Major Mechanic Ignored?!?! : "Pseudo-Endgame", Encouragement and Discussion

[DrBorris]

8 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Deathstroke52dc said:

Listen, I'm not suggesting we force the entire population to participate in end game. I'm suggesting we account for those already doing it and give them some recognition. It would be a great change, as then less "endgame" content would become non-viable due to nerfs caused by complaints that are generated by people that don't even play "endgame". The fact of the matter is that endurance runners are not accounted for. We don't receive any observation when a rework is made. And often the rework will cause items to remain relatively the same until the scaling is accounted for. Basically, none of the admins account for late game use when they rework something. I'm trying to make it so that they are. Give endurance runners more options.

But what's the recognition? And what is the point of "end-game" once you have that recognition? This brings you right back to square one. End game is an activity when you have basically completed the game and gives you something to do with all of your toys. Either you have to make whatever "recognition" end-game provides be insanely grindy (and note that there are those that have all of the Arcanes, so even Trial level grind has a limit) as to make sure it is not a one and done or you have to get more creative. This has nothing to do with the end-game itself but rather why you are playing it, no point in all designed end-game if there is no reason to ever go that far.

 

And I am not sure where I insinuated that you insinuated that you wanted to force the entire population into end-game.

Edited March 16, 2017 by DrBorris

[NeithanDiniem]

59 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Deathstroke52dc said:

Listen, I'm not suggesting we force the entire population to participate in end game. I'm suggesting we account for those already doing it and give them some recognition. It would be a great change, as then less "endgame" content would become non-viable due to nerfs caused by complaints that are generated by people that don't even play "endgame". The fact of the matter is that endurance runners are not accounted for. We don't receive any observation when a rework is made. And often the rework will cause items to remain relatively the same until the scaling is accounted for. Basically, none of the admins account for late game use when they rework something. I'm trying to make it so that they are. Give endurance runners more options.

The problem is your recognition for endgame for the few would require a change of the core mechanics of the game that would change the way the game is played for everyone. Changing the scaling in the game so endurance runs can go on further is not increasing endgame, it is providing more power to the players. That power is defined in Warframe through the mods, which we are already getting more of to the detriment to the balance of the game. The Devs themselves have already stated that the number of mods in the game are far too many, and that the large number of mods is why making changes to the game balance to be better is so difficult. Making more options is already being done with rebalancing frames to have more inter-skill synergy and more advanced skills, alongside new weapons, Warframes, enemies, tilesets, quests, mechanics, and mission types. These all add to the options you have for playing, options where higher leveled content can happen on, and options for where to play to get more varieties of game content. New quests and mechanics add to the game to flesh out more and more options, as well as add large expansions to the game for content, making more areas that can then become part of the "endgame"

Basically DE is already doing what you are asking for, without destroying the gameplay for all players, and it just isn't happening fast enough for you, or you are not regarding the content they add as endgame enough. The game is going to scale enemies, and they are going to get harder and harder until you are forced out. It is inevitable and impossible to change that without destroying a foundational pillar of the game. The existing high level content that is designed to challenge players people are ripping through like mad, only for a good number of them to complain that it isnt enough. This is no different from any other PvE game, as mentioned above. People are impatient. People are greedy. This will always cause these kinds of issues. It too is unavoidable in video game design. A perfect game does not exist, you cannot please every player 100% because there will always be someone that find some flaw with the game that does not adhere to their personal preferences. That does not mean then that the game should seek out those individual's preferences and enforce them on everyone else.

Lastly, since such a small percentage of the community would be a part of your "endgame" players, DE tailoring changes for them specifically would be making the rest of the game less accessible or less enjoyable for people not in that group. Very few players seek to go for long term endurance runs, so any effort put into making those even more viable would be effort spent on a tiny fraction of the community, instead of spending it on a huge majority of it. Until more people are a part of that group, making changes specific for it would be poor business.

[Krion112]

37 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Deathstroke52dc said:

In his case, Orthogonal and Linear design do not overshadow each other to the extent that they are incompatible.

In this case, and in all cases, they do. Certain system designs are exclusive to them, and when you force them together, one inevitably overshadows the other. I'll illustrate this in just a moment.

 

37 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Deathstroke52dc said:

Balancing the Orthogonal components so that they all scale equally, or at an average rate together, regardless of their fall off point, is a in fact a combination of the two things. This would rely, of course that the scaling system applied to all variables. 

It's literally the core concept of Orthogonal design that its elements don't scale. That's the core reason why these two designs are incompatible; Orthogonal is all behaviors and nuance, whereas linear is all stats and scale.

Let me impart to you why you can't make an Orthogonal game progress linearly: take an Assault Rifle and Sniper. The Assault Rifle deals about 8-10 Damage and is designed to counter the Sniper, per the Orthogonal Balance Matrix (ie, the Assault Rifle can put pressure on and is more flexible than the Sniper). The Sniper deals 200 Damage, and is designed to counter the Shotgun (ie, it far out ranges and out damages the Shotgun).

Say now we put on a linear progression, and with each level, the stats of a weapon is multiplied upwards. At about rank 10, the Assault Rifle can now deal 40-50 Damage, and the Sniper can deal 1000 Damage. Now the Assault Rifle overshadows both the Sniper and the Shotgun.

No matter how high of damage you give the Shotgun or Sniper, they will never scale like the Assault Rifle. And the reason being is they're both single target weapons; no matter how much damage you give them, they will never kill more than one enemy within a short succession. You could put 1 million damage on a Sniper rifle, and a 100 damage Assault Rifle would still be more convenient and more useful because it could more quickly spread that damage across multiple targets in a faster succession.

And, to bring the Shotgun into the equation, eventually you'd make it overshadow the Sniper, as doing enough damage will cause it to overcome its normal range issues.

Doesn't any of that sound familiar? Because Warframe has those issues already. And then, because the Sniper doesn't have a place, no one uses it, and congratulations, the Orthogonal game design has broken, because if the Sniper doesn't have a place, you're not upholding Orthogonal balance. If at any point you call a piece of equipment mastery fodder, you admit that the Orthogonal side is broken, which proves that the two systems don't mesh together.

