Valkyr Prime design lore discussion

[SurrealEdge]

What lore?

[Weidro]

1 minute ago, SurrealEdge said:

What lore?

[Hesyol]

Yeah it could be fun if we got another Valk with different looks (though no one said it should look like Gersemi skin and thank god for that I hate how it looks) and different skills. But I'm sure people would rage about how it breaks whole Prime system, how it is unfair to normal Valk, etc. So while it was kinda lazy I don't think there was any other way

[Stoner]

7 hours ago, Domesticon said:

Welp, no trailer, seems this confirms that DE is just throwing the lore out the window in favor of money, could have gone a bit further and gotten both, but nope, going to take the cop out.

Yep. It's that bad.

They did release a trailer but it doesn't tell us anything about her. Some say they are working on another, which would be... interesting. No way she was made before Alad V, that would conflict way too much with the lore. 

They either have to change her design a little bit, which would be the best option imo, change her story or say she was made after Alad V. 

Edited November 23, 2016 by Stoner74

[Arkvold]

I can reconcile why Valkyr Prime looks more like Valkyr than the Gersemi skin.

Valkyr Prime was the original Valkyr Warframe.  Gersemi was a later project by modern Tenno to reproduce the design, but like all designs made by modern Tenno, it's made with inferior technology and cannot accurately mimic the Orokin original.

Modern Tenno, when they tried to reproduce the design verbatim, couldn't match the sheer durability of the original.  As a result, they attempted to fix this by adding plating, giving Gersemi Valkyr (the original Tenno-made model) her smoother yet slightly bulkier appearance.

Then Alad V captured Gersemi Valkyr and stripped off the plating.  Underneath, Valkyr more closely resembled the Prime form, without any of its extraneous appendages.

Modern Valkyr's original body and Gersemi armor were used to create the first Zanuka prototype, which was destroyed on Jupiter.  That's the end of the original Modern Valkyr.

What we use is a reproduction of the original Modern Valkyr design, made from blueprints taken from Alad V, based on his experiment data.  Apparently, Alad must've regarded the Gersemi plating as superfluous, as he didn't keep that in the design.  Makes sense, because they're a completely-Tenno-made addition to what was otherwise a knockoff of the Orokin design.  Corpus, and Alad in particular, hate "the betrayers" (Tenno) and so may have taken his spite out on the blueprints, preserving only the data that fits with what he knew of the Prime design.

So, we get Valkyr as Alad V had her, since that's where our data comes from.  We then have to re-add the Gersemi armor and strip off Alad V's various bonds and shackles - or keep them as a reminder.  Then we unearth the blueprints of the original Prime version, and discover where we went wrong with the modern recreation, and why the Gersemi armor was unnecessary, if only we had the original Orokin tech.

[Evanescent]

10 hours ago, DoppelShifter said:

1 - Mangled Valkyr was designed first

What? How? What's your basis for saying this?

10 hours ago, DoppelShifter said:

2 - DE launched Gersemi saying it was the true form of Valkyr before the experiments

Yeah, so? Have you seen nekros? He looks like his mask fell off. Tenno recreations are always missing parts of the prime look and designs.

10 hours ago, DoppelShifter said:

3 - Valkyr Prime is based on Mangled Valkyr.

 

Again, what's you basis for saying this?

10 hours ago, DoppelShifter said:

That doesn't make sense.

As far as I can see and until you go more into detail, you're the one that's not making sense here.

[YUNoJump]

So obviously a lot of people are angry about the fact that Valkyr Prime is based off of standard Valkyr and not Gersemi, and how it raises serious lore questions. We know that DE is working on a lore reason, and the bottom line is that its a better decision design-wise to base a special version of an item on its original, not a side design, but concrete dates for answers to questions have never stopped people from going wild with theories before, so here I go. Some of what I have to say has been said by other people in other threads, but I think it's a very good explanation so I'm making a thread that holds all of the details.

The lore so far, in chronological order:

1. Valkyr Prime is made by the Orokin, she resembles the Valkyr of our time.

2. Gersemi Valkyr is made as a non-primed version of Valkyr Prime by somebody, possibly the Orokin as a more basic version, possibly Old War Tenno, its even possible that it was made after the fall of the Orokin, in the current time, in the same way that we make other standard Warframes.

