Ash Revisited Feedback Megathread

[Nazrethim]

hace 7 horas, (PS4)CoolD2108 dijo:

But that's no reason to replace his current self with something like, idk, a Bladestorm void themed stance ability, is it?

Well, Limbo is a dimensional wizard and rather squishy, so having a stance wouldn't make much sense. At best a super wizard mode with ranged magic combos and boosts to his other abilities, but not precisely a melee stance.

Ash on the other hand is a warrior ninja, he is melee oriented and his current 4th is redundant and ineffective outside of very specific (and expensive) setups. And even then is not better than just using your guns or other powers. And the visuals and audio don't match the mechanics, said mechanics are outdated and clunky. blah blah blah etcetera etcetera etcetera.

So a Stance supermode for Ash would fit if it's designed around his theme and specialy: a Warrior Ninja Damage Dealer Assassin/Skirmisher. So it must be something that works on direct combat but also favors assassination style of gameplay. Giving it the power to deal with small crowds of enemies quickly (not exactly a mass nuker but not a target-by-target assassin either) would just be the icing on the cake and finally fix the frame.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 6 Stunden schrieb Somi_xD:

.

But mocking other player just because they bring up their opinion and forcing your point of view on them?

 

 

Isn't that what everyone here seems to do with the devs? They change frames to make them fit theyr ideal. To fix buggs and, at one point, to make every frame stand on an equal ground that leaves no room for an unbalanced meta. But everyone here trys to force theyr own point of view onto the devs, talks about "bad design" what's literally an insult to theyr work.

But yeah, you'all > the people who made/manage the game cause specific content doesn't fit you.

Edited January 28, 2018 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[Yperkeimenos]

Ash is indeed less fun to play when compared to other frames. His deluxe skin looks great, his noble stance is good , but his fourth ability is clunky and awkward. Also the bladestorm cinematic, where we just sit back and watch him attack enemies, has to go.

[Nazrethim]

hace 18 horas, (PS4)CoolD2108 dijo:

Isn't that what everyone here seems to do with the devs? They change frames to make them fit theyr ideal. To fix buggs and, at one point, to make every frame stand on an equal ground that leaves no room for an unbalanced meta. But everyone here trys to force theyr own point of view onto the devs, talks about "bad design" what's literally an insult to theyr work.

But yeah, you'all > the people who made/manage the game cause specific content doesn't fit you.

So, you are saying a frame with a 4th that flat out doesn't work unless you have a very specific build is on equal ground with other 4ths that work by default?

And remember I don't call BS in it's current form bad design just because "i don't like it". I'm objectively pointing out critical design flaws in it's implementation vs the original (stated) objectives. BS right now is an inferior design to it's pre-nerf form. And if the previous form was "bad" then current one is worse than bad.

[Hypernaut1]

37 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

So, you are saying a frame with a 4th that flat out doesn't work unless you have a very specific build is on equal ground with other 4ths that work by default?

And remember I don't call BS in it's current form bad design just because "i don't like it". I'm objectively pointing out critical design flaws in it's implementation vs the original (stated) objectives. BS right now is an inferior design to it's pre-nerf form. And if the previous form was "bad" then current one is worse than bad.

There is nothing objective or even realistic about what you're saying. 

It's why you can't be taken seriously.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor einer Stunde schrieb Hypernaut1:

There is nothing objective or even realistic about what you're saying. 

It's why you can't be taken seriously.

What he's trying to say is that you can't p4tw without mods.... what refers to PvP and summs up his whole agenda really.

[Nazrethim]

hace 1 hora, (PS4)CoolD2108 dijo:

What he's trying to say is that you can't p4tw without mods.... what refers to PvP and summs up his whole agenda really.

In PvP it isn't pointless, it's outright detrimental

[(XBOX)weedyodaa]

Mirror, Mirror, on the wall.. 

Which "aSH sUckS aFTeR hIS rEwoRKS" topic posts will top them all? 

[Hypernaut1]

33 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

In PvP it isn't pointless, it's outright detrimental

Lol.... Now I know you're trolling.

Edit: oh, I first thought you were saying that bladestorm in PvP was detrimental to game.

PvP application is of no concern to most players. They can give him a stance there for all l care

Edited January 29, 2018 by Hypernaut1

[Nazrethim]

hace 3 horas, (Xbox One)Mythical Warden dijo:

Mirror, Mirror, on the wall.. 