The linear power scaling effect overshadows the behavioral nuance and role-based nature of the orthogonal design.

So no, you can't use them together. And, I'm sorry, but no; everywhere that Warframe tries to utilize both linear and orthogonal design together is flawed. There's not a single example where combined linear and orthogonal design is actually positive for Warframe as a whole.

 

28 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Deathstroke52dc said:

Lol. I feel like you guys are coming at me just for the fun of shutting me down. What I'm suggesting isn't as big or dramatic as you two would propose. It's a very simple social recognition.

I'd just like to say that progression can reward both options AND power. And it's really not that complicated. And from where the game is right now, a little linear accountablity would still allow for preservation of Orthogonal factors.

Again, in the end it's about pleasing the community. I'm searching for ways to comply to all reasonable parties. What I'm trying to do is put a bigger emphasis on the scaling system so that there are more options for everyone.

Kind of a low blow; like as though I just like gallivanting through the forums looking to crush peoples' ideas.

As my example above illustrates, you can't grow both in options and power. You can only go one or the other, as many of Warframe's flaws already vividly illustrate. It's really not that complicated to understand why.

[(XBOX)Deathstroke52dc]

3 minutes ago, Momaw said:

The fact that Covert Lethality has the exact same effect on enemies is the problem.

You can't have any variation in enemy strength or enemy importance if you can script kill them. The only distinction you can make is "Can I Covert them, or not", and then by necessity the game becomes Rock Paper Scissors with a snarl of weird restrictions.  People violently hate the idea of eximus units that you have to shoot the weak points off but they are a DIRECT response to over-powerful players that trivialize every encounter with nonsense like Covert Letahlity.  What's the point of even having enemy levels at all, if you're going to do the same thing to kill them regardless if they are level 10 or level 1000?  And you immediately make obsolete any weapon that cannot perform script kills because obviously infinite DPS trumps not-infinite DPS.  And you close off any possibility of any sidegrades of Covert Lethality that don't provide script kills, because any weapon that isn't as powerful is a novelty.

It's not the only thing that's broken in your idea of "Endurance". But it's an example of one.

 

See that's the problem. The problems you mention would actully be resolved upon a proper re-balancing of the system to fit the scaling system more efficiently. My idea of reform calls for MORE options. Not just a bunch of variations of covert lethality, if you will. And actually, if you're making the complaint that you  don't enjoy the repetitive nature of covert lethality, that is still an opinion and NO something to enough to shut down other opinions with. 

In regards to the eximus units with weakpoints, I cannot help but laugh. The idea to make the game more difficult, on that extent, was due to someone probably not unlike yourself. A person who didn't understand endgame territory and felt that they were at a disadvantage because their setup wasn't sufficient. There was another answer to the situation: buff other setups so others could experience better, diverse gameplay. But that didn't happen because no one came from the endgame perspective. And furthermore, the problem still exists. Covertlethality will still do the same thing it always did and the other stuff will still fall short. In fact, the eximus thing doesn't even anything out. It just slows both sides down. The idea was and still is rushed and not well thought out. It affects this issue we're talking about so little that it's almost irrelevant. Even if it was the counter to meta utilities.

Lastly, regarding your second last sentence-_- That's exactly what I'm trying to inspire being fixed. And let's face it: when you say "sidegrade, that just means nerf. What I'm suggesting, is that there be less "novelties" and less nerfing of items to try to even things out. Also, define "script kill". If you mean "consistently kills stuff", then I guess everything should be off limits. The only area that items need to be improved is in their endgame performance. 

[(XBOX)Deathstroke52dc]

11 minutes ago, NeithanDiniem said:

The problem is your recognition for endgame for the few would require a change of the core mechanics of the game that would change the way the game is played for everyone. Changing the scaling in the game so endurance runs can go on further is not increasing endgame, it is providing more power to the players. That power is defined in Warframe through the mods, which we are already getting more of to the detriment to the balance of the game. The Devs themselves have already stated that the number of mods in the game are far too many, and that the large number of mods is why making changes to the game balance to be better is so difficult. Making more options is already being done with rebalancing frames to have more inter-skill synergy and more advanced skills, alongside new weapons, Warframes, enemies, tilesets, quests, mechanics, and mission types. These all add to the options you have for playing, options where higher leveled content can happen on, and options for where to play to get more varieties of game content. New quests and mechanics add to the game to flesh out more and more options, as well as add large expansions to the game for content, making more areas that can then become part of the "endgame"

Basically DE is already doing what you are asking for, without destroying the gameplay for all players, and it just isn't happening fast enough for you, or you are not regarding the content they add as endgame enough. The game is going to scale enemies, and they are going to get harder and harder until you are forced out. It is inevitable and impossible to change that without destroying a foundational pillar of the game. The existing high level content that is designed to challenge players people are ripping through like mad, only for a good number of them to complain that it isnt enough. This is no different from any other PvE game, as mentioned above. People are impatient. People are greedy. This will always cause these kinds of issues. It too is unavoidable in video game design. A perfect game does not exist, you cannot please every player 100% because there will always be someone that find some flaw with the game that does not adhere to their personal preferences. That does not mean then that the game should seek out those individual's preferences and enforce them on everyone else.

Lastly, since such a small percentage of the community would be a part of your "endgame" players, DE tailoring changes for them specifically would be making the rest of the game less accessible or less enjoyable for people not in that group. Very few players seek to go for long term endurance runs, so any effort put into making those even more viable would be effort spent on a tiny fraction of the community, instead of spending it on a huge majority of it. Until more people are a part of that group, making changes specific for it would be poor business.

UUUUUUGGGGGHHHH!!!! I said nothing about extending endgame!!!!! AND NO!! No core mechanics would have to be rewoked. The point of all this is to prevent future reworks from removing the few end game options we have left and hope fully adding some more in the future. A very basic example would be to buff a crappy weapon instead of nerfing one that is effective in endgame. No core mechanics changed.