3. Alad V captures Gersemi Valkyr and experiments on her, causing her much pain and drastically disfiguring her. 

The first part of my theory is based on Alad V's experiments on Gersemi. He damages and tortures her extensively, but leaves her functioning. In The Second Dream, Alad V states that he's seen inside many Warframes, implying a murder and autopsy. The Grineer have also seen inside Warframes, as (I think) Vor states at some point. Presumably whenever we run out of revives, the faction du jour takes the dead Warframe and does whatever they want to it. 

Valkyr is the only recorded Warframe to be captured and kept alive. Alad V experimented on her, but he actually adds Corpus technology to Valkyr, most notably the forearm pieces that also appear on Valkyr Prime. He wasn't trying to figure out how she works, he was trying to make her into something else, most likely something under his control, as he seems to like making servants out of Warframes (see Zanuka).

Here's the theory: Alad V experimented on Gersemi Valkyr in order to make her into Valkyr Prime, and keep her under his control. He can't make a prime from scratch, the Orokin were far too advanced to have their work replicated, but Alad hypothesised that he could make a Prime by modifying an existing Warframe instead. Hence, Standard Valkyr is born, a tortured husk compared to Gersemi, but more of a Prime than its previous form.

The other big part of Valkyr is her powers. Gersemi and Prime both have the same powers as the tortured Valkyr, but it is generally believed that Valkyr either gained powers from the torture, or her previous powers were changed by the torture. This is one of the biggest plot holes I see in Valkyr's lore at the moment. The torture left her "scarred, angry and frighteningly adept at killing". The Second Dream makes this impossible.

The lore from TSD shows us that without an Operator, Warframes are barely alive, only capable of very basic movements (I personally believe that our Warframe was able to break the War because the Operator unknowingly used some of the power that they fully gained in TWW but that's for another thread). If Valkyr was experimented on as a Warframe, she wouldn't be conscious or emotive for the ordeal, assuming her Operator had the sense to disconnect from a torture session (even if they did stay connected, the Operator would feel the pain channelled through Valkyr, Valkyr still wouldn't be personally experiencing the pain).

No amount of pain can make a Warframe angry, as they don't have enough cognitive ability to feel emotion. Operators implant their minds into Warframes, and the Warframe has no influence on how the Operator uses it. This means that Valkyr musn't have received her current powers from the experiments, she would have had them as a Prime and as Gersemi. There's no plot holes in Valkyr Prime's lore, there's a plot hole in the story of Valkyr's torture. 

Yes, she screams, and Rhino roars, you could call that an emotion. However, i posit that they are simply part of the power, not done with emotion, but done as part of the required procedure to use their abilities. Rhino is based on a beast of some sort which would feel emotions, and maybe Valkyr's screams come from some creature that she is based on, but as Warframes, they are purely tools, not creatures.

These are just theories that I've thought about, I'm sure DE has some different lore thing planned, I'd feel very proud if I managed to figure out their lore ideas myself but that's unlikely. I'm sure there are a lot of issues that people can see with the theory, and I'd love to discuss this in a civil manner. Please don't get mad at me just because you wanted Gersemi Prime and got Tortured Valkyr Prime, think about the lore first. As I said above, Valkyr Prime's design probably comes from design sense first, and lore sense second, so in the end this probably isn't even about lore.

[xXx_mtv_xXx]

Platinum is the only true lore

[arch111]

Know what? We won't be happier prolonging this. Only DE can do some thing, if they choose to.

I think that we must accept it like this.

The Orokin made the Prime in a specific way. But only they could make the blueprints. Tenno tried to but had to make the basic ones instead. 

Alad found a cache of Gersemi. And he allso found a Prime.

The Prime was beyond him, but the Gersemi was not. The Gersemi IS the original, reworked by the Tenno to look more like a winged warriorangel.

Alad used his skill of robotics to fuse their tech to the Gersemi, recreating the Prime in a horrid way.

Gersemi : Tenno

Valkyr Prime: Orokin

Experiment: Tenno/Corpus hybrid.

Hah! Look at that. 

Forged in the labs of the Zanuka Project. 

...

Not the prettiest solution, but it works.

 

[xXx_mtv_xXx]

1. get Valkyr Prime

2. equip Gersemi skin

3. get lorescoped

[RunningTree3]

:O Tenno'd. I was just about to post my own hypothesis. Nice work.

I also thought about Gersemi being the non-primed version, but then changed my theory.

Here is my version:

=====

The Orokin created Valkyr Prime.

If we may understand standard warframes as the less-decorated, mass-produced versions of the primes, then:

There was a non-primed Valkyr version that was used, but they are all lost to the Old War, except one...

