HEMA Final Word - No Mutagen Drop or Cost change

[-Kryptyk-]

53 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

 

I'm guessing you just got here cuz you were farming samples the past 2 months.

...That's a joke.

That post is 2 months old man. Doesn't really apply to their excuse anymore.

Hard to believe this thread has been on the front page for 2 months now and that there was one before it which was even larger in size.

I honestly just saw this as the most recent replied to topic on the front page of the forums and didn't realize it was as long and old as it is XD

[(PSN)Silverback73]

5 hours ago, ChuckMaverick said:

I'm not sure where you got that from, I'm certainly not calling you an idiot.

I'm just saying that DE shouldn't base their game balance decisions on extremes of player behaviour, but on the 'average' player.

They will base it on new players, players who pay when presented with behavior modifications, and players who stay for the long term and invest time and money.

The term "average player" really has no context.

[(PSN)Onder6099]

2 hours ago, SkadiNyx said:

Because : 

- Maybe you don't want 14 randoms in your Clan, especially if your Clan members are real friends. 
- There's already a lot of Clans in WF, recruiting 14 more players only to get a weapon is difficult AND hypocritical. 

 

2 hours ago, ChuckMaverick said:

And then you meet someone else you'd like to invite into your clan, but you either have to find another 69 players to invite or kick one of your 30 active clan members.

Not a great model for clans.

It didn't matter when clan costs were trivial, but if DE intend to raise them to a meaningful level then clan tiers and scaling needs an overhaul.

How about 12?

I stated 14 and u both automatically added that as mandatory. We can endlessly throwing opposite arguments to each other but it leads to nowhere.

Because @Xzornpost remind me that is around 60 days since Hema release which is 10 MS/1 player/day, I hope that most of Clans already have their Hema, it's also means they we are out of Topic with Clans, so I would like to thank you all, especially  @ChuckMaverickfor more or less constructive dialogue and @Flirk2to show me the 2 years difference between players.

Thank u, good night, I love u all.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

https://mobile.twitter.com/sj_sinclair/status/836690125794979841?p=v

Obviously Steve

Edited March 2, 2017 by (XB1)FCastle74

[Volinus7]

When you give hypocrisy to people you get sarcasm in return. 

[Ditto132]

12 hours ago, (PS4)Onder6099 said:

How about 12?

I stated 14 and u both automatically added that as mandatory. We can endlessly throwing opposite arguments to each other but it leads to nowhere.

Because @Xzornpost remind me that is around 60 days since Hema release which is 10 MS/1 player/day, I hope that most of Clans already have their Hema, it's also means they we are out of Topic with Clans, so I would like to thank you all, especially  @ChuckMaverickfor more or less constructive dialogue and @Flirk2to show me the 2 years difference between players.

Thank u, good night, I love u all.

Both of them are using minimum and maximum values in conjunction with IVT (Intermediate Value Theorem), and thus can cover any values within that given range (including your value 12). Any other values other than the maximum value for a particular clan tier would be considered sub-optimal, and still be subjected to arguments that claim that it is not optimal.
E.g. He can recruit 12 more members, leaving 2 empty slots for future invites, but resulting the clan to be sub-optimal, each players having to contribute more than 500 Mutagen Samples due to non full clan.
Then so, you or some other people would then argue that why not invite 2 more members to make the clan full, so it will be optimal.

Games are not meant for playing optimally at all time, min-maxing all the time. It is not very fun for most players and can be very energy-sapping.
Imagine gameplay being balanced and based around optimal play such that challenges can only be overcome by using very specific method.
E.g. A high speed enemy that can only be killed that require precise headshot and only reveal its head for a limited duration.
It is do-able but require fast reaction time with precise aiming and likely to limit weapons with high damage output.

These are the reasons why player's playstyle is meta, being indirectly forced to min-maxing due to punishing gameplay.
DE shouldn't blamed players for playing too meta, keep camping on the beam in Akkad, and removing the beam because it is unhealthy.
If DE deem meta-squad, farming, camping on the beam so on to be unhealthy, change the gameplay, not remove the beam. It doesn't fix the issue at all.

Sure, players could get 600 Mutagen Samples in 60 days given your 10 MS/ 1 player/day.
Solo clan could get ~5000 in ~498days (60x~8.3), doesn't seem much to get the research done in 1+ years, right?
Have you considered other factors such as new items that also require farming that are being released during that 498 days? And that those new items could possibly require more resources compared to Hema due to stockpiles, resulting in longer grind than it was previously?
You have to see from different perspectives too.

It is very unlikely that more than 50% of all clans had their Hema researched, to be honest.

