Ash Revisited Feedback Megathread

[izzatuw]

Just now, NativeKiller said:

Maybe for stealth since Bladestormed enemies leave no corpse.

 

...The new stealth system is so terribad, even with channeled melee attacks or silence weapons the enemies almost always get alerted.

But I don't think Bladestorm enables a stealth multiplier and due to how clunky it is you'll most likely be noticed by other enemies when executing it. If it was meant for single target what's the difference between using Fatal/Teleport?

[NativeKiller]

Just now, izzatuw said:

But I don't think Bladestorm enables a stealth multiplier and due to how clunky it is you'll most likely be noticed by other enemies when executing it. If it was meant for single target what's the difference between using Fatal/Teleport?

Honestly, that's my question too.

 

These days, I only use Ash for Infested missions to 'Fatal Teleport + Covert Lethality' the Juggernaut.

[Irorone]

1 minute ago, GreyEnneract said:

It's more of a trade-off than a nerf, since the base damage was increased. Not to mention applying 3 separate Slash procs at once now.

As for why they changed their mind on just letting you send out your clones only, no idea. Currently I mostly use it to just maintain a very long combo.

It's actually pretty solidly a nerf

Change in effective cast times means far fewer invuln frames meaning a drop in survivability.

The need to mark targets first which takes longer to activate an effective bladestorm than before.

The per mark costs means that against actually large groups of enemies the cost efficiency is WAY worse than before.

I heard the damage went up to trade off but not enough for a three-fold nerf.

[Kaiser_Suoh]

Every time DE touch/rework a warframe, they increase the amount of energy to use the 4th skill.

Always the same, they buff damage or fun, but they nerf energy consumption.

[GreyEnneract]

2 minutes ago, Irorone said:

It's actually pretty solidly a nerf

Change in effective cast times means far fewer invuln frames meaning a drop in survivability.

The need to mark targets first which takes longer to activate an effective bladestorm than before.

The per mark costs means that against actually large groups of enemies the cost efficiency is WAY worse than before.

I heard the damage went up to trade off but not enough for a three-fold nerf.

You trade efficiency (in cases where you actually need 3 marks, which is rare) for more damage.

You also trade easily marking 18 targets from before (only within that tile, and only striking 17 times) to being able to mark as many as your energy allows.

Then there's the 3 separate Slash procs instead of one from before, which lead me to being able to take down groups of Lv140 Corrupted Bombards in 3 marks.

If you the player weren't apart of the Bladestorm itself then it would be a buff overall, currently it's just a tradeoff with a similar result.

In the end, you're still watching a cutscene. Which was apparently what they wanted to fix in the first place, but didn't.

 

[paragasu]

don't forget the part where we still see screensaver

[Artekkor]

3 minutes ago, GreyEnneract said:

In the end, you're still watching a cutscene. Which was apparently what they wanted to fix in the first place, but didn't.

 

Not particularly true... They tried to get rid of the cutscene but then they said that they just couldn't replicate the awesome feeling that you get from it (yes, some people actually REALLY like it).
So instead they went to keep Bladestorm's original design but tweak it around to make it more engaging for both the Ash player and his team too.
Ash's marked targets are now vulnerable to other players so they don't feel robed of participation and Ash is being refunded on energy if someone kills his target.

I tried the new Ash and to be honest i like him a lot more now. Marking enemies manually feels good, it becomes a mini game of "try to mark as many as possible in a short time" and once you press 4 again i actually feel like i deserved to watch that cutscene, even if it takes much longer than before because we no longer have clones helping us.
Now if only they could finally fix the cutscene so that there were no visual bugs and model displacements.

I do think that they should return the clone-helpers though but i'm not sure why were they removed in the first place. Maybe they caused some technical issues as well?
The only thing that bothers me is that they promised to buff Bladestorm's damage dealt per attack to compensate, but i'm not sure if this held true and i can't check because i don't remember what number it was before the update. 2000 or something like that?

[GreyEnneract]

1 minute ago, Artek94 said:

Not particularly true... They tried to get rid of the cutscene but then they said that they just couldn't replicate the awesome feeling that you get from it (yes, some people actually REALLY like it).
So instead they went to keep Bladestorm's original design but tweak it around to make it more engaging for both the Ash player and his team too.
Ash's marked targets are now vulnerable to other players so they don't feel robed of participation and Ash is being refunded on energy if someone kills his target.

I tried the new Ash and to be honest i like him a lot more now. Marking enemies manually feels good, it becomes a mini game of "try to mark as many as possible in a short time" and once you press 4 again i actually feel like i deserved to watch that cutscene, even if it takes much longer than before because we no longer have clones helping us.
Now if only they could finally fix the cutscene so that there were no visual bugs and model displacements.

I do think that they should return the clone-helpers though but i'm not sure why were they removed in the first place. Maybe they caused some technical issues as well?
The only thing that bothers me is that they promised to buff Bladestorm's damage dealt per attack to compensate, but i'm not sure if this held true and i can't check because i don't remember what number it was before the update. 2000 or something like that?