Which "aSH sUckS aFTeR hIS rEwoRKS" topic posts will top them all? 

When the sh*tty 4th is reworked. Yes.

 

hace 2 horas, Hypernaut1 dijo:

Lol.... Now I know you're trolling.

Edit: oh, I first thought you were saying that bladestorm in PvP was detrimental to game.

PvP application is of no concern to most players. They can give him a stance there for all l care

No no, I'm saying (quite accurately) that even attempting to use BS in PvP is more detrimental to the user than to the victim. It deals too little damage, is too clunky to use, it has pointless "setup" for a single target ability, it has too short range, it fails the cost-risk-benefit analisis pretty badly. It simply needs either massive buffs or a complete rework. But since we are at it why not fix the broken PvE version too? Kill two grunts with a single finisher so to say.

Honestly, as I said many times, the Stance is just the most effective 'full rework' path to fix the dem ability, but adding several tweaks and QoLs to current failstorm could also do the trick, namely adressing the broken energy cost, making duration over efficiency an actual thing, removing the redundant multimarking and speeding up the execution phase as fast as pre-nerf or faster (not sure if instant).

[Redfeather75]

I seriously love his 4th. I've outlived entire groups amid a battlefield of chaos just from coolly using his 4th once shields are down.

[Somi_xD]

Am 28.1.2018 um 19:15 schrieb (PS4)CoolD2108:

Isn't that what everyone here seems to do with the devs? They change frames to make them fit theyr ideal. To fix buggs and, at one point, to make every frame stand on an equal ground that leaves no room for an unbalanced meta. But everyone here trys to force theyr own point of view onto the devs, talks about "bad design" what's literally an insult to theyr work.

But yeah, you'all > the people who made/manage the game cause specific content doesn't fit you.

Sorry :'D but that is really stupid.
Don't confuse a Player/Player relation with a Player/Dev relation.
People who smack-talk other people in a forum just because they are pissed (out of any reason) isn't even close to a "customer" and a Company.

Sure they do the game like they imagine it to be, but we the people who "consume" the product need also to be satisfied to a certain degree.
You point it out as if Warframe is just a privat project.
We are allowed to give our feedback, suggestions etc. (and i agree, that not everybody gives their feedback in a mannered, well written way)
Playerfeedback can be much better, because there are enought player who invest much more time into a char then the Devs can do.

To be more specific.
1. For the Ash Rework - DE asks for feedback, we give it.
There are some bad written feedback that is more of an complaint, but there are really much good feedback - out of a objectiv perspective.
Ashs rework is based on the most vocal complaint in here - you stuck in BS, but they misunderstood it, "making it more interactive" wasn't the main complaint at all.
2. What is wrong with this thread?
He says his opinion, what he experience and makes a suggestion in a polite way.
Most reactions summed up " Oh wha wha another crybaby, get out of this forum"

So, if somebody says, that he doesn't like your handwriting and it can be improved this way - this would be an insult to you?
I would say you can't take criticism.

The only "insult" i see comes from people like you with comments like "oh boy - another idi*ot comes to complain"
Let us just close this forum - because some people hate to see feedback on the game.

I don't even know why i bother myself with this - most people are unteachable...

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor einer Stunde schrieb Somi_xD:

Sorry :'D but that is really stupid.
Don't confuse a Player/Player relation with a Player/Dev relation.
 

Oh, don't mind me pointing out that there's actually people working theyr a**es off behind the title of dev. Spare me the excuses, will ya.

This is a F2p title. You couldn't even say that you could expect certain things for the money you paid cause it's 100% optional...What kinda reduces the whole topic to rude people insulting people that provide them a great game for free.

You're correct to an extend, there is a difference between a p-p and p-dev realationship, in this case it's nothing that would favor that point tho.

Edited January 29, 2018 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[Lomberdia]

People sleeping on my boy ash. too good. people dont understand how OP he is.

[DroopingPuppy]

On 2018. 1. 27. at 7:36 AM, Shad0wWatcher said:

Holy crap there are still new threads about this? I actually get to use this GIF sooner than i thought.

Keep at it guys...keep it up.

No smoke without fire, sir. The thread rises when there is a problem. Actually, it is strange that wonders why it keeps raised, despite it is natural to do.

