TennoGen Round 7

[OniDax]

14 minutes ago, ShinAmeD said:

Thanks for the support guys. But i have to be real looking back at some of my work i now see the many mistakes i've made and totally understand why i didnt get accepted. After Nekros Hades i stopped using retextures because many of you said that that was bad. Ash tskuyomi on the other hand didnt have any retextures on him, but he wasnt that great though. I am going through the whole process now without any shortcuts. Faven helped me out a lot on what i am supposed to do, and with some of my personal problems. For this round i will be redoing the Altair syandana from scratch and making another Volt or Valkyr skin (with no retextures) :D

 

 

 

Wish you luck! I'm really interested in your cape. Only thing that bothered me about it were the top and the bottom of it, with those patterns on it. But I'm looking forward to what you come up with because I really want a normal cape syandana.

Edited January 24, 2017 by AntoineFlemming

[Shadow8600]

4 hours ago, AntoineFlemming said:

 a normal cape syandana.

hear! hear! Tired of the flimsy stuff. A nice cloak/cape would be awesome.

[Yatus]

8 hours ago, AntoineFlemming said:

Wish you luck! I'm really interested in your cape. Only thing that bothered me about it were the top and the bottom of it, with those patterns on it. But I'm looking forward to what you come up with because I really want a normal cape syandana.

Yeah DE told me they didnt like the scarab and the sun patterns on the bottom, it made it look less warframish so i remoed them and added something else. I will post a work in progress soon and thanks man, i'm glad you like it. :D

[NovaXcaliber]

How would one design skins/helmets/syandanas & enter Tennogen?

[[DE]Taylor]

3 minutes ago, NovaXcaliber said:

How would one design skins/helmets/syandanas & enter Tennogen?

This thread here has all the basic information you need to get started:

We do have a guide here that goes more in-depth about style guides, limitations, techniques and more: https://warframe.com/steamworkshop/help/

Here is a YouTube video on how what the TennoGen Tool looks like and how to navigate it:

Spoiler

 

This is all very basic stuff, but it's important to get a grasp on these before you start delving into the more sophisticated, technical side of this. :) 

[212.nVbs]

Is there any chance that the new skins will come out as the same time as the patch that takes off the prime effects? I really want that loki skin.

[SerYreS]

On 1/24/2017 at 0:40 AM, MaaYuu said:

No, it can't be stressed enough, his work keeps getting rejected because he just uses existing Textures from other warframes and moves them around resulting in an unfinished look that fails to evoke the warframe style and incorrect shading.  Also he sometimes uses blatant references from other games like the chest tattoos on his Excalibur skin.

I see that he's making an effort to go through the process properly recently though. He just might get in someday.

That response gave me cancer. There are so many things that dont look warframeish or just look like copys from other skins/helmet or things in the game. And so much stuff even doesnt meet criteria that they stated here. If his stuff really was badly done before, why did so many people like it? The whole Proccess of them choosing which tennogen items get accepted is bullS#&$.

[Cat__Nap]

8 minutes ago, SerYreS said:

That response gave me cancer. There are so many things that dont look warframeish or just look like copys from other skins/helmet or things in the game. And so much stuff even doesnt meet criteria that they stated here. If his stuff really was badly done before, why did so many people like it? The whole Proccess of them choosing which tennogen items get accepted is bullS#&$.

Most Tennogen items worth having get accepted. The ones that don't, they have their reasons for.

The items you're salty about have always looked completely unfinished so it's not surprising they're being skipped every round. Ask the creator to actually add detail in a single one of them, and maybe it'll get accepted. Don't blame DE for not wanting to finish his work for him when everyone else who gets accepted submits finished skins.

Also, the guy you quoted said nothing about the skins looking warframe-ish enough or not warframe-ish enough. That was DE that said that - and while I do agree that they've accepted a lot of skins that DO directly go against what they're now saying is a rule, it still has nothing to do with someone not finishing their skin and expecting it to be picked up.

