aura you can swap corrosive projection out for) will help you with recasting buffs after dealing with nullifiers. 

And as for dealing with Infested.. "Picking something other than CP won't help you burn them down any faster."

Umm.. I'm sorry but have you never heard of, Steel Charge? Rifle Amp? Growing Power? These are all mods that can be slotted in to help you burn down the infested. If you kill the Tar-Moa's before they get their buffs off (which isn't a hard thing to do) you have NO armor to deal with. Again, your lack of experience is showing itself, which really hurts your argument. You need to do more research before latching on to "the hot topic of the week".

"Yes, and if anyone tries to engage in that series in a way you don't want, you gleefully delete their comments."

Is that so? The only time I've ever stated that I would delete comments is when someone gets off topic on the crossfire, aside from that, the comments are FLOWING with many perspectives. So.. again your ignorance betrays you. 

"The Saryn Rework? You really disappointed me with that."

LOL why? because I disagreed with you? This is sounding more and more like you don't like your ideals being challenged. 

"I expect you to show people how to get things done right with builds because you know how to do it. "

And I did ;D

"being on these podcasts for every single discussion shutting people down (e.g. Shield Gating where you told people that because they didn't have it in game yet they couldn't really discuss it"

So you're saying that we should talk about things that haven't even been introduced into the dev build.. something the team hasn't even tested.. something that has not been introduced to the general population to use in their missions. So you want us to speak ignorantly about something we've never had in game? Let the dev team test it, ship it out to us, and we'll be the judge when we get it into our hands.. instead of day dreaming with no facts to actually bring to the table. 

"What makes you so special to be in every one of these podcasts?"

Frankly.. I'm not special. I'm just rational and have common sense. 

[_Iye]

Endless Relic Gameplay
• After 5 waves/5 minutes, you'll have the option to equip a new Relic for the next round

- Another relic burnout source without having enough easy sources of farming them, interceptions and some defenses having inconsistent drop tables are not suitable enough to farm relics. New addition to the grind system. Well done.

Suggestion: Add relic drops in more missions such as sabotage (void, reactor, hive) with the condition of finding at least 2 caches and all the T4 tier void missions (such as mobile defense, IKR) can also have a relic in their drop tables.

• Void Traces earned will increase as you push further in endless missions

- Well at-least its expected and this increased rewarding method should be applied to the upcoming endless relic missions-

As players go further in the mission their chances of getting rare items will also increase by a certain percentage, this will help players get into the mood to burn their hard earned relics in hope of what they want. But rather I actually prefer using only one relic like the old system but you can make the condition to 'Radiant use only' to make it somewhat worthy; if not then at least 4 rotations for using 1 radiant-3 rotations for 1 exceptional relic and so on.

• Every 5 Waves will refresh your reactant count, so make sure you pick them up! (Collected from Warframe site)

- Though its so normal that you have to collect reactants to open the relic but think, after every session you gotta run for those shinies leaving yourself open at that stage when killing enemies become real trouble (100+...?) (and least of all problematic issues! but still)

Suggestion: Can it be done like as players go further, the reactant requirement will also get reduced with a cap level; like, -1 relic for every 5/10 waves/minutes (2 relic sessions) and wont get reduced below 5 reactants.

Edited November 1, 2016 by AhmadIYE

[Chipputer]

1 hour ago, Operative_Shift said:

So you're saying that we should talk about things that haven't even been introduced into the dev build.. something the team hasn't even tested.. something that has not been introduced to the general population to use in their missions. So you want us to speak ignorantly about something we've never had in game? Let the dev team test it, ship it out to us, and we'll be the judge when we get it into our hands.. instead of day dreaming with no facts to actually bring to the table.

This is where I step in.

Hi, I sub to your channel, appreciate your opinions, bought and willingly use the Officium Syandana on all of my frames, etc, etc. Trust me when I say that what I want to tell you is coming from a place of love, and not hate, but that I might not be able to word it in a way that sounds that way:

You tend to talk over and shut down any discussions you don't want to have happen based on this quoted paragraph's logic. It's not really sound to say that we shouldn't discuss things until DE has a working prototype-- how do you think they get their ideas? Even if they are currently working on an iteration of something, assuming that there is no value in discussing what you think the system should work like is shortsighted and, frankly, wrong. It stifles a valuable source of feedback.

