[Update 20] Limbo Revisited Feedback Megathread

[Ry0uSh1n]

Limbo Rework - What I think he should be

• Passive: While in the Rift, Limbo receives a slight Energy regeneration. Additionally, enemies killed in the Rift will grant Limbo 10 Energy.

• Rift Walk: Movement Activated Ability:

While in Rift Limbo should not be able to be forced out by Nullifiers. Its plain as day that Limbo is suppose to be master of the Rift. So why does he take damage from outside of the rift. Makes absolutely no sense. Now to keep with the quest line that was mention that Original Limbo was destroyed by the rift, compensate the energy regen for hp loss while in the rift. To compensate for rejuvenation mod, just change it so that any limbo equipped with this mod or in a party with someone equipped with said mod will not regen while in the rift.

Since Limbo would be in the rift, rejuvenation aura mods from other party members will be canceled out if they are outside the rift and limbo is in. It would just be a matter of a check to see if Limbo is in the rift, if so disable hp regen for limbo only. All other party members that are not limbo will still be able to benefit from rejuvenation if its equipped on limbo if they are inside the rift. As for Limbo he is unable to regen hp while in the rift. This in turn would be his flaw. This would be the ONLY damage limbo can take while in the rift. This would keep limbo players from just sitting in the rift becoming immune to all damage with the exception of his flaw.

• 1: Banish:

Limbo should be able to banish both from and to the rift. Not just one way. Limbo is in rift, decides to pull enemy to rift with him. He should be able to do so.

• 2. Stasis:

This ability in my opinion, should have its own timer, of something around 5 seconds. Having it affected by duration mods just is too much. It would have the risk if say for example, Limbo pops cataclysm over a group of enemies, pops stasis, limbo has 5 seconds to dish out as much damage to the enemies within before stasis wears off. Have it on maybe a 8-10 second cooldown of its own. Would allow for more tactical use and not as spammy. This would still be a risk as when stasis wears off if enemies inside the rift are still alive, they can damage limbo. Which in turn is the risk of being inside the cataclysm/rift with enemies .

• 3. Rift Surge:

I havent really seen too much of a issue here so keep it as is for now.

• 4: Cataclysm:

Keep it as is, but ensure that if limbo walks inside his flaw kicks in and he begins losing hp.

 

With these changes I think Limbo will be able to actually be called Master of the Rift. IMO I would like these changes, would allow more tactical limbo play and still be the risk of being KO for being the rift for too long. Just as I previously stated, while in the rift and there are no enemies in the rift with limbo, he is immune to ALL damage and nullifiers, but has his flaw, a bleed effect. Now if Nullifiers are able to still kick limbo out of the rift, I better see some corpus units that can attack you from the rift that have similar abilities to limbo, otherwise my statement stands. Immune to ALL DAMAGE AND NULLIFIERS while in rift!!

[Cimbro94]

 

5 minutes ago, AdunSaveMe said:

Crouch/jump is significantly easier to press than crouch/roll.

Having to stop to go into the rift would be even worse.

You do not have to stop... You just need to leave the shift key for a brief moment (and could also be done in the air keeping momentum as invisibility loki does).... It makes you a tiny bit slower for that second and then you could keep up running and rolling as long as you held the sprint button... Do you keep the same opinion?

[(PSN)mahoshonenfox]

Old school Limbo players have always been melee brawlers because of rift torrent and naramon shadow step. We never had a problem with melee.

Newer Limbo players with this rework will need to learn to keep the enemies to themselves. Cast 2, 4, 3 and then collapse 4. There you go. Squad mates can shoot freely at enemies on the material plane while the Limbo player can deal with all the other enemies time stopped in the rift plane.

[Automata]

Welp, the best way to play limbo right now is completely different as to how DE wanted it to be.

Main abilities are 2 and 4. I don't ever use 1 and 3 makes it clunky.

