Limbo Rework Discussion and Feedback

[KaeseSchnitte]

One update I'd propose to lessen trolling is to change the projectile freeze into a 99% slow, so teammates can still shoot enemies by hugging them. This should help especially in primary/secondary only survival missions.

[FoxsongHD]

Ichi byou keika, San byou keika, Yon byou keika, Go byou keika, Roku byou keika, Nana byou keika, Hachi byou keika. Sosh(i)te, toki wa ugoki dasu

All seriousness though, the new skills look great, looking forward to using him.

Edited February 18, 2017 by FoxsongHD

[Azamagon]

1 hour ago, KaeseSchnitte said:

One update I'd propose to lessen trolling is to change the projectile freeze into a 99% slow, so teammates can still shoot enemies by hugging them. This should help especially in primary/secondary only survival missions.

I don't even understand WHY it has to slow down ALLIED gunfire as well... it's not like Limbo has troubles trolling already >_>

[Koldraxon-732]

Limbo being able to pause time will get people experimenting with all kinds of weaponry. I too look forward to fiddling with Limbo's new power.

[FoxsongHD]

Just now, Koldraxon-732 said:

Limbo being able to pause time will get people experimenting with all kinds of weaponry. I too look forward to fiddling with Limbo's new power.

Just imagine opticor

[Koldraxon-732]

2 minutes ago, FoxsongHD said:

Just imagine opticor

Opticor is the bottom of the chain. Imagine what a Zarr, Talons, Exalted Blade (if that works), or even a Javlok, could do.

[yles9056]

I don't think this is a feedback

Anyway......wwwwrrrryyyyyyyyyyyy!!!!

[FoxsongHD]

1 minute ago, yles9056 said:

I don't think this is a feedback

Anyway......wwwwrrrryyyyyyyyyyyy!!!!

It is feedback, saying I'm looking forward to the changes and think they did great and putting a jojoke into it.

[Buzkyl]

8 hours ago, Buzkyl said:

While the Limbo rework gave Limbo alot more options to send enemies into the rift,what wasn't shown was the ability to force enemies out of the rift. This is especially useful for reducing the active number of enemies within his cataclysm and mini cataclysm to prevent Stasis from overloading.

 

Proposed Change:

• When casting Banish on an enemy within Cataclysm, the target is teleported to a spot shortly outside the bubble.
• Banish can be used to close mini cataclysms caused by rift surge.

 

This allows Banish to still retain use when limbo is inside his bubble as a way out of the rift rather than into it. It also aids in limiting the number of active unwanted pockets of the rift that may be caused by rift surge.

I'm bringing this back into discussion because the more it hink about it. The more it doesn't make sense.

Limbo got more options to bring enemies into he rift, while simultaneously  being punished for doing so.DE is aware that Limbo can troll teammates however without a way to force enemies out of rift bubbles and cataclysms, I fear limbo will troll himself.  However i have to ask why is there a cap in the first place?

Make the ability akin to pacify and provoke where the energy cost depends on the number of targets being affected by the skill. Limbo has a massive energy pool and regenerates energy constantly, along with energy pads and Zenurik focus he can handle heft energy costs.

Edited February 18, 2017 by Buzkyl

[BalaDeSilver]

But the most important thing of all is making the acessories on Limbo (including his hat) to get the smoke effect of the Rift. At least in low graphics, only Limbo's body goes into the Rift visual effect, but any syandana, his hat, or armor part will have any effect on. This is also true for mobile parts of Nidus. (I didn't paid attention to this in the devstream)

[BalaDeSilver]

3 minutes ago, Buzkyl said:

I'm bringing this back into discussion because the more it hink about it. The more it doesn't make sense.

Limbo got more options to bring enemies into he rift, while simultaneously  being punished for doing so.DE is aware that Limbo can troll teammates whoeever without a way to force enemies out of rift bubbles and cataclysms, I fear limbo will troll himself.  However i have to ask why is there a cap in the first place?

Make the ability akin to pacify and provoke where the energy cost depends on the number of targets being affected by the skill. Limbo has a massive energy pool and regenerates energy constantly, along with energy pads and Zenurik focus he can handle heft energy costs.

