Why i believe removing 'Friendly Fire' modifier wasn't the right call

[EmptyDevil]

This will basically be a list of why i think it should have stayed or why it should come back in the future.

 

- It was clearly advertised on the node what the nightmare modifier was.

- It could have been limited to having an existence of 1 ~ 2 nodes at any given time.

- Damage sources that come from other players could have been reduced by 99%.

- AoE abilities from players could have ignored targeting other players.

- Preventing companions and allies from attacking players would have been good too.

- Many players actually enjoyed this with friends.

- It added a new layer of challenge for some and another thrill for those that enjoy dangerous missions.

- It highlighted some glaring issues with certain weapon designs and playstyles. Mainly the Simulor series and Tonkor.
 

Please consider polishing the modifier to make it less grief-able mode, then bring it back.

[Dualstar]

8 minutes ago, EmptyDevil said:

• Damage sources that come from other players could have been reduced by 99%.
• AoE abilities from players could have ignored targeting other players.
• Preventing companions and allies from attacking players would have been good too.

• Defeats the point of having a Friendly Fire mode.

10 minutes ago, EmptyDevil said:

• It added a new layer of challenge for some and another thrill for those that enjoy dangerous missions.

• Added a fantastic way to grief players who just wanted thier nightmare mods.

12 minutes ago, EmptyDevil said:

• It highlighted some glaring issues with certain weapon designs and playstyles. Mainly the Simulor series and Tonkor.

(Why am i bulletpointing my replies...)

People have been highlighting the issues surrounding the Tonkor, Simulors, Mirage, Ash, and cheap AoE in general for years.

[Pizzarugi]

20 minutes ago, EmptyDevil said:

- Many players actually enjoyed this with friends.

It aggravated people like me who doesn't have many active Warframe friends, yet likes to play in public sessions.

If I want to do those missions, I would have to play solo and I don't like playing solo unless absolutely necessary.

Edited November 3, 2016 by Pizzarugi

[GinKenshin]

Agreed. It's like going to a pizza place and complain that they don't serve burgers >.> 

 

 if it was random, then by all means remove it, but it clearly says the condition. Also just reducing the NM cycle from 8 hours to 4 or something is better, since iirc, the complain was "I only play X hours and all the NM mission I wanna farm are FF" 

 

 people should stop acting like they have to do missions >.> 

[(PSN)Shaun-T-Wilson]

Only PK and trolls like this modifier.

[Gelkor]

Like I've said in previous threads, only problem I had with the name, it was false advertising. If it was called Solo no Companions Mode it would have made much more sense.

[EmptyDevil]

7 minutes ago, Dualstar said:

• Defeats the point of having a Friendly Fire mode.

• Added a fantastic way to grief players who just wanted thier nightmare mods.

(Why am i bulletpointing my replies...)

People have been highlighting the issues surrounding the Tonkor, Simulors, Mirage, Ash, and cheap AoE in general for years.

A damage reduction to damage from other players does not defeat the point when you consider how much damage you can actually do with PVE mods. 1% damage of 50,000 is still enough to put some hurt into someone, if not careful.

Tell me, why would you go to a node that has potential griefing, when there a multiple other nightmare nodes active to do that aren't 'Friendly Fire'? Doesn't seem like sound logic.

Oh no! I wasn't aware that people have been complaining about cheese for years! Still, it's highlighting the issue again.

 

2 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

It aggravated people like me who doesn't have many active Warframe friends, yet likes to play in public sessions.

If I want to do those missions, I would have to play solo and I don't like playing solo unless absolutely necessary.

You could always choose one of the many nodes that weren't 'Friendly Fire'.

[Calwon5]

41 minutes ago, EmptyDevil said:

 

- It added a new layer of challenge for some and another thrill for those that enjoy dangerous missions.

Please consider polishing the modifier to make it less grief-able mode, then bring it back.

If I wanted to play PVP, I would've done so already. Except this is PVE, please don't introduce any sort of friendly fire. It's annoying and someone WILL exploit it.

The only new layer of challenge is avoiding death from your own teammates. Which is stupid if you ask me. 

Edit: Having some nodes that aren't friendly fire is not a answer that will be sufficient. It's like you're saying:  Oh, you don't like that? Don't play it. Yeah. NO.