Are you sure you've used it recently? The clones still help you. The only difference is that you as the player now only strike each enemy once, then the clones deal the leftover two marks. Which is somewhat of a good thing in the accidental case of marking a Disruptor. You no longer have to sit there and hit it for ~20s.

The base damage pre-change was 2,000. It is now 3,200. For some reason in the ship it still shows 2,000, however if you check in the Simulacrum it shows the true base damage (3,200), and testing it on enemies shows the same.

[PrimumMobile]

11 minutes ago, paragasu said:

don't forget the part where we still see screensaver

you mean powerpoint

[Artekkor]

10 minutes ago, GreyEnneract said:

Are you sure you've used it recently? The clones still help you. The only difference is that you as the player now only strike each enemy once, then the clones deal the leftover two marks. Which is somewhat of a good thing in the accidental case of marking a Disruptor. You no longer have to sit there and hit it for ~20s.

The base damage pre-change was 2,000. It is now 3,200. For some reason in the ship it still shows 2,000, however if you check in the Simulacrum it shows the true base damage (3,200), and testing it on enemies shows the same.

Huh.
I guess i never noticed the clones because i mark all enemies just once (i haven't played Sorties or anything above level 50 for a while...) so that's probably why.
And if that damage change is true then i don't get why people complain. 3200 finisher damage for a target for only 15 energy.
I mean i do understand why they complain - yes it was a nerf to what it was before but it still works doesn't it?
I'm not Warframe scientist but something tells me that's most efficient damage-dealing ability out there.

However it also means that Bladestorm is also #1 overkill ability too now...

Edited December 5, 2016 by Artek94

[Dragazer]

11 minutes ago, GreyEnneract said:

Are you sure you've used it recently? The clones still help you. The only difference is that you as the player now only strike each enemy once, then the clones deal the leftover two marks. Which is somewhat of a good thing in the accidental case of marking a Disruptor. You no longer have to sit there and hit it for ~20s.

The base damage pre-change was 2,000. It is now 3,200. For some reason in the ship it still shows 2,000, however if you check in the Simulacrum it shows the true base damage (3,200), and testing it on enemies shows the same.

Are you sure that is the base damage without steel charge?

2000*1.6=3200

[ChuckMaverick]

Another Bladestorm thread?

The feedback megathread is over here...

 

[Hypernaut1]

I use it just fine honestly. you're overreacting. 

It takes a bit of adjustment compared to using the old room nuke, but it's definitely not useless or ineffective.

 

[GreyEnneract]

Just now, Dragazer said:

Are you sure that is the base damage without steel charge?

2000*1.6=3200

Yes. I even took mods off to see if the Simulacrum showed the same numbers.

 

[Marvelous_A]

Don't really see how the new BS can help boosting DPS of Ash and it hardly has any real benefit for using BS over guns. Nor does it solve the problem of Ash e.g. cutscenes, enemies' invincibility. 

EDIT: I'm not saying the old BS is any better, what I meant is the new BS is pretty useless and I would rather have it replaced with a new ability.

Edited December 5, 2016 by Marvelous_A

[Irorone]

42 minutes ago, GreyEnneract said:

You trade efficiency (in cases where you actually need 3 marks, which is rare) for more damage.

You also trade easily marking 18 targets from before (only within that tile, and only striking 17 times) to being able to mark as many as your energy allows.

Then there's the 3 separate Slash procs instead of one from before, which lead me to being able to take down groups of Lv140 Corrupted Bombards in 3 marks.

If you the player weren't apart of the Bladestorm itself then it would be a buff overall, currently it's just a tradeoff with a similar result.

In the end, you're still watching a cutscene. Which was apparently what they wanted to fix in the first place, but didn't.

 

Compared to pre-rework bladestorm no, pre rework bladestorm could hit the same target a LOT more than three times and only costed 25 en minimum period you now have to spend a bit of energy to attack the same target five times and that's two casts because mark stacking caps at three if I remember.  Multi target generally everything already dead to something else in my party by the time I've popped bladestorm.

Except they're generally dead before I can pop said massive bladestorm so the marking cost difference becomes moot in that regard.  Also you can only hit marked targets within a certain range of yourself meaning just marking them isn't quite as simple as before anyway.  Pre rework with zenurik you could virtually perma bladestorm as long as you didn't get stuck on an en drain eximus.

Actually the bleed procs still stacked pre rework just most enemies were dead before it would really matter.

Except that you STILL can't damage enemies an ash is in the process of stabbing which was the only real logistical downside in group play.

I didn't mind the cutscene, DE's trying to move away from it because it translates to more development work down the road in the form of stabbing animations.

Edited December 5, 2016 by Irorone

[(XBOX)SweatyPick3L]

Just now, Dragazer said:

Are you sure that is the base damage without steel charge?

2000*1.6=3200

Not on console yet, getting ready for it...Whats the damage with Energy Conversion, power drift, growing power, and Trans Fort? 

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

if we're going down the road of "why would i..." than more than half of the games content is by that logic meaningless. Not everyone plays min max and preference is as always relevant. You're much better off just saying you don't like the changes. because its not like pre nerf ash was better than your optimal tonkor build.

