Ash Revisited Feedback Megathread

[SlicerGT]

If I could make changes to Ash, I would keep the current system, returned AOE bladestorm, reduced its radius, redused marked enemies to 5-6 max and balaced energy cost / damage around it. So, you enter bladestorm mode, mark one enemy and every other enemy that in a small area(10m for example) near him will become marked as well. You press 4 to execute them and thats it.

The difference is that you will not be killing hordes of enemies by one click like before Ash rework, but it will be fast enough for you to play the game between bladestorm attacks. And there still will be enemies for your teammates as well, because your AOE is not big enough.

[Hypernaut1]

....

Edited February 19, 2018 by Hypernaut1

[SlicerGT]

It is inconvinient and boring, in my opinion

[Nazrethim]

hace 13 horas, Anthraxicus dijo:

I think Ash is fun to play now. My only concern is that DE didn't address the most problematic part of Bladestorm, which is marking targets.

They should implement that suggestion to add a aiming circle, similar to Mesa. That would make it a lot quicker to mark targets amidst a mayhem.

Shuriken has become pretty much obsolete as a ranged attack that doesn't interrupt you though, as BS does it better. That is a fail in design right there.

 

hace 8 horas, SlicerGT dijo:

If I could make changes to Ash, I would keep the current system, returned AOE bladestorm, reduced its radius, redused marked enemies to 5-6 max and balaced energy cost / damage around it. So, you enter bladestorm mode, mark one enemy and every other enemy that in a small area(10m for example) near him will become marked as well. You press 4 to execute them and thats it.

The difference is that you will not be killing hordes of enemies by one click like before Ash rework, but it will be fast enough for you to play the game between bladestorm attacks. And there still will be enemies for your teammates as well, because your AOE is not big enough.

Funny how I actually suggested that as part of a Stance BStorm. Just make it a stance that makes Finisher attacks during it affect small groups of enemies around the main victim (so, say, you Finish one dude and 4 clones do the same on 4 nearby enemies in a 5-7m radius). That also made BS not overlap with any of his other abilities, actually have synergy with Teleport instead of more overlap and make for a more varied combat that was still apropiate for a melee oriented frame like Ash.

[(PSN)Carnatus]

12 hours ago, Dragazer said:

Yeah and let the enemies get the full 3 marks right away. Having to sweep my mouse 3 times over each enemy is just adding unnecessary clunkiness 

Some of us have to aim with an analog stick. Not quite as ergonomic.

It's strange, the PS4 can have a mouse and keyboard attached to it- why isn't there an option to play it with the mouse and keyboard?
(is there? and if so, how?)

[(PSN)kingbrown2012]

Well I have tried venka prime with all the combo counter mods and have now be 1 shotting everything with 1 mark for bladestorm

[Anthraxicus]

10 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

Shuriken has become pretty much obsolete as a ranged attack that doesn't interrupt you though, as BS does it better. That is a fail in design right there.

 

Funny how I actually suggested that as part of a Stance BStorm. Just make it a stance that makes Finisher attacks during it affect small groups of enemies around the main victim (so, say, you Finish one dude and 4 clones do the same on 4 nearby enemies in a 5-7m radius). That also made BS not overlap with any of his other abilities, actually have synergy with Teleport instead of more overlap and make for a more varied combat that was still apropiate for a melee oriented frame like Ash.

Shuriken had basically one purpose anyway: strip armor.

[An8rchy]

9 minutes ago, Anthraxicus said:

Shuriken had basically one purpose anyway: strip armor.

this

[Azamagon]

4 hours ago, Anthraxicus said:

Shuriken had basically one purpose anyway: strip armor.

Again, augments shouldn't be necessary to make an ability have a niche in the kit.

[XaoGarrent]

4 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

Again, augments shouldn't be necessary to make an ability have a niche in the kit.

Then remove the augment and bake the functionality into the base power. There are a ton of abilities with augments that really shouldn't be augments, and a ton of really useless 1s. This isn't really anything new or out of the normal within warframe.

