Riven System is highly unrewarding and may lead to the downfall of warframe

[Hypernaut1]

26 minutes ago, polarity said:

The idea behind a Skinner box is that when you get a reward, the dopamine rush from a success encourages you to keep trying, as the repeated experience also generates a dopamine high, even if it doesn't always have a positive end result.

However, when that initial dopamine high is offset by a huge run of disappointments, the Skinner box fails to work for all but the most dopamine addicted, as the repeated experience instead generates feelings of hopelessness.

Even rats will starve to death rather than keep pushing a button a million times for a chance at a food pellet.

The balance between RNG and work in/reward out needs to fall below a certain threshold for players to accept it.

What? All this thread amounts to is whining about a specific part of the game. It's really just players ranting about not getting a Riven RNG roll in their favor right away. 

WF has much more to it than Riven. If someone is beginning to feel hopeless then they're just hyper focused on getting the best item right away and railing against the system when they don't get their way.

I agree that they need to be toned down and fine tuned, but the RNG in itself is not bad. I don't see how Riven is extremely unrewarding. It hasn't even been around long enough to make that claim. If everyone was getting the mod they want in the first week it would it be a failed power-creep system soon to be forgotten about.

Many games have RNG stat boost. Those player bases just accept the fact that there will be a few lucky players that have certain items with awesome stats. Eventually most players will have at least one item they're proud of. As long as it doesn't get too out of hand, Riven will provide an addictive carrot for players to chase without depending on DE releasing new mods every few months. 

It's not going to kill the game and will provide and even more addicting Skinner box

[KIREEK]

The only thing that upsets me, is players who think these mods are bad just because they got stats they don't like and the ones who think these mods are mandatory now.

Players that afk or players that open the front door in a rescue to let the enemies in is a far greater problem gameplay wise than having players who play without "mandatory riven mods", it's not the mods that will make you succeed more often or become more efficient.

RNG needs to be there so you don't get what you want so soon. I know you want instant gratification OP, but think it on the long term.

Edited November 21, 2016 by KIREEK

[Xekrin]

52 minutes ago, ChasePanic said:

It's an insult because I've ran 8 sorties in a row and received nothing but 2k endo.  the notion that I was just waiting for TWW so I can use it as a reason to stop playing is preposterous.

But you did wait for TWW, not to quit, but to complain ever so vocally.  Every thread about the 2k endo sprouts up now, why not 3 weeks ago? or 2 months ago?  As I said (in this thread? i lost track) I've done sorties every day since forever and in this super extended final season have gotten 2k endo nearly every day.  At least 3 months worth give or take with only the occasional 4k to break it up and just once a potato.

Clearly wasn't just me but everyone accepted it until Riven mods come along.  Now I definitely want it to change as well.  I even left a couple posts in the TWW feedback megathread with ideas about it.

My problem isn't with being vocal, its being vulgar.  No things won't change if they aren't aware of the problem, that is true, but that by no means requires sarcastic metaphors to push a point across.

People think DE responds more to anger, rage and the loudest threats of "I'm keepin' ma monies!!!!".  That is the saddest part about this community, when something isn't great, people get mean and rude and frankly its pathetic.

Whatever.  They know about the 2k thing that has been a problem for MONTHS I'm sure the more insults on their intelligence and work ethic they receive, the faster things will change, right?

[PanicPrime]

18 minutes ago, Xekrin said:

But you did wait for TWW, not to quit, but to complain ever so vocally.

Well yes, because that's what introduced all the things I don't like. I can't see into the future or I'd have complained well in advance.

 

19 minutes ago, Xekrin said:

Every thread about the 2k endo sprouts up now, why not 3 weeks ago? or 2 months ago?  As I said (in this thread? i lost track) I've done sorties every day since forever and in this super extended final season have gotten 2k endo nearly every day.

This time 2 months ago I got 2k endo, 4k, 4k, lens, 4k, weapon part, 4k, nezha piece, 2k, 2k, 4k

For the past 8 days all I have received is 2k endo. I'm not complaining that I didn't run 8 sorties and get 8 riven mods, I'm complaining that I ran 8 sorties and got the worst possible reward every time. I consider this unreasonable.

 

22 minutes ago, Xekrin said:

Whatever.  They know about the 2k thing that has been a problem for MONTHS I'm sure the more insults on their intelligence and work ethic they receive, the faster things will change, right?