That's not even the point. The end goal of the entire suggestion is simply to give endurance players a little bit less of the short straws. That is all.

[NeithanDiniem]

59 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Deathstroke52dc said:

UUUUUUGGGGGHHHH!!!! I said nothing about extending endgame!!!!! AND NO!! No core mechanics would have to be rewoked. The point of all this is to prevent future reworks from removing the few end game options we have left and hope fully adding some more in the future. A very basic example would be to buff a crappy weapon instead of nerfing one that is effective in endgame. No core mechanics changed.

That's not even the point. The end goal of the entire suggestion is simply to give endurance players a little bit less of the short straws. That is all.

You very prelude to this entire discussion is making endurance runs more viable as a form of endgame for those that enjoy endurance runs, That is extending endgame, intrinsically. You have contradicted yourself. If you alter even a single digit in scaling, you have altered it for the core of the game. If you buff a weapon, you have effectively altered the gameplay experience for everyone because it becomes more powerful than something else and thus becomes something more desirable than another weapon, making the same problem Covert Lethality gives in a highly efficient method of killing enemies.

To your above comment. Sidegrades are not nerfs. A sidegrade is something equally as powerful but different, the exact thing you are calling for. You have again contradicted yourself. You don't even seem to understand the words you are speaking. A sidegrade does absolutely nothing to the stats of other weapons. Its a separate entity. And if something is a sidegrade of one of the endgame viable weapons, you now have more options, the exact thing you are asking for. "Scripted kills" are when you do an action and enemy dies, guaranteed. Covert Lethality is a scripted kill. You use the mod correctly, target dies, guaranteed. Level of enemy, resistances, weapon strength doesn't matter. It dies. This is the exact reason your problem exists, there is nothing more efficient at killing than that for a melee mod. The only way to make it not a problem is to delete it entirely from the game, forcing people to power down back to the weapons and the mods that we have and return to something that enforces options.

[NeithanDiniem]

1 hour ago, (Xbox One)Deathstroke52dc said:

The point of all this is to prevent future reworks from removing the few end game options we have left and hope fully adding some more in the future.

To extend on this specifically, DE has clearly, repeatedly stated that the game is designed to FORCE you out. Long term endurance runs is not how DE intends players to play the game. That is why they do not cater to that particular game play style. They will not extend upon it because in doing so it ruins the intended gameplay. So really this is an issue of you enjoying something not intended, and DE hasn't been expanding on it. If it is not intended, then players should not get comfortable with it because as practically every hotfix or update shows us, unintended aspects of the game rapidly change. Aspects can evolve as the game evolves as well, and they fall out of the picture and no longer fit with the game direction, bringing about changes and alterations to old-standing content. Players need to pay attention to what DE has repeatedly stated on what is intended and pay attention to where it is going and they will find they will be far less surprised with changes to the game.

Edited March 16, 2017 by NeithanDiniem

[(XBOX)Deathstroke52dc]

25 minutes ago, Krion112 said:

In this case, and in all cases, they do. Certain system designs are exclusive to them, and when you force them together, one inevitably overshadows the other. I'll illustrate this in just a moment.

 

It's literally the core concept of Orthogonal design that its elements don't scale. That's the core reason why these two designs are incompatible; Orthogonal is all behaviors and nuance, whereas linear is all stats and scale.

Let me impart to you why you can't make an Orthogonal game progress linearly: take an Assault Rifle and Sniper. The Assault Rifle deals about 8-10 Damage and is designed to counter the Sniper, per the Orthogonal Balance Matrix (ie, the Assault Rifle can put pressure on and is more flexible than the Sniper). The Sniper deals 200 Damage, and is designed to counter the Shotgun (ie, it far out ranges and out damages the Shotgun).

Say now we put on a linear progression, and with each level, the stats of a weapon is multiplied upwards. At about rank 10, the Assault Rifle can now deal 40-50 Damage, and the Sniper can deal 1000 Damage. Now the Assault Rifle overshadows both the Sniper and the Shotgun.

No matter how high of damage you give the Shotgun or Sniper, they will never scale like the Assault Rifle. And the reason being is they're both single target weapons; no matter how much damage you give them, they will never kill more than one enemy within a short succession. You could put 1 million damage on a Sniper rifle, and a 100 damage Assault Rifle would still be more convenient and more useful because it could more quickly spread that damage across multiple targets in a faster succession.

And, to bring the Shotgun into the equation, eventually you'd make it overshadow the Sniper, as doing enough damage will cause it to overcome its normal range issues.

Doesn't any of that sound familiar? Because Warframe has those issues already. And then, because the Sniper doesn't have a place, no one uses it, and congratulations, the Orthogonal game design has broken, because if the Sniper doesn't have a place, you're not upholding Orthogonal balance. If at any point you call a piece of equipment mastery fodder, you admit that the Orthogonal side is broken, which proves that the two systems don't mesh together.

The linear power scaling effect overshadows the behavioral nuance and role-based nature of the orthogonal design.

So no, you can't use them together. And, I'm sorry, but no; everywhere that Warframe tries to utilize both linear and orthogonal design together is flawed. There's not a single example where combined linear and orthogonal design is actually positive for Warframe as a whole.

 

Kind of a low blow; like as though I just like gallivanting through the forums looking to crush peoples' ideas.

As my example above illustrates, you can't grow both in options and power. You can only go one or the other, as many of Warframe's flaws already vividly illustrate. It's really not that complicated to understand why.

There are four flaws regarding the example above.

1)One the Orthogonal factors regarding the enemies and friendlies wielding those weapons are not presented a.k.a their durability, resistance, speed, etc, awareness, etc. 

2)The rate at which each item scales isn't exactly the same (to HELP account for their differences). They would scale differently based on their traits (not just damage) to an extent that they would function more equally. (Which is easier to accomplish than you might think).

