Commanders need to be reworked

[Liminal]

Commanders are objectively poorly designed.

Designers should:

1. Present an enemy with a distinct function (if it's fodder) and a challenging mechanic (in the case of priority targets).
2. Give the players enough information so that they can decide how to react.
3. Provide a set of ingame actions that will allow them to execute their decisions, and provide appropriate consequences to those actions.
4.  

How do Commanders fare?

1. They (apparently) have a distinct function: disorient/disorganize/displace the player. That's good.
2. The player is given barely any information: you get teleported without any telegraphing whatsoever, by a unit that doesn't really stand out from its peers.
3. Apart from breaking LoS, there's no way to avoid the teleport: it's instant, unavoidable and punishing. Your only choice to avoid the Commander's power is to try to and disable/kill it through walls.
    

[AdunSaveMe]

2 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

 

Except Commanders aren't that common so it's not a big step towards improving the game. It's quite small.

Fixing the way enemy damage output scales would be a huge step to improve the game. What's the point in balancing an enemy on a busted system?

Doing things in the wrong order is why we have problems every time they add or rework an enemy. Their mechanic needs to be changed but the reason it's so completely unfair is by lvl 80 they have an unavoidable instant cast around walls that will kill most frames. They're not a problem at lvl 30 because you can take the damage. It's ultimately a scaling issue attached to a dumb ability.

Fixing a garbage unit isn't going to make fixing scaling take longer. Ignoring one problem just because another one is bigger makes no sense.

Scaling will be fixed, one day. We should not wait until then to change anything else.

[RodeInOnaUnicorn]

Did you know, the Grineer text on their helmets spell "UBER"?

Honestly, I don't see a problem with them. Nor have I taken enough damage to defeat me, after a "switch".

I shoot one, he teleports me where I'm heading, I'm dazed a few, and then I'm on my way. 

Maybe a good "fix" should prevent players from exploiting their ability? They're clearly just another movement power to me 


 

Edited November 8, 2016 by GibbsslapTheGalaxy

[Xzorn]

10 minutes ago, AdunSaveMe said:

Fixing a garbage unit isn't going to make fixing scaling take longer. Ignoring one problem just because another one is bigger makes no sense.

Scaling will be fixed, one day. We should not wait until then to change anything else.

 

When you have limited resources doing one thing before another makes that other take longer.

You are under the impression that changing an algorithm in a function would take more time than completely designing a new function.

You don't go to fix a window in a building that's about to topple over. That's stupid prioritizing.

When they fix Commanders, if they're using the same scaling system then they're still inherently broken and in terms of the length of the problem. Scaling has been an issue since before Commander's had the stun portion of their teleport added so I'm not holding my breath on either.

This post above mine is a perfect example of why it's a scaling issue first. Some people don't even see the problem because they don't fight them at a level range where it 100% kills you.

[(PSN)Stealth_Cobra]

Bah, it's a rare occurence, almost never got me killed.

Not saying it's perfect, but there's much higher priorities...

[VentiGlondi]

1 hour ago, The_Doc said:

Apart from breaking LoS, there's no way to avoid the teleport: it's instant, unavoidable and punishing. Your only choice to avoid the Commander's power is to try to and disable/kill it through walls.

Wrong.

Breaking LoS does nothing. Commanders will teleport you whenever they feel like it, as long as they're alerted, even when there's several walls between you.

[Luther848]

5 hours ago, GibbsslapTheGalaxy said:

Did you know, the Grineer text on their helmets spell "UBER"?

Honestly, I don't see a problem with them. Nor have I taken enough damage to defeat me, after a "switch".

I shoot one, he teleports me where I'm heading, I'm dazed a few, and then I'm on my way. 

Maybe a good "fix" should prevent players from exploiting their ability? They're clearly just another movement power to me 


 

 

4 hours ago, (PS4)Stealth_Cobra said:

Bah, it's a rare occurence, almost never got me killed.

Not saying it's perfect, but there's much higher priorities...

I don't think you guys understand the problem. It's not that people are dying to them it's that it's an instant and uncounterable "you don't get to play". It's not like it's a punishment for playing bad either. If you had to stay still or there was some kind of warning before the teleport maybe it would fair but simply being in a commander's line of sight is enough to activate it. If anyone was to encounter this at any level higher than 40 it would be almost certain death for non-tank frames. 

[Liminal]

On 8/11/2016 at 3:04 PM, VentiGlondi said:

Wrong.

Breaking LoS does nothing. Commanders will teleport you whenever they feel like it, as long as they're alerted, even when there's several walls between you.

I've always seen them needing LoS, even if it was just 1 pixel of your frame, but I could be wrong. Anyway, what you're saying makes the point I made even more relevant!

