Banshee causing Seizures

[mrecentric]

FYI http://gamedev.stackexchange.com/questions/9007/how-can-i-test-my-game-for-epilepsy-safety

Edited February 24, 2017 by mrecentric

[Gryphon57]

1 hour ago, [DE]Dmitri said:

Ideally no one should feel nauseous when playing Warframe, and if they do then we sincerely apologize. Hopefully the changes that will be going live soon can help improve the experience for yourself and any other players who have been affected. If the game still feels unplayable to anyone with epilepsy then we will go back to the drawing board and make it better. Sometimes it can be difficult to gauge how far we can go with certain effects, so all feedback is greatly appreciated.

Is there a possibility that Limbo might also be looked as as either having a toggle or some other way to remove or limit the flashing? Thank you so much for the reply, it gives me a small bit of hope.

[HyokaChan]

1 hour ago, [DE]Dmitri said:

Ideally no one should feel nauseous when playing Warframe, and if they do then we sincerely apologize.

Then why don't we have a screen shake toggle? ._. 

[[DE]Linkski]

40 minutes ago, HyokaChan said:

Then why don't we have a screen shake toggle? ._. 

This was addressed in a previous post.

On 2/23/2017 at 11:03 AM, [DE]Dmitri said:

Camera shaking is something we have been discussing, however we do not have anything to announce at the moment. I can assure you that we are aware that there are some players who find the shaking difficult to handle and we hope to have a solution for this in the future.

 

[bl4ckhunter]

3 hours ago, [DE]Dmitri said:

Ideally no one should feel nauseous when playing Warframe, and if they do then we sincerely apologize. Hopefully the changes that will be going live soon can help improve the experience for yourself and any other players who have been affected. If the game still feels unplayable to anyone with epilepsy then we will go back to the drawing board and make it better. Sometimes it can be difficult to gauge how far we can go with certain effects, so all feedback is greatly appreciated.

With the upcoming changes to the Telos Boltace the particles seem to be more reasonable now, however if it still seems out of control then please let us know (possibly with a screenshot) and we can see if there are any further improvements we can make.

Can we possibly also get a version of recoil that doesn't involve awful amounts of screen shake? I do not normally suffer from nausea or any problems of that kind and after half a dozen minutes of playing with a grakata i feel like throwing up. You don't need to actually touch the recoil but for the love of everything holy do something about the screen shake.

[KangarooCornchips]

3 hours ago, CoRRh said:

Is there any chance stuff like this can be made into a toggle for those who are not prone to seizures? I quite enjoy the madness and the light show of both Banshee and the Telos Boltace.

Would love a toggle. 

[(PSN)GR13V4NC3]

Not to be insensitive or anything, but shouldn't people avoid video games if they are prone to seizures? I know they can get meds that help, but they're not 100% A friend of mine loved drinking but developed Epilepsy (not sure if family inherited or what) but he had to stop drinking because it increased the risk of an episode. It sucks but it's what he had to do. While this game can be excessive in the graphics and such, shouldn't not playing video games be more important? I love video games, like no other, but if they started making me convulse, I'd definitely not be playing anymore... I'm not dying for my entertainment.

[NightmareT12]

1 hour ago, (PS4)GR13V4NC3 said:

Not to be insensitive or anything, but shouldn't people avoid video games if they are prone to seizures? I know they can get meds that help, but they're not 100% A friend of mine loved drinking but developed Epilepsy (not sure if family inherited or what) but he had to stop drinking because it increased the risk of an episode. It sucks but it's what he had to do. While this game can be excessive in the graphics and such, shouldn't not playing video games be more important? I love video games, like no other, but if they started making me convulse, I'd definitely not be playing anymore... I'm not dying for my entertainment.

What you'd be dying for then? Once you're gone that's all there's left.

Directly to the question, There's plenty of people with levels of epilepsy that are not that severe for videogames to trigger an episode, or in a way to better my wording, there's lots of games that lack any trigger to episodes. On another note, imagine tomorrow you developed motion sickness and couldn't play Warframe because of it. Would suck, right?

DE always tries to be as fair as possible to all players in this sense, so in this case, yes, I hope there's a better solution foor Banshee and some other issues for people sensitive to that. In this case might be of even a favor to all players, because usually epilepsy triggers could be classified as "visual noise".

