Why is this not nerfed ? Yes synoid simolor

[Magneu]

16 hours ago, Nomen_Nescio said:

It's different doesn't mean it's "oh so hard nerf everything pls they must suffer like we do on this point and click adventure".

I've been using sniper rifles almost exclusively in Borderlands for example because they're fun to use, actually will kill most enemies in one shot with some exceptions if you're aiming for the head and they're effective because you'll never have a room full of mobs you have to kill in order not to fail a mission + no bullst enemies like ancients that can drain all your energy in one hot or cc you.

Warframe has neither of that, it doesn't even have headshots, only faceshots. All weapons are easy to use, snipers and bows are not effective unless you're fighting bosses in WF. 

I never implied that everything good has to be nerfed, I just advocate that everything should be within a certain range of power. If AOE had a place as applying low/moderate damage to a large area, that's alright by me. Sniper levels of damage in a constant AOE is a bit broken, though.

I do not deny that snipers still need work; in my opinion, snipers should be OHKO machines well into difficult content, as they are limited by single-target, fire rate, reload, etc. 

Basically, I believe the SySim is way too easy to use for the payout it gives, while certain classes of precision weapons don't have enough payout for the effort required to use them compared to AOE. I also agree with you on enemies with cheap/broken tactics (Ancient MLG-hooks need to die, heavy ground slam animation over-ride/midair is ridiculous, etc). 

AOE needs to not be the best choice for 90%+ of situations.

[Magneu]

20 hours ago, Shockwave- said:

So you are ignoring the post entirely. Please address the issue that was brought up. THere are TONS of abilities that are not aimed... you don't get headshots or aim better with anything I named and I didn't name half of them. WF isn't designed this way actually. The LONGER you play the more rewards, but not the better.

Again, so are all the WF powers mentioned, in addition there are a ton of weapons that out DPS the Simulor and are MUCH better at high level enemies and aren't really all that hard to use. Saryn can stand there and clear out hordes of enemies by hitting her own clone at WAY more range than the simulor can (simulor range sucks).... Naramon with melee takes skill? I can go 2-3 HOURS in a survival with Naramon and just click the melee button, no aim not even using stance moves, just forward and click click click. I can NOT go 2 hours in a survival with a synoid simulor doing nothing but using the simulor (no WF abilities).

So again, there are things that are FAR more powerful and take the same exact skill or less skill. Simulor has poor range and reload speed to compensate and it's not the weapon of choice for high level missions.

I misunderstood your statement, my bad. 

Yes, there are lots of un-aimed abilities, but that's besides the point. My issue is with the SySim as a weapon, particularly effort to use vs output; it simply has too many pluses and not enough cons. Abilities are a totally different class, and as such should not be compared; that's like comparing every new motorcycle to the latest Bugatti and attempting to draw parallels. In any case, show me a Spore Sayrn/Bladestorm Ash/ WoF Ember scaling near as high as a SySim (especially with Mirage), and take into account movement/input required/energy costs. Hell, Nidus takes more effort than a SySim. If there's an ability that can match damage output/ease of use to the SySim, I'd love to hear it. Especially when it's used in conjunction with the SySim.

As for Naramon, I've already made my opinion on that clear in this thread. Deflecting a criticism by comparing something else is fallacious argument; the SySim issue is still unresolved.

In regards to weapons, yes, there are a good amount that out DPS the SySim. how many of those can do it in an 11 meter AOE, give you energy, CC enemies, be ammo efficient, and have pure elemental damage (and still be stronger than many weapon in elemental enhancement sorties!)? Assuming one or a few enemies, yes, the SySim is a less optimal choice (unless you hate aiming, like most SySim users I see). Assuming any mission with multiple enemies to kill (AKA most of them), and the SySim wins. A Tigris Prime applies its massive damage/status in a single cone with falloff damage. The SySim applies it 11 meters from merge point, and goes through walls like nothing. A SySim user a floor below me shouldn't be killing everything on the floor I'm on. Hell, removing terrain-ignore would go a long way to fixing the weapon.