[Extroah]

As much as i like DE, but saying that they don't want humanoid Features on a Skin and then accept a Skin that has a crosshair/Visor that, well, isn't of any use without Eyes (humanoid feature) is kinda pointless.

Anyways, while i don't personally like any of the new stuff i'm glad that we at least have more options yet again. Fashionframe is endgame afterall.

[_malaya_]

7 minutes ago, SerYreS said:

If his stuff really was badly done before, why did so many people like it?

Simple. It's because most people aren't able to distinguish between an item that looks good and within spec and one that just looks good. My main point is that the skins don't satisfy the technical requirement more than the aesthetic.

The static images used to display his work don't help either and aren't really a good point of reference for how well it'll work realtime. Once the textures are compressed down to 1024x1024 and are being lit in an actual game environment, where the object will be affected by moving light sources; if the case was that he edited the normal maps by rotating, scaling and erasing parts of it and overlaying to combine them, then the issues like incorrect lighting, warped detail, uneven texture resolution and visible seams will be more apparent.

And while I do agree that the Mesa Graxx and Mesa Deadeye does have the issue with its humanoid aesthetic and DE does have some issues practicing what they preach; the fact that they look damn good AND are technically sound, to me at least is a fair tradeoff. Mesa is a Warframe based around guns, a motif relating to sight and aiming would be somewhat appropriate. If anyone deserves the exception to the rule it would have to be her.

 

[fredaven]

On 1/20/2017 at 8:50 PM, [DE]Taylor said:

To everyone else who submitted their creations, thank you for your hard work! We're excited to what you'll all come up with for Round 8 (deadline TBA). If you want a few tips on what to avoid to ensure you don't need to make any last-minute revisions, here's a list:

• Avoid perfect shapes - especially circles.
• Make sure all surfaces, including smooth ones, still have somewhat of a grungy texture. Even smooth bone has flaws so keep that in mind when creating that organic aesthetic!
• Be sure to keep to one Faction (unless you are trying to emulate Infested taking over a Grineer/Corpus/etc. piece)
• Keep clipping and weapon-sights in mind when designing skins or Syandana. Large pieces behind the head can interrupt the player's aim and overall in-game experience.
• Please do not add obvious facial features to Warframes. That means anything that would resemble eyes (including eye-coverings) or mouths will not be accepted. Warframes are not humans and thus do not have eyes. Alad V knows this, you should too.

I feel everyone is taking this as face value, which t shouldnt be. Taylor listed some things she have picked up in terms of feedback. But it's important that you see it in the context of the art piece.

"Perfect circles". This would be inappropiate for someting thats infested theme, but not necesarily for the other factions.

"Grungy" surfaces. This might not be appropiate for high gloss metal in small areas, for big armored pieces sure. You need to put it in context

"Facial features". 

Here people are picking up on the eyes. Now eyes with a humanoid mouth/nose is bad. 2 eyes though?

On the Mesa graxx the feedback was that the goggles (ie covering both eyes in a single symmetrical piece) made it to human, after breaking it up to be a single eye piece with an asymmetrical armored core on the other side this was accepted.


DE are working on a more comprehensive guide so I suggest waiting for that.

[Neptlude]

On 1/22/2017 at 5:42 AM, Cat__Nap said:

I'm going to be perfectly blunt here. Yatus doesn't put the detail into his work that other Tennogen creators (who've been accepted) have. I'm not saying every single accepted item has been top-notch, because some definitely weren't, but I can say personally I would never buy any of those skins as they are currently, because they look half-unfinished. The only exception to this is the Gazal-counterpart syndana.

It would pretty much be a major kick in the face to anyone who puts time into a single skin for the N X/Y/Z/whatever skins to be accepted. The textures are unfinished, so DE would literally have to finish the guy's own work for him, whereas most other Tennogen creators submit fully fleshed-out pieces. Compare any of the accepted pieces by Hitsu San, Atarrwen, or Volkovyi to a single one of Yatus', and the difference in detail is overwhelmingly noticeable. Faven comes out with pieces often, but still manages to put a lot of detail into them - all of his Graxx pieces have full textures and look incredible.