So let's see what DE can come up with, I have high trust for them in this regard :)

Edited February 24, 2017 by NightmareT12
answering to queRtions is important. RIP me.

[MagPrime]

1 hour ago, (PS4)GR13V4NC3 said:

Not to be insensitive or anything, but shouldn't people avoid video games if they are prone to seizures? I know they can get meds that help, but they're not 100% A friend of mine loved drinking but developed Epilepsy (not sure if family inherited or what) but he had to stop drinking because it increased the risk of an episode. It sucks but it's what he had to do. While this game can be excessive in the graphics and such, shouldn't not playing video games be more important? I love video games, like no other, but if they started making me convulse, I'd definitely not be playing anymore... I'm not dying for my entertainment.

There is a difference between alcohol and video games though. 

There isn't much the brewer can do to lower the effects their product has on a customer, however, a game producer can and does do a lot to make sure all of the players can play and enjoy the game safely. 

Yes, it does make sense to stop doing the thing that makes you sick, but in this instance, it's not unreasonable to ask DE to make some changes.

On Topic;

I am so glad Banshee's visuals are getting tweaked. I've had to stop playing with random ones because I keep running into players that like bright colors and that'll trigger a migraine for me.

Edited February 24, 2017 by MagPrime

[(PSN)GR13V4NC3]

11 minutes ago, NightmareT12 said:

What you'd be dying for then? Once you're gone that's all there's left.

Directly to the question, There's plenty of people with levels of epilepsy that are not that severe for videogames to trigger an episode, or in a way to better my wording, there's lots of games that lack any trigger to episodes. On another note, imagine tomorrow you developed motion sickness and couldn't play Warframe because of it. Would suck, right?

DE always tries to be as fair as possible to all players in this sense, so in this case, yes, I hope there's a better solution foor Banshee and some other issues for people sensitive to that. In this case might be of even a favor to all players, because usually epilepsy triggers could be classified as "visual noise".

So let's see what DE can come up with, I have high trust for them in this regard :)

I get ya. Ever hear of these?

https://gunnar.com/

Maybe they could help? Not really up on all the info of the condition. I have a pair and they do help significantly. And just for clarification, no I do not work for them. If you already where glasses, Crizal actually makes there own version that is even better, but has a magenta tint to them. Both can be done with or without prescription, though the Crizal will be the more expensive.

Edited February 24, 2017 by (PS4)GR13V4NC3

[NightmareT12]

Just now, (PS4)GR13V4NC3 said:

I get ya. Ever hear of these?

https://gunnar.com/

Maybe they could help? Not really up on all the info of the condition. I have a pair and they do help significantly. And just for clarification, no I do not work for them.

I fortunately don't suffer from epilepsy :P But I can totally understand people who'd suffer from it though, hence my post.

Also that's a nice suggestion and I hope some people can consider them :D

[(PSN)GR13V4NC3]

It's just funny, cause I don't often come across Banshees and I recently did in a mission with some clan-mates and it was the first time I saw her augmented 4th (since the change) and my initial reaction (and I actually said this aloud) was, "This is gonna kill a few people."

Edited February 24, 2017 by (PS4)GR13V4NC3

[Cat__Nap]

3 hours ago, (PS4)GR13V4NC3 said:

Not to be insensitive or anything, but shouldn't people avoid video games if they are prone to seizures? I know they can get meds that help, but they're not 100% A friend of mine loved drinking but developed Epilepsy (not sure if family inherited or what) but he had to stop drinking because it increased the risk of an episode. It sucks but it's what he had to do. While this game can be excessive in the graphics and such, shouldn't not playing video games be more important? I love video games, like no other, but if they started making me convulse, I'd definitely not be playing anymore... I'm not dying for my entertainment.

I don't suffer from epilepsy, but I have chronic migraines that have the same triggers, and I'm on anti-seizure medications to prevent them. Usually on any given day, I'm totally fine with games, but I stay away from any that ARE known to cause equilibrium issues (Dying Light, I'm looking at you), because those are very likely to trigger a full-blown migraine for me.