In any case, "poor range"? "Reload speed?" It has the widest explosive radius of all explosive weapons, and a faster reload than most every explosive primary (IIRC, faster than any explosive primary). If you're going to defend the SySim, please bring a valid and sound defense, not just make claims that twenty seconds on the Wiki can disprove. As for "weapon of choice for high levels", that is subjective to what "high levels" are. The issue is more so how braindead the weapon is to use on everything up to and including sortie level content, not how it scales beyond level 145 or so compared to other weapons. It's a Homer's drinking bird issue.

[Shockwave-]

6 minutes ago, Magneu said:

I misunderstood your statement, my bad. 

Yes, there are lots of un-aimed abilities, but that's besides the point. My issue is with the SySim as a weapon, particularly effort to use vs output; it simply has too many pluses and not enough cons.

I'll stop you right there. This is a credulous statement. Why does it matter if it is a weapon or a frame power? This still does nothing to address my point that there are tons of unaimed, low skill AOE affects in WF better than Synoid Simulor.

 

7 minutes ago, Magneu said:

n any case, show me a Spore Sayrn/Bladestorm Ash/ WoF Ember scaling near as high as a SySim (especially with Mirage), and take into account movement/input required/energy costs. Hell, Nidus takes more effort than a SySim. If there's an ability that can match damage output/ease of use to the SySim, I'd love to hear it. Especially when it's used in conjunction with the SySim.
 

Spore Saryn can easily out damage the simulor and at greater range. Quake banshee can out damage the simulor on multiple enemies on all sides of the map with far greater range an less skill.

There are no energy costs if you can spam it as often as the simulor. Sorry Saryn or banshee with zenurik can go almost indefinitely, a few times picking up orbs or dropping a pad is about equivalent to the simulor having to get more ammo, which is negligible in either case. WOF ember never shuts off ever.

12 minutes ago, Magneu said:

 

As for Naramon, I've already made my opinion on that clear in this thread. Deflecting a criticism by comparing something else is fallacious argument; the SySim issue is still unresolved.

 

Of COURSE it does. If you are against "cheese" then you should take on the worst cheese first, until DE changes and then go down the list. I see tons of threads about simulor and none about Naramon, I don't see as many about Quake banshee either despite being worse than simulor by every metric you are complaining about

 

. Why is that? is it because while Naramon is WAY more cheesy (as is loki's perma-invisibility) Those don't show up on the kill board. People object not to cheese that trivializes the game - the princple they argue on - but what they REALLY object to is someone using something they aren't using and getting more kills.

16 minutes ago, Magneu said:

In any case, "poor range"? "Reload speed?" It has the widest explosive radius of all explosive weapons, and a faster reload than most every explosive primary (IIRC, faster than any explosive primary). If you're going to defend the SySim, please bring a valid and sound defense, not just make claims that twenty seconds on the Wiki can disprove. As for "weapon of choice for high levels", that is subjective to what "high levels" are. The issue is more so how braindead the weapon is to use on everything up to and including sortie level content, not how it scales beyond level 145 or so compared to other weapons. It's a Homer's drinking bird issue.

Yes poor range. Sorry you can kill enemies much farther away with many weapons than the simulor, the AOE might be good, but it's only a few meters FROM you. You can't shoot across rooms. That is poor range. In fact WOF, or even Rhino Stomp modded correctly will kill things outside the range of the simulor. Stand next to a quake banshee and you won't even SEE the eneimes to fire at them. A spore Saryn again, if you are standing next to a spore Saryn your simulor will never even hit anything. Those all go trough walls too right?

It is not even CLOSE to a homer's drinking bird, sorry you are trying to use that buzzword to make it seem like it's on par with other press 4 to win ability and it's not, it's actually more on par with the reworked abilities of say Saryn then pre rework saryn.

[-Temp0-]

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I never implied that everything good has to be nerfed, I just advocate that everything should be within a certain range of power. If AOE had a place as applying low/moderate damage to a large area, that's alright by me

if it applied damage that wasn't enough to kill it'd be useless.

If the decent damage able to kill like level 100-ish enemies sometimes with armor could've been achieved only with a Banshee or Nova or both on the team it'd be useless.

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AOE needs to not be the best choice for 90%+ of situations.

That's a problem of this game and balance and not weapons.

