[Update 20] Limbo Revisited Feedback Megathread

[Loopien]

I like stasis but I would like it to launch all projectiles from the rift at once and not in the order they were fired, that would be my only gripe so far. Also a way to check when I have reached the limit on how many I can use, unless it is already in there and I just cannot find it.

[Reifnir]

I'm probably going to voice an unpopular opinion here, but to me, Limbo went from an ultra-specialized frame that had some use (hostage rescue, keeping squishy caster frames alive in high-level missions) to a total gimmick frame with hardly any use at all. 

1) Being unable to roll is bad. Not only it takes a decent chunk out of his parkouring away, it's clunky to use and way too risky in high-level environments. 

2) Banish always being AoE is not really a good thing. Limbo needs a precision ability, not a lesser version of Cataclysm.

Possible solution: Rift walk on Banish button hold, regular, single target Banish on single tap?

3) Not being able to banish across planes is an outright disaster. Do I even need to elaborate how bad it is to jump out of a rift in an attempt to save someone just to get torn to shreds being this squishy? Please revert!

 

4) Stasis, while awesome on paper turned out to be little more than a gimmick. Given the unstable nature of Cataclysm, enemies near the edge are prone to freeing themselves at the worst possible moment when the bubble shrinks, making it unreliable as a form of CC. Additionally, object limit isn't exactly fun. If having 10,000 Hikou Prime Stars unfreeze at the same time is going to kill game performance, how about making the following changes:

a) Cataclysm size remains fixed for its entire duration

b) Player projectiles shot inside Cataclysm bubble or shot at it from outside don't linger as projectiles, but simply add to the damage of the collapse event when the bubble expires or is cancelled, somewhat akin to Assimilate?

 

Edited March 26, 2017 by Reifnir

[malekas]

Just realized another issue. The little "tear" that Limbo leaves behind when he rolls is a terrible idea. I was running a fissure today and ended up following behind a Limbo that was constantly rolling in and out of the rift (Because that's how you move fast and safe in Warframe). I had to snake left and right to dodge the tears so I would stop putting myself in the rift. It was annoying as h***.

 

The premise behind this didn't work for Volt, and it's not working here either. All they do is become land mines that your allies have to dodge.

[Omnimorph]

Not sure about Limbo as haven't tried it yet, but being in Titania's Razorwing but being unable to "roll out of" the Rift is annoying.  Don't know if this was always the case as I only got Titania recently, and never really interacted in PUGs with Limbo with her till today.

[Papragu]

While the rework changed the playstyle of Limbo, it didn't really do much to make him more usefull. Here some ideas to make him viable.

1. Banish
It shouldn't affect team members and players should be able to banish enemies independent of which plane they are in.

2. Stasis
Shouldn't freeze bullets. (Rhinos Stomp or Vaubans Bastille, don't stop bullets either.) By the time a group of enemies is banished,
put in stasis, fired all the shots upon them, then released from stasis. Most other warframes kill the same ammount of enemies by just using one ability.

3. Rift Surge
(Being in the Rift should gradually drain Limbos energy 8-10/s) If Rift Surge affected enemies are killed within the rift, Limbos energy recharges by 1-2.

4. Cataclysm
Should be a bubble, just like Nova's Molecular Prime but with the mechanics of Ember's World on Fire. It should cause a certain ammount of innitial damage
and cause damage over time on affected enemies.

Edited March 26, 2017 by Papragu

[Rythiman]

6 hours ago, Buzkyl said:

Rift surge is now the AoE Banish skill

• Send an enemy into the rift from the material plane
• Surge them while in the rift, charging them
• If you try to banish them while within the rift, they will come back into the Rift as well as banish more nemies into the rift, consuming their charge.

The rework has completely altered his playstyle, you basically have to relearn the ins and outs.

That's right, after I figured this out I had no problem staying in the rift while being able to banish more enemies than usual safely and doing more AoE damage as well. I didn't like it at first but limbo totally has more control of the battle field now. People are trying to apply the old play style and it just doesn't work. Rift surge and cataclysm are more important for banishing enemies and stasis is important for survivability. If done right you can destroy enemies without once subjecting yourself to vulnerability.

My issue now is the bugs. For one if you fire shots or projectiles in stasis they are cancelled if you switch weapons or exit the rift. They should stay.

[Omnimorph]

What's the equivalent of "rolling out of" Rift when you're in Titania's Razorwing? (If there is any - if there isn't, well that would seem to be a bit of a problem.)

[Noabettiet]

My only critic and feedback i have over the limbo changes are really quality of live changes and whatnot.