[Azamagon]

2 hours ago, XaoGarrent said:

Then remove the augment and bake the functionality into the base power. There are a ton of abilities with augments that really shouldn't be augments, and a ton of really useless 1s. This isn't really anything new or out of the normal within warframe.

Disagreed to a pretty big extent. A lot of augments upgrade abilities that are already functional at a base. Bandaids, as many call them, are actually quite few.

The big difference between Shuriken and most other abilities (even the "bandaided" ones) is that without the augment, Shuriken does nothing distinct besides damage, something which Bladestorm already does better and cheaper. No other ability is 100% eclipsed by another ability in the Warframe's own kit.

Random example: While World on Fire may do better DPS than Fireball by a pretty large margin, Fireball now has the utility of a lingering napalm, which can stunlock enemies with repeated Heat-procs, even after you leave that area, giving you a reliable choke-point ability (remember that WoF's targetting is random). Plus, Fireball can be cast at a much further range. In that way, WoF doesn't ENTIRELY eclipse Fireball. Contrast that to Shuriken vs Bladestorm -> Everything Shuriken can do, Bladestorm can both do stronger and cheaper. It's just entirely useless now.

In other words, no, it doesn't need to have the augment baked in, but it needs some other utility (such as stagger, or immobilize enemies, or whatever else really), which Bladestorm can't provide. Preferably some utility which synergizes naturally with the rest of his kit.

[XaoGarrent]

2 hours ago, Azamagon said:

Disagreed

Okay, just know that reality doesn't agree with you very well.

[Nazrethim]

hace 2 horas, XaoGarrent dijo:

Okay, just know that reality doesn't agree with you very well.

translation: "DE's hack design doesn't live up to the basic logic of a player who knows the difference between good design and bad design"

[Dragazer]

This alone would make BS feel great to use again

[Shad0wWatcher]

I find it amazing how i keep finding myself coming back to this thread, Ash's bladestorm....hm...it's now been a good 2 weeks(2 weeks?...2 weeks) and i gotta say right now...tho it's a handy thing...by that i mean being able to send i clones without having to go there...but i gotta also admit that right now i'm doing even less than before. The big problem every Ash player had with bladestorm (aside from its clunky design), was the interactivity, or rather, the lack there of. But at the very least Ash was killing his targets himself. But now, that itself is optional, but should that really be a thing?

Yeah sure in terms of this game it's handy to use on the fly. But i thought that the point of the 4th abilities was, killing the enemy by utilizing the thing that your current warframe is most known for, in Ash's case(or what it should be) it's killing your enemies in...admittedly...a rather brutal way himself(himself!). And making the killing enemies himself an optional thing is nice and all...but in all seriousness people...who is gonna use that? Why would you? If your Ash is built correctly, enemies die really damn fast.

Hell QuiteShy/Quite Shallow made a point of this showing Ash using his current Clonestorm, and just then sitting down while his clones take care of business, and yeah that seems efficient, but that's not really great design, especially if the first problem of the ability was the lack of an actual participation in his own ability. And how the ability is now really runs that point home. She put it hilariously bold(tho admittedly kinda true) "Ash is now an embodiment of idiot design, his bladestorm requires even less thought than the old one (as she proceeds to go invisible, use bladestorm on some bombards, and then sits down while the clones kill the targets), shuriken is strong because of it's auto aim and guaranteed slash proc." And while i disagree with the bit about shuriken, the part about bladestorm(Clonestorm) is kinda true.

People coming at me saying that by that logic, Assassins creed should then also be a game with bad design cause they use this as well...but that game is designed around assassination, this game is designed around an endless horde mode.

Edited February 21, 2018 by Shad0wWatcher

[Soketsu]

Incredible, this thread is not dead yet ?

Question to ash lover/user, BS is usable again with the last rework? Or still a niche spell ?

[Nazrethim]

hace 15 horas, Soketsu dijo:

Incredible, this thread is not dead yet ?