'there are still new threads about this' only proves there is a hugh problem out there. You are only eager to look away from this.

Edited January 30, 2018 by DroopingPuppy

[Nazrethim]

hace 5 horas, DroopingPuppy dijo:

No smoke without fire, sir. The thread rises when there is a problem. Actually, it is strange that wonders why it keeps raised, despite it is natural to do.

'there are still new threads about this' only proves there is a hugh problem out there. You are only eager to look away from this.

Specially when it's not old vets who already made threads before making new threads. But there are new players, players who weren't here before the revisit, making threads to point out blade storm is bad.

"Too slow, Too expensive, Too clunky" along those lines the theme goes.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb Nazrethim:

Specially when it's not old vets who already made threads before making new threads. But there are new players, players who weren't here before the revisit, making threads to point out blade storm is bad.

"Too slow, Too expensive, Too clunky" along those lines the theme goes.

Inspired by "old vets"....you guys really. Noone else. 

People who start speaking for Ash once they actually go ahead and...ya know, try him. Become able to actually grasp his kit before stating nonsense.

Nonsense like how expensive it is, when it auguments weapon play and returns energy. How expensive it is for the damage you get.

Like how slow it is before even using a single mod that amplifys its speed, before comming to the conclusion that it scales really well.

How clunky it is when they try to abuse it. 

Cause that's something to feel confirmed about....people who should know it better refering to people who know nothing about him...brilliant.

Edited January 30, 2018 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[Nazrethim]

hace 11 minutos, (PS4)CoolD2108 dijo:

Inspired by "old vets"....you guys really. Noone else. 

That is possible. What I said may be too.

Both are valid statements.

hace 11 minutos, (PS4)CoolD2108 dijo:

People who start speaking for Ash once they actually go ahead and...ya know, try him. Become able to actually grasp his kit before stating nonsense.

Nonsense like how expensive it is, when it auguments weapon play and returns energy. How expensive it is for the damage you get.

It doesn't augment jacksquat. It doesn't buff your melee weapon, it doesn't add anything other than draining energy that can be directed to more useful stuff (assuming you aren't using an infinite energy setup anyway) and wasting time once it's actually activated. Damage is meaningless if it is so slow it can't counter enemy spawn rates on a dire situation, which BS never does, regardless of build.

hace 11 minutos, (PS4)CoolD2108 dijo:

Like how slow it is before even using a single mod that amplifys its speed, before comming to the conclusion that it scales really well.

Sure, because when an ability requires an Arcane, a Primed Mod locked behind hundreds of logins and a specific RNG riven mod that may never come to be remotely useful in terms of speed (not good, just useful) it's totally reasonable.

hace 11 minutos, (PS4)CoolD2108 dijo:

How clunky it is when they try to abuse it. 

They try to do what the ability tells you to do: activate, mark as much as possible, then release to destroy.

At no point the game tells you "oh yeah this thing that turns your colorful game dem SEPIA must be on all the dem time and use as a finisher when you are down to the last 3-4 dudes you left behind two rooms behind and no longer matter to the current situation, btw get a super broken infinite energy build and stack like +150% extra attack speed before use"

hace 11 minutos, (PS4)CoolD2108 dijo:

Cause that's something to feel confirmed about....people who should know it better refering to people who know nothing about him...brilliant.

Defending something clearly broken on a "isn't worth using other than for sh*ts and giggles" way is a sensible aproach, aparently. Tell you what. You go use a build someone who hasn't been at this game for more than six months would use, then come back and tell me "ah yeah Blade Storm is totally awesome". You won't.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

Doesn't aaugument? You know exactly what i'm talking about. Don't play dumb cause we're in a new thread.

[Eljureo]

Nothing could be further from the truth. Ash is briliant. #1 with augment epic scales to any level. #2 invisibility is again special thanks to focus changes. #3 can kill any target wirh a dagger... #4 clunky but gets the job done.

#4 really has poor mechanics. Clunky.. But it does not lack power.

Then there is slash passive. In damage 2.0 Slash is king of damage types. 

Base stats are also very decent. Speed, armor, health... (nobody should care about shields)..

I do agree 4. Needs a change, but not by a lot.