3) Yes, balancing Orthogonal and linear designs is realistically impossible, which is why I didn't EVER suggest that Warframe attempt to take that path. The amount of work that would require something of that scale of difficulty isn't even comprehensible.

4) Player preference in regards to Warframe's "superhero mechanic". Saying thatbecause you are the most powerful being (orthogonally and/or linearly) your interaction with enemies doesn't need to be as even (as opposed to pvp) and player preference might dictate that a person could still use the sniper rifle or shotgun because it's stil effective and they enjoy it more than the assault rifle.

 

And I'm sorry if I sounded like an a$% when I mentioned feeling attacked. Nothing you've said has been illogical, subjectively biased,or arrogant, so for that I apologize/

Edited March 16, 2017 by (XB1)Deathstroke52dc

[[DE]Momaw]

2 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Deathstroke52dc said:

The point of all this is to prevent future reworks from removing the few end game options we have left

It seems necessary to point out again that the "end game" you describe is a player idea, not a DE one.  Which seems more likely to you:   That they built up the game so that 95% of the equipment and features are not useful past level 100 on purpose? Or that the 5% of equipment and features which work well past level 100 are more powerful than intended?

You seem terrified that DE is going to "kill the end game"....when in reality all they're doing is trying to more clearly define it.  There will always be a gun that is the strongest, there will always be a team composition that is the laziest. The only thing that will change is that you will reach the limits of what is possible in a couple of hours, rather than playing an entire day using the same tactics from start to finish and give up in the end because you're too tired.  The high score in the recent event was 12000 points, and I guarantee you they didn't stop because the game was getting any more difficult.  You want abilities and weapons and tactics that are "level agnostic" so that everything is equally viable... which is an interesting idea, for a different game, that is designed from the ground up to support it. And in that game, there would be some other kind of escalation to make the game more difficult over time.

[(XBOX)Deathstroke52dc]

10 minutes ago, NeithanDiniem said:

You very prelude to this entire discussion is making endurance runs more viable as a form of endgame for those that enjoy endurance runs, That is extending endgame, intrinsically. You have contradicted yourself. If you alter even a single digit in scaling, you have altered it for the core of the game. If you buff a weapon, you have effectively altered the gameplay experience for everyone because it becomes more powerful than something else and thus becomes something more desirable than another weapon, making the same problem Covert Lethality gives in a highly efficient method of killing enemies.

To your above comment. Sidegrades are not nerfs. A sidegrade is something equally as powerful but different, the exact thing you are calling for. You have again contradicted yourself. You don't even seem to understand the words you are speaking. A sidegrade does absolutely nothing to the stats of other weapons. Its a separate entity. And if something is a sidegrade of one of the endgame viable weapons, you now have more options, the exact thing you are asking for. "Scripted kills" are when you do an action and enemy dies, guaranteed. Covert Lethality is a scripted kill. You use the mod correctly, target dies, guaranteed. Level of enemy, resistances, weapon strength doesn't matter. It dies. This is the exact reason your problem exists, there is nothing more efficient at killing than that for a melee mod. The only way to make it not a problem is to delete it entirely from the game, forcing people to power down back to the weapons and the mods that we have and return to something that enforces options.

Yes, I do prelude a world of endgame, because I rarely do other things at this point, but I do not mean to presume that it is part of my suggestion. I only want the admins and the community to observe their actions in light of those of us that use endgame solutions. It's just a side hope of mine that running endurance will become more diverse and present new horizons. I like the intensity of the endgame environment and I'd like to see it grow. But I do not mean to include it in my suggestion. That's just my mind wandering. 

 What you mentioned above regarding the buffing of a weapon is true; When you buff something, it becomes more desirable than other items. However, that doesn't mean that it will create a problem. And that is ALSO true of a sidegrade (if you could give me an example of a sidegrade, I would appreciate it). If something is introduced that is equally powerful to a mechanic such as Covert Lethality, it too would be more desirable than other items. That is inevitable and therefore not be considered an issue. The issue is when it becomes desirable because its function is the only one of its kind. But in this case, not only does covert lethality have multiple combos of approach (weapons and frames) but it would be difficult to design a sidegrade that would function similarly, yet be different.

You're assuming that covert Lethality is a problem because it performs scripted kills (and sorry about the earlier contradiction, as I was unsure as to the definition of "script killing"). But is that really a problem? There are limitations to its abilities via Orthogonal parameters such as delivery, range, and applicable weapons.

Anyways. The example is beside the point. Now that I have a better understanding of your what a sidegrade is, I can say that it isn't conflicting with my suggested course of action. So, if it is what I've been led to believe, it seems like a good idea.

[(XBOX)Deathstroke52dc]

22 minutes ago, NeithanDiniem said:

To extend on this specifically, DE has clearly, repeatedly stated that the game is designed to FORCE you out. Long term endurance runs is not how DE intends players to play the game. That is why they do not cater to that particular game play style. They will not extend upon it because in doing so it ruins the intended gameplay. So really this is an issue of you enjoying something not intended, and DE hasn't been expanding on it. If it is not intended, then players should not get comfortable with it because as practically every hotfix or update shows us, unintended aspects of the game rapidly change. Aspects can evolve as the game evolves as well, and they fall out of the picture and no longer fit with the game direction, bringing about changes and alterations to old-standing content. Players need to pay attention to what DE has repeatedly stated on what is intended and pay attention to where it is going and they will find they will be far less surprised with changes to the game.

I'm going to have to disagree with you on that. Like all business, the consumer comes first. And therefore, feedback from the consumer drives its modification, to a degree. DE has not stated that endurance runs are an unintended way of playing the game and the way corrosive and armor stripping works is testimony to that. And DE has not made any decision to avoid extending endurance gameplay. And the idea of removing such extended gameplay has no purpose other than to remove opportunity and freedom from the consumers hands. There is no instance in which the presence of endurance runs ruins intended gameplay because it was designed to scale infinitely from square one and it s such a large mechanic of the game. Additionally, DE hasn't been expanding on it simply because a large portion of players do not participate far into it. And for that matter, neither does DE. Which is why I want them to understand where players that do so come from, so tat they might provide room for expansion. There is no ruining of intended gameplay. The only gameplay that can easily be ruined is endgame gameplay because of the limited options that are presented to do it.