1. Disable enemy/ally collision when they are in a different dimension/plane (like inside or out of the rift). Maybe add an effect when they phase through you, but the point is really so that it'd would make the rift feel like an actual "different plane/dimension", as well make it less awkward when enemies try to slash you off to pieces and just stand there despite they can collide with you. This can also be an useful tool in navigating through crowds of enemies. (aesthetic change, with some utility)
2. Keep the maneuver on the rolling animation to rift walk, i loved what you guys did and i support all the other skills. However i admittedly believe that augments should be changed to reflect the new limbo, with them also including some extra team friendly buffs. Instead of the current ones where banishing heals (Haven augment healing makes for very counter-intuitive use of banish, specially now that it hits multiple enemies. Maybe have it to simply heal allies over time while instead the rift? or/and bleed out slowly) and Rift Torrent that only buffs limbo.
3. Maybe add an UI element when held to see the area of effect thing, like on nidus, for limbos banish skill. That would likely solve the problem with it banishing unwanted individuals to the "shadow zone". 
4. You should be kicked out of the rift once you "die" or are in a downed state. 

And that is all, keep up with the good work DE. This changes were much needed and if you manage to do these, i will and perhaps many other personality be very thankful once again.

Edited March 26, 2017 by Noabettiet

[General_Durandal]

• Studied his new setup for a while.
• Now that he can't banish things while in the rift, 
• you'll want at least 200% power duration.
• Luckily, you can achieve this without getting a - to power strength.
•  
• Suggested mod loadout,
• Quick Thinking, max
• Cunning Drift, max,
• Narrow Minded, Rank 9
• Stretch, max
• Primed Flow, max
• Primed Continuity, max
• Fleeting Expertise, rank 3,
• Streamline, max.
•  
• Use whatever aura and utility you want.
• I'm using Energy Siphon and Coaction Drift.

~

First Limbo Test, Session unavailable.

 

~

2nd limbo test

Quick Thinking Doesn't Work.

You can't turn off rift-walking while downed, 
meaning while downed in rift mode you are useless to your team.
The transition between rift and reality is clean though, instant even.
Much faster than before.

 

 

~

Limbo Test 3, Stasis doesn't work on Bosses.

• Surge needs a target now, meaning it only affects one enemy per cast.
• It's pretty mu Banish, but enemies under it's effects explode when killed.
• What a waste of a power slot, that could just be normal banish.
• Surge also no longer dives a Damage Multiplier,
• and Limbo no longer gets his damage bonus just for being in the rift.

~

~

~

~

~

Edited March 26, 2017 by General_Durandal

[Sasquatchias]

Personally one thing I'd like to  see touched up on with the new Limbo is his dash - I feel like players should be able to shoot during it as opposed to being forced into that animation, and I feel that sort of change would make Limbo feel a bit less clunkier whilst also giving him more combat options by dashing in and out of the Rift, gunning down enemies whilst skillfully evading their fire.

[Zoh_Veldae]

Just to add a bit more to the test: Grineer Napalm flame blasts don't hit you while in the Rift but they do hit your Sentinel.

[Drago55577]

2 hours ago, sangheli482 said:

I feel the same way about the not having octaves thing and not being able to set your own tempo. Yeah it would sound really bad if you had two octavias that were using different keys/tempos or even just one octavia that didn't know how to write music or was trolling, but I always thought, "that's why they have pre-made songs: for people that don't want to bother writing their own compositions." The primary reason is probably balance and such like you said. 

But it does seem odd that each ability has it's own duration rather than just having them be togglable. It makes sense for the fourth ability to have a duration. But with the synergy of the first three why not just make them all toggle abilities and then have the passive follow your suggestion: allies get power regeneration based on how many of your abilities are active.

Dude, it doesn't stop people who want to troll. I filled the entire thing with as many notes as I could and it sounded @(*()$ horrendous. It was also good for using the 3. 

[Buzkyl]

2 hours ago, Papragu said:

While the rework changed the playstyle of Limbo, it didn't really do much to make him more usefull.

 

• Stasis is hard CC that is rift wide.
• Cataclsym is a nuke now with scaling added

 

Sorry but how is that not useful?

[Crashen]

1. Banish does not banish EVERYTHING in it's radius. It banishes a group of whatever it has targeted. So if you target an enemy, it'll banish the enemies around them, but not friendlies, and vice versa. I haven't brought Limbo into any group missions yet, but have been doing a lot of invasions. 

2. Time Stop can be turned on even when nothing is in the rift. Turn on time stop while in real-space, banish a group of enemies (freezing them), then shift into the Rift to dispatch them at your leisure.