Makes waaaaaaay more sense, and I would deffinitelly Blind Rage, because I like to spend energy for nothing :v

[PsiWarp]

There's something I noticed (probably someone else did too): when Rebecca banished that Heavy Gunner and used Stasis, she then banished the Corrupted Ancient which was also frozen in time, but the Heavy Gunner was not unbanished from the AoE. Same thing happened with the Corrupted Butchers near the Life Support.

So I'm curious to see if Stasis is active, then unbanishing doesn't work?

Edited February 18, 2017 by PsiWarp

[SenorClipClop]

11 minutes ago, Koldraxon-732 said:

Exalted Blade (if that works)

Powers won't be affected, as stated in the latest Devstream. No luck for radial EB slashes all at once, but weapons are gonna have some fun.

(Personally, I'm look forward to setting up extra Ogris rockets in a doorway and blowing them when enemies show up. Limbo is going to have so much more interesting burst potential :)

[Bobtm]

The shown Limbo changes from Devstream 88 are, honestly a bit of a mixed bag.  Some of the prospective changes look quite nice from both a playstyle and usability standpoint.  Two changes (his 1 and 3) however are legitimately going to be major mistakes.  For brevity's sakes I'll try and keep things as short and sweet as I can, but without leaving out necessary details.

• AoE Banish, and why it's going to make everyone's (Both the Limbo and their squadmates) lives miserable.

AoE on Banish is something a lot of players who just never quite got how to use Limbo well have asked for, and it's been a bad thing to ask for the entire time.  If a player wants mroe than one thing drawn into the Rift, that's Cataclysm's purpose, if they want to single out a foe tactically, that's Banish's purpose.  This change creates unnecessary overlap between them.

Ever since seeing this change I've been thinking a whole lot about how this will impact Limbo's usability.  Sadly, the negatives greatly outweigh the positives here especially when you bring squadplay into the mix.  For example, let's say I want to drawn an Eximus unit into the mix and get rid of them swiftly and discretely (which is something Limbo currently excels at with his 1) well not so much with a large AoE on Banish.  Not only are you now going to be pulling in a whole gaggle of foes, but it's going to be very easy and very likely that you will, without your own desire to do so, be pulling in one or more allies.  Especially so if they have a melee oriented playstyle.

Having AoE on Banish actually exacerbates the obtrusive nature of Limbo's kit rather than pushing it back.  Accidental ally banishment rates will skyrocket even with well placed/timed casts of his 1.  And even beyond that, using Banish regularly as a part of your play is like having the ability to call eternal "dibs" on clusters of enemies, locking allies out of combat.  To even further mess things up, Limbo (with the current shown changes) loses his massive damage boost on his 3, which makes him drastically weaker in the Rift than he is currently.  Making him far worse at actually killing anything he does Banish.

If people are dead set on somehow wanting Banish to have an AoE, despite how obtrusive an idea as it is, please have it use a reversed style of Ivara's Quiver.  Tap to cast (have AoE as the default state if it is so desired) and hold to swap between having it in AoE mode and single target mode.  Part of the reason a lot of folks hate setups like Mirage/Simulor or old Bladespam Ash are because they actively and powerfully take gameplay away from squadmates.  Having an AoE Banish does the exact same thing, with the added drawback of also and likely regularly Banishing allies who do not wish to be Banished.

In solo play AoE Banish is fine, but for everything else, it's just asking for trouble.

• [PH]Stasis impacting allied fire.

This falls into the same category as the above, it's just going to make folks manage to hate having a Limbo in their squad more than they already do.  Which is pretty shocking in and of itself.  Luckily there's nothing to even explain here.  Folks already have issues with Limbo players (either through accident or on purpose) trolling in general play.  This brings it to a whole new level of ultranope.

• Limbo's new 3, which is a very flashy and thematically interesting trait.  But ultimately both a major nerf and a source of personal and squad ire.

On paper this ability sounds very awesome, however given what limitations we know of for Limbo's prospective newfound CC trait [PH]Stasis this is going to do far, far more harm than good to himself.  While also managing to make things more obtrusive when dealing with squadmates.  Stasis will have a cap on foes/projectiles that it can hold.  Generating a bunch of little Cataclysms across the field of play, while it does sound visually and thematically very wicked, is just going to overextend Limbo's control capabilities and have a very dire impact on his ability to actually function.  Beyond that, having a bunch of mini-Cataclysms everyone is just going to outright piss off allies who now maybe cannot interact with a console that an enemy had been near before bubbling down.