And regardless of whether or not people pay attention to DE, they will want change and they will ask for change.

It doesn't seem to me that you have legitimate argument against endurance play, only that you think that it wasn't intended and therefor shouldn't be looked into.

[(XBOX)Deathstroke52dc]

33 minutes ago, Momaw said:

It seems necessary to point out again that the "end game" you describe is a player idea, not a DE one.  Which seems more likely to you:   That they built up the game so that 95% of the equipment and features are not useful past level 100 on purpose? Or that the 5% of equipment and features which work well past level 100 are more powerful than intended?

You seem terrified that DE is going to "kill the end game"....when in reality all they're doing is trying to more clearly define it.  There will always be a gun that is the strongest, there will always be a team composition that is the laziest. The only thing that will change is that you will reach the limits of what is possible in a couple of hours, rather than playing an entire day using the same tactics from start to finish and give up in the end because you're too tired.  The high score in the recent event was 12000 points, and I guarantee you they didn't stop because the game was getting any more difficult.  You want abilities and weapons and tactics that are "level agnostic" so that everything is equally viable... which is an interesting idea, for a different game, that is designed from the ground up to support it. And in that game, there would be some other kind of escalation to make the game more difficult over time.

Fair point. And whichever way DE takes it, I'll still play warframe. And yes, I do believe that it was unintended that the majority of weapons are only efficient up to level 100. But DE is always pressing new content and there are always a plethora of bugs and fixes that follow. Warframe is an ever-evolving game. I'm sure that when they first started up, there was no endgame. That being said, yes, endgame is a player created theme. But there were plenty of other unintended mechanics from the beginning that ended up being utilized in the grand scheme of things. Maybe not as big as infinite scaling, but why see it as an obstacle, something in the way. I see it as opportunity for adventure, exploration, and experimentation. That's the difference. To the people that do endurance runs, there's a satisfaction to leaving a game after reaching your own limit and not just the game's. Even if your limit is boredom, you still get that sense of accomplishment that your capacity to push forward is still growing. And no, I don't want everything to scale equally so that everything is viable in endgame. That WOULD be completely different game. What I wan is just a few modifications and recognition for endgame as a practiced thing.

 

Really though. Thank you so much for your conversation. It was a pleasure and I know I've learned something.

[(XBOX)Slimm qp ReapeR]

4 hours ago, (Xbox One)Deathstroke52dc said:

Listen, I'm not suggesting we force the entire population to participate in end game. I'm suggesting we account for those already doing it and give them some recognition. It would be a great change, as then less "endgame" content would become non-viable due to nerfs caused by complaints that are generated by people that don't even play "endgame". The fact of the matter is that endurance runners are not accounted for. We don't receive any observation when a rework is made. And often the rework will cause items to remain relatively the same until the scaling is accounted for. Basically, none of the admins account for late game use when they rework something. I'm trying to make it so that they are. Give endurance runners more options.

Bro I understand where you're coming from don't worry. I think all in all what you're trying to say is that endless missions and being rewarded for lasting in those mission types is an avenue that should be ventured as there is a percentage of players who enjoy this type of play style. 

I fail to see where this would ruin the game as technically we did kinda have this type of endless runs for rewards in the form of the old void. Oh ya know, where you were rewarded with a primed part for every rotation in an endless type void mission. Both sides that are presently opposing each other in this thread would know that THAT didn't ruin the game. In fact, one could definitively argue that the game has suffered since it has been replaced with the relic system but that's neither here nor there atm. There's no need for opposition in here as both sides can have their cake and eat it too as is we have before.

its all about options imo. Having the OPTION to be able to do either or, is a good thing. It can be done. It was done. It can be done again. If you feel you don't want to do endless then you have the option not to do it for whatever reasons you have. No one asked for lunaro but hey it's here to stay and no one really ever plays that lol. I do not see why there can't be endless type missions that reward you for your efforts in lasting the longest.

i do agree though that the rewards for this should not give players any advantage over other players that would force them to have to play endless to get it if it's not what they want to do. (We've all currently seen how that works *cough* pacifist defect *cough* ignis wraith) So yeah keep it cosmetic be it armor, cloaks, emblems, sigils and trophies as well as bragging rights.

Everyone wins in this scenario, no losers.

 

[(XBOX)Slimm qp ReapeR]

I'd also like to add that I think the trigger word here is endgame. Endgame as i see it depends on the player so everyone's definition of it will vary.

As it pertains to warframe, I believe that endgame depends on what your goals at that time and is something that isn't just relegated to one specific aspect of the game. One persons idea of endgame in warframe could be trading to get to a certain amount of plat, or Cred farming to get a certain amount of creds or making a clan with an alliance which we all know, these are all challenging things in their own right, not just endless type missions ya know. So I just wanted to clear that up because I can say as an experienced player though running endurance missions and building towards it may be my version of endgame right now, it could change at the drop of a dime at anytime if I so choose to do so.

[PatternistSlave]

8 hours ago, Momaw said:

The fact that Covert Lethality has the exact same effect on enemies is the problem.

You can't have any variation in enemy strength or enemy importance if you can script kill them. The only distinction you can make is "Can I Covert them, or not", and then by necessity the game becomes Rock Paper Scissors with a snarl of weird restrictions.  People violently hate the idea of eximus units that you have to shoot the weak points off but they are a DIRECT response to over-powerful players that trivialize every encounter with nonsense like Covert Letahlity.  What's the point of even having enemy levels at all, if you're going to do the same thing to kill them regardless if they are level 10 or level 1000?  And you immediately make obsolete any weapon that cannot perform script kills because obviously infinite DPS trumps not-infinite DPS.  And you close off any possibility of any sidegrades of Covert Lethality that don't provide script kills, because any weapon that isn't as powerful is a novelty.