In a horde mode with unlimited amount of enemies cc is everything. Even if you make snipers better the main reason why aoe is 'better' is the number of enemies it can kill at once and not weapons. And it will be everything unless WF will turn 360 degrees and become another Dark souls in sci-fi settings.

To make single shot hitscan weapons do something you need to change the game itself. By nerfing aoe weapons you won't reward snipers/archers you will just make the life of the majority of players harder for no reason at all. If someone says that weapon is too strong he shoudl ask himself "WHY" first. Soma for example is also strong and also a megalomaniac-scrub choice, but rarely people run it. Because it can't kill groups.

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

On 2/6/2017 at 3:01 AM, Nomen_Nescio said:

 

Just like everything else.

Don't fool yourself into thinking that aiming with sniper rifles or other weapons takes "skill" you want to talk "skill" go play CS GO, Overwatch and other similar games, even Borderlans will do I guess. All the difference in a horde mode pve game your weapon/fire mode does is makes you kill quicker or slower. That's literally all. You won't improve your aim playing WF and you're no better than someone's using simulor or tonkor in terms of aiming or being rewarded by doing so. Deal with it.

I will never forget days when as a noob I was using mostly melee and then hitscan weapons like soma coupled with the fact that barely anyone used warframe powers, it all made missions like defense last for freaking eternity. Once in a while it can be fun to use a bow or something like that, but that's as far as it goes because it's so fn slow and painful it's unbearable.

Change simulor here for any other weapon that is able to carry you through high level enjoy the same result but at the much slower rate so you will most likely run out of life support and will get a hand cramp from mashing lmb.

All the difference.

Have you played PvP with a Sniper? Invalid :p 

 

 

Thing is... Snipers don't do as much damage as they should do. Inside or outside of PvP. People who use Simulor do it for one reason. To get through the mission as fast as possible. Not sure you realize this, but after doing the same mission farming the same thing over and over again.. Makes you want to get through it faster. I have personally helped 10 people go from mastery rank 1 to Mr 15. Giving them mods and helping them with other things and I am personally guilty of using frames that trivialize a mission cause I don't have the patience to run a mission 27 times the slow and drawn out way just so i can help give them a Vital Sense. (Seriously it supposedly drops like candy on wave 15 defense but took forever to get.) The SynSim is fine. If you don't like it.. Seriously go play private or with friends who won't use it. People who play public WANT to get through it as fast as possible. They want their thing and they want it know. 

[-Temp0-]

No one cares about pvp and as 90% of players never even touched it.

And there's no point whatsoever because the whole point of those crying was missed by a mile, people cry because their teammates 'steal their kills'. In pve. Where there's a ton of mobs to kill. Which you won't kill with a sniper rifle/bow effectively and would always need to run slow nova/day equinox ect to even play with them.

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Not sure you realize this, but after doing the same mission farming the same thing over and over again..

Not sure if you even read a post because that's what I was saying all along.

Most of the weapons simply aren't viable. Weapons that people are crying about just are. Every time I personally try to use some swaggy weapon like Amprex I end up hating my life - yes it's nice to use if you run a very short low level mission, but try to step out of the star chat even for an endless fissure - you will soon find out you can't get enough life support with this crp, you run out of ammo in no time and can't kill anything past minute ~20. I ended up switching to Staticor because it wasn't as shtty in a matter of ammo consumption and still was able to kill mobs at this point.

There's NO reason to use those kind of weapons, no reason to forma them. They're bad and always will be bad. Making good weapons like S simulor, Tonkor, Tigris, Staticor, ect just as bad so people have to choose in bad vs bad will just make people play less simple as that. Because playing with this freaking Amprex was a torture. Because I've had enough playing with crppy weapons when I was mr 0-12 as it is to suffer like that after 1000+hours in this game again.

[TasteVengence]

See i have a good use of mine just use Vauban + Repelling Bastel the Simulor pretty much replaces the need for a low strength but max range + duration Vauban to hit 4 saveing all his energy for Basteels

Edited February 9, 2017 by TasteVengence

[Fallen_Echo]

58 minutes ago, Nomen_Nescio said:

Most of the weapons simply aren't viable. Weapons that people are crying about just are. Every time I personally try to use some swaggy weapon like Amprex I end up hating my life - yes it's nice to use if you run a very short low level mission, but try to step out of the star chat even for an endless fissure - you will soon find out you can't get enough life support with this crp, you run out of ammo in no time and can't kill anything past minute ~20. I ended up switching to Staticor because it wasn't as shtty in a matter of ammo consumption and still was able to kill mobs at this point.