This One (let's call her, Valkyr-A) was placed into cryosleep along with the other warframes after the Betrayal at Terminus. Then along comes Alad V, who discovers Valkyr-A (Vor's Prize style). Alad's knowledge gained from stripping Valkyr-A led to the Zanuka project.

Then Lotus discovers what Alad V has done, and launches the event The Hunt for Alad V. Tenno hunt down Alad V and recover a damaged Valkyr (no longer Valkyr-A). This is the Valkyr we know. This is the Valkyr who has faint imprints of her decorative ribbons and so kept her bonds to wear. This is the Valkyr whose blueprint we build. 

After some time deploying Valkyr into battle, Tenno operatives, possibly the Tenno High council, gather to honour this warframe.

They do not know what Valkyr-A looks like, nor what Valkyr Prime looks like (yet). So they build her a new skin, because #allValkyrsAreBeautiful. They name this skin Gersemi - "the jewel". Many Tenno are pleased and choose this skin; many others prefer to remember the damaged Valkyr and what she went through, and choose not.

Then... the Tenno discover Valkyr Prime...

-

Edited November 23, 2016 by RunningTree3
added mention of cryosleep

[YUNoJump]

2 minutes ago, RunningTree3 said:

 -snip-

That's actually a pretty interesting theory, I like that it fits the timeline of Warframe's history, what with Gersemi only recently becoming available compared to standard Valkyr. I think a lot of people think of Warframe's content, outside of direct plot stuff like quests and events, as basically existing in a static period of time, with new skins and content being added to the same time period, the "present" that never actually moves into the future. I certainly never thought about skins appearing in the universe over time until now.

[(PSN)auwsomestgamer]

16 minutes ago, YUNoJump said:

Valkyr is the only recorded Warframe to be captured and kept alive

Valkyr was deconstructed and used for zanuka prototype

[Yrveth]

6 minutes ago, Evanescent said:

What? How? What's your basis for saying this?

Yeah, so? Have you seen nekros? He looks like his mask fell off. Tenno recreations are always missing parts of the prime look and designs.

Again, what's you basis for saying this?

As far as I can see and until you go more into detail, you're the one that's not making sense here.

I took the second scenario (that you quoted there) to be a summary of how things went down in, hm, real life. Valkyr was without any doubt designed first of the three, and Valkyr Prime is based on that design - that is obvious, but we have also been informed of it, if there was any doubt.

16 minutes ago, arch111 said:

Not the prettiest solution, but it works.

I think it's what works best, at the moment. I saw several suggestions along those lines already so you're definitely not alone.

[Hesyol]

Lore or not I can't understand what people like about Gersemi skin...

[YUNoJump]

10 minutes ago, (PS4)auwsomestgamer said:

Valkyr was deconstructed and used for zanuka prototype

True, but she wasn't just taken apart straight away, like we see in that early trailer for the PS4 version (I'm gonna count that as canon because there's not really a reason for it not to be, everything else there is canon, whatever). In the trailer, that machine just cuts the Warframe up immediately, parts for Zanuka are kept, the rest are sold. Valkyr, however, has Corpus parts ADDED to her. You wouldn't add parts to something if your sole intention was to cut it up and attach the parts to something else. Alad must have been doing SOMETHING with her body beforehand. Maybe he gave up on Priming her, and just decided to make a robo-dog?

[Evanescent]

What I think is that the fastening and blocks we see on vanilla valkyr are probably augments that Alad V put in to study the warframe. I mean, her hands are where her claws come from.

[Serinexxa]

4 minutes ago, Hesyol said:

Lore or not I can't understand what people like about Gersemi skin...

With Bastet helmet and solid dark colors, it fulfills a lot of "crazy cat lady reasoning" I may have. Also my several kavat children totally agree with me.

Otherwise... "I dunno!"

[(PSN)ATreidezz]

I believe there are frames with self consciousness, valkyr is one of them, she has emotion. Another example would be mirage & titania, look at the lore:

-mirage laughing to lotus as she's dying

-titania defend her creator in silver grove (who controlled her?)

Remember, the frames that we have are not those frames in the lore, what we have are just the duplicates of them. I believe those frames in the lore are considered as unique individuals.

Also: Solar rail (junctions) Specters can talk. Which makes me think that maybe the valkyr in the lore was just a specter, no real connection with the tenno, hence easier for alad to capture.