I run a wide range Cataclysm injunction with his 2. Which immobilizes targets in a wide area. What I don't like is that factions as Corpus and Orokin have this one dude - Nullifier that completely destroys limbo. Having this NPC be capable of closing cataclysms completely nulls Limbo as a frame since he has 0 surivability outside of rift (hence his 1 is also futile to use).

[Demon.King]

or convince DE to implement switch modifiers for controls to solve 99% of the controller problems by doubling controller buttons trough software.

[Xekrin]

1 hour ago, OoharaSora said:

Slide, then roll, or Crouch, then roll, Maybe I should change the title to Crouch + Roll

Possibly, though to be honest, I slide and roll just as much as I roll only for mobility purposes so I imagine others do as well, this will likely change nothing for them.  In any case, you aren't the only one disturbed by the change so we'll see if they decide to tweak it at all in the future.

[CowDung]

I bind my keys to slide/crouch and slide separately as its gives be better control in movements and so I hate rolling accidentally. This is a good idea as I was using limbo and it does kinda irritates me that I keep phasing out/in to the rift every time a roll is performed while moving rapidly from 1 point to another.

[VentiGlondi]

You can still use rift walk for mobility, like you'd use roll. I don't understand what the fuss is all about

[OoharaSora]

8 minutes ago, VentiGlondi said:

You can still use rift walk for mobility, like you'd use roll. I don't understand what the fuss is all about

about jumping in and out the rift all the time?

Edited March 29, 2017 by OoharaSora

[VentiGlondi]

@OoharaSora I do it all the time, no problems here

[OoharaSora]

Bombard says hi every time I do it

[PsychedelicSnake]

Something I've noticed with Limbo, @[DE]Danielle and @[DE]Rebecca. It may have just been a bug, but I feel it is worth mentioning.

Limbo can only attack enemies that he cast into the Rift. If another Limbo cast enemies into the Rift, you cannot attack those enemies even if you are in the Rift. You can only attack your own rifted targets.

[Aeon94]

First of all , Limbo should be immune to being nullified while in Rift but however Nullie bubbles deactivate passive energy regen.

Banish :

  - Limbo should Banish enemies and allies freely. No matter which plane he is in.

  - Tap / Hold feature for single and aoe banish could be nice

Stasis :

  - Stasis should have set duration like 10-15 sec ( not affected by duration mods ).

Surge :

 - Seems decent, no change.

Passive + Cataclysm :

 - Rift Mastery =  ( no change )

 - Rift-Decay ( couldn't find a better name )  =

    * Limbo takes 1-2 HP dmg per sec as long as he stays in Rift and healing from Rejuvenation aura disabled while he is in Rift ( Life Strike or healing abilities still work )

    * Enemies also take 1% of their max HP as dmg per sec ( or every 3 secs ) and slowed by 25% while in Rift ( values are not affected by mods )

    * Rift-Decay won't affect enemies as long as they are under Stasis effect.

 - Cataclysm =

   * Additional damage based on 10% of current HP and Shield of all enemies in Rift " needs to be removed. ( He shouldn't be a nuke frame in the first place )

   * Applies Rift-Decay effect on enemies as long as they stay in Cataclysm.

   * Nullies don't destroy Cataclysm, instead make Cataclysm collapse faster on touch

 

Edited March 29, 2017 by Aeon94
Removed Rift-Decay's effect on Limbo

[(PSN)Lei-Lei_23]

Limbo can still roll in midair. He only Megaman Dashes on the ground if you tap roll, correct?

If so, you're not missing out imo. The current Rift Walk mechanic is viable.

edit: I'm only speaking in regard to, say, speedrunning with Limbo. Nt necessarily for the sake of input-comfortability/form-factor. However, for us on PS4 double-tapping the L1 button is to roll. I was concerned about Limbo's "dodge" for a very long time until I saw video footage that the Rift Walk mechanic is ground only. 

For the purposes of my speedrunning muscle memory with Limbo, I can adapt.

And yes, for us on PS4 crouch, roll, and slide are all on L1.