There's NO reason to use those kind of weapons, no reason to forma them. They're bad and always will be bad. Making good weapons like S simulor, Tonkor, Tigris, Staticor, ect just as bad so people have to choose in bad vs bad will just make people play less simple as that. Because playing with this freaking Amprex was a torture. Because I've had enough playing with crppy weapons when I was mr 0-12 as it is to suffer like that after 1000+hours in this game again.

Amprex is a top tier weapon, with high crit, good status and good damage.

The only problem is that it eats ammo fast (use carrier) and requies 5+ formas.

[Nox_Terminus]

Synoid Simulor on its own isn't that broken, toss in hall of mirrors spam and then it becomes a proverbial butt cactus for anyone else in the squad who was intending to do something other than watch a light show.

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

14 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Amprex is a top tier weapon, with high crit, good status and good damage.

The only problem is that it eats ammo fast (use carrier) and requies 5+ formas.

yeah and you actually have to *gasp* aim with it to make most of its crit damage, like, to the head... imagine. what a chore...

[Fallen_Echo]

6 hours ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

yeah and you actually have to *gasp* aim with it to make most of its crit damage, like, to the head... imagine. what a chore...

Does that matter when it deals atleast double the damage of the synoid simulor? I was just trying to point out there are easier ways to shred up masses of enemies than launching a ball what travels for 12 meters and have an 5 meter wide aoe. 

Im going to say that no matter what weapon the mirages choose, people will gonna be insanely salty about it because it automatically deals triple damaga if modded right. Just imagine the meta changing to the tonkor with the new riven mods, people would almost instantly start to cry that it needs to be nerfed because they cant deal with the insane damage output.

[(XBOX)CannyJack]

11 hours ago, Nox_Terminus said:

Synoid Simulor on its own isn't that broken, toss in hall of mirrors spam and then it becomes a proverbial butt cactus for anyone else in the squad who was intending to do something other than watch a light show.

Well, I'm now officially adding my voice to the "please do something about this" crowd. However, it's not for the funkiller issue (which is also a thing - I've considered dropping plat on a Synoid Simulor just to delete it and feel like I've done my part to reduce the surplus population - but that's not why I'm here).

I've just hit my limit on Miragulor's making it impossible to actually hit targets, due to performance hits when they (predictably) go bonkers with the fire button. I play on Xbox, obviously, and it's usually pretty stable: hit detection is acceptable, it moves at a speed/framerate/performance level I expect from a console. All that goes straight out the window when Mirage + Simulor shows up and does its thing. Choppy framerate, almost complete loss of hit detection, etc. Basically, I don't have any choice but let the Mirage kill everything. None of the targets are where they appear to be, so I can't friggin' hit anything anyway. 

Maybe there's nothing to be done there. Perhaps a better option would be to set up a flag in matchmaking that says "Don't match me with a team that includes: " and then add all the different warframes. 

 

Edit: or maybe just make the projectiles and sound audible/visible only to the player using them. And the doppelgangers. And make them play in their own game, since they've already got two other players with them. 

Edited February 10, 2017 by (XB1)CannyJack

[-N7-Leonhart]

I will have a drink the day it's nerfed, and I never normally drink alcohol.

[-Temp0-]

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Basically, I believe the SySim is way too easy to use for the payout it gives,

Again.It's not Arma there's no such thing as hard to use what you're saying is that most of the weapons are shtty because of x,y,z.Most prominent thing that defines why 90% of them are shtty is because they can't take several enemies at once or have awful ammo consuption for the damage/kill count - which warframe is all about. Like I said if you can't reliably kill enemies you will fail especially missions like survival fissure. At some point you will run into level x enemies that it will take a shtload of time to kill and you will waste 5 minutes with no rewards and will have to extract.

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AOE needs to not be the best choice for 90%+ of situations.

Wrong. Game.