I don't recall insulting their intelligence or work ethic. Not once did I ever complain that they worked slowly on TWW, despite my original excitement for it and wish it would come out weeks earlier. I never complained about any technical deficit that would suggest laziness or lack of technical ability. To this end I trust them. They work had, and they take as long as they feel they need. I may not like it but I don't complain. After all, who wants to receive a half-baked system filled with bugs?

My complaint is that this system is an attack on the player base that formed around this game on the grounds of fairness. The players who were happy to spend money in order to avoid the grind. Riven acquisition is 100% lottery grind, and there's no uniformity to them that would allow sales to be done en masse, like from warframe.market. Now you have to hunt through trade chat and hope for the best, and unopened riven mods are even harder to get hold of.

[(PSN)KainBethell]

Do I think the riven system is highly unrewarding and may lead to the downfall of warframe? No I'm a PS4 Tenno, but it does seem a bit unrewarding though

Better question is do I think the riven system continuing currently as it stands to secondary, melee, warframes and companions is a good thing for the game ? No

Is it going to stop me playing ? No

Below is the reason why:

Because I will be one of those players that have bought the best riven mods for all of my main play items

I will for a better word be “steal killing” everything on the alerts/sorties etc… because it will be so easy and will fill me with great joy, killing things in this game is why I play it and I love it for that

So again a better question to ask is when you repeatedly come across a players like me that will buy them for all their main items are you going to be happy that the riven mods are here ?

These mods will affect the PVE game, if you chose not to believe that good for you, just remember I told you what the future would look like if this stays on its current course

It doesn’t affect me if it stays or goes, but I can’t say that it will not affect a sizeable part of the Tenno community if this happens

[(PSN)HSomDevil]

8 hours ago, Arkvold said:

Yet I'm pretty sure this system is going to expand, and I'm going to be kicking myself later once the power-creep introduced by Riven Mods gets to the point where you are no longer endgame unless you're using them.

This worries me as well. They may be new as of now but soon there will be quite a few Riven mods around especially for the aforementioned Meta weapons.

Where is the content going to be balanced around, the regular modded Tonkor or the +200% dmg/+100% multishot Tonkor?

 

You either are no longer end-game viable or you buy the best mod for 1000 plat. (Which sounds dangerously like P2W to me)

And once people have paid absurd amounts of plat for Rivens and DE decides to nerf them, well... prepare for war. (again :D)

 

Inb4, DE's solution: Add nullifier enemies that shut down all weapons and spawn in droves. :P

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

Obviously the system needs work, but "downfall of warframe"? Calm down.

Like every other thing people hated since the game's release, the community will rage and DE will make adjustments. It's that simple. DE isn't looking to commit suicide with keeping something that people hate that much.

[---The-Operator---]

2 hours ago, KIREEK said:

The only thing that upsets me, is players who think these mods are bad just because they got stats they don't like and the ones who think these mods are mandatory now.

Players that afk or players that open the front door in a rescue to let the enemies in is a far greater problem gameplay wise than having player who plays without "mandatory riven mods", it's not the mods that will make you succeed more often or become more efficient.

RNG needs to be there so you don't get what you want so soon. I know you want instant gratification OP, but think it on the long term.

What are you even talking about?

people are worried about the riven system and the pay to win vibe around it.

No one is talking about instant gratification. *facepalm

[DxAdder]

33 minutes ago, (PS4)Riko_113 said:

Obviously the system needs work, but "downfall of warframe"? Calm down.

Like every other thing people hated since the game's release, the community will rage and DE will make adjustments. It's that simple. DE isn't looking to commit suicide with keeping something that people hate that much.

The Riven system is Broken. DE once again releases something that is no where near ready.

Right now you can get Riven Mod bonuses that have no use on a weapon WTF ? How did you miss this ? Armature hour programming...

They included some Meta Weapons, made them trad-able and then nerfed them ? Nice way to treat your players (BTW didn't happen to me)

Then there is the great Kuva hunt..... to get a chance to re-roll the 100% random stats on Riven Mod. DE calls this content.. I call it Free to Play Grind.

 

 

 

 

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

1 minute ago, DxAdder said:

The Riven system is Broken. DE once again releases something that is no where near ready.

Right now you can get Riven Mod bonuses that have no use on a weapon WTF ? How did you miss this ? Armature hour programming...

They included some Meta Weapons, made them trad-able and then nerfed them ? Nice way to treat your players (BTW didn't happen to me)

Then there is the great Kuva hunt..... to get a chance to re-roll the 100% random stats on Riven Mod. DE calls this content.. I call it Free to Play Grind.

 

 

 

 

" the community will rage and DE will make adjustments"

DE always tests their limits with the community by releasing content then changing it based on useful feedback from players.