I for one like what they did with ash. Maybe people need to stop thinking re works objectively buff the warframe. As i recall they never said they were aiming to change what ashes 4 did. Just how its done.

[Nazrethim]

48 minutes ago, izzatuw said:

2-3(?) weeks with the Bladestorm nerf and I'm struggling to see its use :/

When you think of a rework or an ultimate you want fun and useful.

Truth be told, this rework had the intention to make Blade Storm more interactive and nerf the spammy madness it was (Miramulor will follow suit with some sheer good luck)

48 minutes ago, izzatuw said:

I personally only find his Bladestorm to only be subjectively fun but fact wise, it's not nearly as useful.

You no longer get stuck stabbing the same dude F**ktons of times and the damage is high enough you can wipe the floor with pretty much anything.

48 minutes ago, izzatuw said:

Here's the thing, you deliberately leave enemies alive only to kill them later. How is this a good thing? Marked enemies don't get debuffed, they're not slowed down, they don't take extra damage. They're simply just marked for death for the next couple of seconds. 

If you have them marked for more than 3 seconds, you are playing it wrong.

48 minutes ago, izzatuw said:

Why would I deliberately want to leave enemies alive? I could grab a Tonkor or a Simulor and get the same results for less of a hassle. Pair up Mirage with Syn-Simulor and you pretty much get the same results as the new Bladestorm but much more effeciently.

Again, Ash is now for fast pace combat and reflex aiming at blinding speeds while parkournig. The "stand behind a crate and cast" is gone for good. Tonkor needs either it's damage nerfed to compensate for lack of self damage or self damage to justify it's ludicrous damage. Miramulor needs to be nerfed next, mostly in the form of Clone!Simulor no longer creating singularity orbs.

48 minutes ago, izzatuw said:

I could grab Nova, wait for Zenurik and use her 4th. I can actively kill people while waiting for her 4th to spread out so I can kill more people but with less of a hassle.

 

Molecular Prime is a damage increasing debuff paired with chain reaction kill, it's very different from blade storm. Also should respect LoS.

48 minutes ago, izzatuw said:

If I wanted to target "high" priority targets I would much rather use Fatal Teleport and use much less energy. 

Well, DE's answer to "How do you plan to fix the issue where Teleport and BS overlap?" was a big shrug.

48 minutes ago, izzatuw said:

As of now Ash's ult feels like one huge gimmick outside of level 100+ enemies and even then Fatal Teleport > Bladestorm.

Ash is just as powerful as he was pre-rework.

[Avereth]

My biggest issue with the new bladestorm is that I can't think of any reason you wouldn't use Mesa in the same situation since instead of marking they're already dead from your guns.

[Nazrethim]

6 minutes ago, Artek94 said:

Huh.
I guess i never noticed the clones because i mark all enemies just once (i haven't played Sorties or anything above level 50 for a while...) so that's probably why.
And if that damage change is true then i don't get why people complain. 3200 finisher damage for a target for only 15 energy.
I mean i do understand why they complain - yes it was a nerf to what it was before but it still works doesn't it?
I'm not Warframe scientist but something tells me that's most efficient damage-dealing ability out there.

However it also means that Bladestorm is also #1 overkill ability too now...

 

1 minute ago, (XB1)FCastle74 said:

Not on console yet, getting ready for it...Whats the damage with Energy Conversion, power drift, growing power, and Trans Fort? 

Don't forget that Blade Storm is affected by the melee combo counter and body count/drifting contact. So the damage goes into oneshot territory pretty quickly, no need to multimark usually.

[Artekkor]

1 minute ago, Nazrethim said:

 

Don't forget that Blade Storm is affected by the melee combo counter and body count/drifting contact. So the damage goes into oneshot territory pretty quickly, no need to multimark usually.

Get body count, get a fast dagger / something with a range of half of a room (whips most likely), get your combo meter to at least x2 then use Bladestorm.

One word: "ouch".

[NativeKiller]

27 minutes ago, Avereth said:

My biggest issue with the new bladestorm is that I can't think of any reason you wouldn't use Mesa in the same situation since instead of marking they're already dead from your guns.

Exactly, I knew this would happen when I heard how Ash's rework was going to happen.

 

...I actually wonder if D.E themselves also knew that this would happen.

 

None of them seems to be really playing the game, right?

Edited December 5, 2016 by NativeKiller

[Nazrethim]

Just now, Artek94 said:

Get body count, get a fast dagger / something with a range of half of a room (whips most likely), get your combo meter to at least x2 then use Bladestorm.

One word: "ouch".

Gunblades with Bullet Dance rack a decent combo counter in seconds since they get 1 hit per pellet.

[Dragazer]

14 minutes ago, GreyEnneract said:

Yes. I even took mods off to see if the Simulacrum showed the same numbers.

 

Yeah, I don't think you took off steel charge lol:

 

Just got this off simulacrum no mods.

As you can see, the main damage is 1997 (For some reason the number isn't exact, its been like this for a long time) 

and the bleed tick is 875 (43.75% of 2000 is 875)

 

So what we basically have here is a straight up nerf with no trade offs

Edited December 5, 2016 by Dragazer