I get almost instantly nauseated and my head starts pounding after even 30 seconds of Banshee's new effect. The strobing is one of the worst things I've ever seen in a game visually. If I tried lasting even 5 minutes using Soundquake on her off and on, or played with a Banshee who did, after the change, I'd probably be in bed for the rest of the day. It's that obstructive.

When you can play visually taxing games no problem but ONE effect is added to an already-visually-fine game, that's really up to the developer to make the single effect they created not so blatantly sickening. If someone came in and complained about a lot of effects in the game, I'd agree they shouldn't be playing it, but if epileptics and migraine sufferers can currently play Warframe without issue, I don't see why we should have to quit just because of one added effect, rather than the added effect being tweaked (which, thankfully, they're doing).

[(PSN)GR13V4NC3]

1 minute ago, Cat__Nap said:

I don't suffer from epilepsy, but I have chronic migraines that have the same triggers, and I'm on anti-seizure medications to prevent them. Usually on any given day, I'm totally fine with games, but I stay away from any that ARE known to cause equilibrium issues (Dying Light, I'm looking at you), because those are very likely to trigger a full-blown migraine for me.

I get almost instantly nauseated and my head starts pounding after even 30 seconds of Banshee's new effect. The strobing is one of the worst things I've ever seen in a game visually. If I tried lasting even 5 minutes using Soundquake on her off and on, or played with a Banshee who did, after the change, I'd probably be in bed for the rest of the day. It's that obstructive.

When you can play visually taxing games no problem but ONE effect is added to an already-visually-fine game, that's really up to the developer to make the single effect they created not so blatantly sickening. If someone came in and complained about a lot of effects in the game, I'd agree they shouldn't be playing it, but if epileptics and migraine sufferers can currently play Warframe without issue, I don't see why we should have to quit just because of one added effect, rather than the added effect being tweaked (which, thankfully, they're doing).

Definitely try the glasses I recommended, I don't suffer from headaches or anything but I have noticed the relief that they provide... even over 12 hours of straight gameplay. It is significant enough to warrant a trial run.

[Fluffysbeans]

I don't have any medical issues, and the effects don't bother me, but I can understand if they'd bother other people. The small issue is though, just because someone else is having trouble with an effect, should I have to lose that same visual effect? I know screen shake toggles were brought up, so wouldn't a toned down VFX toggle be a smart choice as well? I know that's not some technically easy thing to implement, but for the sake of fairness, those who don't have issues with the effects really shouldn't be left in the dust.

[Chipputer]

I'm glad to see DE is addressing this issue but I do find it awfully funny how many people complain about having epileptic issues when they change one single ability on a frame that's rarely seen out of seemingly nowhere.

I especially find it convenient that some people are complaining in stead of others.

But whatever. As long as the game becomes more user friendly then that's fine.

[Cat__Nap]

1 hour ago, (PS4)GR13V4NC3 said:

Definitely try the glasses I recommended, I don't suffer from headaches or anything but I have noticed the relief that they provide... even over 12 hours of straight gameplay. It is significant enough to warrant a trial run.

Yeah, I hadn't heard about those. Might give them a try when I can afford it. Definitely would likely help with overall computer usage considering I have to use the dimmest screen settings on everything to avoid headaches from looking at white-backgrounded webpages (though, to be fair, I also have to avoid too much outside time during very sunny days for the same reason).

Different issue than the strobing Banshee effect, ofc, but that still sounds useful for a potential decrease in frequency of headaches. Maybe it would help even with flashing effects like Banshee's if they had refused to change it, who knows. Will have to give it a test when I'm able. Thanks for mentioning that! :)

[Bibliothekar]

On 21.2.2017 at 10:51 PM, [DE]Dmitri said:

We have already reduced the brightness of the effect, and now it fades when near.

Personally, I think it would be enough if the "wave" just travelled along the ground, like a MOA shockwave, instead of extending vertically as well.

/e: Also, new favourite [DE]mployee, just for all the upcoming changes you mentioned. :)

Edited February 25, 2017 by Bibliothekar

[NightmareT12]

1 minute ago, Bibliothekar said:

Personally, I think it would be enough if the "wave" just travelled along the ground, like a MOA shockwave, instead of extending vertically as well.

I guess they didn't want to to distinguish it from the MOAs though.