From what I seen so far, @ChuckMaverick and @Flirk2 have been constructive with their posts, backed up with logical explanation, data such as stats, figures and links as proofs.
What most players here are requesting DE to fix the issue, DE suggestions and responses such as go farm with meta squad, it's raining Mutagen Samples doesn't do any good and act only as methods to circumvent the issue instead of fixing it. Just like introducing band-aid mods and Rivens that tries to fix certain weapons, but doesn't really fix the issue and in fact made the issue even more prominent.
 

Finally, something to let people ponder about and ask yourself:
At what point (resources, time, effort, values) would you start finding it unreasonable to farm/grind/play? Think about it.

[Djego27]

As somebody that farmed the Archwing researches and the 100 Tellurium in a Storm clan for the Knux solo(because nobody else liked archwing) I think it is to much. I am currently the only player logging in. 2.5k of the 2.6k(still misses 47.4k) of the mutagen mass samples are from my solo farming ODS for focus and the nova part back in the day or ODD for the Ember BPs.

While it is good if you have everybody in the clan active, I do not think this is the case for most clans, even if most are active(like it was for us last year) nobody beside me did like archwing(even I do not like it since the changes last year, since the changed flight model gives me a headache on longer session) and I did that farming alone. I did not enjoy all this hours in infested survival with my necros to get the 100 Tellurium on my own and I do not wish anybody else should have suffered thrught this just because I did. I actually left the game because the grind simply became unbearable for me halve a year ago just to see the Hema research cost in the lab when I came back did give me the impression it got considerable worse since then.

Edited March 2, 2017 by Djego27

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

Oh more grind, and yet another weapon locked behind a grind wall. 

 

[Liminal]

29 minutes ago, (Xbox One)FCastle74 said:

Oh more grind, and yet another weapon locked behind a grind wall. 

Feedback seems to be pretty negative on the official thread. tbh if this is a taste of things to come I'm seriously considering dropping WF for good.

[_Vortus_]

As it seems attitudes in the clan I am in have deteriorated towards a hopeless attitude towards the Hema.    I came up with this idea, but, it was moved to Dojo feedback, rightly so, but that is where threads go to die.   So, what about research on a sort of graduated curve.    Decreased cost for those that need it, which will in turn have increased time for that research to build.  While increased resources paid, decreases the time.   Allowing everyone to get what they want.   Small tight knit clans can stay together.    Active hard working clans have something to work for.    In the end, everyone should be content.   Hope players will consider it.

This isn't just about Hema, but a basic change to clan research for the entire game.

Edited March 3, 2017 by _Vortus_

[Artekkor]

Watching record of devstream #89.

Steve mentioned increasing drop rates of "a certain resourse that drops in orokin direlict".

So, yeah. DE are still listening and thinking how they can improve the thing, without breaking their promise to those who already finished.

[Mattoropael]

14 minutes ago, Artek94 said:

Watching record of devstream #89.

Steve mentioned increasing drop rates of "a certain resourse that drops in orokin direlict".

So, yeah. DE are still listening and thinking how they can improve the thing, without breaking their promise to those who already finished.

This is just dangling carrots at this point, in the same sense that Umbra Excal will be released. Better than a flat "no, we won't do it", but not really all that better.

Edited March 4, 2017 by Mattoropael

[John89brensen]

27 minutes ago, Mattoropael said:

This is just dangling carrots at this point, in the same sense that Umbra Excal will be released. Better than a flat "no, we won't do it", but not really all that better.

Well they gave us a flat "no, we wont do it" with their "ms drops are fine, go to derelict, its raining there".

In any case i just find it ironic that they lowered clan participation tier thresholds for The Pacifism Defect, guess they dont mind dishonoring those people...

[Mattoropael]

Just now, John89brensen said:

Well they gave us a flat "no, we wont do it" with their "ms drops are fine, go to derelict, its raining there".

In any case i just find it ironic that they lowered clan participation tier thresholds for The Pacifism Defect, guess they dont mind dishonoring those people...

I'm willing to bet their answer to that will be "People don't already have the Ignis Wraith, so it's totally fine to change it", nevermind the effort people have sunk in to meet those initial goals.

[DrFail]

6 hours ago, Mattoropael said:

I'm willing to bet their answer to that will be "People don't already have the Ignis Wraith, so it's totally fine to change it", nevermind the effort people have sunk in to meet those initial goals.

I don't support the decision behind the Hema cost staying or the reasoning behind it, but there is still a difference between the ignis and hema.

 

The Ignis had about one days worth of effort that was even possible to put into it before they announced they would be doing any tweaking. This effort required nothing from player inventories, and platinum was not a factor in the equation. Points put towards the lowest tier still count for the other additional rewards.

The Hema had one to two weeks of effort put into it because the staff team left for the holidays. It drained resources from many players as was its intent, and in that large of a time span a horde of users paid for it using real life money. Even if refunded, the disappearing resources would probably mean nothing for a long time, as at best they would have gotten shoved into the clan vault and then never touched again as DE wouldn't want people to be able to just slowly drain their clan hemastache to invalidate any future infested weapon research.