Edited November 3, 2016 by Calwon5

[Dualstar]

Just now, EmptyDevil said:

A damage reduction to damage from other players does not defeat the point when you consider how much damage you can actually do with PVE mods. 1% damage of 50,000 is still enough to put some hurt into someone, if not careful.

Your point being?

No seriously, how is this supposed to support your argument.

The only conclusion i can draw right now is that youre a griefer and you want to prey on newbies who have no chance of taking you out before you do them.

4 minutes ago, EmptyDevil said:

Tell me, why would you go to a node that has potential griefing, when there a multiple other nightmare nodes active to do that aren't 'Friendly Fire'? Doesn't seem like sound logic.

1. It doesnt seem you have realised, but Nightmare Mods, can only be obtained by doing Nightmare Missions. Whether its for personal use or to sell them, they have to come from somewhere.
2. Our lord and saviour the RNG wont simply hand over the mod youre looking for, if one happens to be desperate for a particular mod they will seek out every chance they can take at getting it.
3. People still play Radiation Hazard Sorties, which usually play out more or less the same way.

One more thing;

45 minutes ago, EmptyDevil said:

• Many players actually enjoyed this with friends.

Theres a Dojo room you can biuld which allows for unrestricted duelling.

[-CCC-Secret]

If Friendly Fire was just at 1 node at a time, why are you guys so against it? I personally wanted to play it with friends, but never got to.

There's 6 Hard Missions, 6 Medium Missions and 4 Easy Mission planets that offer Nightmare nodes. If your concern is players ruining the newbie experience, then offer Friendly Fire only at Hard/Medium Missions and only one of it at a time. I'm pretty sure newbies don't have access to Sedna, Pluto, Neptune, Lua, Eris or Uranus yet, much less have all the nodes there completed. Last I checked, people need to finish all the nodes on a planet to unlock Nightmare mode on that planet.

This way it won't ever affect those that don't want to play it, since there's 5 other options at a time. And like another said, change of modifier should be 4 hours instead of 8. Give times when there's no Friendly Fire modifier.

Everyone is happy, no?

[EmptyDevil]

1 hour ago, Dualstar said:

Your point being?

No seriously, how is this supposed to support your argument.

The only conclusion i can draw right now is that youre a griefer and you want to prey on newbies who have no chance of taking you out before you do them.

1. It doesnt seem you have realised, but Nightmare Mods, can only be obtained by doing Nightmare Missions. Whether its for personal use or to sell them, they have to come from somewhere.
2. Our lord and saviour the RNG wont simply hand over the mod youre looking for, if one happens to be desperate for a particular mod they will seek out every chance they can take at getting it.
3. People still play Radiation Hazard Sorties, which usually play out more or less the same way.

One more thing;

Theres a Dojo room you can biuld which allows for unrestricted duelling.

I rather not bicker back and forth with someone too ignorant to see things from another perspective. Going to assume you were killed by someone repeatedly, damaging your ego, so you now assume everyone is a griefer. Newsflash, people actually do enjoy playing a mode with more odds stacked against them. I'm sure you understand my argument and points, but you rather farm upvotes by filling the thread with salt.

Welcome to my ignore list.

44 minutes ago, secret9005 said:

If Friendly Fire was just at 1 node at a time, why are you guys so against it? I personally wanted to play it with friends, but never got to.

There's 6 Hard Missions, 6 Medium Missions and 4 Easy Mission planets that offer Nightmare nodes. If your concern is players ruining the newbie experience, then offer Friendly Fire only at Hard/Medium Missions and only one of it at a time. I'm pretty sure newbies don't have access to Sedna, Pluto, Neptune, Lua, Eris or Uranus yet, much less have all the nodes there completed. Last I checked, people need to finish all the nodes on a planet to unlock Nightmare mode on that planet.

This way it won't ever affect those that don't want to play it, since there's 5 other options at a time. And like another said, change of modifier should be 4 hours instead of 8. Give times when there's no Friendly Fire modifier.

Everyone is happy, no?

Some people aren't happy until they get their way entirely. They don't care if it doesn't hurt or bother them, it just has to be gone if it's against their ideas. For example I've seen people that said PVP shouldn't have any rewards, incentives, and nothing good at all just because they don't play or like PVP.

[EmptyDevil]

1 hour ago, Calwon5 said:

If I wanted to play PVP, I would've done so already. Except this is PVE, please don't introduce any sort of friendly fire. It's annoying and someone WILL exploit it.