Question to ash lover/user, BS is usable again with the last rework? Or still a niche spell ?

Usable, still niche. It's still slow as a snail, and the cost is too high if you aren't invisible, and it's still clunky in the targeting mechanic, and you can still go make a sandwich while it plays. But at least you are no longer forced to watch all the cutscenes, you can just cast it and go take other action, join or sit with a finger up your voidgate while the storm does it's own thing.

[Hypernaut1]

17 hours ago, Shad0wWatcher said:

I find it amazing how i keep finding myself coming back to this thread, Ash's bladestorm....hm...it's now been a good 2 weeks(2 weeks?...2 weeks) and i gotta say right now...tho it's a handy thing...by that i mean being able to send i clones without having to go there...but i gotta also admit that right now i'm doing even less than before. The big problem every Ash player had with bladestorm (aside from its clunky design), was the interactivity, or rather, the lack there of. But at the very least Ash was killing his targets himself. But now, that itself is optional, but should that really be a thing?

Yeah sure in terms of this game it's handy to use on the fly. But i thought that the point of the 4th abilities was, killing the enemy by utilizing the thing that your current warframe is most known for, in Ash's case(or what it should be) it's killing your enemies in...admittedly...a rather brutal way himself(himself!). And making the killing enemies himself an optional thing is nice and all...but in all seriousness people...who is gonna use that? Why would you? If your Ash is built correctly, enemies die really damn fast.

Hell QuiteShy/Quite Shallow made a point of this showing Ash using his current Clonestorm, and just then sitting down while his clones take care of business, and yeah that seems efficient, but that's not really great design, especially if the first problem of the ability was the lack of an actual participation in his own ability. And how the ability is now really runs that point home. She put it hilariously bold(tho admittedly kinda true) "Ash is now an embodiment of idiot design, his bladestorm requires even less thought than the old one (as she proceeds to go invisible, use bladestorm on some bombards, and then sits down while the clones kill the targets), shuriken is strong because of it's auto aim and guaranteed slash proc." And while i disagree with the bit about shuriken, the part about bladestorm(Clonestorm) is kinda true.

People coming at me saying that by that logic, Assassins creed should then also be a game with bad design cause they use this as well...but that game is designed around assassination, this game is designed around an endless horde mode.

For me, having the clones do the work takes away from the berserker feeling Ash used to have. Oh well. I kind of hate it when DE caves in to the masses on certain things. Yes we can opt in still, but it's clunky and there isn't that much of an advantage to opting in voluntarily.

IMO, the ability was fine. The marking speed was fine. I don't even understand why so many claim to not be able easily mark groups of enemies. It only takes glance. 

These request to make the marking reticule as big as Mesa's is ridiculous. I would be disappointed if DE caved to this, and in turn nerfed the damage down to nothing to accommodate. There's no way DE is going to make it easy to instantly mark 18 enemies for death while STILL not having to participate. 

Players always want things so easy and thoughtless. All Ash complaints boils down to turning him into a easy to go to mass killer that takes little effort.

Edited February 22, 2018 by Hypernaut1

[(PSN)kingbrown2012]

3 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

For me, having the clones do the work takes away from the berserker feeling Ash used to have. Oh well. I kind of hate it when DE caves in to the masses on certain things. Yes we can opt in still, but it's clunky and there isn't that much of an advantage to opting in voluntarily.

IMO, the ability was fine. The marking speed was fine. I don't even understand why so many claim to not be able easily mark groups of enemies. It only takes glance. 

These request to make the marking reticule as big as Mesa's is ridiculous. I would be disappointed if DE caved to this, and in turn nerfed the damage down to nothing to accommodate. There's no way DE is going to make it easy to instantly mark 18 enemies for death while STILL not having to participate. 

Players always want things so easy and thoughtless. All Ash complaints boils down to turning him into a easy to go to mass killer that takes little effort.