If Yatus actually went back and added detail into the textures/shapes of some of his previous submissions, maybe he'd have something. The base concepts for a few of them are actually quite nice, they just look horribly undetailed. The Vagabond skin is by far the best one he's done, but it's still lacking texture detail. I'm sure if he focused on it and touched it up, it would get picked up in the next round.

I actually like the simplistic design, I dont want my skin to be overly detailed. 

[[DE]Taylor]

On 26/01/2017 at 7:51 AM, Extroah said:

As much as i like DE, but saying that they don't want humanoid Features on a Skin and then accept a Skin that has a crosshair/Visor that, well, isn't of any use without Eyes (humanoid feature) is kinda pointless.

Anyways, while i don't personally like any of the new stuff i'm glad that we at least have more options yet again. Fashionframe is endgame afterall.

Not all facial features are limited to humans - other things have eyes, including robots or aliens. You can have "scopes" or other details that imply sight or vision, but we ask that they do not be placed in pairs of two across the eye line of the face. Ivara has hers smack dab in the middle of her face. A blindfold falls under this category as well because it implies eyes underneath it.

The Mesa Graxx in particular is fine now because a) there is only one "eye" and b) this detail is heavily influenced by the Grineer aesthetic, so it makes sense in the universe for her to look the way she does.

Our default as humans is to create something we recognize, like a face - please try to avoid doing this. There is a big difference between this and this in terms of aesthetics, especially in terms of implying sight, even though they share similar shapes and forms. Hopefully this cleared up some confusion on the matter.

[(PSN)Mofojokers]

3 minutes ago, [DE]Taylor said:

Snip

You get an up vote for using C-3PO in your example.😆

[[DE]Taylor]

21 hours ago, fredaven said:

"Perfect circles". This would be inappropiate for someting thats infested theme, but not necesarily for the other factions.

For this point in particular, it's important to think of how these circles are made within your design. Is it painted on detailling? Is it an emissive port? Or is it a detail that the flesh has grown into? Flesh doesn't grow in perfect shapes, so it can look wrong in the context of the Warframe universe if that's what you decide to include in your skin.

In terms of Syandanas, circles are more acceptable, but very few (if any) of our in-house Syandanas use circles. There is a reason for this - they do not have a large place within the Warframe aesthetic. Of course you can push that trope and add your own twist, but it should always be on your mind when designing for this game.

[Amazerath]

2 hours ago, [DE]Taylor said:

Not all facial features are limited to humans - other things have eyes, including robots or aliens. You can have "scopes" or other details that imply sight or vision, but we ask that they do not be placed in pairs of two across the eye line of the face. Ivara has hers smack dab in the middle of her face. A blindfold falls under this category as well because it implies eyes underneath it.

The Mesa Graxx in particular is fine now because a) there is only one "eye" and b) this detail is heavily influenced by the Grineer aesthetic, so it makes sense in the universe for her to look the way she does.

Our default as humans is to create something we recognize, like a face - please try to avoid doing this. There is a big difference between this and this in terms of aesthetics, especially in terms of implying sight, even though they share similar shapes and forms. Hopefully this cleared up some confusion on the matter.

Taylor, with respect I think you guys need to put some more thought into this one.

Mesa has a blindfold on her helmet, which is there because Minky wanted to give her something of a cocky 'personality'. Valkyr has an alternate helmet that also has a blindfold, which I imagine is there to remind players that she was experimented on. And Valkyr's Gersemi skin takes it one step further by having a ball gag.

So to me it doesn't seem like the art team is against facial features. But maybe they don't want facial features that are blatant like eyes, nose, lips. Or maybe they just don't want facial features that don't have a theme behind them or a reason to be there.