The only new layer of challenge is avoiding death from your own teammates. Which is stupid if you ask me. 

Edit: Having some nodes that aren't friendly fire is not a answer that will be sufficient. It's like you're saying:  Oh, you don't like that? Don't play it. Yeah. NO.

So? There are plenty of nodes that aren't 'Friendly Fire' with the same rewards. You don't have to worry about losing out on anything. Not to mention DE will most likely make the nightmare nodes more frequent based on The Second Stream feedback, so there will be even more options to choose from instead of 'Friendly Fire'. People on the forums just love saying 'Don't like [insert]? Don't play/use/do it', but that reply isn't a problem in this case.

[Volinus7]

Duh it's a social experiment.

Many ppl like PK with pve gears, once they taste blood...they won't stop.

Many ppl are heroes of friendship, they don't want to contaminate rainbow fantasy realm with trolls.

Many ppl are just undergeared and don't want to be killed repeatedly but when they have a chance to kill someone noober they won't hesitate to pull the trigger.

[VampirePirate]

11 hours ago, EmptyDevil said:

This will basically be a list of why i think it should have stayed or why it should come back in the future.

 

- It was clearly advertised on the node what the nightmare modifier was.

- It could have been limited to having an existence of 1 ~ 2 nodes at any given time.

- Damage sources that come from other players could have been reduced by 99%.

- AoE abilities from players could have ignored targeting other players.

- Preventing companions and allies from attacking players would have been good too.

- Many players actually enjoyed this with friends.

- It added a new layer of challenge for some and another thrill for those that enjoy dangerous missions.

- It highlighted some glaring issues with certain weapon designs and playstyles. Mainly the Simulor series and Tonkor.
 

Please consider polishing the modifier to make it less grief-able mode, then bring it back.

Yes.

I played a few of these and learned some things i always knew would be a problem, none of them being the fact that friendly fire exist (existed).

Some Tenno care not to read the condition of the missions they embark.

The majority of Tenno have the inability to adapt to new situations and conditions that actually require thought and skill.

Some Tenno are'nt really Tenno and delight in seeing the suffering of teammates.  (Got my head blown off several times intentionally because someone wanted my kills).

Some Tenno like watching Rambo Movies and love Steven Stallone.  (Screw the team.  I can do this on my own!  Ka-Bam!  Bleeding out.  Guys?  Help me here please.  Oh darn.  I left them back at the other side of the map.  Guess I'll abort mission.)

Majority of Tenno are addicted to power. (My syndicate weapon explodes and kills everything!  Yeah baby!  Oops.  It kills my teammates too?  Oh, well... I'll keep using it.)

And the most popular one of all.  A Trinity that never heals the team when needed.  (Everyone is dead and she is bleeding out too.  Help me guys!  ....guys?)

Oh and let's not forget this one.  Juggernaut.  "Slow the fight, Tenno," says Lotus.   (Everyone keeps fighting.  Juggy arrives.    Aaaahhhrrrraaaghhh!   We can't beat him!  We're dying!  Help!  Help!  Aaaaahhhhaaarrragggh!  MISSION FAILED!)  But she said "slow" the fight, not "stop fighting"  Sigh.

Now... remove friendly fire and tell me if any of these would change?

(Only change I see is being able to kill one another.  The rest is... well... Tenno life.)

Edited November 4, 2016 by VampirePirate

[NativeKiller]

"I LOVE MISSIONS WHERE I CAN KILL OR GET KILLED BY OTHER PLAYERS! GRIEFING AND TROLLING IS CHALLENGING AND FUN!"

 

Personally, I don't want/need anymore of that, since we already have Radiation sorties.

Edited November 4, 2016 by NativeKiller

[Dualstar]

5 hours ago, EmptyDevil said:

I rather not bicker back and forth with someone too ignorant to see things from another perspective.

Welcome to my ignore list.

Coward.

[Brynslustafir]

People can't be trusted. With this in mind, I believe that the friendly fire multiplier was always doomed to fail, and I will not lament its absence. 

[LuckyCharm]

I like friendly fire. It lets me kill the idiots who come in and spam aoe's. And then keep killing them till they leave. 10/10 would play again. 

[Brynslustafir]

18 minutes ago, LuckyCharm said:

I like friendly fire. It lets me kill the idiots who come in and spam aoe's. And then keep killing them till they leave. 10/10 would play again. 