I don't find fault with you for having this personality quirk to yourself, though. Everyone is different and that's just the way it is. I find fault that the hosts aren't asking you to stand down so that way some off the wall discussions can happen that could serve as the catalyst for a new, great system in the game, or serve as material for DE to make revisions to systems before they're implemented so that kinks are worked out before they're shipped to the live build.

Edited November 1, 2016 by Chipputer

[Operative_Shift]

50 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

You tend to talk over and shut down any discussions you don't want to have happen based on this quoted paragraph's logic. It's not really sound to say that we shouldn't discuss things until DE has a working prototype-- how do you think they get their ideas? Even if they are currently working on an iteration of something, assuming that there is no value in discussing what you think the system should work like is shortsighted and, frankly, wrong. It stifles a valuable source of feedback.

But see that's the issue. They already have their idea, shield gating is a very simple concept; shields block one hit kills.

In addition I believe the quote was.. "Honestly that what sitting around and letting it be playtested for, because right now like they said it is in conceptual design. Let them figure it out first, then we'll figure it out as it goes." 

In no way is this saying don't give them feedback, but we need something to give them feedback on to begin with, as opposed to an abstraction that we ourselves can't take into the game and test. Speaking without knowing is one of the biggest issues that plague our community, so without knowing anything, we can't make an educated statement. 

And as for "hosts aren't asking [me] to stand down" I don't believe my statement "walled" the conversation whatsoever, in fact it continued for another 6+ minutes. With me adding "and maybe that's what this conversation is really going to be good for, is to really kind of like say, what can we really do for shields? So while we may not have the solutions right now, at least it's like the conversation to say what can we explore?"

So please, let's not take a single statement I've made and base an entire judgement of my character on it, to the point where you think I need to be "shushed".

[AM-Bunny]

It's poor conduct to publicly disparage Rob's character - or that of any specific player. If you have a problem with his recurring presence on the podcast, I think it would be prudent to phrase criticisms less personally or initiate a private conversation with Drew or one of the other members involved in the podcast.

[OvisCaedo]

Hmm. If I actually felt like forma'ing my auras, I'd probably just leave corrosive projection on everyone. I don't care about it particularly much, though, since I tend to play solo and its effects are only really pronounced with several of them.

Still, as someone who doesn't like melee, steel charge being pretty good isn't exciting to me. Except I still run it over any amp mod because it gives more capacity and the relative impact of the amp mods is not something I'm likely to ever notice. Growing power could be interesting if I had it, but I doubt I'd ever forma a frame who wasn't v-polarity to start with to accomodate it, because I can't imagine it being more helpful feeling than corrosive projection in the only gameplay situation I personally run where I think the aura would make a significant impact (grineer sorties).

Some other people have mentioned wishing that the aura slot was free from polarity so you could actually be flexible with it and coordinating with the team. I think I'd like that and would probably try out a lot more things with it.

on the topic of those polarities though: why would you DO that to Brief Respite? It feels almost like bullying to put an aura in its own polarity group completely by itself.

Edited November 1, 2016 by OvisCaedo

[Kethus]

I wont play endless defense missions because each wave is longer than the last and staying in the mission doesn't compensate for the skipping of a loading screen.

I want to replay The Jordas Precept because I somehow lost my Atlas blueprint, accidentally sold it probably, and now I can't build him. All quests that reward warfames should be repeatable. You can rewatch cutscenes in YouTube.

[Yrveth]

1. Are you interested in playing longer endless Fissure missions when they'll allow additional Relic unlocks and Trace?

Probably not. In the past the allure of endless Void was getting more prime parts per key. Though I don't mean to condemn the new system, those extra Trace drops would have to be pretty significant to make it worth staying instead of spamming shorter, lower effort missions.

