[Update 20] Limbo Revisited Feedback Megathread

[sulusdacor]

so before the catalysm change i used him to nuke, well aware, that this was not intended this way.

after the change his damage + range seems nothing special compared to other frames doing aoe stuff. to that comes his visuals are not excatly on the light side. so there is nothing that gives limbo any edge over other frames when it comes to aoe clear. which is kinda okay, but on the other hand he is a frame with a lot (if not only problems) when it comes to team play. So if taking that into account i dont understand why these changes went so far as to level him excatly with other frames. a nuke build solved all of the team play problems limbo had. And if you can choose a build that removes all downsides that a frame has in a party play i think it's a good thing.

for the changes excatly in terms of damage it seems fine, but many other frames can clear low level content with normal power str (~ lv20 enemies, with 100% power str or a bit above). so there is nothing special about him. the scaling aspect is totaly fine and incentive to use him in higher content, but since he has problems in a team this change amplifies them even more. you have to catalysm up longer, which hurts your team. so problems he had got worse with this.

in terms of energy. before you got a static amount, this was not influenced by your efficiency. so with max eff you would get more enrgy back then you spend. which yes was a problem, but i would have loved to see the nidus first ability mechanic here. so with max eff you would get a low amount and if you have bad eff you would get more. and probably the energy amount halved (think it was around 10, so maybe if it would be 5 or even less energy per enemy). maybe some amount,that you end up with max a 2 thirds full if you catch a lot of enemies inside and other then that it is a small bonus. so you would have needed a lot of enemies to restore, but even a bit helps. this would give limbo some incentive to still use the nuke build in favor of other aoe builds. it would not break the mechanic. maybe even cap that he can resotre only half or 2 thirds of the energy used to cast even if you have a lot of enemies inside. idk,but there could be many options to make this worth to use.

so for energy limbo has the benefit of getting some inside the rift. but if you run a nuke build you usally stand in the middle of the map. each collapse gets you out of the rift. so you have the rift energy passive not on all the time. then you can not do anything while inside the rift, if you want to nuke and save energy you dont want to cast anything other then 4. and probably just wait in the rift to restore energy. (picking up normal items in the rift is still not possible, so you can not even loot the map while you regen energy) on that note if you do an aoe build usally just collecting energy orbs over the map with the frame is enough to keep using your aoe's if you have max eff. you do not need limbos energy regen from the rift + if you are not limbo that collects the loot too. so while the rift passive is nice it is by no means needed and other aoe frames do well in terms of energy management.

so if your energy management is not super bad for some reason and you dont have zenurik and dont want to use syndicate weapons, while farming low level missions with an aoe clear frame/build (dont see a reason why not to do there things if u farm ...) - there is absolutly no reason to use him over other frames. the changes killed the nuke build completly.

problems for team play got a bit worse. with the whole rework overall they got significantly worse. so yeah...

so now he is sitting in my arsenal waiting for the kehla boss fight if it turns up in the sorties or maybe ambulas depending on how the reworked boss fight plays. other then this no reason to use him.

is he fun to play? definilty only if you are the limbo and dont have another one on the team messing with your stuff. if not he is a pain.

does he scale well? defintily, maybe/probably one of the best.

BUT it is a game ... people want to have fun and limbo was and has become even more the embodiment of a killjoy frame...

thx for reading.

fight on tenno =)

[Fallen_Echo]

7 hours ago, Samuel_sfx said:

take a note..cataclysm not nerfed. it was fixed. its not intended to work like that.

A violent blast of void energy tears open a pocket of rift plane which can sustain itself for a short period before collapsing in another lethal blast.

Im sorry but this description pretty much says that this is a deadly skill made to kill enemies.

BUT

Please tell us what do you think that skill is supposed to do with this description?

 

This skill was nerfed to the ground, all they had to do is to fix the spammability of it to make it act as intented but they decided to go with the damage nerf.

Now at max you deal 1745 blast damage plus 10% of the avarage enemy hp when the cataclysm is at the minimal size. IF your targets have more than 2000 hp they will survive it.

[Samuel_sfx]

45 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

A violent blast of void energy tears open a pocket of rift plane which can sustain itself for a short period before collapsing in another lethal blast.

Im sorry but this description pretty much says that this is a deadly skill made to kill enemies.

BUT

Please tell us what do you think that skill is supposed to do with this description?

 

This skill was nerfed to the ground, all they had to do is to fix the spammability of it to make it act as intented but they decided to go with the damage nerf.