[RealPandemonium]

Their Switch Teleport should be something like a beam that they have to focus on you for a few seconds before it goes off (picture something like Vor's energy beams.)  This would give it a healthy audio and visual cue and allow players to dodge it (it would track poorly) if they're paying attention.  That's all that's needed, IMO.  

Edited November 9, 2016 by RealPandemonium

[jfhsanseiIII]

I like the commanders. They do their job fine.  Every time there's an ability that causes players trouble that isn't overcome with smashing ability buttons then I see these threads. The grineervare easily the most CC-able faction there is next to the infested.  I like them getting advantages we never had.  Also, Vor can teleport as well.  

[Xenoraptor]

4 minutes ago, jfhsanseiIII said:

I like the commanders. They do their job fine.  Every time there's an ability that causes players trouble that isn't overcome with smashing ability buttons then I see these threads. The grineervare easily the most CC-able faction there is next to the infested.  I like them getting advantages we never had.  Also, Vor can teleport as well.  

But Vor's ability to teleport is explicitly stated to be due to his possession of Orokin technology. Regor, Manics and Flameblades can teleport as well, but in all of these cases they're used for mobility and don't directly impact the player, adding an interesting change of pace to the Grineer faction's usual 'bunker down and apply dakka' approach.

The Commander, by comparison, has (as has been explained dozens of times in this thread already) an unavoidable, untelegraphed stun ability that relocates the player, generally into the midst of other Grineer. In addition, they have little in the way of visual distinctiveness, they only wield a basic Grakata, they're just another bullet sponge enemy with no other interesting mechanics, and they're abnormally uncommon for how mundane they are.

Basically, there's nothing about them that validates their existence, so they should either be removed or reworked to be a worthwhile addition to the Grineer's roster.

[AdunSaveMe]

14 minutes ago, jfhsanseiIII said:

Every time there's an ability that causes players trouble that isn't overcome with smashing ability buttons then I see these threads.

Every time I see someone bring up arguments as to why something could be changed, I see this silly fallacy response.

Seriously, you aren't making any arguments. You're just acting like everyone is complaining cus they can't smash buttons and win the game, which is completely false. That's not why. There are clearly listed reasons as to why, you're just choosing to ignore them.

You people do this all the time. I don't understand it. You're not making any points whatsoever, you're just saying everyone is wrong because they're bad and that nothing is flawed at all, completely ignoring any and all actual arguments. What does this bring to the discussion?

Edited November 10, 2016 by AdunSaveMe

[Vance.Stubbs]

At least they don't teleport you under the stairs like they used to do...

[AdunSaveMe]

9 minutes ago, Xenoraptor said:

But Vor's ability to teleport is explicitly stated to be due to his possession of Orokin technology. Regor, Manics and Flameblades can teleport as well, but in all of these cases they're used for mobility and don't directly impact the player, adding an interesting change of pace to the Grineer faction's usual 'bunker down and apply dakka' approach.

The Commander, by comparison, has (as has been explained dozens of times in this thread already) an unavoidable, untelegraphed stun ability that relocates the player, generally into the midst of other Grineer. In addition, they have little in the way of visual distinctiveness, they only wield a basic Grakata, they're just another bullet sponge enemy with no other interesting mechanics, and they're abnormally uncommon for how mundane they are.

Basically, there's nothing about them that validates their existence, so they should either be removed or reworked to be a worthwhile addition to the Grineer's roster.

If you had a dice roll that randomly killed players, that would basically be as interesting and challenging as the Commander is. Unavoidable, uncounterable, lazy, bland design, and all you can do is hit revive and hope it doesn't happen again. In high level missions the Commander's teleport might as well just kill you right away and save you the time. I'm sure that would also be fun and challenging.

There is absolutely no aspect of this unit that can be defended in any sensible way. Not that this matters, of course, since the people who think it's fine apparently don't feel inclined to try to defend it with arguments instead of fallacies and baseless personal assumptions. Nobody wins.

Edited November 10, 2016 by AdunSaveMe

[rockscl]

From my experience trying to talk about commanders you can always expect the following answers:

1 omg y u so bad get gud: you cant get good against onesided arbitrary actions.

2 they arent a problem because they never spawn: we should miss them, that would mean that they are fun.

The "those ou S#&$ moments" design philosophy is garbage, it is in the same tier with coptering speed, it is "balanced" in a bland and harmfulway that only outlines boredom as a pilar of the game. 

The commander disrespects an human player experience from his safetyness to risk as a consequence of his own actions and decisions, unless one embraces that right now the only right decision about the commanders is to carry one of the several risk trivialization tools the game offers in order to forget about the commanders, and every other unit in the process.