It's not the only thing that's broken in your idea of "Endurance". But it's an example of one.

 

Weapons that are effective on even sortie level content are going to trivialize the starchart and one hit enemies anyway.  The weapon that can do level 30 content is going to trivialize level 5 content.  What difference does it make if you one hit something or one hit something?  You could completely change the game and normalize all levels, but personally I think it's fun to feel real progression and don't find bullet sponges particularly engaging anyway.  All the Eximus change sounded like to me was DE taking an interest in making fighting enemies more interesting.

[(XBOX)Slimm qp ReapeR]

12 hours ago, NeithanDiniem said:

Lastly, since such a small percentage of the community would be a part of your "endgame" players, DE tailoring changes for them specifically would be making the rest of the game less accessible or less enjoyable for people not in that group. Very few players seek to go for long term endurance runs, so any effort put into making those even more viable would be effort spent on a tiny fraction of the community, instead of spending it on a huge majority of it. Until more people are a part of that group, making changes specific for it would be poor business.

I think we can all agree that lunaro was and still remains something that has an even smaller percentage of players that play it (if any players at all) yet DE went as far as making even more levels for it lol. Another example of this is archwing. A very low percentage of the player base (if any at all) the play this mode with most disliking it at its current state yet again DE continued to add to it and actually stated in a devstream not too long ago that they want to implement archwing missions into sorties. Both clearly were poor business choices.

My point here is that if DE wants to push something, they will. With the what I've mentioned above, I see no problem having endurance gaming as another OPTION for players here. And as I've said before and I'll say again from an earlier comment 

6 hours ago, (Xbox One)Slimm qp ReapeR said:

technically we did kinda have this type of endless runs for rewards in the form of the old void. Oh ya know, where you were rewarded with a primed part for every rotation in an endless type void mission. Both sides that are presently opposing each other in this thread would know that THAT didn't ruin the game. In fact, one could definitively argue that the game has suffered since it has been replaced with the relic system but that's neither here nor there atm. There's no need for opposition in here as both sides can have their cake and eat it too as is we have before.

All in all I see this an an opportunity that can be explolored has in all actuality been in the game before. Be it unknowingly or intentional it was there and for what it was, it worked.

Edited March 16, 2017 by (XB1)Slimm qp ReapeR

[(XBOX)Deathstroke52dc]

7 hours ago, (Xbox One)Slimm qp ReapeR said:

Bro I understand where you're coming from don't worry. I think all in all what you're trying to say is that endless missions and being rewarded for lasting in those mission types is an avenue that should be ventured as there is a percentage of players who enjoy this type of play style. 

I fail to see where this would ruin the game as technically we did kinda have this type of endless runs for rewards in the form of the old void. Oh ya know, where you were rewarded with a primed part for every rotation in an endless type void mission. Both sides that are presently opposing each other in this thread would know that THAT didn't ruin the game. In fact, one could definitively argue that the game has suffered since it has been replaced with the relic system but that's neither here nor there atm. There's no need for opposition in here as both sides can have their cake and eat it too as is we have before.

its all about options imo. Having the OPTION to be able to do either or, is a good thing. It can be done. It was done. It can be done again. If you feel you don't want to do endless then you have the option not to do it for whatever reasons you have. No one asked for lunaro but hey it's here to stay and no one really ever plays that lol. I do not see why there can't be endless type missions that reward you for your efforts in lasting the longest.

i do agree though that the rewards for this should not give players any advantage over other players that would force them to have to play endless to get it if it's not what they want to do. (We've all currently seen how that works *cough* pacifist defect *cough* ignis wraith) So yeah keep it cosmetic be it armor, cloaks, emblems, sigils and trophies as well as bragging rights.

Everyone wins in this scenario, no losers.

 

Hey:) Thank you so much for your input and support. I would just really enjoy Warframe's capacity for opportunity to expand just a little bit as far as the players that like doing endurance runs are concerned. If you'll allow me, I'd like to use your comment in the future for reference,. It is straight to the point and positive.

If I could spur a scenario where no one lost at all, that would be my goal.

[(XBOX)Deathstroke52dc]

4 hours ago, PatternistSlave said:

Weapons that are effective on even sortie level content are going to trivialize the starchart and one hit enemies anyway.  The weapon that can do level 30 content is going to trivialize level 5 content.  What difference does it make if you one hit something or one hit something?  You could completely change the game and normalize all levels, but personally I think it's fun to feel real progression and don't find bullet sponges particularly engaging anyway.  All the Eximus change sounded like to me was DE taking an interest in making fighting enemies more interesting.

Exactly what I was trying to observe. Thank you for stating it so clearly. And I particularly feel your comment about progression. And also a good way to highlight that the covert lethality issue is "relative". The best we can do is try to incorporate as many perspectives as possible into an idea, to prevent too much conflict; meeting somewhere in the middle.

[Djego27]

It would probably be easier if you break up the post and be more specific about:

- what abilities you see a issue with for scaling

- what your general guideline would be for scaling of weapons

- what you looking for in Warframes pseudo endgame

- what and why you feel the need for more rewards for people that play that

 

For me, my problem is mostly that the scaling(damage scaling that makes anything one shooting us, being bullet sponges or spawn special units like nullifiers or healers faster then you kill them), frame and weapon balance is not really good what basically makes all high level missions more or less us one shooting the npcs with bigger numbers over them or them one shooting us. The hole "the weapons will fall off" thing is not really that meaningful since most weapons will not before you will only be able to progress with ability stacking and total CC or god mode/stealth/cheat death mechanics.

I in general liked to do a lot of 1h solo survival runs with Ember, what is still the point where you do not get one shot by everything and that puts some stress on you with the damage and mechanics. The problem is that it turns into the one shot kill style very quick at what point it just is a question about bypassing the hole mechanic. I think if a mechanic scales so bad that to reasonable play with it, you need to basically bypass it(like armor with 4 CP) or damage with perma map wide CC or casting snow globe every few seconds to protect a defence target that instantly dies the second it got hit by anything it should be changed.