Looking past that, losing the very potent damage buff that is Limbo's current 3 (Rift Surge) drastically weakens his ability to get stuff done in the Rift.  The void-lightning arcs geneated by this, if they just do a fixed damage number, is basically just a "bleh" AoE damage trait which feels pointlessly tacked on.  At the outset Limbo is losing a cataclysmic amount of self buffing, we're only gaining what will inevitably be both a weakness and a chore.

___________________________________

On the positive side the dodge into and out of the Rift looks both fluid and fun.  The fact that Banish doesn't actually just send things into the opposite plane (it pulls enemies onto the same plane as Limbo in the change) is also a very nice idea.  The changes to his Cataclysm while minor also look to be very interesting and could be quite nice.

As a note, those extra little details not shown/explained in the Devstream video are listed here https://warframe.com/news/devstream-88-overview  With the main points of note being how Banish is changed in regards to only moving things onto Limbo's plane.  His 3's full explanation, and the prospective changes to his 4.

6 minutes ago, PsiWarp said:

There's something I noticed (probably someone else did too): when Rebecca banished that Heavy Gunner and used Stasis, she then banished the Corrupted Ancient which was also frozen in time, but the Heavy Gunner was not unbanished from the AoE. Same thing happened with the Corrupted Butchers near the Life Support.

So I'm curious to see if Stasis is active, then unbanishing doesn't work?

That's something I just mentioned lol.  Banish now pulls things onto the plane Limbo is currently on.

Edited February 18, 2017 by Bobtm

[Urlan]

Lets hope its appealing to players that already liked Limbo as is.

[Bobtm]

4 minutes ago, Urlan said:

Lets hope its appealing to players that already liked Limbo as is.

It's a bit of a mixed bag there.  Dodging into/out of the Rift is awesome, his new 2 is mostly awesome (freezing allied gunfire opens up new trolling, accidental or on purpose), but having an only AoE Banish and his new 3 both look like very large mistakes in the making.

But on a lighter note, it's gonna be very fun to set up all sorts of mayhem with his ability to freeze time.  Despite having some very notable concerns, I'm curious about how it'll feel in play.

[Rythiman]

11 minutes ago, Urlan said:

Lets hope its appealing to players that already liked Limbo as is.

I main limbo and I think the rework looks awesome so far. If you already are pretty good with limbo you will be amazing with him now. Old strategies still work but you can form new strategies with him now.

 

At the end of a defense mission I like to banish the last target and watch my squad try to kill it. Obviously not so long as to be obnoxious, just to have some fun for about 10 seconds.

Now I can see myself putting the last enemy in stasis and unloading my entire clip from both my primary and secondary and directing all the bullets at his face before deactivating stasis. That way the rest of my squad can enjoy delaying the last enemy's death as much as I do.

Edited February 18, 2017 by Rythiman

[(PSN)HaterReplicator]

Hmm... Given the right situation, combination, Limbo's name can be added to list of Frames to lock down a map.

[Azamagon]

27 minutes ago, Bobtm said:

-snip-

Huh... I knew most of that, and I have similar concerns.

But the Banish only bringing stuff into the plane you are in... that is ANOTHER worry. What about that time you send an enemy inside the Rift, you notice you can't handle it and want to unbanish it again? Then you have to go OUT of the Rift, potentially getting killed by other enemies, while trying to unrift the first target. How... clunky and irritating!

If Banish was like this:
* Tapcast is single target, and reverses the target's current state.
* Holdcast is AoE, and puts all target's in the same state Limbo is in.

This gives you everything you need. Single target is precise and easy to manipulate, rift-wise. AoE is easy for multikililng and such, but it requires Limbo to jump more back and forth with his own state. Both have clear ups and downs.

Everything else I agreed with though. Please check my ideas down here (and add the Banish-thought from above):

6 hours ago, Azamagon said:

From what we have heard about Limbo, I'm personally very interested about his rework (as the ideas have potential), but not unexpectedly, there seems to be a ton of dangerous flaws added in it.

Let's carefully and constructively inspect each ability, and then delve into how they could be finetuned to perfection!