[marelooke]

On 8/11/2016 at 5:07 AM, TARINunit9 said:

When Commanders were first released, they were detrimental to their own men, because SwitchTele had no stunning effect on players. It should have been obvious here that no, this enemy concept simply would not work. But no... So DE sloppily patched them with this super annoying stun effect that IGNORES LINE OF SIGHT

Iirc they used to occur on Mercury already, I definitely learned to fear them when I was a rookie as being teleported in the middle of a bunch of trigger happy Grineer could actually hurt back then. If enemies were enough of a threat then they wouldn't be needing the stun to be fearsome (not that they are fearsome with the stun, merely super annoying. Taking player control away is always a bad idea).

At this point it might just be best to get rid of them until DE figures out a way to make them work, there's already a billion variations on units, one less won't break the bank.

[TARINunit9]

19 hours ago, The_Doc said:

I've always seen them needing LoS, even if it was just 1 pixel of your frame, but I could be wrong. Anyway, what you're saying makes the point I made even more relevant!

As far as I can tell, Commanders need to establish LoS before they're allowed to SwitchTele, but they don't need LoS at the moment of SwitchTele specifically

[AdunSaveMe]

43 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

As far as I can tell, Commanders need to establish LoS before they're allowed to SwitchTele, but they don't need LoS at the moment of SwitchTele specifically

From my experience, they just have to be alerted, but this also seems plausible.

Regardless, at some point, it doesn't require line of sight. Even if it did, it would still be terrible.

[Flustershy]

I do have to say....

I am genuinely amazed by the fact that you can find enough commanders for them to bother you.

I mean what i have 3000 + hours of warframe and i meet 1-2 commanders per 100 grineer missions.

Commanders seem to have like very specific spawning conditions, unlike lets say heavy gunners or scorches.

And yes i am aware how it is annoying how you can get switch teleported into a group of enemies and die, BUT you get 4 revives per mission now a days, so what you die once to a commander teleport....you respawn kill it, and next commander comes in 10 Hours or so.

So call me blind or stupid (if you so wish) but i do not see an issue or need for this topic to exist in the first place.

(i mean unless you seriously have a constant problem with maybe one of the rarest enemy spawns in game.)

[rockscl]

1 hour ago, Flustershy said:

I am genuinely amazed by the fact that you can find enough commanders for them to bother you.

 i meet 1-2 commanders per 100 grineer missions.

and next commander comes in 10 Hours or so.

(i mean unless you seriously have a constant problem with maybe one of the rarest enemy spawns in game.)

 

7 hours ago, rockscl said:

From my experience trying to talk about commanders you can always expect the following answers:

1 omg y u so bad get gud: you cant get good against onesided arbitrary actions.

2 they arent a problem because they never spawn: we should miss them, that would mean that they are fun.

 

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

My Carrier Prime and his multifomaed shotgun laugh at your switch teleport. My frame may be stunned, but carrier isn't. 

[Bipp]

21 hours ago, RealPandemonium said:

Their Switch Teleport should be something like a beam that they have to focus on you for a few seconds before it goes off (picture something like Vor's energy beams.)  This would give it a healthy audio and visual cue and allow players to dodge it (it would track poorly) if they're paying attention.  That's all that's needed, IMO.  

That'd work. Something basically like the Ballista's laser sight.

Except have you seen how damn well they can track with it? The bullet accuracy at distance is one thing but the tracking on that laser sight in nuts. 

Bullet jump? Nope.

Rolling? Negative.

Escape Velocity? Haha no.

DE give us all these tools to evade damage and such but they keep removing any reason to use them for what they're meant to actually do which is avoid stuff. 

Unless the enemy uses a beam weapon lemao

[Bipp]

1 minute ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

My Carrier Prime and his multifomaed shotgun laugh at your switch teleport. My frame may be stunned, but carrier isn't. 

You seem to have missed the point.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

2 minutes ago, Keybopsef said:

You seem to have missed the point.

I may have missed it, but Carrier P won't. 

Edited November 10, 2016 by (PS4)DesecratedFlame

[RealPandemonium]

4 minutes ago, Keybopsef said:

That'd work. Something basically like the Ballista's laser sight.

Except have you seen how damn well they can track with it? The bullet accuracy at distance is one thing but the tracking on that laser sight in nuts. 

Bullet jump? Nope.

Rolling? Negative.

Escape Velocity? Haha no.

DE give us all these tools to evade damage and such but they keep removing any reason to use them for what they're meant to actually do which is avoid stuff. 

Unless the enemy uses a beam weapon lemao

I never get hit by Ballistas, though?  Their beam stops tracking for a short time before they fire, so unless I goof I never get hit by it (in the worst case where I can't dodge to the side, I roll toward the shot and it either goes over me or hits me for 75% reduced damage.)  This is similar to how people tell me that Ancients and Scorpions 360 noscope them all the time, while I have absolutely no problem dodging them effortlessly so long as I am aware of their presence (and often even by pure reaction without knowing they were there beforhand.)

Edited November 10, 2016 by RealPandemonium