[Bibliothekar]

2 minutes ago, NightmareT12 said:

I guess they didn't want to to distinguish it from the MOAs though.

Well, for one there'd be the notable difference in size (and maybe movement speed), and so far I haven't seen any Banshee with dark yellow energy beside myself.

[Zanchak]

3 hours ago, Fluffysbeans said:

I don't have any medical issues, and the effects don't bother me, but I can understand if they'd bother other people. The small issue is though, just because someone else is having trouble with an effect, should I have to lose that same visual effect? I know screen shake toggles were brought up, so wouldn't a toned down VFX toggle be a smart choice as well? I know that's not some technically easy thing to implement, but for the sake of fairness, those who don't have issues with the effects really shouldn't be left in the dust.

This would be an understandable train of thought IF the effect had always existed was not newly implemented. Then it would be more of a, well ok the game has this, try to avoid it.

8 hours ago, (PS4)GR13V4NC3 said:

Not to be insensitive or anything, but shouldn't people avoid video games if they are prone to seizures? I know they can get meds that help, but they're not 100% A friend of mine loved drinking but developed Epilepsy (not sure if family inherited or what) but he had to stop drinking because it increased the risk of an episode. It sucks but it's what he had to do. While this game can be excessive in the graphics and such, shouldn't not playing video games be more important? I love video games, like no other, but if they started making me convulse, I'd definitely not be playing anymore... I'm not dying for my entertainment.

Personally, I dont think I should have to "avoid anything" just because a new effect is added after 1200 or so hours. I already have to "avoid" archwing since it's changes, I won't be able to avoid trolls who deliberately make this sickening (and we know there are some who will) unless I live in solo forever, nor would I be able to play her anymore.

Voices aren't heard unless used, that's why we're here. They softened the fissures effect, I'm confident they can do something with this that pleases most too.

[Insizer]

On 2/23/2017 at 11:24 AM, kubbi said:

Thank you. I'm glad to hear that its been acknowledged and having a response for the matter.

It seems to me that DE is especially responsive when it comes to things like this, where it is not a matter of comfort, but of health.  I recall that when Nezha came out, there was a user who made an in depth post about how the wobbling and the off center spinning of Warding Halo was causing severe motion sickness or something.  A few days later it was changed to be just spinning.

[ZHeart]

On 2/24/2017 at 11:20 AM, [DE]Dmitri said:

This was addressed in a previous post.

 

I have this issue with the moon doing it too when it starts to fall apart i have to wait untill its done looking away from the screen its annoying makes me so sick.

[AdunSaveMe]

On 22/02/2017 at 8:51 AM, [DE]Dmitri said:

Absolutely. We have already reduced the brightness of the effect, and now it fades when near. So hopefully that is enough to avoid running into the kind of trouble that imObvioslycrazy brought up.

Are you going to do something similar for the Bard frame? Seriously, if the whole team sees those ability effects, visual clutter is going to be a hell of a lot worse than it is.We really don't need that much messiness added to the game just to look neat.

Also, I feel like Soundquake's effect could work better if the cracks along the ground showed the range of it, and their visibility pulsed with the ability. So instead of having a big expanding bubble, you have cracks along the ground that are only visible when it pulses. Still shows the range, looks awesome, doesn't fill the screen.

11 hours ago, ZHeart said:

I have this issue with the moon doing it too when it starts to fall apart i have to wait untill its done looking away from the screen its annoying makes me so sick.

I hate that too. I just stop playing until it's gone. I feel like screen shake should be considered more seriously. It has very little gameplay or visual benefit.

[kubbi]

On 26-2-2017 at 9:53 PM, Insizer said:

It seems to me that DE is especially responsive when it comes to things like this, where it is not a matter of comfort, but of health.  I recall that when Nezha came out, there was a user who made an in depth post about how the wobbling and the off center spinning of Warding Halo was causing severe motion sickness or something.  A few days later it was changed to be just spinning.

Eh it depends I guess on the severity of effects. Nezhas halo effect was pretty bad so its good they took action against that quikly. The request for a toggle for camera shake has been ongoing for about 2 years. I dont see a toggle or a tuning for it happening anytime soon. But at least now we know its been acknowledged and its just a matter of waiting.

Edited February 28, 2017 by kubbi