3. Surge has a neat little quirk: enemies in the rift who are Surged, will return to the Rift if they are expelled, being banished and taking some extra damage. So enter the Rift, turn on time stop, drop a cataclysm on a group of enemies, and then Surge them. Deactivate cataclysm (if you want) to nuke them, and they will remain in the Rift as if they were banished, and you never had to be exposed to harm.

Yes, it requires more steps and energy, and more strategy, but you can still remain mostly safe from harm by using Cataclysm and Surge to pull enemies into the rift and keep them there. The only tricky part is that Cataclysm pulls you out of the rift if you are in it. So don't stand in it while you are performing this combo. Simple.

[Crashen]

Limbo can still pull enemies into the Rift with him. He just uses Cataclysm now instead of Banish. To keep them there, use Surge. Surge Re-banishes enemies who escape the rift (ie when Cataclysm collapses.)

[(XBOX)CannyJack]

Well, what I'm hoping DE keeps in mind as they take in feedback is how this affects console users. There are two main things: 

1. The optimal power chaining is tough. The technique Buddhakingpen outlines, which may indeed be very effective, is (if I counted right) seventeen button presses on a console controller, unless you reconfigure it (sacrificing other controls).

2. The roll and crouch commands on a console are the same button (tap/hold) and can't be separated, which raises the possibility of accidentally entering or leaving the Rift at a bad time. Obviously, the common answer will be "well don't F*** up then," but still, I hope they recognize that as a possible issue. 

So, DE: please think about us peasants. 

[(PSN)mahoshonenfox]

People really need to learn how to move forward. Look at what he can do.

 

You have to look at the positives. His Cataclysm is like Equinox's Maim now. It insta-kills level 140s. And I read nullifiers don't affect his Rift Dash because its a passive. Not sure if any of these will be adjusted in the future but he is strong right now.

If you want to pull enemies in the rift with you while you're in the rift, you have to use his 3 now or his 4 at the most. His 1 has a completely different purpose now.

[ScorchedIce]

I've noticed multishot affect the number of max projectiles that Stasis can hold, which is 300, is affected by multishot. This isn't too much of a big deal, except when you consider weapons like the Kohm. Last game i had a teammate with that weapon that kept shutting down my Stasis immediately, because of all the projectiles it generates when shooting. pls fix.

[(XBOX)CannyJack]

All this great Rift lore and spooky concepts just to turn him into a CC/Nuke frame. 

Edited March 26, 2017 by (XB1)CannyJack

[CerebrateJoe]

Really didn't like this rebuild.  I'll try to be brief and constructive.

I'm ok with how he moves in/out of the rift.  It's awkward at first, but after a little practice you've dodging like a pro.  With practice, this is crazy fun and useful, but ya, awkward at first.

I really don't like the new Banish.  It took the best part of the old one and broke it.  It was a lot of fun pulling baddies into your arena on your terms.  Now, its just makes them go away from you.  You have to enter reality, Banish them, then back into the rift to fight them.  Why even use the rift then?  I think it makes it harder to use effectively.  I really don't like not being able to rift people from inside the rift.  The radius effect is a good change, but too small.  (Edit:  I didn't realize it was a cone/line attack.  I thought it was a circle.  Range is good now that I'm using it right.)  Even with stretch its lackluster.

I just don't care for stasis right now.  If I can banish from inside the rift I'll have a use for it, but right now, it's unnecessary.  Its a good try, though. It could be really great.  I only see it being useful for crazy high level common enemies.  I haven't tried, but I'm sure it won't work on bosses.

Rift Surge.  What even is this?  I know the rules, but its so situational I don't really enjoy it.  Its like Nova's ult, but low powered and with a banish mechanic that's difficult to use.  It works pretty good with Cataclysm, but not really with Banish.  To improve, make it a toggle or give it a cast duration that effects everything in the rift.  Spamming it with banish isn't fun.  Its just struggling to make the combo work.  This ability makes me wonder why even have the rift?  Previously I did lots of extra damage.  What does the rift do for me now?  Why do I want to take the baddies there?

Cataclysm.  Good change, but It needs to stay large till the collapse. The shrinking thing really makes it less fun and useful than it deserves to be.

Finally, every hates the rift and limbos because they prevent the collection of loot. (Edit:  The Rift, not Cataclysm)  This is a game about loot!  It's Farmframe and I can't pick things up.  This absolutely has to change.

Edit:  You can pick up items while in Cataclysm.  I love this change, and thank you DE.  This was a great change.  When I said "Finally, every hates the rift and limbos because they prevent the collection of loot." I should have been clearer that I was talking about the Rift, and not Cataclsym.