While I would like a more challenging and rewarding high level balance, it will most likely not really come into the game any time soon, given the people that like it are only a very small minority and it would require very big reworks. Also the weapon and mod power creep is a big issue, to a point where nearly all modern weapons blow with no real effort through all content the 98% of the player base will realistic play. This is very different to like the game was a few years ago, where you had to think a lot about what primary, secondary and melee you use and how to mod them to work in combination with each other good at high levels(like akbronko prime/Tysis for armor removal or ammo efficient high damage weapon like Lex prime\marlok), ammo efficient high damage bow as primary or status shotgun for extra CC? high damage melee for effective life strike through armor reduction, utility melee for movement or a throwing one for ranged life steal(glaive prime is my most used melee for non melee runs for this reason)?. When DE introduced the raid it turned into a massive cheese fest in no time, same with sorti and events. I never did 5h surivival runs, simply because it is exactly the same boring stuff as farming runs back in the day with 4 CP, gmag and speed nova, shooting for 60-90 minutes into a vortex at a dead end room in survival for prime parts and resources and a lot less entertaining compared to doing solo melee runs for over a hour with Ember or Saryn without using cheese like shadow step.

[Xzorn]

I can see from some comments that the typical narrow minded view of "End-game" is still in full force for some.

If you want to Raid then that's your end-game. If you want to do Sorties and farm, there you go. If you want to endurance run, it's there for you. There's no distinct end-game in Warframe and no other player has the right to tell another what "end-game" actually is. It's nothing more than what you decide to do with your time when progression is over.

DE has officially recognized endurance runners as a form of play style and yet their effort to accommodate this play style is almost non-existent. They place all of their changes on a set level bracket (the same level bracket for 3 years now) and disregard the plentiful amount of Power Creep they give us which we would otherwise never need.

They need to consider scaling when they make changes and add new content. This is what bothers me more than the rewards for doing those endurance runs.

 

[(XBOX)Deathstroke52dc]

1 hour ago, Djego27 said:

- what abilities you see a issue with for scaling

- what your general guideline would be for scaling of weapons

- what you looking for in Warframes pseudo endgame

- what and why you feel the need for more rewards for people that play that

Alright, I see your point and I think it would be beneficial to clarify. But before I get into answering your inquires, I would like to clarify something about my request/suggestion. My intention is to leave the specifics alone intentionally, as to leave the final decision to those that would be reviewing the change. My goal is simply for endurance runners to be recognized as part of the equation. To be noticed and accounted for as changes are made. I'm trying to prevent the eventual extinction of endurance runs, which is likely (eventually), as there is not a large number of people doing them. If DE would take into account that there are people that enjoy stretching the limits of Warframe, then content change would be less likely to negatively affect our endurance-type gameplay. As a general example (no to confused as the main issue), if something is modified without taking into account anything past level 100, then the results of the change for people playing under level 100s would be affected normally while it usually makes the affected utility/mechanic useless or exponentially less effective. But again, keep in mind that I am not trying to make "endgame" a standard. I'm simply trying to catalyze it's inclusion to the equation. Here are my answers to the marked inquiries you provided: 

1) Almost every ability has issues with scaling past level 100. The few that do scale are either not damaged based, deal damage in percent form (proportional to enemy health), ignore/counter armor, or effectively increase all damage dealt by the team (Banshee). This does NOT mean they all require a direct damage boost. An EXEMPLARY system in which abilities scale SIGHTLY AND PROPORTIONALLY with enemy levels would effectively even out abilities, to an extent. The statistics would be up to DE.

NOTE: This would most likely only apply to specific warframe abilities and not weapons. And also take note that I do not suggest this. It is only an example.

2) As far as weapons are concerned, I am most definitely suggesting a rework of all weapons. Only SOME of those that are classified in the ranks of high tiers; Mastery Rank 10+ required weapons. This could be quickly solved by assorted buffs, designed and applied by DE. NOT US. And again be reminded that I am trying to spur the consideration of fixes like this. Not suggesting them. I am only giving examples upon request. I am NOT qualified to make specific decisions. 

3) What I look for in Warframe relative to " Pseudo Endgame" (I like that term, by the way. It works well) are three items:

-At least one ability that is an effective means or damaging, controlling, or resisting enemies and enemy progress/functions.

-At least one ability that provides decent synergy with other Warfames. Ex: Effective CC, Buffs (of any sort), or protection.

           Note: Keep in mind that these two items MAY overlap; One ability that possesses two of these traits is a viable option.

-This last one is  preference: Differentiation from other Warframes, whether it be linearly statistical or orthogonal. 

4) The rewards suggestion, THAT I DO RECOMMEND, by the way, is the actual thing I'm getting at. To accomplish that, endurance runners would have to be officially recognized  (as the rewards directly, specifically, and officially affect endurance runners). And further into that theme, more people would be properly aware of "pseudo Endgame" and might increase the number of us that play in it. As a result, the portion of people that play in "Pseudo Endgame" would receive more notice, have more say, and hopefully be accounted for more thoroughly through content changes. The two things, the rewards and public recognition, would support each other.

Also, thank you for your detailed questions and relevant inquiries. I am pleased that you seem interested, one way or another.

Edited March 16, 2017 by (XB1)Deathstroke52dc
Giving thanks.

[(XBOX)Deathstroke52dc]

21 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

I can see from some comments that the typical narrow minded view of "End-game" is still in full force for some.

If you want to Raid then that's your end-game. If you want to do Sorties and farm, there you go. If you want to endurance run, it's there for you. There's no distinct end-game in Warframe and no other player has the right to tell another what "end-game" actually is. It's nothing more than what you decide to do with your time when progression is over.

DE has officially recognized endurance runners as a form of play style and yet their effort to accommodate this play style is almost non-existent. They place all of their changes on a set level bracket (the same level bracket for 3 years now) and disregard the plentiful amount of Power Creep they give us which we would otherwise never need.