[Sahansral]

vor 6 Minuten schrieb Eljureo:

Nothing could be further from the truth. Ash is briliant. #1 with augment epic scales to any level. #2 invisibility is again special thanks to focus changes. #3 can kill any target wirh a dagger... #4 clunky but gets the job done.

#4 really has poor mechanics. Clunky.. But it does not lack power.

Then there is slash passive. In damage 2.0 Slash is king of damage types. 

Base stats are also very decent. Speed, armor, health... (nobody should care about shields)..

I do agree 4. Needs a change, but not by a lot.

This. Ash is ...solid. But his 4 feels more like a relic of the past and lacks fun. DE's design of warframe powers improved quite a bit over the last year and I wish Ash would get a bit tweaking.

Edited January 30, 2018 by Sahansral

[Nazrethim]

Indeed.

Ash is amaizing. His first 3 powers and their augments boost both melee and gunplay.

The 4th is as good as it's Augment.

Spoiler

Smoke Shadow still needs to be affected by Range though, or leave a cloud behind that allows others to walk in to get the cover.

 

Edited January 30, 2018 by Nazrethim

[ZodiacShinryu]

13 hours ago, DroopingPuppy said:

No smoke without fire, sir. The thread rises when there is a problem. Actually, it is strange that wonders why it keeps raised, despite it is natural to do.

'there are still new threads about this' only proves there is a hugh problem out there. You are only eager to look away from this.

That's not exactly true. Threads generally rise when there is a perceived problem not necessarily an actual problem. The problem with that is how do you actually parse a problem that is most likely subjective or a problem that might not even be within the current subject (like ability behavior vs energy economy)? It is dev discretion and no action isn't necessarily a lack of listening as no matter what they do they'll likely be crucified for it. To say I like the way Bladestorm feels even though it has flaws but how do you adjust that without losing it?

The problem I have with Bladestorm is that it and Teleport (especially with the augment) share too much in common not so much that it is clunky and slow. That being said when used together they synergize fairly well and to me is a lot less clunky. (If you want) Apply your invis methods (and there is a number of ways to do that) > Activate BS > Teleport/Finisher > Mark more targets in animation lock > Release BS > repeat. I mark targets when I am not doing anything else anyway then BS to clean up.

The larger problem then becomes that I believe they went backwards in the clone integration. I think Ash himself attacks every first mark on an enemy (at least it feels like it) and his clones do the other two if they survive. It just ends up being needlessly long. However I think it was done this way to lessen the occurrence of one of the reasons Old BS was reworked in the first place, invincibility frames for enemies during finishers. Personally I think that limiting the strikes to 3 per enemy already would lessen that problem already but I am sure others would still feel otherwise.

Would I be fine with another BS rework? Sure. They could just roll Ash's Hidden Blades into Teleport finishers (becoming a de facto BS) and do something completely different. Do they need to? Not in the least.

[Azamagon]

Ok, before going into any specifics in regards to Bladestorm, let's first look at his kit overall, how it "meshes" or potentially overlaps.

We have Smoke Screen. It fills a unique role in his kit; Invisibility (and thus survivability) and an AoE ministun.
Then we have Teleport. This grants him mobility and single-target nuking.
After that, we have Shuriken. A highly spammable ability that softens up enemies (a lot more so with the augment). It's not great, but it does aid to deal with trash (and with tough unfinisherable enemies, like bosses, if augmented).

Then... Bladestorm. What is it trying to accomplish that his other abilities already doesn't do?
* It makes him invulnerable, but technically immobile, during the actual attack-portion of the cast. So it grants him a different form of survivability (different enough from Smoke Screen).
* It makes him nuke several units consecutively, making it seem like mainly being a tool to nuke trash mobs. Similar to Shuriken.
* But it's also rather slow and on the more powerful side of things, so it can also aid with tough units. Similar to Teleport.

So, Bladestorm just overlaps really heavily with Shuriken and Teleport.
If it's meant to be his main tool to deal with trash mobs, then what is the purpose of Shuriken? (Plus, BS is currently far too slow to be considered to be a crowd-nuker)
If it's meant to deal with tough targets, then what's the point of Teleport (aside from some mobility)?

Imo, I think a good idea when looking at Bladestorm is to also look at the kit as a whole.