Edited March 29, 2017 by (PS4)Lei-Lei_23

[Syndrella]

I am agree with the banish would be nice to change to single and more target it is simply like ivara's quiver,

The others are not likely he could be immune to be nullified but the hp lose in rift is just a unfun drawback which puts limbo back in the evolution so for that I say a no.

 

The cataclysm is now scaling well and every other frame abilities should do the same if we wish to avoid the Oberon and WoF flaws on higher levels.

[Xardis]

I dont agree with the Decay part if it comes to damage Limbo or allies. It wont be fun and its not good with lore - Limbo is a Master of Rift - what is rift? We know about other dimentions, datascape and Void. Since datascape is a virtual construct we cant compare it to the Rift. That leaves void. Void is full of harmfull energies that leave their victims dead or insane, exept for few, those are Tenno and Warframes. Tenno and Warframes take power from the Void, just like from the Rift. Its safe to say that Rift is a borderworld, as much a part of realspace as Void. So what should happen is Tenno regaining energy faster and enemies going insane. I suggest to make Enemies that 0.25% of their max HP of damage as a Radiation every 0.25s with 50% chance on each damage instance to get procced with radiation that lasts for as long as they are in the rift and 7s from the moment they exit it.

If you insist on self damage to Limbo - there can be something like this. Your energy pool in the Rift is unlimited but for each 50 energy over the max you take 1 damage every 4s. When you die due to damage from Rift overload you create a Cataclysm and loose all your energy.

As to Cataclysm dealing damage, I dont see a problem. Leave it be.

Other suggestions - I completly support them.

Edited March 29, 2017 by Xardis

[Aeon94]

2 minutes ago, Syndrella said:

I am agree with the banish would be nice to change to single and more target it is simply like ivara's quiver,

The others are not likely he could be immune to be nullified but the hp lose in rift is just a unfun drawback which puts limbo back in the evolution so for that I say a no.

 

The cataclysm is now scaling well and every other frame abilities should do the same if we wish to avoid the Oberon and WoF flaws on higher levels.

Cataclysm's scaling dmg still exists with Rift-Decay but not like aoe-nuke

[Aeon94]

16 minutes ago, Xardis said:

I dont agree with the Decay part if it comes to damage Limbo or allies. It wont be fun and its not good with lore - Limbo is a Master of Rift - what is rift? We know about other dimentions, datascape and Void. Since datascape is a virtual construct we cant compare it to the Rift. That leaves void. Void is full of harmfull energies that leave their victims dead or insane, exept for few, those are Tenno and Warframes. Tenno and Warframes take power from the Void, just like from the Rift. Its safe to say that Rift is a borderworld, as much a part of realspace as Void. So what should happen is Tenno regaining energy faster and enemies going insane. I suggest to make Enemies that 0.25% of their max HP of damage as a Radiation every 0.25s with 50% chance on each damage instance to get procced with radiation that lasts for as long as they are in the rift and 7s from the moment they exit it.

As to Cataclysm dealing damage, I dont see a problem. Leave it be.

Other suggestions - I completly support them.

Rift-Decay only affects Limbo , didn't want him to sit in Rift indefinitely :/

Its like " My fellow tenno , I use myself as anchor for Rift and sacrifice myself for team's success and transfer energy from Void to you " :D

Hmm Radiation damage seems right since Void causes mental disorder but every 0.25 sec sounds a bit too much , every sec sounds better :B

Like I said in other post , Cataclysm still deals blast dmg and applies Rift-Decay ( scaling dmg ) but not like aoe-nuke as it is now.

" According to his associated questline, the original Limbo Warframe that the player obtains information about (and subsequent blueprints from the data) died while crossing into the rift plane, in which Ordis insists the player be more careful as to not repeat the same mistake. "

^ Rift-Decay idea came after my mind after I saw this.

What could go wrong ? maybe he stayed really long time in Rift and it affected his body in a bad way ? or just died suddenly ?