AOE is effective against groups, what the actual heck do you expect? It's a horde mode game. AOE will be a bad choice if all such weapons will be an utter crp past level 30 no other reason.

 

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Amprex is a top tier weapon, with high crit, good status and good damage.

The only problem is that it eats ammo fast (use carrier) and requies 5+ formas.

Amprex is sht and so is his damage but what is most important, ammo consumption. Just like Ignis and gammacor.

In the same mission I've ran out of ammo repeatedly despite having ammo mutation (granted I was with a kavat but still - Staticor without ammo mutation was doing jsut fine ffs)+wasn't being able to kill sht past a certain point. I had to use staticor for the rest of the mission and the level of enemies wasn't een that high, not even reached 80-100. That amprex had 2 formas. Not gonna waste more on this crp since even a sidearm beats it.

Also the amount of formas you need to slap onto weapon to even fit all the mods in all slots is ridiculous and anotehr reason why no one ever will use suboptimal weapons over "OP" ones. No one is crazy enough to waste 4-6 formas and time to level it up only to end up not being able to complete a sortie with it.

Edited February 11, 2017 by Nomen_Nescio

[Chipputer]

1 hour ago, Nomen_Nescio said:

Wrong. Game.

Man, I really appreciate it being the wrong game, especially when single targets get taken out by AoE weapons just as fast as single shot weapons.

AoE is the best in literally every situation except the incredibly slim chance you need a long range shot. Why use a bow on a boss when I can just drop a bunch of SySim balls near him and destroy his health bar with no effort?

It being a horde mode shooter doesn't suddenly mean that you shouldn't ever have to put any effort into aiming. Even Left 4 Dead (2) has snipers.

[-Temp0-]

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especially when single targets get taken out by AoE weapons just as fast as single shot weapons.

And why it should be different mechanics-wise?

Cause your gun got jammed if there's less than x enemies around? It's the whole stupid and pointless debate just like in pvp games like Overwatch where you can give character x the ability to stun only characters y, z and w (flankers) cause reasons and make the stun ability do nothing to characters a, b and c (supports) cause also reasons.

Damage is damage it will be applied to targets.The whole debate is stupid af because you can always run any literally frame you want using any weapon you want, your arm is not glue to a simulor or tonkor.

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It being a horde mode shooter doesn't suddenly mean that you shouldn't ever have to put any effort into aiming. Even Left 4 Dead (2) has snipers.

I put effort into aiming when I'm playing Overwatch or Borderlands because revolvers and sniper rifles aren't cr*p there and actually make you 1 enjoy using them 2 make a difference 3 make you efficiently kill targets. And needless to say, you can put all the effort you like in WF - YOU have a choice. You can choose between aoe and single target weapons. 

By nerfing AOE weapons to the point where it's not worth using in a horde game you strip other players of that choice and force them to play their game the  way you want them to play - depsite the fact that both of you might as well spend 99% of your time playing solo - how stupid is that exactly? You essecially decide what is "fair" for all players, you decided that your opinion for whatever the hell reason is more important than theirs when you say "I don't want x to be good" and think it has more value than "we want x to be good because we enjpy it" - despite it not affecting you at all just because you can't sleep at night knowing someone has to press LMB 2 tmes insted of 4 for the same effect or doesn't have to scope while you do. 

And it's all in a pve game that even has an option to be played solo. This is beyond being stupid this is a whole new level. 

 

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Even Left 4 Dead (2) has snipers.

You have sniper rifles and bows. By all means use them, leave players who don't want to touch them in WF be, they didn't kill your whole family for you to hate them that much.

Edited February 11, 2017 by Nomen_Nescio

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

1 hour ago, Nomen_Nescio said:

You have sniper rifles and bows. By all means use them, leave players who don't want to touch them in WF be, they didn't kill your whole family for you to hate them that much.

I think snipers should be buffed :[ 

 

I'm on the opposite side of this argument. I want things to be buffed to be as strong as the simulor in their own way... Like maybe buffing snipers so that they have crit and punch through like bows >.>

[Magneu]

On 2/11/2017 at 3:56 PM, Nomen_Nescio said:

Damage is damage it will be applied to targets.The whole debate is stupid af because you can always run any literally frame you want using any weapon you want, your arm is not glue to a simulor or tonkor.