Honestly I see why they brought the mark system but I believe it should be one mark only 

[Shad0wWatcher]

7 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

For me, having the clones do the work takes away from the berserker feeling Ash used to have. Oh well. I kind of hate it when DE caves in to the masses on certain things. Yes we can opt in still, but it's clunky and there isn't that much of an advantage to opting in voluntarily.

IMO, the ability was fine. The marking speed was fine. I don't even understand why so many claim to not be able easily mark groups of enemies. It only takes glance. 

These request to make the marking reticule as big as Mesa's is ridiculous. I would be disappointed if DE caved to this, and in turn nerfed the damage down to nothing to accommodate. There's no way DE is going to make it easy to instantly mark 18 enemies for death while STILL not having to participate. 

Players always want things so easy and thoughtless. All Ash complaints boils down to turning him into a easy to go to mass killer that takes little effort.

See i have no problem with the marking system, it's just the current clonestorm is a little...well a bit too idiot proof. Press the button, stare at your enemy, press button again, sit down, watch the action happen from a distance. It's just less interactive and more a "sped up" version of pre-re-revisited bladestorm. Cause the thing that slowed it down was the animation, now that that's not needed anymore, it's faster and i love that, there's no need for stabbing enemies to be so extravagant. So it's a big step in the right direction. And tbh, i'm happy with the change.

And it answered a question i had before this entire rework was a thing. The moment Scott mentioned this on a devstream, i got curious to how it would look, now i do. So i'm kinda satisfied by that one. He said it would be broken OP, curious to what made him change his mind. Also i'm starting to think that the best place to post rework ideas is Reddit instead of here cause instead of going on their own forums, they turned to Reddit(which kinda baffles me but i won't get into that). 

Edited February 22, 2018 by Shad0wWatcher

[StonedMakak]

1 hour ago, Shad0wWatcher said:

See i have no problem with the marking system, it's just the current clonestorm is a little...well a bit too idiot proof.

I find this to be a bizarre argument... isn't all of Warframe idiot proof?

Anyway, I get where you're coming from, but the current situation of BS is just the result of DE cornering themselves with it's design. I like the change, because I am of the opinion that anything that over-relays on cutscene in a video game is anathema to the core principles of gaming (well, that sounded pretentious). As for the skill itself, yeah, it's a dumb nuke. Thing is, they now tried everything, except scrapping it completely or fixing their energy economy (which is not going to happen).    

[Shad0wWatcher]

1 minute ago, tisdfogg said:

I find this to be a bizarre argument... isn't all of Warframe idiot proof?

Well you're not wrong xD, it's that Ash's clonestorm takes it to another level.

2 minutes ago, tisdfogg said:

Anyway, I get where you're coming from, but the current situation of BS is just the result of DE cornering themselves with it's design. I like the change, because I am of the opinion that anything that over-relays on cutscene in a video game is anathema to the core principles of gaming (well, that sounded pretentious). As for the skill itself, yeah, it's a dumb nuke. Thing is, they now tried everything, except scrapping it completely or fixing their energy economy (which is not going to happen).

Dude...i felt dumb there for a second cause i had no idea what you meant for a moment xD. But yeah that's what i mean. I don't play a game to watch stuff happen, i play games to play. But hey, i won't knock DE for trying, they did their best to fix what is there without changing it entirely. They changed how it worked instead of what actually happens, which i can give credit for and it's appreciated cause it shows that they do indeed care for not only the warframe itself, but the identity the frame has. They didn't want to turn Ash into a Ryu Hayabusa rip-off, even tho his deluxe skin clearly took inspiration from him and despite what some players(me included) might cosplay as. Which is why i think that they haven't gone with the stance ability, they might just be afraid of what it might turn into. 

[Nazrethim]

hace 10 horas, Hypernaut1 dijo:

 All Ash complaints boils down to turning him into a easy to go to mass killer that takes little effort.

Bold statement you made right there.