They need to consider scaling when they make changes and add new content. This is what bothers me more than the rewards for doing those endurance runs.

 

Xzorn. I am in utter and complete agreement with you on virtually every angle. I know of their recognition of "Pseudo Endgame" players. I simply want that recognition to be a little more intertwined within the game. The reason for this is because the existence of "Pseudo Endgame" has been recognized, it has NOT been properly accounted for in content change. Which I see you have mentioned quite bluntly.

If in-game recognition were made (let's say, for example, by offering more rewards to those who participate in endurance runs), DE would be more inclined to apply content changes with endurance players in mind. 

So yes, I would love to accomplish what you are describing. And in fact the rewards system I have devised is designed to do just that. The trick is, not pushing changes that are big enough to damage the game. If we make a change of this nature, it might be just enough for Warframe (and its community) to account a bit more for the infinite scaling.

But we have to let the Warframe (and its community) community do it on its own. This more of an awareness and encouragement project than anything else. 

Be sure to spread this idea to as many people as you can and suggest they do the same. 

[(XBOX)Slimm qp ReapeR]

35 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

I can see from some comments that the typical narrow minded view of "End-game" is still in full force for some.

If you want to Raid then that's your end-game. If you want to do Sorties and farm, there you go. If you want to endurance run, it's there for you. There's no distinct end-game in Warframe and no other player has the right to tell another what "end-game" actually is. It's nothing more than what you decide to do with your time when progression is over.

DE has officially recognized endurance runners as a form of play style and yet their effort to accommodate this play style is almost non-existent. They place all of their changes on a set level bracket (the same level bracket for 3 years now) and disregard the plentiful amount of Power Creep they give us which we would otherwise never need.

They need to consider scaling when they make changes and add new content. This is what bothers me more than the rewards for doing those endurance runs.

 

Thank you!! As I've stated in an earlier comment here:

 

12 hours ago, (Xbox One)Slimm qp ReapeR said:

I'd also like to add that I think the trigger word here is endgame. Endgame as i see it depends on the player so everyone's definition of it will vary.

As it pertains to warframe, I believe that endgame depends on what your goals at that time and is something that isn't just relegated to one specific aspect of the game. One persons idea of endgame in warframe could be trading to get to a certain amount of plat, or Cred farming to get a certain amount of creds or making a clan with an alliance which we all know, these are all challenging things in their own right, not just endless type missions ya know. So I just wanted to clear that up because I can say as an experienced player though running endurance missions and building towards it may be my version of endgame right now, it could change at the drop of a dime at anytime if I so choose to do so.

Endgame is what the player makes it which is the beauty about this game. I think that's where the main source of the backlash comes from regarding this post because people think that OP is trying to make endurance runs the ultimate endgame of warframe when in actuality it's just trying suggest endurance play as another OPTION.

[Djego27]

Well I believe that you will have a issue to rebalance a game on relative feedback. There is nothing wrong with suggesting something, instead of demanding change, actually I think forums are a much more useful baseline for discussions that might or might not have a value or get impended by the devs. However programming and game balance has a very serious signal to noise issue. This is not exclusive to video games, it is a massive issue at any point in software production or maintenance where you have a for the most part absolutely no precise requests to implement by people that have to break it down to numbers and mechanics in a absolute precise way. It is a bit like having a picture in your mind about a city skyline and telling a artist to draw a city skyline, even if you can communicate every detail in your vision, can explain the how the a colour should look like to the person that draws it and deliver a good impression what kind of "feeling" your picture should express(what is difficult, even for people that know how colours work on a emotional level, like marketing/commercial artist background) the chance that somebody else is able to paint your exact vision is close to zero. It is very different and much harder then a customer coming to me and asking for a boiler and heating system for his 4 apartment house, not because it is less complex but because I literally need next to no data from the customer and can actually create something that peaty much exactly match his expectations by data that was collected over the years and is available to me on that common request and can design a good solution from a engineering point of view as well as providing the customer with the thing he wants, even with him being unable to actually explain what he wants.

1. Most abilities got 2 components, one is damage, what will not scale for most abilities(what is ok), the other is CC or other benefits(like movement with slash dash or rino charge etc.) what actually is not affected by levels. If it is just damage the ability is bad(like shuriken on Ash, where the augment actually adds scalability by the armor removal) and should change, otherwise it is fine.

2. Weapons, well the main issues is DE has to sell weapons. This did lead to weapons being progressively more powerful and the added system of mastery rank restrictions hardly matters. However I still think DE actually missing out in the long run by her weapon balance because most of the weapons in the game are not worth keeping or investing into it. Take the tiberon, that is very old and was my first weapon I spend a catalyst and forma on. Do you have 6 forma on the weapon? Did you use it in the last year? I know I have 6 forma on it and I have not used it in a long time, despite of actually being a good weapon for the star chart that only falls off after 40 minutes in void survival by the total lack of crit and status.

3. I like the therm as well since endgame is not a specific content in Warframe(like it is in other game with raids) and every player can kind of define it on his own. Going ham on a L138 eximus gunner with my good old scindo prime and Ember in a melee run 78 minutes into T3S is for me endgame, because it is difficult, while LifeofRio puts that to 180+ minutes with modern weapons makes it look very trivial it actually is not. The challenge in player skill is actually not that different, we both die if we make a single mistake(like missing a smoke screen cast or not hitting accelerant if stuff comes out of CC in front of you), however the level is.

4. Well one time rewards would be cool for people doing it once for them. I for myself would like a stackable chance to get rare relics or other stuff in the rotations. While I am not a die hard endurance runner, staying 12 waves in solo T4 interception or 60+ minuets in survival had the benefit of getting more loot out of your key and having more rolls on C rotation loot tables what where the major pain, where you even after 36 rolls(12h or survival) did not get the part you wanted.

 

[Gildarts_bb]

I can see both sides of this but as DE has already stated the game is balanced around roughly lv 80 and that they will NOT balance specifically for infinite scaling I rather doubt they would put specific rewards in for a part of the game they don't design content around