Now at max you deal 1745 blast damage plus 10% of the avarage enemy hp when the cataclysm is at the minimal size. IF your targets have more than 2000 hp they will survive it.

hm? you think mag 4 can do anything without buff?

u think frost 4 can kill without sacrificing eff?

if u really want nuke go play other frame

 

So it does lethal damage FYI,when the duration almost over and the range at the lowest...so it fit the desc isn it?

People asking for challenge in this game but keep looking for shortcut abilities 

Edited April 23, 2017 by Samuel_sfx

[Fallen_Echo]

3 minutes ago, Samuel_sfx said:

hm? you think mag 4 can do anything without buff?

u think frost 4 can kill without sacrificing eff?

if u really want nuke go play other frame

Mag 4 deals 5235 damage 

Frost 4 deals 5235 damage with 100% armor reduction and 1396 explosion damage.

Meanwhile Limbo deals 1745 blast damage plus 10% avarage enemy hp at minimal cataclysm range.

All these builds are made for max strenght and as you can see Limbo's ultimate skill is damn weak.

It no longer fits its description as a lethal blast, its pointless to use it.

But i guess its nothing new as all warframes need to have atleast one useless skill.

[DEATHLOK]

9 hours ago, (PS4)mahoshonenfox said:

I wish they would replace the damage of Cataclysm's collapse with a 1 second stun that opens enemies to melee finishers. A second of stun doesn't sound like much but when combined with Rift Surge to keep enemies in the rift and Stasis to keep time in the rift frozen, 1 second can become 45 seconds. This lets Limbo quickly clean up enemies by using melee finishers on them.

What was so wrong with the way it was before this ridiculous OP update? I've watched Limbo mop the floor with high level enemies better than most. He was a very powerful frame. Now he's a troll.

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

Stasis when cataclysm is active should force all allies into melee. It should buff dmg by .5 and increase channeling and ability efficiency by 10%.

 

Otherwise stasis is useless as most of the community has no idea of the projectile limit.

[-CM-NineFingers]

17 minutes ago, DEATHLOK said:

What was so wrong with the way it was before this ridiculous OP update? I've watched Limbo mop the floor with high level enemies better than most. He was a very powerful frame. Now he's a troll.

Don't think so. Been a Limbo main for 4 months now, and he was capable of doing great damage with the rift surge augment and a long range cataclysm, but still getting oneshoted past lvl 100. I don't care about his mechanics in lvl 20, were Oberon's abilities still kill lots (can't wait for that rework btw).

The problem with the old limbo was that he could kill enemies one by one from the rift, or cast a bubble, cast rift surge, and become a glass cannon, dealing incredibly damage before getting two stray shots from a trashmob and dying.

Now you have an indestructible bubble (not like frost, cause frost's SG gets deactivated easily at high levels) that stops enemies on their tracks, thus making it a safe haven for squishy frames like himself, making status last forever and regenerating energy slowly for the whole team. If it didn't stop allied bullets it would be OP as hell, but since it doesn't let you just headshot everything without problems due to the bullet cap, it's balanced. Melee, tho, doesn't get affected, so you can now mop the floor with enemies without dying in the process. Can you shoot inside? Sure. reach the 300 bullets cap and bullets will start killing. Just recast stasis and repeat.

So let's see the facts:

-Visuals need to be enhanced? True.

-Is the best CC in the game? True.

-Doesn't let you shoot inside? You can always shoot.

-Can stasis be deactivated by team mates? Sure.

-Is limbo as prone to die trying to kill as before? Nope, unless you're out of the rift, where a single bullet can kill you.

-Does he force you to go melee inside the cataclysm when stasis is active? Nope, shoot until limit is achieved, then recast.

Limbo's passive energy regen on enemies killed in the rift is there to give you a chance for one thing, and just one thing: Cast Stasis, cast Cataclysm, line headshots, deactivate stasis, enemies die, you gain energy, recast stasis, repeat. Allies can do this too.

So, given that his life depends on an ability that allies can deactivate at will (unless he stays in the rift and doesn't do anything, which is not the funniest way to play warframe), meaning it's currently the only frame whose life depends on abilities that your team can deactivate at will, how does he troll? I'd say Limbo gets trolled way more that he trolls.

[(PSN)Feox_PH]

Even with melee, Stasis and Cataclysm have some problems, particularly with the Zenistar disc... it just stops in mid-air and will not burst into flames when inside Cataclysm under Stasis.  I would purposely bring out my primary or secondary weapon just to overload stasis so my disc will work.  And when the disc does work, Limbo decides to remove the Cataclysm leaving the Zenistar disc not dealing damage due to for some reason the disc remains in the rift (even though I am not).