 

One of these is much thinner ice than the other.

Edited March 4, 2017 by DrFail

[John89brensen]

11 hours ago, DrFail said:

snip

Yeah im not making an honest comparison, it is clear that Hema research and Ignis Wraith are different situations. But it shows that DE has changed requirements, and Ignis is just the latest example, they have done it in the past too.

[Artekkor]

I also want to point out that i'm very pleased by the fact that the event missions have mutagen in the drop tables. From what i've seen the game counts those missions are derelict (since its derelict that i stare at after i go back to the navigation console after the mission). Even though we are obviously not there but on some generic grineer ship.

Makes me think that DE did it inteintionally. Which i, personally, appreciate.

So i'm kinda doing a multi-tasking job: finishing the event AND making the progress on the Hema. Not a lot, but some.
And so do my clanmates. Who knows - maybe we will have the Hema after this event. Or at the very least make some major progress.

[k05h]

9 hours ago, Artek94 said:

I also want to point out that i'm very pleased by the fact that the event missions have mutagen in the drop tables.

You are right. This should be mentioned. While I still annoyed about the hema costs you have to give them credits for putting derelict drop tables to the new game mode. 

While grinding my way through the current event this weekend I gathered a nice amout of mutagen samples. Depending on team composition I got 1 sample for every 2 survivors rescued (not literatlly for the rescues but from enemies killed along you way). And this is how we should get ressources: by just playing the game and not farming one map over and over again. 

Edited March 6, 2017 by k05h

[Artekkor]

Just now, k05h said:

While grinding my way through the current event this weekend I gathered a nice amout of mutagen samples. Depending on team composition I got 1 sample for every 2 survivors rescued (not literatlly for the rescues but from enemies killed along you way). And this is how we should get ressources: by just playing the game and not farming one map over and over again. 

Exactly. We shouldn' be interested and forced into grinding the resource - we should be interested in playing the mission where the resource drops.

[Loswaith]

We did get mutagen as we played, then DE gave us a huge mutagen cost because of it (so the research wouldnt be fully contributed to immediately).

The event is just a different grind, abet with a time limit.

Edited March 6, 2017 by Loswaith

[ChuckMaverick]

3 hours ago, k05h said:

You are right. This should be mentioned. While I still annoyed about the hema costs you have to give them credits for putting derelict drop tables to the new game mode.

It is a smart way for DE to give players alternative ways to acquire mutagen samples in the short term.

However, it's only a band-aid for the duration of the event. Once the event is over we're back to exactly the same position we were before, unless this new game mode is introduced permanently and with rewards that make running it actually worthwhile, and mutagen samples continue to drop there.

[dashashou]

5 hours ago, ChuckMaverick said:

It is a smart way for DE to give players alternative ways to acquire mutagen samples in the short term.

However, it's only a band-aid for the duration of the event. Once the event is over we're back to exactly the same position we were before, unless this new game mode is introduced permanently and with rewards that make running it actually worthwhile, and mutagen samples continue to drop there.

the increase grind atm is the main reason that WF is more popular in Singapore than the US atm with China one point behind in google trends  and sadly when china eclipses US numbers that's usually the KOD ,  even with banshee prime  and this grind tastic baby sitting / baby escort event the  GT numbers are still down .  

[ChuckMaverick]

7 minutes ago, Ravel7 said:

the increase grind atm is the main reason that WF is more popular in Singapore than the US atm with China one point behind in google trends  and sadly when china eclipses US numbers that's usually the KOD ,  even with banshee prime  and this grind tastic baby sitting / baby escort event the  GT numbers are still down .  

Google Trends is not a measure of absolute 'popularity', you need to be sure you understand what those numbers represent if you're attempting to use them comparatively.

Though it's worth noting that the GT chart for the US shows more of an upwards trend than the chart for Singapore.

[dashashou]

35 minutes ago, ChuckMaverick said:

Google Trends is not a measure of absolute 'popularity', you need to be sure you understand what those numbers represent if you're attempting to use them comparatively.

Though it's worth noting that the GT chart for the US shows more of an upwards trend than the chart for Singapore.

personal attacks aside  steam numbers  last 30 days  = +816.6 = + 2.88%  peak  = 47,880 vs February 28,398.3 , -3,336.7  with a -10.51% loss 45,309 peak 

that's a small gain for Banshee prime and an Event!! if u look at all the other prime releases  it's the lowest player gain per prime yet . 

Edited March 6, 2017 by Ravel7

[ChuckMaverick]

1 minute ago, Ravel7 said:

personal attacks aside

Eh? What personal attack?