Countering griefing with griefing will inspire greater griefing. It's like an international arms race except instead of competing to see who can make the biggest nuke it's a contest to see who can be the most infamous team-killer. People working in random groups are not reasonable enough to be given such a level of responsibility as making sure your teammates aren't in your line of fire. In a run with clannies, maybe. But in a run with randos? Not a chance. It's just not even remotely likely that randos with friendly fire will get along, and nobody trustworthy comes to warframe because they got tired of LoL and want a new source of salt. 

I'm kinda rambling, but my point is that I believe the overall best solution to the griefer problem is to remove the method they are using to grief. As long as it isn't an integral element of the game as a whole (Which it's not) I see no reason to keep it around when all it does is bring salt. 

Edited November 4, 2016 by Plasmaface

[Manyc]

In general, most arguments I see here against Friendly Fire are PvP excuses.

You see, just because you can hurt your friends, doesn't mean you have to.

And those who complain not enjoying being forced to solo because not many active friends, well, not everything falls from the trees to please us. Build / get a clan, if you got one join an alliance, if even then you already do but still doesn't have many active, get other clans to join in, if that doesn't work as well, make another kind of friends through your random encounters. It's not the game or the community's fault that you don't have active friends, if you don't want to solo, then get some. If you have trouble speaking up to people, just be blunt and honest of what you want.

When someone said that some people enjoyed playing FF with friends, they meant as the extra layer of difficulty of aiming carefully and use powers wisely to not hurt them as well. And not because they've been PvP'ing all the time in PvE.

Thanks to FF I noticed something between on me and my friends. We're losing our touch, specially as "veterans". we're acting no different than newbies while totally relying on Meta gears.

With FF it's a more tactical, you have to actually make use of the minimap, know where your friends are, level your actual skill to keep up with higher missions (specially those void defences with enemies level 60+), we actually have to worry moving out of the of Grenades (admit it, everyone is used to ignore them, most people don't even know what that beeping sound is). Use more skill based weapons like certain shotguns, rifles, snipers and be wary. Make use of roll and flipping away from danger, make actuall use of cover.

[iPathos]

39 minutes ago, Manyc said:

With FF it's a more tactical, you have to actually make use of the minimap, know where your friends are, level your actual skill to keep up with higher missions (specially those void defences with enemies level 60+), we actually have to worry moving out of the of Grenades (admit it, everyone is used to ignore them, most people don't even know what that beeping sound is). Use more skill based weapons like certain shotguns, rifles, snipers and be wary. Make use of roll and flipping away from danger, make actuall use of cover.

The only problem with this is that the vast majority of people either won't or don't. Many of them were aware of the fact that they could deal damage to allies, but didn't care enough to even slightly alter their play style, they'd rather kill everything around (allies included) then maybe revive the teammates they took down if they have the breathing room to do so. It was far too hit-and-miss with what kind of players you would get in the mix, though the ability to report those who intentionally griefed was there as well.

 

I like the premise of an extra challenge, but at the same time it adds a very easily exploitable layer to missions for those who get their jollies from causing others misery.

[Gilmaesh]

They could add it back in the clan mission builder maybe. That would be the best place for it, that way it stays between friends/clanmates.

[ssh83]

Friendly Fire is just another private-only game mode.   At most it is only for special situations like clan mission builder or special alerts.

I always read mission desciption so I never entered public game with Friendly Fire, but... I'm sure 99% of players didn't read and went into it with AoE and killed everyone (or get killed by everyone).  Obviously a terrible idea in a co-op game.

[AlphaPHENIX]

17 hours ago, (PS4)Shaun-T-Wilson said:

Only PK and trolls like this modifier.

I am neither and still liked that mode, infact I even went as far as to specifically pick Zephyr just because of Turbulance, sadly Synoid Stupidor does get through that and even worse...mag procs...because having 0 energy and no shields is fun :D <---sarcasm incase you can't detect it.

Either way it is a good mode, but Stupid Aoe Meta (SAM) and griefers ruin it.

Edited November 4, 2016 by AlphaPHENIX

[Nazrethim]

3 hours ago, ssh83 said:

Obviously a terrible idea in a co-op game.

I fail to see how a mechanic that demands player communication, teamwork and overall "care to not kill your team" is terrible for a Co-op game.

The FF mode was good, it showed who was a mindless AoE spammer and who was actually a badass space ninja.