Edited November 23, 2016 by (PS4)ATreidezz

[CapAllan]

45 minutes ago, RunningTree3 said:

-snip-

One issue. The Corpus didn't really exist until after the fall of the Orokin. Which means, that there was no Alad V and no Grineer either. They used to be part of the Orokin Faction and Alad only came to power long after the fall.

In all honesty, you can just put the Gersemeni Skin on Valkyr Prime and go around like the unharmed version. There were both the Vanilla and the Primed Versions before the capture and its just kinda absurd to think that only Gersemeni is the pure embodiment of what Valkyr actually used to look like (imo).  I think Valkyr Prime looks great and all of this hate is just unnecessary. DE put in a lot of work to make her and the rest of the PA that its only fair if we just go along with it. They aren't forcing you to buy it either. So, just suck it up and farm her or do whatever you want.

[Chewarette]

2 hours ago, erny0507 said:

Yes but gersemi was supposed to resemble valkyr p. Look at any prime and they resemble their tenno made version. With valkyr P thats not the case. 

She resembles her Corpus version much more then her gersemi.

Yeah Trinity is completely the same as her Prime version.

Maybe you're taking the thing the wrong way. Valkyr Prime looks like her Corpus version ? What if Corpus version looks like Valkyr P ?

What if daddy Alad decided that Gersemi deserved to be back to her glorious Orokin version and tried to transform her (Gersemi) into Valkyr P, based on some blueprints or memory he may have of these times ?

Edited November 23, 2016 by Chewarette

[BrazilianJoe]

10 minutes ago, CapAllan said:

One issue. The Corpus didn't really exist until after the fall of the Orokin. Which means, that there was no Alad V and no Grineer either. They used to be part of the Orokin Faction and Alad only came to power long after the fall.

Faulty logic, can't explain without

Spoiler

Corpus and the Grineer didn't exist as factions, but Alad V and the Twin Sisters are Orokin, so they already existed. 

After the war and their downfall they lost a lot of the technological means to built much of the wonderful things they did prior. 

Gersemi Skin is a retcon and shows Alad V peeled off Valkyr's orginal skin to use on Zanuka, a robotic surrogate which also has some bits to cast warframe-like powers. 

I don't think there should be much problem in the Lotus gathering resources to Prime more recent frames, and thus picking up post-Alad V Valkyr and make her Prime. It's a simple explanation and the design lends itself really well to it.

But I think it would be much nicer if we had an event with lore making it explicit and giving us something to do, not just a "here's a prime, give us monies!" 

 

Edited November 23, 2016 by -TP-BrazilianJoe

[Rhekemi]

35 minutes ago, Hesyol said:

Lore or not I can't understand what people like about Gersemi skin...

My friend, fashion frame is not about a single skin. It's about using your designer's eye to combine items for a snazzy look.

28 minutes ago, Serinexxa said:

With Bastet helmet and solid dark colors, it fulfills a lot of "crazy cat lady reasoning" I may have. Also my several kavat children totally agree with me.

Otherwise... "I dunno!"

My main theme for her with that skin was to go dark + the helmet, yeah. Then I made the one above for a contest. (Modeled her on Alura In-Ze for a contest.)

If I mained Valkyr, I'd use the look more, but I don't.

As for the lore, will read it eventually but can't now. Looks pretty decent by the size of it! 

[CapAllan]

3 minutes ago, -TP-BrazilianJoe said:

Faulty logic, can't explain without

  Hide contents

Corpus and the Grineer didn't exist as factions, but Alad V and the Twin Sisters are Orokin, so they already existed. 

After the war and their downfall they lost a lot of the technological means to built much of the wonderful things they did prior. 

Gersemi Skin is a retcon and shows Alad V peeled off Valkyr's orginal skin to use on Zanuka, a robotic surrogate which also has some bits to cast warframe-like powers. 

I don't think there should be much problem in the Lotus gathering resources to Prime more recent frames, and thus picking up post-Alad V Valkyr and make her Prime. It's a simple explanation and the design lends itself really well to it.

But I think it would be much nicer if we had an event with lore making it explicit and giving us something to do, not just a "here's a prime, give us monies!" 

 

That was what I meant. I guess I put it wrong. Yeah. There were no Corpus/Grineer "factions". But I don't think Lotus can "Prime" frames. She doesn't have anyone from the Orokin Era to do so. Only the Orokin could've made the Prime Warframes.

[GX339-4]

So what about starting a poll about letting DE change Valkyr Prime's appearance?