The toxic Warframe Community puts DE in a tough place. They take their time working out mechanics and bugs. The community responds with "You're taking too @#$% long! Hurry up! >.<"

They hurry up. The community responds with "This is a broken piece of crap! Why didn't you take your time on it!? >.<"

Keep giving constructive feedback. It's what the developers need. 

[KIREEK]

46 minutes ago, ---The-Operator--- said:

What are you even talking about?

people are worried about the riven system and the pay to win vibe around it.

No one is talking about instant gratification. *facepalm

The mods are not mandatory to succced at the game, nowhere near the pay to win factor

Instant gratification is the thing here, seems obvious to me, may not be the case for others it seems

Edited November 21, 2016 by KIREEK

[achromos]

2 hours ago, KIREEK said:

The only thing that upsets me, is players who think these mods are bad just because they got stats they don't like and the ones who think these mods are mandatory now.

Players that afk or players that open the front door in a rescue to let the enemies in is a far greater problem gameplay wise than having player who plays without "mandatory riven mods", it's not the mods that will make you succeed more often or become more efficient.

RNG needs to be there so you don't get what you want so soon. I know you want instant gratification OP, but think it on the long term.

Instant gratification ruins investment but people don't care because they want their shinys unfortunately not realizing that they can turn a worth-while system that gives good mods value... into just another 20p mod.  Just another 'buy and forget' system.

 

[Coaa]

I don't understand how a system that allows you to take the top tier weapons, that already 1shot everything this game can throw at you, and make them stronger so you oneshot them still.

Or takes lower tier weapons that are barely used, and actually pushes them to a point of usability opening up more you can actually play with in the game.

Will destroy this game. I'm confused. All I hear is people complaining that they didn't get the absolute craziest stats on the mod right away and they hate the system for it. I have no sympathy for people who just expect to get everything right away.

[achromos]

Just now, Coaa said:

I don't understand how a system that allows you to take the top tier weapons, that already 1shot everything this game can throw at you, and make them stronger so you oneshot them still.

Or takes lower tier weapons that are barely used, and actually pushes them to a point of usability opening up more you can actually play with in the game.

Will destroy this game. I'm confused. All I hear is people complaining that they didn't get the absolute craziest stats on the mod right away and they hate the system for it. I have no sympathy for people who just expect to get everything right away.

Because people don't get their instant gratification, that's about 75% of the actual complaint.  The rest are people who hate RNG, which while I disagree with them that is wholly opinion based.

[Sziklamester]

If you ask me the riven mods an another bandaid solution like the primed and legendary mods. If they really wanted to help the weaker weapons then they look at the feedbacks and buff directly the weaker weapons and mods to be more competent to their op pairs but they instead added these to make salt. Everyone see differently this and there are some uses but the big picture is this. They have big plans but they seemingly hate the easier solutions and directly avoiding the real big subjects. We need instead more teen story and fancy cinematics. It is not a downfall that happend when they decided to come up from the closed beta.

[RoninJed]

Man all this feedback on riven mods being a bad idea...you think DE will listen? Yeah I don't think so either.

[Cloud]

22 hours ago, EyeLaikCheez said:

I agree, this whole system isn't as rewarding as it should be imo. And this applies to endless missions and sorties as well. There is nothing to motivate players to actually farm. Of course some people will luck out but that's a tiny percentage. Another thing to note is that these mods whether they are op as hell or not barely make a difference. You can only one shot and enemy, it can't get better than that so having guaranteed red crits and a 10x multiplier doesn't change anything. What Warframe needs right now, in my opinion, is a more rewarding system in order to reduce the RNG and a better end game in order to make these mods actually useful.

Exactly what I think.

[DxAdder]

44 minutes ago, (PS4)Riko_113 said:

" the community will rage and DE will make adjustments"

DE always tests their limits with the community by releasing content then changing it based on useful feedback from players.

The toxic Warframe Community puts DE in a tough place. They take their time working out mechanics and bugs. The community responds with "You're taking too @#$% long! Hurry up! >.<"

They hurry up. The community responds with "This is a broken piece of crap! Why didn't you take your time on it!? >.<"

Keep giving constructive feedback. It's what the developers need. 

It is Constructive... Don't release something until you know it works.. pretty simple.

There was no reason to rush the release of Riven Mods, the could have release these 6 months from now and the player base would have been none the wiser.

BUT when DE decides to release things broken on arrive and inconvenience there players they should know about and that feedback should be as blunt as possible so they don't do it again.

[Currilicious]

Let me say this first, I can understand why people that likes absolute efficiency to be unhappy with them.