Edited March 27, 2017 by CerebrateJoe
I was unclear about the division between the Rift and Cataclsym

[(PSN)salovel1991]

26 minutes ago, CerebrateJoe said:

Really didn't like this rebuild.  I'll try to be brief and constructive.

I'm ok with how he moves in/out of the rift.  It's awkward at first, but after a little practice you've dodging like a pro.  With practice, this is crazy fun and useful, but ya, awkward at first.

I really don't like the new Banish.  It took the best part of the old one and broke it.  It was a lot of fun pulling baddies into your arena on your terms.  Now, its just makes them go away from you.  You have to enter reality, Banish them, then back into the rift to fight them.  Why even use the rift then?  I think it makes it harder to use effectively.  I really don't like not being able to rift people from inside the rift.  The radius effect is a good change, but too small.  Even with stretch its lackluster.

I just don't care for stasis right now.  If I can banish from inside the rift I'll have a use for it, but right now, it's unnecessary.  Its a good try, though. It could be really great.  I only see it being useful for crazy high level common enemies.  I haven't tried, but I'm sure it won't work on bosses.

Rift Surge.  What even is this?  I know the rules, but its so situational I don't really enjoy it.  Its like Nova's ult, but low powered and with a banish mechanic that's difficult to use.  It works pretty good with Cataclysm, but not really with Banish.  To improve, make it a toggle or give it a cast duration that effects everything in the rift.  Spamming it with banish isn't fun.  Its just struggling to make the combo work.  This ability makes me wonder why even have the rift?  Previously I did lots of extra damage.  What does the rift do for me now?  Why do I want to take the baddies there?

Cataclysm.  Good change, but It needs to stay large till the collapse. The shrinking thing really makes it less fun and useful than it deserves to be.

Finally, every hates the rift and limbos because they prevent the collection of loot.  This is a game about loot!  It's Farmframe and I can't pick things up.  This absolutely has to change.

You can pick up loot from Cataclysm now. It states it in the changes that Danielle posted since this post was put up. 

[Frenjo]

50 minutes ago, CerebrateJoe said:

-snipped-

I agree with this, except you can now pick stuff up within cataclysm as one of the already made changes.

[Ayaz2010]

I really think Limbo should be able to banish enemies no matter which existance plane he stans in. Plus, I think his first skill should be like Ivara's Quiver or Vauban's mines. Two options: banish enemies or banish allies. Because let's be honest, even if you go full Narrow Minded, it's still 11 meters of Aoe Banish. I really appriecate idea of AoE Banish, but that should be divided for two options. Nobody likes to be put in the Rift by accident. And Max Range builds are going to be a thing in pubs, so, yeah.

[Aekhon]

My two cents is the same as most:  not being able to banish enemies to the Rift while in the Rift basically ruins Limbo, because Stasis and Void Surge become very clunky and risky to use with Banish. 

The only other piece of feedback I have is that the AoE on Banish should not affect allies.  That just makes the Limbo trolling problem even worse, because now Limbo doesn't even have to hit you with Banish to troll you.  While playing as a different frame, I got accidentally banished by the Limbo on my squad several times.  I don't blame the player; he was seriously just trying to use his powers on the enemies but got me, too (I'm a melee player, so I'm always near enemies).  Yes, I know I can roll to get out, but that screws up my timing and momentum, and might also cost me my combo multiplier (I use a melee crit build, so the multiplier is actually important).

[(PSN)mahoshonenfox]

I've seen how Rift Surge works and I think the in game description is wrong. Its either bugged or the description is outdated. I think Rift Surge could also be simplified.

When Limbo casts Rift Surge, he doesn't create a 25m AoE that surges all enemies in range. Instead, it surges all enemies in the rift regardless of distance like how Stasis works. Like before, when a surged enemy leaves the rift or dies, they do an AoE Banish.

The AoE Banish has different effects depending on the status of the enemy;

- if it hits enemies outside of the rift, those enemies get pulled in.

- if it hits unSurged enemies inside the rift, those enemies get Surged. Either that or all enemies entering the rift are automatically Surged as there might just be 1 comon duration tied to Limbo.

- if it hits Surged enemies then their Surge duration is refreshed. No more damage. Either that or no effect as Rift Surge's duration might be tied in to Limbo and not the enemy.

This makes it so you don't need to punt enemies anymore. Just kill Surged enemies and you can keep pulling in targets into the rift with you.

Edited March 26, 2017 by (PS4)mahoshonenfox