I didn't want him to get insta-killed by Rift but instead thought a decay effect could be interesting :)

 

Edited March 29, 2017 by Aeon94

[Clonmac]

I completely disagree with the statement that Cataclysm makes Banish obsolete. I find myself using Banish/RiftSurge way more than Cataclysm, especially later in the game. It just gives you way more control over who is in the rift with you and gives you way more mobility. I still use Cataclysm if there are a ton of enemies all clumped up in one spot or if a teammate is down I can freeze everyone around him so that he can return to battle without chaos around them.

But Banish/Rift Surge provides several things that Cataclysm does not.

1) Banish allows me to specifically control when an enemy is brought into the rift with me. If I have a whole line of enemies frozen in the rift with me and an additional mob is moving by in the material plane, I can choose to have them in the rift with me or not. This goes for my teammates as well. Sometimes a teammate may have an extremely rapid fire weapon that kills my stasis duration too quickly. Using Banish allows me to leave them in the material plane and gives me more time within the rift. It also allows me to provide more CC benefit to my teammates because of this.

2) Banish also allows me to be more mobile. This is critical because often placing down a Cataclysm in a single area is not enough and will only capture a few enemies in it while leaving large amounts of enemies outside it that your teammates have to worry about. I can now move way down the enemies spawn path and control large chucks of enemies within the rift. If more spawn, then I can easily bring them in with me too. This brings me to my next point.

3) The enemies know about Cataclysm. They see it and they often avoid moving into it immediately or at all. This limits you capability and often results in needing to re-position Cataclysm into a new area if you want to control more enemies. This can be cumbersome, energy inefficient, and annoying for your teammates. With Banish, enemies don't change their pathing when near another enemies that are in the rift. So this allows me to bring in new enemies as their move about. With Cataclysm, it would often result in me needing to re-position Cataclysm.

4) Banish has an awesome synergy with Shade or Huras kubrow. I'll use Banish and Rift Surge as usual to bring in new enemies, but then if I want to move to a new area or bring in new enemies after all are dead in the rift, I just wait a couple seconds next to an enemy while I'm in the rift and I go invisible. I can them spam Banish while in the material plane being invisible. This allows me to place a bunch more enemies in the rift without taking any fire. I then just pop back into the rift and continue my killing spree. I almost never take return fire while using Banish as Limbo and it is a great technique to use at any level and scales indefinitely. I used to do this a lot with the old Limbo, but now that Banish is uni-directional and AoE, it works even better now. This tactic doesn't work well with Cataclysm because of its static and shrinking nature.

5) Similar to number 3 above, but I feel it deserves its own point, when using Cataclysm with Stasis, new enemies never enter the bubble far enough for you to be able to kill them in time before Cataclysm shrinks and puts them back in the material plane. I believe this is a clear game design intended to limit Cataclysm in this regard. This is what makes Banish often a better option than Cataclysm. After you've killed all the enemies in Cataclysm, often the best option to kill more enemies is to just replace Cataclysm. This can be very risky depending on what is outside the Cataclysm because you will be placed back into the material plane. You don't need to worry about that if you used Banish/Rift Surge.

6) As others said, nullifiers are a pain for Limbo's Cataclysm. As soon as their bubbles come in contact, you're screwed and often you may not even see a nullifier and then all of a sudden you and all the enemies are in the same material plane and you're dead. Using tactic #4 above, I can get around this difficulty by simply using Banish and Rift Surge instead. I don't need to worry about a surprise nullifier because I'll only be removed from the rift if I come in contact with a nullifier myself. This provides more control and better protection that Cataclysm simply can't provide. Often, because of this Cataclysm won't even be an option. Meanwhile, I can continue going about adding more enemies to the rift with Banish. After I have a bunch of enemies in the rift, I can jump in to kill the nullifier on its own and then quickly jump back into the rift after he is dead. It is a much safer way of dealing with nullifiers.