I mean, this is a wild hypothetical rework-idea, but lemme just give an idea of how a "total kit overlook" could potentially be done:
* Smoke Screen remains as it is (Keeping its survivability/stealth role)
* Shuriken now throws 3 stars; 1 is straightflying (so you have control over it), 2 are homing. Enemies struck by the stars are OPENED TO FINISHERS. (Giving it the "deal with heavies" role)
* Teleport simply teleports Ash forward (similar to Itzal's Blink), while also heavily buffing his attackspeed briefly. (Giving it a mobility and buffing role). Cost heavily reduced (like 10 energy?).
* Bladestorm now is performed MUCH faster by, for example, having all marked targets attacked superduper radiply, which could be done by continuously adding an additional clone to aid the assaults every 0,2 seconds or so, so that he goes through all the targets much, much, MUCH faster. (Giving it the crowdnuking role).

While I wouldn't exactly promote that kit rework, here you at least would see that each ability has a clearly distinct purpose, unlike his current kit.

 

[Nazrethim]

hace 3 horas, ZodiacShinryu dijo:

The larger problem then becomes that I believe they went backwards in the clone integration. I think Ash himself attacks every first mark on an enemy (at least it feels like it) and his clones do the other two if they survive.

That is correct. If you mark, say, 10 enemies, you will watch 10 cutscenes. Mark 20 enemies, 20 cutscenes. The clones only finish off the second and third mark if they are applied and the target isn't insantly killed. This also means there's energy wasted if the target surivved with a sliver of health that the bleed would have consumed anyway.

They are rather pointless really. What the Multimark Clone attack does is multiply the damage per target of Blade Storm by x2 or x3, while multiplying the cost for the same value. Considering BS hits hard enough already, and that it's very expensive (150 energy for 10 enemies, 100 if invisible) doubling or trippling the cost of overkill damage doesn't make any sense.

hace 3 horas, ZodiacShinryu dijo:

It just ends up being needlessly long.

That's just because Ash has to attack everyone individually. The ability having a high mark cap (50 targets, up to 3 marks on each)*

hace 3 horas, ZodiacShinryu dijo:

However I think it was done this way to lessen the occurrence of one of the reasons Old BS was reworked in the first place, invincibility frames for enemies during finishers. Personally I think that limiting the strikes to 3 per enemy already would lessen that problem already but I am sure others would still feel otherwise.

We had an alternative that actually solved the problem.

hace 3 horas, ZodiacShinryu dijo:

Would I be fine with another BS rework? Sure. They could just roll Ash's Hidden Blades into Teleport finishers (becoming a de facto BS) and do something completely different. Do they need to? Not in the least.

BS in it's current form cannot exactly be left as it is, because it's too redundant. A complete rework may solve it, but with a few tweaks it could be worthwhile using again for it's intended purpose (hint: it's not single target assassination)

 

hace 2 horas, Azamagon dijo:

I mean, this is a wild hypothetical rework-idea, but lemme just give an idea of how a "total kit overlook" could potentially be done:

* Smoke Screen remains as it is (Keeping its survivability/stealth role)
* Shuriken now throws 3 stars; 1 is straightflying (so you have control over it), 2 are homing. Enemies struck by the stars are OPENED TO FINISHERS. (Giving it the "deal with heavies" role)
* Teleport simply teleports Ash forward (similar to Itzal's Blink), while also heavily buffing his attackspeed briefly. (Giving it a mobility and buffing role). Cost heavily reduced (like 10 energy?).

Small tweaks.

Also, Smoke Shadow could finally be affected by range or at least leave a small cloud behind that allies can enter to get the invisibility. And Rising Storm changed to a flat value of 8-12s at max rank.

There's the question of what to do with Fatal Teleport. Maybe change it to "Deadly Momentum: killing an enemy with a finisher restores x amount of energy" or something?

hace 2 horas, Azamagon dijo:

* Bladestorm now is performed MUCH faster by, for example, having all marked targets attacked superduper radiply, which could be done by continuously adding an additional clone to aid the assaults every 0,2 seconds or so, so that he goes through all the targets much, much, MUCH faster. (Giving it the crowdnuking role).

While I wouldn't exactly promote that kit rework, here you at least would see that each ability has a clearly distinct purpose, unlike his current kit.

 

A bit like Nekros desecrate that starts "slow" but then like popcorn it speeds up as more corpses are disintegrated? That would work, and justify the clones existance by making them once again assist rather than follow.