2. Fortress Assault will be a longer mission type. How long would you like it to take for you to complete?

Sabotage can already take 15 minutes if looking for caches solo, a 20-30 minute mission is not that much longer. Though it's really a matter of how that length is accomplished. If, for example, there's a 15 minute defence as a sub-objective, that may be a bit tedious. It's also important to make the rewards worth the time investment. I also worry about potentially failing a mission that took that long and ending up with nothing for your time.

3. Which quests do you want to replay the most? (can select more than one)

Most of them, especially the more lore-heavy ones, and the early ones where I didn't know I can scan friendly NPCs :")

4. How often do you use Corrosive Projection instead of other Aura mods?

Hardly ever, only if I notice everyone else in the squad has it equipped and we're doing something with expected horrible armour scaling. I do feel like I'm shooting myself in the foot for not using it always, though.

Edited November 1, 2016 by Belgard
forgot a number

[TGDM]

2 minutes ago, Operative_Shift said:

But see that's the issue. They already have their idea, shield gating is a very simple concept; shields block one hit kills.

In addition I believe the quote was.. "Honestly that what sitting around and letting it be playtested for, because right now like they said it is in conceptual design. Let them figure it out first, then we'll figure it out as it goes." 

I don't want to get too mixed up in what's going on in the forums here but... Well here I am so :V

We raised a lot of good points during that discussion. We were anticipating problems with the initially presented design - which may or may not be what ends up going live - and listed ways we would want to see this system implemented and which pitfalls we could avoid. I forgot who said it, but someone made a great point that ultimately shield gating would not encourage you to build shields at all if the effect would be the same regardless of total shield value. I even posed the question of "what would we want shields to be?" to get into the design philosophy. Though none of us brought it up, an internal cooldown on the shield gating mechanic could help avoid the cheese but still wouldn't really give an incentive to build up shields in most cases. Nor did we really talk about big-damage multi-hits (like volleys of rockets and the like). There are many things to consider because Warframe's design has a great deal of variety between incoming damage types and supporting options.

As I re-listened to the segment, almost every response you gave was along the lines of "we should wait to talk about this" culminated by a final "... and that's why I think it's a little bit dangerous to have a conversation about this right now in this state." I appreciate your enthusiasm and point of view, but surely you can see the value in discussing these things before they're added to the game.

DE has done a lot of great things with Warframe, but as Rebecca mentioned on the latest episode it's rarely ever done completely right the first time. Imagine what "The Vacuum Within" would have been like if they stuck to the original plan of splitting it into 3 mods. You've been around long enough to see stuff added to the game that was just flawed at the conceptual level by now. You've been around long enough to know that even though something can still be fun, it's not necessarily good design. I mean just look at the Sniper rework with the new combo counter system... Putting aside the hip-fire penalty stuff, how often do you perch up to start sniping in Warframe? Maybe you like that system a lot, but I find it kind of useless. Definitely not worth using Harkonar Scope. There are quite a few things that are neat ideas, but perhaps implemented poorly and could be improved upon at a conceptual level. Even something like being able to name your Kubrow/Kavat before you see what it looks like when fully matured is problematic by design (and could be remedied with some adjustment).

I'm just saying that there have been a few times where you've stifled the conversation a little bit when it comes to brainstorming or offering criticism. Considering one of our main objectives in the podcast is to discuss the contents shown on the devstream, it can be very limited to the conversation if you adamantly stand by the "need something to give them feedback on to begin with." I've enjoyed our discussions and I hope we continue them in the future. I think our discussion about Armor in particular was a healthy display of conflicting opinions, for example. I know that I have my own hangups and propensity to belabor points that don't matter, so feel free to let me know how to improve too!

[FrostedMike]

I voted "no opinion" about how much time assult missions will take because "other" wasn't an option.
I like to do short missions because of stuff in real life that require me to unexpectedly leave the computer for an unknown amount of time. For short: I can be AFK and it can cost my team the whole mission (it happened alot). I usually carry the team, but thats their problem.
I would like to do longer missions, but afraid to fail my team for personal resons...

I think that a good time for the assult missions will be 5 to 15 minutes.