 

Passive: With a small tweak, I'd love this passive. But as it is, it has some issues.

The excuse was "Limbo has difficulties picking up loot". That's not really being helped by this passive, as now not only you STILL have to toggle in/out of the Rift, now you HAVE to move as well! So, it adds more issues than helps, in that regard.
Also, LIMBO is less concerned about loot than teammates (especially if you use Carrier), as he better control when he wants to pick it up. His teammates on the other hand...
Further, he will have less parkourability, at least without affecting his Rift-state. I bet we'd get used to this though, so this doesn't concern me much personally.

That said, the rework does allow more abilities to be different, which I really like. The passive can work, but it does require a simple addition:

CHANGES: Standing still and pressing roll = Shifting in/out of the Rift, WITHOUT dashing. If you wanna dash, you have to move at the same time. Now he can still be a good sniper, among other stuff he already was good at when he had Rift Walk. It simply adds options, which is always good.

 

Banish: Plainly making it AoE is actually NOT a good idea, as that would remove a big and important part of his toolkit: Precision. This precision is what makes him so useful for singling out dangerous foes to 1vs1 them, or to aid Rescue targets (etc) with little concerns. AoE Banish as an OPTION, that would be great, no doubt.

CHANGES: Tap for single cast, Hold for AoE cast. Again, options are always good. Just make sure that Limbo is unaffected by the AoE Banish. If he wants to go out, he has to do so by choice with his new "roll".

 

Stasis: I like the premise, but not the heap of drawbacks and trolling power. Having a drawback sounds fitting (fits his Lore, and as a balancing to a VERY potent CC), but the suggested "kick Limbo out of the Rift for a duration" sounds like a really sadistic and overblown penalty. And the ability to FURTHER reduce your teammates' potency is not cool, obviously.

CHANGES: Freeze enemies and their projectiles, but not ALLIED projectiles (or their activity, ofc). As for the penalty, speed up how quickly the abiliy fades the more enemies are caught (don't count enemy projectiles though, that's just too much), but remove the "kick out Limbo out of Rift for a duration"-penalty entirely. This means you still have to be careful with how many enemies you control, but not with such extreme risk.

 

Rift Surge: Death-explosions sound nice, as it seems to add a tool in Limbo's kit to do stuff (partially) cross-rift. But random and uncontrollable mini-cataclysms? That is just something that is gonna get Limbo players killed, even good ones, as it can be out of their control after all. Especially so if you consider the current Stasis-penalties (less so if Stasis changed as suggested, but it would still carry potential issues).

CHANGES: Scrap the minicataclysms entirely, they are just too dangerous and random.
Mechanically, make the ability an Accelerant-esque cast: Make it a recastable ability with enemies in the castradius being debuffed (causing them to explode on death) and grants Limbo a selfbuff (he deals more damage whenever he attacks from inside the Rift). Simple, controllable, useful. It keeps his old tool (enhanced damage), while adding something that works both from any side of the rift and to any side of the rift (death explosions).

 

Cataclysm: Adding a stun is neat and all, making it more workable and less risky, but this ability can have so much more fun potency and control in it. I'll just go straight to the suggested changes.

CHANGES: Multiple ideas here:
* Don't allow enemies to exit the sphere by themselves (no hard-CC when touching the shrinking walls though).
* Enemies in Cataclysm hurt by Banish will be expelled violently with ragdoll. This gives some actual distinct use between the AoE they both can provide, and further  adds more fine control to his kit.
* Holdcast it when active to quickly shrink the sphere's size manually. Going for low power range shouldn't feel so "necessary" (although, Stasis helps with that a big bunch too, I bet).

 

Rift in general - The Rift still has a lot of trolling power. Lots of its irritating issues has been left unchanged, as far as we know.

CHANGES: Multiple suggestions
* Allow looting, picking up and carrying of any items cross-rift. I mean, you can still hold your weapons, no? Why not loot etc? Logic explanation: You and your allies can "banish" small stuff that you touch. Enemies can't affect stuff across the Rift, because they aren't using Warframes.
* Possibly also allow allies and Limbo to hack when in the Rift via Banish, but if doing so, the player greatly speeds up the remaining Rift-duration (meaning, reducing the time you have left to stay in the Rift). This reduces lots of irritation for the whole team, but it still has downsides as you will not being protected for as long. I mean, using invisibility allows you to (generally) more safely hack than what the Rift would, so why not, right?
Note: If hacking is done inside a Cataclysm-sphere though, there doesn't need to be any duration-penalties, as enemies can still come in and hurt you.