I assume similar problems may also occur with thrown melee weapons.

Stasis and Cataclysm have synergy problems with other players... they are not supposed to force other players to use melee weapons only (e.g. focus lenses attached to primary or secondary, or in my case on the Zenistar disc).

Last I heard (Dev. Stream), [DE] is working on something to rectify the "problem". Not sure how though.

P.S. I love Limbo though... I am sad that in trying to find synergies for his abilities, these abilities are causing some problems in co-op play.

Edited April 23, 2017 by (PS4)Feox_PH

[LazyKnight]

@-CM-Limbo

The more I think of it, the more I am convinced his '4' is the main issue with his 2 being fixable with a tweak in its behavior. His 4 is obtrusive visually and if it is going to stay it doesn't need to have that sphere effect. It could be something like Oberon's hallowed ground or Nidus's '4' with it on the ground or something similar to Nova's 4 and just debuff the Ai. There are too many special effects going on at once during most group games and having that much of a distortion is distracting.

I am extremely biased against his 2 and how it works with his 4. This type of CC is toxic in warframe and and it's the only hard CC that I can think of that slows that game down so dramatically. No CC should be safe, nor should it allow an area lock down. There is nothing about this power that seems remotely balanced to me.

His 2 could be fixed by making it automatically kill the Ai if the damage suspended is in excess of the Ai's total effective health. Make it imminent, if someone points a Tigris Prime and shots a level 30 runner in stasis, it should instantly kill them. The player shouldn't have to use melee or whatever, well maybe if they want bonus damage or something.

Hard CC and area nukes are why DE put Nullifier Crewman in the game in the first place. I do not want more factions getting bubble boys just to balance out limbo.

12 hours ago, -CM-Limbo said:

I'd say Limbo gets trolled way more that he trolls.

Isn't that the entire point of his quest, collecting his parts after he trolled himself?

Edited April 24, 2017 by LazyKnight

[(PSN)lhbuch]

Also with a huge range cataclysm, players are prevented to play with their weapons as they would like. I think it is annoying.

[(PSN)mahoshonenfox]

Strangely, I am not experiencing any of these problems with Stasis when I play as Limbo in pugs. I am aware that it stops other people's bullets so I don't turn it on if I don't need to. I ran a rift torrent build on Limbo before the rework so I know how to play inside a Cataclysmic battle arena without the use of Stasis. Just damage boost from Rift Torrent.

Right now, I'm actually exploring Cataclysm's DoT effect when combined with Stasis as it makes the rift transition damage shred enemies repeatedly, better than WoF damage. You can't move it around but hey, it annihilates things with no armor even at sortie levels.

[RedDirtTrooper]

@-CM-Limbo You say they can always shoot, but completely ignore the fact that the ability takes away all feedback for those shots. Do you know if you have fired enough to kill the target? No. Do you know if you hit? No. Do you know if someone else has already fired enough to kill that target? No. You act like just anyone can override that 300 projectile limit as well. Tell someone stuck in their with a Dread and their Lex Prime that they aren't being forced to melee. Hope they don't have a rank 6 ceramic dagger equipped. Pretending there aren't massive problems with his kit doesn't make them go away. 

[(PSN)psycofang]

6 hours ago, Samuel_sfx said:

hm? you think mag 4 can do anything without buff?

She can yes in fact with a certain weapon or any of its class she can wipe groups of heavy armored targets with ease.

 

6 hours ago, Samuel_sfx said:

think frost 4 can kill without sacrificing eff?

Thats a raw power strength limbo there is no efficiency.

6 hours ago, Samuel_sfx said:

if u really want nuke go play other frame

 

Deflection

6 hours ago, Samuel_sfx said:

So it does lethal damage FYI,when the duration almost over and the range at the lowest...so it fit the desc isn it?

Except the two nerfs and how it functions drastically harms itself. 

[Emperrier]

Since the nerf, Limbo is a glass cannon with no cannonballs. All I use him for anymore is Kuva, where I pop an enemy at the beginning so I don't get afk flagged and then sit in the Rift all mission because if I ever leave the Rift I will get instagibbed and if I try to CC I will still get instagibbed because Kuva Guardians are immune. I can't even use him for Sabotage or Corpus Spy because his 4 does such garbage damage now it doesn't even reliably pop the glass vials/tumors/cameras. He just doesn't have the durability to do anything besides Stasis large groups of enemies and play Rift Janitor with his melee weapon.