[Operative_Shift]

1 minute ago, TGDM said:

As I re-listened to the segment, almost every response you gave was along the lines of "we should wait to talk about this" culminated by a final "... and that's why I think it's a little bit dangerous to have a conversation about this right now in this state." I appreciate your enthusiasm and point of view, but surely you can see the value in discussing these things before they're added to the game.

I highly dissagree, the fact is without having it in game for a large number of players to playtest we don't discover all of the exploits, all of extremely niche mechanics that can be combined with any one specific thing. So while talking is nice, actually having something solid to base a conversation on is more effective. 

 

6 minutes ago, TGDM said:

as Rebecca mentioned on the latest episode it's rarely ever done completely right the first time. Imagine what "The Vacuum Within" would have been like if they stuck to the original plan of splitting it into 3 mods.

Lol lets face it, with all of the 2.0's and even a few 3.0's its proof positive that we NEED to have it in game to be able to truly gauge how something is going to work. Cutting it down 6m and making it passive may have freed up a slot (which in discussion sounds nice), but as we saw its implementation IN GAME fell quite short, just furthering the fact that we need to HAVE something before we can provide feedback for it. 

 

10 minutes ago, TGDM said:

You've been around long enough to see stuff added to the game that was just flawed at the conceptual level by now. You've been around long enough to know that even though something can still be fun, it's not necessarily good design.

You're right, I have been around, and I've been around long enough to know that players aren't good at providing solutions as they do not know what tools or mechanics are available to the development team, BUT.. they are instead MUCH BETTER at telling people what's wrong, and we can't know whats wrong without it being in peoples hands. 
 

13 minutes ago, TGDM said:

I'm just saying that there have been a few times where you've stifled the conversation a little bit when it comes to brainstorming or offering criticism.

I think that's more of an issue of clashing ideals. As we both make it very apparent, we tend to not stand on the same side on many issues. The fact is it's always going to be hard to offer criticism when you have someone there that can challenge the faults in your argumentation. Let's face it, the stronger a statement is, the harder it is to poke holes into. As you've stated, I've been around for quite awhile, I have a good amount of experience, and I have a very wide audience that takes many different stances (and makes sure that I hear every word of it lol). So, when a point of view is presented that doesn't quite float, it's a part of my job in the community to point out the issues in it.

 

24 minutes ago, TGDM said:

I've enjoyed our discussions and I hope we continue them in the future. I think our discussion about Armor in particular was a healthy display of conflicting opinions, for example.

The funniest part of it all is, as argumentative as we were on the stream, we stayed for.. what? LOL like 2 almost 3 more hours afterwards continuing the discussion.. too bad no one can see the laughs we had there, instead I'm just gonna be painted as some hardass villain XD

[Orcot]

CP is a giant "cop-out", every faction has units that use armor of some kind and those same units happen to be the most powerful units of said faction!  To say it's the player's fault that the game has only one solution to every difficult enemy is ridiculous!  Something needs to be done about armor's damage mitigation or damage types.

 

Assault sounds like a really cool game-mode, hope the rewards make the time spent worth it.

[gluih]

1. I don't play any endless missions to open relics right now. I usually try to run missions that can be finished quickly.

A few thoughts on players wanting endless back:
Staying very long in an endless mission was never a great way to farm prime parts. Actually having to invest a large amount of time without pause was a big downside. Overall just getting more relics and going for 20 waves/minutes was the overall "better" way to farm imo.
So what players liked about the endless mode was mostly the illusion of being rewarded for beating a more challenging mission.
Simply being able to select another relic won't be the reward that those players want. To me the idea of having an increased chance at a rare drop without having to invest traces sounds like a good enough reward for staying longer.

2. New Nightmare mode:

I have been able to get the new Nightmare mods very quickly out of the new system. So to me the 8 hour reset timer seems fine. Of course this makes it harder to farm them, but I just don't think that's a lot of fun anyway. It is more enjoyable to do some farming and to take a break. I personally really hate loaded drop table, where some items have a higher chance to drop. So overall it is easy enough to get the nightmare mods in the new system (actually all the things in warframe are pretty easy to get).