 

I find myself using Banish/Rift Surge much more than Cataclysm. I don't find it any more clunky than the constant casting of abilities that the old Limbo had to do to keep his ability durations up. At least now Limbo isn't restricted as much by duration which gives much more freedom within the rift to make decisions based on the situation. It also gives him much more freedom in modding since duration isn't as critical.

[Vannell]

16 hours ago, Granondaddy said:

the Haven Augment for Banish doesn't work at all.

16 hours ago, Granondaddy said:

I was doing testing to see if an ally walking through Limbo's portal when he dashes, would give him the health from Haven

The Augment for Banish (Limbo's first ability)

You just said it. It won't work for the Rift Portal. Because it's not it's first ability.

I'll also add as a clarification that the Rift Portal does the same thing but does not comes from the player actively using Banish ability.

Edited March 29, 2017 by Vannell
Clarification

[(XBOX)CannyJack]

I'd just like to have the ability to separate Crouch, Roll, and Slide on Xbox (for me, at least, it's just two options: tap to roll, hold to crouch; double tap just does two rolls). That way I won't inadvertently roll -- and change Rift state -- when I meant to crouch, or vice versa.

Edited March 29, 2017 by (XB1)CannyJack

[(XBOX)CannyJack]

1 hour ago, Ultimate_Vault_Hunter said:

I haven't played her, and I won't, not even as mastery fodder. 

Likewise. I skipped Nidus, I can skip Octavia. 

[(XBOX)CannyJack]

6 hours ago, Talvu said:

Honestly I use to enjoy playing the old Limbo, all he needed were some quality of life tweaks and that is it. Now I don't enjoy playing him at all, honestly they should have just created a whole different frame if this is what they were going to do. He feels clunky and I absolutely hate the roll to enter/exit the rift mechanic as I'm constantly in the wrong plane due to me trying to use roll like I would with any other frame. Great job ruining a frame.

I've been weighing whether NuLimbo will be worth retraining my muscle memory as far as controls. I have, like I bet all of us have, grown quite comfortable with the traditional crouch/roll/slide parkour. Having that changed to not roll, and also include a crucial Limbo ability, would be a nuisance, though I imagine I could get used to that.

What is less attractive is that he's looking like he'd need a new controller layout to capitalize on his abilities. I've become accustomed to my specific controller layout over hundreds of hours of play, which does not lend itself to rapidly casting multiple powers or setting up complex power-use order -- I can't do the various multi-step power techniques described in various spots here without requiring upward of a dozen button presses, and that means they'll be easy to screw up, and probably take more time to do than the powers themselves will last. 

I've got, I dunno, like 25 other frames that don't need that level of interaction, and despite how cool I think Limbo is as a concept, I'm not sure there's any reason to relearn controls just for him.

Edited March 29, 2017 by (XB1)CannyJack

[DinendalMinyatur]

13 minutes ago, Aeon94 said:

Rift-Decay only affects Limbo , didn't want him to sit in Rift indefinitely :/

Hey I've quoted your post in another thread but I want to add my thoughts on staying in Rift indefinitely.

Well first of all you can stay in Rift indefinitely but it is detrimental to player. You need to collect pick-ups, interact with consoles, smash containers etc so you need to get out of rift occasionally . Also to use banish you need to switch to material plane too.

Also I thought again and I believe Hp decay on an already squishy frame is a bad idea imo.

 

[Aeon94]

2 minutes ago, DinendalMinyatur said:

Hey I've quoted your post in another thread but I want to add my thoughts on staying in Rift indefinitely.

Well first of all you can stay in Rift indefinitely but it is detrimental to player. You need to collect pick-ups, interact with consoles, smash containers etc so you need to get out of rift occasionally . Also to use banish you need to switch to material plane too.

Also I thought again and I believe Hp decay on an already squishy frame is a bad idea imo.

 

Hmm I should have consider those facts.

Focused on " staying in Rift indefinitely " idea and wanted to add something from his lore to reduce his effectiveness a bit while make him immune to Nullies. :(