[Fallen_Echo]

17 minutes ago, Emperrier said:

Since the nerf, Limbo is a glass cannon with no cannonballs. All I use him for anymore is Kuva, where I pop an enemy at the beginning so I don't get afk flagged and then sit in the Rift all mission because if I ever leave the Rift I will get instagibbed and if I try to CC I will still get instagibbed because Kuva Guardians are immune. I can't even use him for Sabotage or Corpus Spy because his 4 does such garbage damage now it doesn't even reliably pop the glass vials/tumors/cameras. He just doesn't have the durability to do anything besides Stasis large groups of enemies and play Rift Janitor with his melee weapon.

From the master of the rift, the lord of the dimensions he became the rift janitor sweeping trash out of the rift.

This is why im soo against nerf, they cant do it properly. They either nuke stuff from the orbit or dont fix the problem at all.

[(PSN)mahoshonenfox]

I'd like to make another suggestion for Limbo's Cataclysm's collapse calculation. It seems like its overly complicated. I'd like it to scale but I don't want it to one shot enemies either so here's my suggestion. Let it act like a life shaver.

An enemy caught in Cataclysm's collapse will receive damage equal to 10% of their current health. It no longer matters how many enemies there are since the damage will be unique per enemy having different "current" health values.

For example, there's two enemies caught in the blast. One has 90 current health while the other has 100 current health. The enemy with 90 health will get 9 blast damage while the enemy with 100 health will get 10 blast damage.

The effect by itself will never kill an enemy so its design is to soften enemies instead. Most likely, if you hit an enemy 10x with Cataclysm, its the 300 transition damage that will eventually kill them in the end. Either that or the 500 blast damage from Cataclysm's formation.

[(PSN)psycofang]

So turn cata into a giant viral proc bubble.

 

I am ok with this.

 

 

[(XBOX)CannyJack]

I've mentioned this before in the great monster the Limbo thread has been, but Devs, would you consider exploring a way to decouple Rift Dash from the crouch/roll button?

See, the situation is this: prior to the Limbo update, I had one button that did two...well, three things...while playing Limbo and any other frame:

1. Rapid forward move (roll) if I tapped it

2. Crouch if I held it. 

3. Slide if I held it while moving. 

After the rework, that one button now does 4 things for Limbo:

1. Crouch if I tap it holding still. 

2. Rapid forward movement (dash instead of roll but the speed/distance is approx the same) if I tap while moving. 

3. Slide if I hold while moving. 

4. Toggle Rift state whenever 2, above, happens. 

The above provides for some amusing (by which I mean "not amusing") opportunities for mistakes, specifically because the Rift change is a toggle. Accidentally de-rifting when I meant to slide but held the button a millisecond too short; instinctively using roll to move quickly and de-rifting right through a laser tripwire, that sort of thing. The change is (to me, as a console player) a decrease in QoL for Limbo. I don't care about his other powers, the Rift dash is enough to put him on the bench. 

I suggest one of two options:

1. Decouple Rift entry/exit from movement. Make it a normal power like every other. I doubt that's in the cards, because everybody is giddy over how stylish dashing looks (myself included).

2. Make it not a toggle. Roll...er, I mean, dash...only enters the Rift. Either a timer, or another maneuver (like a backflip) takes you out. Alternate maneuver is best, so you can end the Rift Walk whenever you want  

I'd prefer 1, but 2 lets you keep the flashy dash animation. 

I doubt one voice in the wilderness matters, but I thought I'd elaborate on comments I've made elsewhere. Also, for the "git gud" crowd, I thank you in advance for your refreshing and challenging additions to this thread. I will take your wisdom and ponder it in my heart. 

 

Edit: or, let's get really weird: confine Limbo to the Rift permanently, and make him spend energy to interact with things outside. Build up passive stacks of "intent" that are spent to activate consoles, carry objects, or hack.

Edited April 23, 2017 by (XB1)CannyJack

[IcicleFerret]

I have to admit, I like being able to enter the rift at no energy cost. However, I would like if there was another way to control the rift walk, but I can't for the life of me find a better solution to Limbo 2.0 as he is now. Your idea of dashing into the rift and being on a timer would not be dissimilar from the old Rift Walk ability, but there would still have to be some way of cancelling it in case you needed to escape the rift early, for example to hack a console or open a friendship door.

I am intrigued by your edit addition, to make Limbo exist permanently within the rift. Some serious balance questions come to mind, like how would he work in missions such as spy or sabotage, where one needs to interact with the environment? Would he have to spend energy to hack the consoles? What if there is an Energy Leech Eximus nearby that makes it impossible?