2 things I would change however:
I would put animal instinct into the low level missions and put blaze into the high level mission instead. Animal instinct is a great QoL mod that is great for new players. Blaze on the other hand is a an extremely powerful mod that only works on shotguns. Maybe it's just because blaze used to be so hard to get.
When nightmare shows up in high level void missions, they should give the hard rewards.

3. Armor scaling:

I use corrosive projection almost all the time. Only a few warframes of my warframes still have a V or a D in the aura slot but if I had more time I would probably forma them aswell. In low level missions, I would rather have energy siphon, loot radar or enemy radar, most of the time, but I'm too lazy to switch out the corrosive projection and then switch it back in when I want to have it for higher level content.
Corrosive projection also isn't a very interesting way to deal with armor. Part of what I don't like about the whole situation is that I don't know how the different ways of dealing with armor interact with each other. Having 4 corrosive projections removes armor completly. But what happens when you reduce the armor by 50% with the aura and then by another 50% with a warframe ability. My guess would be that the enemy would still have 25% armor, but I don't have a good way to tell what's actually happening. When going into high level missions, you have to be prepared to deal with armor. That's fine. What's not fine imo is that the best way to do that is bringing corrosive projection. The most effective way of dealing with armor should be a combination of warframes powers, focus abilities, corrosive procs and corrosive projection and using effective damage types (radiation, puncture, corrosive).
So overall the other ways to deal with armor scaling should be more effective (especially the focus abilities).

I also think looking into how armor scales would be a good thing. The ehp scaling should be similar between the 3 ways of scaling (only hp, shield+ hp, hp with armor). So the combination of armor*hp should be similar to hp+shield. It is good, that armor becomes more important in higher levels, but simply increasing armor and hp at the same is too much.

4. Really looking forward to fortress assault. Spy and the new sabotage missions(reactor, hive and the ones on uranus) are some of the most enjoyable parts of warframe imo. I still think that there should be relics in sabotage caches, so there is an actual reason to run them. I also hope that some of the less interesting mission types like exterminate and survival get some changes, similar to the new sabotage missions. Having side objectives like the caches is great and at least some of the nodes should be replaced over time.

[Cray]

Regarding Corrosive Projection

 

This is armor scaling as we know it: Armor = BaseArmor * (1 + (((Level - BaseLevel) ^ 1.75) / 200))  It is because of this scaling that Corrosive Projections become (almost) mandatory once you get into level 150+ fights (lower if you aren't using 'meta' gear).

My suggestion: Change the exponent from 1.75 to 1.6. Here's a graph showing the difference:

Then (and only then), would it be reasonable to 'touch' Corrosive Projection, and I would reduce it to remove less than 100% with 4. But I wouldn't stop there. I would also give the other auras a bit of a buff.

My reasoning:

Spoiler

The problem with Corrosive Projection is that it's simply too powerful, but it's also a bandaid for the ridiculous amount of armor scaling that happens. We have numerous weapons and powers in the game that are capable of either stripping or bypassing armor, but they all go underappreciated because "dude, just bring 4xCP". My armor-stripping monsters, the Strun Wraith, Boar Prime, and Akstiletto Prime are perfect examples: I seldom equip them for their armor stripping capability anymore, because any time we expect to need that sort firepower, we just bring CPs instead. Reducing the effectiveness of this aura would add value to the alternative methods of dealing with armor, but to touch only Corrosive Projection and nothing else would be nothing short of punitive.

This is why I suggest toning down the armor scaling as well, and in a way that has effectively no impact on low levels, and a barely perceptible impact on mid-levels. Will this make higher-level missions easier? Yes, but not in ways that were previously impossible, because we already have complete armor negation as the status quo. This setup gives us a nice middle-ground, similar to having 2-3xCP. Enemies will overall have less armor, but we won't be able to completely and utterly negate it anymore.