I think what you said about Mesa Graxx being fine because she has a theme (Grineer) makes a lot of sense. Maybe that's the direction you guys should be going towards. Just please don't say it's fine because there's only one "eye"! =P

[Rekkou]

I think the main difference is if the "eyes" serves only as sensory feature or it's working to create a human face

After taking a second look, the problem with old baihu, isn't just the blind fold, the mouth piece area highly imply nose and mouth, working together with the blindfold, the helmet highly resembles human

http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/266100190183268716/EC18B5D9738B50C8DEAC15E5FF7D1E3ABA73FD8A/?interpolation=lanczos-none&output-format=jpeg&output-quality=95&fit=inside|637:358&composite-to%3D*%2C*|637%3A358&background-color=black

Original Anthro has nothing that looks like eyes but the lips becomes a dead giveaway that it looks humanoid

http://i.imgur.com/jKqBDlg.jpg

Mesa, Graxxs, Mirage, and plenty of other warframe have "eyes" but it merely implies "it can see you" instead of outright looking like human.

So the real keyword people should focus on is "facial" not "eyes"

[Clan_Tax1776]

On Saturday, January 21, 2017 at 1:15 PM, Shadow8600 said:

Hasn't been added to the game yet. Only announced as incoming whenever they do add more Tennogen content.

I understand that but im saying none of the gear that's already there I cant see, like the helmets for Ash and Banshee or the graxx skins and syandanna

[Shadow8600]

2 hours ago, Kuramasenju1776 said:

I understand that but im saying none of the gear that's already there I cant see, like the helmets for Ash and Banshee or the graxx skins and syandanna

Ah, I assume the obvious answers such as making sure you're running through Steam, and have your account linked to your Steam has all been checked, yeah? I think I've heard of this happening before, but forgot what the fix was. Apologies, couldn't find anything more in depth than this, where he claimed it was fixed when he reinstalled the game.

 

[Volkovyi]

On 1/28/2017 at 0:17 AM, Amazerath said:

Taylor, with respect I think you guys need to put some more thought into this one.

Mesa has a blindfold on her helmet, which is there because Minky wanted to give her something of a cocky 'personality'. Valkyr has an alternate helmet that also has a blindfold, which I imagine is there to remind players that she was experimented on. And Valkyr's Gersemi skin takes it one step further by having a ball gag.

So to me it doesn't seem like the art team is against facial features. But maybe they don't want facial features that are blatant like eyes, nose, lips. Or maybe they just don't want facial features that don't have a theme behind them or a reason to be there.

I think what you said about Mesa Graxx being fine because she has a theme (Grineer) makes a lot of sense. Maybe that's the direction you guys should be going towards. Just please don't say it's fine because there's only one "eye"! =P

 

If I may add my own interpretation here; in short what Warframe is looking for is non-perfect and non-obvious forms that we are used to in real world anatomy. As creators participating in TennoGen, we are all designers, designing towards a specific aesthetic which is this Warframe universe. Things are not so easily defined in black and white, there may be suggestions of facial features and eyes, but that is okay because they are designed and warped into a new visual. Still recognizable, but not a perfect copy. All Warframes have human forms, bipedal and look almost like suits, but each one is a few degrees away from a perfect human. Atlas has impossibly large shoulders and neckline, Inaros has warped hips, they may be humanoid but they are not copies of real world anatomy.

Warframe and DE is going to be looking for your artistic intervention in your designs. Don't let any part be left as a perfect circle, or perfect copy of facial anatomy. That is the difference between Mesa's blindfolds and Ivara's eye, and well, this...

Spoiler

[Amazerath]

2 hours ago, Volkovyi said:

If I may add my own interpretation here; in short what Warframe is looking for is non-perfect and non-obvious forms that we are used to in real world anatomy. [...]

You basically said what I said using different words.

The main goal of my post was to point out a contradiction and ask for better guidelines for content creators. The contradiction is DE saying eye-coverings and facial features are not acceptable when they have already designed a number of warframe helmets that either have eye-coverings or have some other item that implies facial features.

After pointing out that contradiction, I suggested that the actual problem might not be the presence of eye-coverings or even facial features on a skin. The actual problem might just be the absence of a theme (or aesthetic) that justifies those things being there. And I also said that blatant facial features such as eyes, nose or lips are probably not desired since the art team has always avoided them.

Also, keep in mind we're discussing guidelines here. Guidelines that are open to interpretation are not exactly helpful.