If I were a developer, (and I'm not,) I would change Limbo thus:

Passive: Limbo deals greater damage to Rifted enemies based on the number of enemies in the Rift. (this would have to have some cap to it, like "+2.5% per enemy, max of 30%," or "+5% for the first 2 enemies, +2.5 for the next 6 enemies, +1% for the next 6, then nothing.")

1) Banish: Sends target to or from the Rift plane and slightly damages them. When banishing from the same plane, works as an AoE, affected by Power Range. When Banishing across planes, is single-target only. Damage dealt is affected by Limbo's passive and Power Strength

2) Rift Walk: When active, allows Limbo to traverse the Rift by rolling. This is a toggle ability: if it is toggled on, Limbo can roll to enter or exit the rift with a dash motion. When toggled off, he does not enter or exit the rift when rolling. This ability would function somewhat similar to Nekros's Desecrate, in that it would only drain energy when proc'd, and the amount per dash would be fixed, but affected by Power Efficiency.

3) Rift Surge: Enemies inside the rift become vulnerable to damage from either plane, and take additional damage from the material plane. Amount of additional damage is affected by Power Strength.

4) Cataclysm: Basically unchanged from the 2.0 version, though even a revert to the original cataclysm with the addition of causing enemies to stagger upon entering/exiting would also be fine in my book.

I think a version of Limbo similar to the above would make him more valuable to parties and would reduce, if not eliminate, some of the issues caused by the current Void Dash. As cool as Stasis is, I think it is far more annoying than helpful, especially when playing in a party that requires teamwork to kill lots of things. Using Stasis when soloing or when in something like a Spy mission to hold enemies in place isn't that big of an issue, but to cast Cataclysm on teammates when they're engaged in a firefight, while Stasis is in effect, can elicit more than a few curses from said teammates.

Again, if I were a developer, I would move the Stasis ability to a new warframe, perhaps one solely based on time such as this:

 

[TentownsRaid]

I view limbo's self banish as his unique roll. I see the dilemma you are in being use to rolling on frames but detaching it is a bit pointless due to his kit being the way it is.Also having him have a different uniqueness won't really help due to your idea being a bit restrictive on what players can do with him. 

[(PSN)mahoshonenfox]

4 hours ago, (PS4)psycofang said:

So turn cata into a giant viral proc bubble.

 

I am ok with this.

 

 

Either that or a 500 blast damage identical to the initial formation of Cataclysm that is increased by 10% for each sec Cataclysm stays open. Heck, it doesn't even need a multiplier if it can be affected by strength mods. The current one in game just seems to be a waste of coding since its overly complicated and hardly contributes anything for Limbo.

[(PSN)psycofang]

8 minutes ago, (PS4)mahoshonenfox said:

Either that or a 500 blast damage identical to the initial formation of Cataclysm that is increased by 10% for each sec Cataclysm stays open. Heck, it doesn't even need a multiplier if it can be affected by strength mods. The current one in game just seems to be a waste of coding since its overly complicated and hardly contributes anything for Limbo.

If its 500 (modified by power) by time id like rift torrent to attribute towards the end calculations.

Viral bubble dont let rift torrent give to its final calcs or itll bring back catadeath bubble to a degree.

[(PSN)mahoshonenfox]

27 minutes ago, (PS4)psycofang said:

If its 500 (modified by power) by time id like rift torrent to attribute towards the end calculations.

Viral bubble dont let rift torrent give to its final calcs or itll bring back catadeath bubble to a degree.

Nah, it doesn't even need a time based modifier. Basically when you cast Cata, the initial formation deals 500 blast damage and when you collapse it, it deals another 500 blast damage with rag doll effect. Both 500 blast damage is modified by power strength mods.

I would even prefer no damage on collapse if the collapse rag dolled everything in the bubble like a Sonicor shot modded for blast damage.

[Gurpgork]

5 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

This is why im soo against nerf, they cant do it properly. They either nuke stuff from the orbit or dont fix the problem at all.

Well can you really blame them for being terrible at nerfing things? They only throw out about 5 nerfs a year, so it's not like they have much practice with it. 

[Fallen_Echo]

6 hours ago, Gurpgork said:

Well can you really blame them for being terrible at nerfing things? They only throw out about 5 nerfs a year, so it's not like they have much practice with it. 

But then why we have this cursed area of salt named forums?

To check what sounds acceptable to the playerbase.

All limbo threads were full with people saying that they need to fix the spammability of the skill and it good, but they ignored it.