The whole point is that AOE shouldn't do as much DPS as single target; why even use single target then? A healthy game should promote weapon diversity, not promote gravitating towards a single class of weapons. That just makes the game stale in the long run; look up some videos/articles on game balance for good examples (last time I posted links was in the massive Tonkor thread, and I'd like to not do that again.

Maybe I'm just old fashioned, but I think that AOE shouldn't do as much single target damage...as a single target dedicated weapon.

[Soketsu]

why snipers are behind auto rifle ?

even if you want weapon diversity, it's not only the weapon themself you need to loock at, but the opponents to fight too... and we fight mostly horde, not boss.

Perhaps if sniper/bow could deal with nullifier and the incoming new eximus faster than the other ways, it could change but until then, the meta won't change.

[sappinmahsentry]

Can people stop saying "the weapon isn't that good without mirage."

It is ABSOLUTELY that good without mirage, WITH mirage it pushes the weapon from near game-breaking to absolute game-breaking. Trust me, I've done many missions with this weapon, without mirage, and it still carried me with higher damage and much higher kills than every other person in the squad. I've seen other people do it, too. You don't need a mirage, you just need LMB.

[Fallen_Echo]

16 hours ago, Magneu said:

The whole point is that AOE shouldn't do as much DPS as single target; why even use single target then? A healthy game should promote weapon diversity, not promote gravitating towards a single class of weapons. That just makes the game stale in the long run; look up some videos/articles on game balance for good examples (last time I posted links was in the massive Tonkor thread, and I'd like to not do that again.

Maybe I'm just old fashioned, but I think that AOE shouldn't do as much single target damage...as a single target dedicated weapon.

Wait a bit...

Let me get this straight, you are trying to say that a single target weapons should deal more damage than an aoe one?

Let me ask you what do you think will cause more damage to you if i hit you with an

M1 Garand

OR

a Panzerfaust

 

[Magneu]

1 hour ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Wait a bit...

Let me get this straight, you are trying to say that a single target weapons should deal more damage than an aoe one?

Let me ask you what do you think will cause more damage to you if i hit you with an

M1 Garand

OR

a Panzerfaust

 

I think you missed the part where this is a video game, and video games should have balance; real world need not apply.

Also, I'm no history/weapons buff, but weren't those designed for tanks, and not infantry...?

[Tatersail]

so you camped in a tunnel and think the weapon you used should be nerfed?  even tho the exact same thing can be done in a tunnel with a dozen other weapons, some with greater effect.  A unmodded nova using only antimatter absorb can mash 2 in a tunnel and get the same effect.

Back when we where required to farm void survival that tunnel was many players bread and butter, Vauban or volt lived in there, this is not a Synoid Simulor issue, its by no means the most effective "tunnel camping semi afk weapon"

 

I do think its a nice idea to have AOE weapons damage shared between all targets, like equinox maim currently works. But where do you draw the line?

do you apply this to punch-through? Target out specific weapons? Nerf specific weapons players use on to farm with? Just whack-A-mole the flavor of the month till players leave?

unless it came with a buff to the damage of aoe weapons, which would make single target crazy, all your effectively doing is nerfing weapons damage

 

Imbalance is actually nice for a game, keeps things interesting.

You could take a nidus to the tunnel and jump on the nerf nidus post? "I sat in that tunnel mashing 1 for a whole 30 mins, OMG nerf Nidus, he so OP"

[(PSN)sack_shot01]

Just like the synoid gammacore :/

[Fallen_Echo]

9 hours ago, Magneu said:

I think you missed the part where this is a video game, and video games should have balance; real world need not apply.

Also, I'm no history/weapons buff, but weren't those designed for tanks, and not infantry...?

I played many games with weapon like these and believe me a rocketlauncher was equally good against a group of enemies as taking out tanks. The panzerfaust was my favorite weapon to take out grouped together enemies after i took out the tanks.

Im sorry but i cant think of any fps game where an aoe weapon dealt less damage to single targets than a single target dedicated gun. Most of them obviously had damage falloff depending on range but to implement something like that in this game we would have to atleast double the current max aoe range of our weapons.