 

[[DE]Taylor]

23 hours ago, Amazerath said:

The main goal of my post was to point out a contradiction and ask for better guidelines for content creators. The contradiction is DE saying eye-coverings and facial features are not acceptable when they have already designed a number of warframe helmets that either have eye-coverings or have some other item that implies facial features.

The "please avoid facial features" point is a guideline, like all others. There will be exceptions and nuances, to do with the faction you have chosen and how obvious the features seem. What we do in-house does not matter here - our artists understand our aesthetic and designs are passed around the team to ensure that it meets our style guide. You guys do not have that privilege, unfortunately, which is why this rule exists. It's just something to keep in mind when designing your piece.  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

On 27/01/2017 at 6:17 PM, Amazerath said:

Mesa has a blindfold on her helmet, which is there because Minky wanted to give her something of a cocky 'personality'. Valkyr has an alternate helmet that also has a blindfold, which I imagine is there to remind players that she was experimented on. And Valkyr's Gersemi skin takes it one step further by having a ball gag.

Again - eye coverings are just an example that was used to illustrate the "please no faces" rule as there have been some recent cases that were changed for violating it. Mesa has a bandana covering her entire head (not just her eye line), and Valkyr's Kara Alt Helm has a VR Helmet large piece of tech covering 2/3rd of her face. There is a big difference between that and the original design of the Bai Hu helmet, for example. Again, they are nuanced, but if you want a better understanding of this rule, I suggest you compare the differences between the original Bai Hu and Mesa Graxx to the accepted versions, and similar designs in-game for an idea of where the line is drawn. 

Spoiler

I'll always be here to offer feedback on WIP pieces or pass on questions to the team if you want to make sure you're on the right track. 

Edited January 30, 2017 by [DE]Taylor
removed random accidental image

[HitsuSan]

...just to testify how much flexibility there is, can i also add that DE allowed me to keep the cat nose on Bai Hu which was the part that i really wanted to get away with? ^^ 

I think the guidelines are very clear already and it's up to the designers (us) to present an exceptionally good ideas if we want some of those rules to be stretched in our favor about a particular thing, which i don't think it's very different to what DE's artists have to do to in order to bend the general art direction.

I can even tell you that i already knew in the concept phase that the Bai Hu bandana was kinda weak and potentially out of the design lines, i thought i could find a better solution while doing it but i didn't had the time to rework it and no particularly better idea at the time so i've kept it anyway... the first rejection wasn't a surprise at all ^^

 

That being said if you find a guideline somewhat confusing the best course of action is to limit yourself to what you've been told to do and then with little steps test what the boundaries are, sometimes the art direction is so broad that it might look very confusing, if that's the case for you just look for what's always true about the designs and try to find out what can change. If you stick to what's always true you can't do wrong and if you push in the direction of what can change you'll find yourself with a good design that fits ;)

[Amazerath]

5 hours ago, [DE]Taylor said:

The "please avoid facial features" point is a guideline, like all others.[...]

I'll try to be as clear as possible because my posts seem to be causing some confusion. This is what you wrote in your original post here:

"That means anything that would resemble eyes (including eye-coverings) or mouths will not be accepted."

Maybe we disagree on what that kind of wording conveys, but to me there is no nuance to be found there. To me that sentence means "don't do it because it is not allowed". So naturally, after looking at some warframe examples that include eye-coverings a big question mark popped up in my head.

What you're saying now is pretty much the opposite of that sentence in the first page (at least in my understanding). You're now talking about exceptions, nuances and figuring out where the line is drawn. So I asked yous guys to try to keep the guidelines a bit more about that, and less about "do this/don't do that" topics. Not saying you should not tell people what to do and what to avoid, but when you're just giving us a 'recommendation' you need to explain it's not a 'rule'. Otherwise some people will get confused.

Lastly, I think some of the tips you've been giving us in this thread deserve to be in the Art Style Guide. It's up to you guys to decide.

[Salenstormwing]

Dat Mesa. 

Much Clem. Such Wow.