But as I said, I wouldn't stop at just Corrosive Projection: Many auras are underwhelming, and the use of polarities on them only serves to limit our options even more. The sheer power of having Corrosive Projection means that a lot of us simply put 'dashes' for our aura slot, resulting in numerous auras going unused simply because we couldn't fit them if we tried. Ideally, I'd say make all auras use the old fusion core polarity, and allow us to freely pick any aura we wish with no fear of loss of capacity. In reality, that probably won't happen, so as a backup idea, I'd like to see the number of polarities used for auras reduced to 2. Everything either a 'dash' or a 'v', no more 'd' or 'equals'.

 

[(PSN)VariantX7]

I'm not so concerned with length than I am with variety and rewards though a good length mission is nice to have. If its 15-20 minutes long and the rewards are sucky, you've basically made a map that will last 2 weeks for its newness and everyone goes back to defense and interception to farm relics again. Still, fortress assault is more of what I would like in Warframe. I'm looking forward to seeing more of these maps made for more tilesets too. If its successful, I hope to see one of these on each world. Hopefully with a lot of hand-crafted elements to make each map stand out from each other since some worlds share tilesets

[(PSN)A_SimpleName]

1. Are you interested in playing longer endless Fissure missions when they'll allow additional Relic unlocks and Trace?

Incentives. It'll boils down to how much more extra traces I am going to get. If the number is far under 100 extra traces (not including the normal 6-30 per relic), then I don't see the "benefit" of running endless mission. Personally, I play endless for fun (the difficulties), but it's difficult to convince clan mates to group up when there are little incentive for them to do so. Another of my main problem with endless is that it takes too long to amp up the excitement. 

• I rather there will be a high level node (starting lvl 100+) to sate my appetite of wanting to use my overly forma-ed gears (that I'd worked hard and spend time to obtain).
  • Incentive is 24/7 access to XP (Focus), Normal Reward Table, and Challenge/Fun. 
• I don't care if that "endless" only last 15-20 minutes. At the very least, I don't have to sleep through the first hour to get to the thrill.

2. Fortress Assault will be a longer mission type. How long would you like it to take for you to complete?

It's not how long the mission will be. It's what rewards are uncovered at the mission end screen. Novelty of mission get old fast. Unless there are good rewards with decent drop rate, people will experience it and forget (think Ship Sabotage).   

3. Which quests do you want to replay the most? (can select more than one)

Main quests that have substantial story content. Frame quests if the items are re-obtainable.

4. How often do you use Corrosive Projection instead of other Aura mods?

Rarely. 99% of the contents are too easy to warrant it. The 1% when it's needed is when the game don't want you to play anymore as it uses Armor as a band-aid for lackluster challenging game-play (read: adding a time sump without requiring extra skillful tactics to overcome; bullet sponge). If CP is the only aura that's good for high level content, then something is wrong. The other auras need buffs to level the playing field.

 If ever I do equip CP, it's either

• I want to kill this boss in 1 sec vs 10 sec
• I want a reason to not resort to Covert Lethality
• I am eating a pizza and wanted to grate the extra cheesy armor scaling on top

5. What do you think of Nightmare Mode missions being available once every 8 hours?

N/A Not yet release on console.

Edited November 1, 2016 by (PS4)A_SimpleName

[Sarkkhan]

As someone who has limited playtime, I really need to maximize efficiency of my relic use.  I just don't have time to grind tons of relics, plus I have average to bad luck in actually getting them (or at least the new ones).  Doing endless missions where it is 1 relic/round is not an attractive option.  There needs to be an incentive other than the void traces that applies in the mission.  That could be multiple rolls from one relic, auto upgrading of a relic as the rounds progress, etc, but there has to be reward commensurate with time investment and enemy difficulty.  The change as proposed is "you "get to" spend more than one relic per mission and that is not appealing.

[Chipputer]

9 hours ago, AM-Bunny said:

It's poor conduct to publicly disparage Rob's character - or that of any specific player.

I disagree. When someone is publicly putting their opinions out there, particularly in a small group discussion, and you feel that they may or may not be disruptive to the proceedings, the quickest way to get that across is to tell them, directly. There is a right and wrong way to do that, however, and while I believe a valid point was brought up, the initial comment was in poor taste.