For me personally, I would prefer they have flat stats mirroring existing mods. Introduce the lock in and/or merging of mods mechanism. I know this would mean some people would be done with the best few weapons. But I really find it fun building up some goofy gimmicky weapons. I pimped up the Amprex (Who you gonna call?) and Stug (marshmallow shooter) because I like the mechanism (and goofiness).

So, I for one will see more reason to play if realistic progression is in place rather than the current slot machine. These pull-lever-pray-to-RNGesus gameplay is why I got sick with Diablo 3 even though I have all characters in their endgame state when I left.

[DeadScream]

" We will find a way to make all weapon useful without mandatory damage mods.

- Hey, how about adding random mods with a chance at getting 200% more damage ? "

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

8 minutes ago, DxAdder said:

It is Constructive... Don't release something until you know it works.. pretty simple.

There was no reason to rush the release of Riven Mods, the could have release these 6 months from now and the player base would have been none the wiser.

BUT when DE decides to release things broken on arrive and inconvenience there players they should know about and that feedback should be as blunt as possible so they don't do it again.

I agree. Be blunt. But there's a massive different between being "blunt" and crying apocalypse (downfall of warframe) which is what this thread is doing. 

Also, this feature was not built into the foundation of gameplay, they didn't replace all mods with this system.. It is 100% optional. There's barely a thing in the game that can't be one-shotted with the mod system in place even before this. 

Continue giving constructive feedback, and leave out the unnecessary hyperbole. They'll fix it. Coding and debugging takes time. Especially since this is one of the only games ever that developers will even look in your direction once the game has been released. 99.999% (estimate) of all games ever made just let it go once they've got your money. 

[Zerathos_Dagon]

Totally agree with you man, the Riven system is pretty damn awful. It has a lot of potential in theory, but it has just been implemented in such a massively wrong way. In fact, I personally think Kuva itself is also implemented in a wrong way, though not on such a massive scale as the Riven system.

Farming Kuva is such a RNG-heavy and unnecessarily tedious experience, yet it is needed in massive quantities just to 'spin the wheel' and cycle Riven mods, as well as three new weapons (probably going to be more in the future).

Then there's the Riven system, which is just 100% RNG, a slot machine that has to be paid in a Tenno's blood and sweat of heavy grind in order to pull its lever. Combine this with the un-fun experience that is Kuva farming, and the purely luck-based and unrewarding results of the RIven mods, and you get a system that no sane player should ever want to participate in.

I for one will be completely ignoring the Riven system, and maybe even Kuva, until things get drastically changed with them.

[arch111]

I am worried about two things.

1) How is the game scaled now? Do the mobs scale really high if a Riven-mod is OP as hell?

2) Will this be a wedge that makes low and high MR completely separate? 

[marelooke]

On 20-11-2016 at 5:42 PM, --Q--Ascended-Seraphim said:

I farmed 100k worth of kuva and blew them on cycling mods to a maximum of 10 cycles each.

Some times you get 3 stats or the occasional 4. but most of the time you'll only get 2 stats. Pure luck. Didn't get anything particularly worthwhile from the grind.

There seriously is a need for players to lock in the stats that we want. Consistently rolling it over and over trying to strike the lottery feels like running headfirst into a wall hoping that the wall gives way before your skull breaks.

There is no sense of progression.

Only pure RNG. 

Which brings me to the next point.

You get random OP stats on rifles for now. Riven mods for Pistols, Melee, warframes, sentinels, pets will come soon enough. RNG and power creep galore.

And it's starting to feel like the Auction House in Diablo 3. Where it becomes more rewarding and efficient to gain top end gear through trading rather than actually playing the game and gaining progress.

 

 

Well, we all know how the AH in Diablo 3 ended...

I'm in "daily login"-mode until DE starts talking about *real* fixes for this system as the entire concept as it is just isn't salvageable (for reasons I mentioned multiple times before in the relevant feedback threads)

[AzureTerra]

11 hours ago, --Q--Ascended-Seraphim said:

The current method of Riven Mods based on pure RNG and no player control, creates an unclosable gap between those who play for free and those who  pay to win.

You will Never be on par with  110% crit chance, 110% crit damage, 110% multishot riven mod soma prime user.

Unless you shell out the plat. Or win the lottery.

The problem is compounded once Melee, warframe, sentinel etc. gets released.

Who cares if your not doing as much a X modded person is doing, as long as your within 50m of them when they are doing it. Unless your one of those people who cant play near others for fear of losing your "precious" kill numbers.