 

hace 3 horas, Shad0wWatcher dijo:

See i have no problem with the marking system, it's just the current clonestorm is a little...well a bit too idiot proof. Press the button, stare at your enemy, press button again, sit down, watch the action happen from a distance. It's just less interactive and more a "sped up" version of pre-re-revisited bladestorm. Cause the thing that slowed it down was the animation, now that that's not needed anymore, it's faster and i love that, there's no need for stabbing enemies to be so extravagant. So it's a big step in the right direction. And tbh, i'm happy with the change.

It isn't faster actually. You just are no longer forced to participate of the slow execution, so you go join your team to wipe the enemies. Whenever I use it on a large group I kill roughly 70% of the enemies well before the clones reach them.

hace 3 horas, Shad0wWatcher dijo:

And it answered a question i had before this entire rework was a thing. The moment Scott mentioned this on a devstream, i got curious to how it would look, now i do. So i'm kinda satisfied by that one. He said it would be broken OP, curious to what made him change his mind. Also i'm starting to think that the best place to post rework ideas is Reddit instead of here cause instead of going on their own forums, they turned to Reddit(which kinda baffles me but i won't get into that). 

I got your answer:

lots of complaints and demands for an actual rework and unwillingness to do so.

[Shad0wWatcher]

8 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

It isn't faster actually. You just are no longer forced to participate of the slow execution, so you go join your team to wipe the enemies. Whenever I use it on a large group I kill roughly 70% of the enemies well before the clones reach them.

So basically it's just as if someone else in your team is using Clonestorm. Makes sense i guess.

8 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

I got your answer:

lots of complaints and demands for an actual rework and unwillingness to do so.

You think any more of that will do it again? xD

[Hypernaut1]

This my feedback, copied from another thread. I think bladestorm is fine. I dont know why so many players claim to have issues with targeting or think they NEED a bigger targeting reticule. it would just make the ability overpowered for the damage it does. There is no constant wiggling to mark enemies, i simply glance at them, energy economy is fine, and the damage is lethal to these sortie enemies. In my gameplay, i really dont see how anyone can say Ash is weak or slow. My teammates were not close to killing everything before i could target. I was able to target multiple enemies effortlessly. If your enot cruising to top kills with Ash, you're not playing him right.It has nothing to do with marking

My main issue with current changes is that 

1. it makes shuriken near pointless. clones are cheaper, more accurate and do more damage. I would suggest shuriken at least throw a 3x mark clone to any marked target, and have seeking shuriken still apply if slotted. This way i can toss out clones, while still marking and save my BS activation.

2. Opt-ing in to bladestorm is clunky and can be whiffed, it should be hold 4 to opt in. On on hand, i like the increase in DPS, on the other hand, it makes BS feel more like a passive move. I wish there was a bit more incentive than the invulnerability. While momentary invulnerability sounds GREAT, i find that its really situational where i really need to consider opting in over being able to attack the enemy while clones put in work. I would suggest that opting in auto-3x marks all targets for free or something similar. It should be a powerboost to BS. The least DE can do is make holding 4 a way to opt in. This would make it a much smoother mechanic.

9 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

i literally just recorded this in todays MD sortie. You can watch the whole thing, but here are some highlights-

00:30 - i mark a group for dead. No spazzing. all dead before anyone can kill them. certainly dead before my weapons could

00:35- another group of sortie enemies easily marked for dead, no spazzing, they simply crossed my reticule.

00:55- yet another group. also note,, im constantly using BS and have no energy issues. no arcane or zenurik. just hunter adrenaline, fleeting and primed flow

2:05- marks approaching group of enemies, dead before teamates can deal with them. This is a PUG though, but still.

3:40- a known hectic defense spot and im not spazzing to kill. it comes smoothly. You get the idea. 

I truly see no issue with marking as it. Its seamless for the most part and works on top of you ADS. I can now kill on the move too. I end the mission with far more kills. I dont see how BS is slow at all. The new change has doubled  his damage output and almost put him on old bladestorm levels of mass murder.

(edit) I kind of wish the quality was better, but i literally just figured out how to upload footage.

Edited February 23, 2018 by Hypernaut1