8 hours ago, TGDM said:

I know that I have my own hangups and propensity to belabor points that don't matter, so feel free to let me know how to improve too!

This is the main takeaway.

Rob can be a little overbearing, but that's who he is. He comes in hard, he comes in fast, and he gets what he wants to say out whether you like it or not. I have a few issues with when and why, but now that I've aired my displeasure, I will leave it in the hands of the individual person or the host to do with what they will.

All of you guys, on that podcast, are different and each of you comes in with whatever quirks you do or don't have. That's what makes this a healthy community. If my only complaint, so far, has been that someone tends to be a little more forceful with their opinions than others then it must be going pretty well.

[Chroia]

20 hours ago, Chroia said:

Are you interested in playing longer endless Fissure missions when they'll allow additional Relic unlocks and Trace?

> Other

Seems to me that people want endless void back for the multiple rewards per key.

While that's a nice bonus, I play(ed) endless missions because there was enemy level and density scaling. ofc, finding the 'sweet spot' meant ~4 minutes of intense, frenetic play after ~35-42 minutes of no-challenge, but them's the breaks.

I've actually been hoping that the clan mission crafting would address that, letting players skip the initial under-powered, sparse buildup.

I rather miss Diablo 2's '/players #' command.

-----

Beyond that, I liked endless because you don't have the breaks in play/flow that constantly extracting and restarting cause. I could just continue playing, ignoring the clock and accruing rewards for as long as I could survive was in the mood.
With all the good intentions in the world, I don't see how you can implement 'endless relics' unobtrusively enough that I wouldn't be as well off just restarting.

Of course, rewards drive engagement, and adding additional extrinsic rewards ought to do the trick (if they outweigh the inconvenience anyway, which is ymmv).

I just realised that I made a really dumb mistake.
I'm saying 'endless', but I'm talking only about Survival. So, correcting that in my previous post and adding the correction here as well.

Are you interested in playing longer endless Fissure missions when they'll allow additional Relic unlocks and Trace?

> Other

Seems to me that people want endless void back for the multiple rewards per key.

Now, let me make a distinction: There are 2 kinds of endless, those with stay/go screens and discrete rounds - meaning Interception and Defense - henceforth 'staggered endless', and those without - Survival and Excavation, or 'continuous endless'.

While multiple rewards per key's a nice bonus, I play continuous endless missions because there was enemy level and density scaling. ofc, finding the 'sweet spot' meant ~4 minutes of intense, frenetic play after ~35-42 minutes of no-challenge, but them's the breaks.
Thankfully, it's a lot less in Excavation, but even there, the changes to the game mode - twice, no less - have harmed the gameplay immensely, and are apparently here to stay. >;[

I don't touch staggered endless with a 10 foot pole.
Game-flow in Defense has not improved with the changes to spawns, imo. I find the staggered, slow-travelling spawn-waves tedious in the extreme, and the constant breaks in action (15 sec per wave, not including new-spawn travel time; and 'stay/go') to be immersion breaking.
Most Interception is better, in regards to... idk what to call it. 'Action uptime'?, with the Conclave map (Berehynia) being the exception - as it's built by design to limit contact outside the main areas.
But even then, the constant start-stop bothers me.

I've actually been hoping that the clan mission crafting would address that, letting players skip the initial under-powered, sparse buildup.

I rather miss Diablo 2's '/players #' command.

-----

Beyond that, I liked continuous endless because you don't have the breaks in play/flow that constantly extracting and restarting cause in staggered endless. I could just continue playing, ignoring the clock and accruing rewards for as long as I could survive was in the mood.
With all the good intentions in the world, I don't see how you can implement 'endless relics' unobtrusively enough that I wouldn't be as well off just restarting.

Of course, rewards drive engagement, and adding additional extrinsic rewards ought to do the trick (if they outweigh the inconvenience anyway, which is ymmv).

[windsofdestruction]

You need to think more to make changes reasonable, why should I go further on endless mission for a higher enemy level but without better reward? I can just start a new one!

If there's no other reward buff, its almost meaningless to make this change.