 

I think this will solve most issues with the rework, along with old problems too.

Thoughts and opinions?

 

[(PSN)mr_chainsaw555]

wait, will rift surge still have the damage buff it always had?

[DxAdder]

Quick Question: Can Limbo Still Banish Other Players ?

 

[MokutoBunshi]

18 hours ago, General_Durandal said:

Are you jelly when you see me rolling?

I'll never stop rolling, especially with how useful it can be.

 

Hey look, he needs to use his 2nd to make his 1st usful now. Garbage.

They didn't need to change his first at all, it already did a knockdown, it worked great.

 

Yeah, of course, but they said if there are too many things being stopped the power turns off,

and you can't use your rift powers, (all his powers) for a time.

 

Hey, he needs to use his 2nd to make his ULTIMATE POWER useful. Garbage.

At least the enemies that enter the cataclysm get staggered for 2 seconds, giving you plenty of time to... oh, he's dead.

Right, because limbo is super squishy.

 

With this build limbo is actually less useful in a sortie, at least for the long run.

Sure, he'll be able to stop projectiles and enemies inside the rift with his 2nd,

but that's not going to stop the enemies having tons are health.

You're going to have to start time to hurt the enemies, and in that time you'll die.

Especially with the short range.

It's almost self defeating.

Here is a glimpse at all his powers being used effectively in a sortie.

Cataclysm is on, Surge is on, Rift Stop is on, limbo is riftwalking,

X enemies and projectiles inside the cataclysm are stopped, player projectiles too.

These enemies are level 100, and have tons of health.

 

Failure one,

Someone in the group has a autofire weapon, and quickly exceeds the stop limit,

limbo's powers are all turned off and he can't use them for a while.

Limbo dies.

 

Failure two,

The cataclysm is full, and limbo has set up as many projectiles as he can without maxing and braking the rift.

He starts time so his projectiles can hit enemies. They barely take any damage and kill limbo.

 

Failure three,

Limbo spams enemies with his melee weapon in the cataclysm,

limbo will need to spam melee for a pretty long time on each enemy.

if they take damage on hit, he'll still need to hit them a lot,

giving plenty of time for more enemies to show up, and possible exceed the limit and break the rift.

Leaving limbo worthless and dead.

 

Failure four,

Limbo spams enemies with his melee weapon in the cataclysm,

if they take damage on time restart, he'll need to start time for the damage to take effect,

since you can't tell how much damage you dealt overall, the amount would likely not be enough and they'd kill limbo.

 

Limbo needs more CC than a 2 second stager if he's going to survive level 100 missions.

You make good points... but with #4 in the video we saw that you CAN melee damage before time resumes.

I agree with you though about your other 3 points. I said before that I hoped this wasn't the final form of the rework.

 

]\'[

[Lalaef]

I have two suggestions.

 

Rename "Stasis" to "The World".

Augment to "Stasis" or "The World" should stop time on whole map, not just the rift.

 

With these, Limbo will be as best as he can possibly be and I will love DE forever.

[SeaUrchins]

Unless they change the way objects work inside rift I don't see this rework solving Limbo problems, rather changing his skills to inherit them. Limbo's main problem is that he cannot drag objects into the rift: enemies can enter cataclysm, but the loot they drop inside the cataclysm bubble remains unpickable as it counts in another realm. For the same reason Limbo is uncapable to protect the core in hijack missions.

Limbo should be able to put objects inside rift using cataclysm: loot inside cataclysm sphere should be pickable and even consoles should be made hackable if placed inside cataclysm. If these current inconsistencies of rift mechanic aren't addressed, Limbo will remain as crippled as he is now.

[(PSN)TONI__RIBEIRO]

8 minutes ago, Lalaef said:

I have two suggestions.

 

Rename "Stasis" to "The World".

Augment to "Stasis" or "The World" should stop time on whole map, not just the rift.

 

With these, Limbo will be as best as he can possibly be and I will love DE forever.

And he needs a Jojo's bizarre adventure inspired deluxe skin.