[Update 20] Limbo Revisited Feedback Megathread

[Xardis]

35 minutes ago, Aeon94 said:

Rift-Decay only affects Limbo , didn't want him to sit in Rift indefinitely :/

Its like " My fellow tenno , I use myself as anchor for Rift and sacrifice myself for team's success and transfer energy from Void to you " :D

Hmm Radiation damage seems right since Void causes mental disorder but every 0.25 sec sounds a bit too much , every sec sounds better :B

Like I said in other post , Cataclysm still deals blast dmg and applies Rift-Decay ( scaling dmg ) but not like aoe-nuke as it is now.

" According to his associated questline, the original Limbo Warframe that the player obtains information about (and subsequent blueprints from the data) died while crossing into the rift plane, in which Ordis insists the player be more careful as to not repeat the same mistake. "

^ Rift-Decay idea came after my mind after I saw this.

What could go wrong ? maybe he stayed really long time in Rift and it affected his body in a bad way ? or just died suddenly ?

I didn't want him to get insta-killed by Rift but instead thought a decay effect could be interesting :)

I edited my post before you wrote it. I agree with you as to not make Limbo sit in the Rift all the time. But simple damage per sec would just scare Limbo to walk into it in the first place. Thats why damage for extra energy since Rift restores energy and give you 10 per enemy killed. This way you have to actively check if this wont backfire on you. On that note, 5 damage per 50 energy extra every 4 sec would be more fitting. 1 is way too small.

On the Overenergy idea. All energy over the max deals damage every 4s to you but when you exit the Rift, it makes AoE banish in 5m radius with energy converted as extra damage to banished enemies. All Overenergy is lost when you exit Rift. Only Limbo can get Overenergy.

As to damage, I decided to split it up into smaller chunks, 1% over a sec, 0.25% 4 times a sec. The damage is the same, what matters is 50% rad chance. I can even make rad chance smaller. The point is that once you get proced you are till you exit. Even with 10% base you have only 28% statistical chance to not get procced in 3 sec. 10% would make more sense as I think now.

Cataclysm is a tricky issue. I dont think that without scaling damage it would be usefull at all. I would agree with not scaling damage if you had idea of other thing to give Cata.

Edited March 29, 2017 by Xardis

[Xardis]

One other suggestion. Make roll and riftdash separate, rebindable actions.

[DawnoftheWhiteFury]

I love the rework aside from the change to Banish. Being forced to be in the same material plane now feels really clunky, and to me it makes Banish only useful for defending Rescue targets and such. Instead of a cone AOE and being forced to be in the same material plane, I personally believe Banish should operate on the Ash Bladestorm Mark system instead, where you mark targets to Banish before proceeding to Banish marked targets and it drains per target. Gives more control and you wont need to be in the same material plane.

[Ameijin-Grey]

• Limbo's powers are an eye sore.
  • Limbo players know this, and will harass squad members with their power spam.
    • Limbo also leaves portals around in which you have to dodge if you don't want to be in the rift.
      • That muted chanting sound effect every time Limbo decides to use his powers is way too prevalent and annoying. 

Please tone down with the visuals for his powers, and also get rid of that sound effect. 

[ChameleonBro]

On 3/27/2017 at 8:40 PM, Azamagon said:

Some more thoughts upon playing Limbo a lot more thoroughly:

Good points:
* Stasis - It is undoubtly fun, in a solo setting.
* Cataclysm - Great as a nuke, and it pairs insanely well with Stasis.
* Rift Dash - After finally getting more used to it, it is actually rather nice.

Bad points:
* Stasis - This ability is something I barely dare to use in multiplayer settings, due to the trolling feel it can have (even if it's unintended). And still, the lack of indicator bothers me.
* Cataclysm - The nuking potential is ... probably too good to have on Limbo. And I still don't like that it dispels Rift Dash
* Banish - I still feel it is currently something you can't use on highlevel play, except to remove enemies from the Rift when Rift Surge has been used first. Which means, it practically never sees any use.
* Rift Surge - Is too niche in its current use. Cataclysm is all you need for his AoE banishing, imo. In fact, Banish + Rift Surge is pretty much just a different form of AoE-banishing to Cataclysm. I.e., they are redundant. And redundancy was partly a reason to revamp his kit (even though, his old kit didn't have REDUNDANCY, just similarities. The new kit ACTUALLY has redundancies). You had 3 ways to put people into the Rift pre-rework. Now you have 4 abilities to deal with it, if you count his passive dash...
* Passive - The lack of movespeed bonus in the Rift (which was removed) hurts his mobility now when he can't use roll as a speed maneuver without getting himself in a harmful position. Reloadspeed bonus is also a bit sad to have lost, but not the worst of losses. The 10 energy per kill is superstrong, but mainly so because of how Cataclysm scales. If Cataclysm didn't scale in such a way, that energybonus would be completely fine. The Rift Tear also seem more annoying than useful to teammates, honestly.

Suggestions:
* Stasis - While fun to mess around with in solo, needs a change in penalty, due to how disruptive it is to your other allies. Considering his passive, I'd say, make it remove a small amount of energy over time (not interrupting energygains though, as it's not a channeled energydrain), with more drain the more enemies are caught. Now you actually have to deal with the enemies you have caught and actually make use of the passive kill-energygain.
* Cataclysm - Cataclysm's damage needs toning down. It's a bit overpowered. I didn't even have a good build on him and could nuke highlevel enemies without any effort, not to mention, from complete safety with Rift Dash.
Also, allow us to interact with consoles, life support, hacking and such if the item and the user are both in the Rift via Cataclysm.
Further, I'd change his Cataclysm augment to make his sphere non-shrinking, along with the time-extending bonus of course.
* Banish - I feel Banish needs to be reverted to how it was (Holdcast can still be some form of AoE-Banish, doesn't matter to me). However, I'd like it to have better synergy with Cataclysm: If you Banish a target which is inside Cataclysm, then that could ragdoll the enemy out of the sphere! This gives it an actual functional use for target control when used in Cataclysm, especially so to manage the new energycosts from Stasis.
* Rift Surge - Revert it, honestly. As boring as it was, it was far more practical. This would partially make up for the loss of Cataclysm's mega-nuking, but would now require Limbo to actually deal with enemies manually, rather than by easy P4TW-methods.
* Passive - Give him an indicator that he has Rift Dash active, and make it not cancelled by Cataclysm. Give him back his movementspeed bonus to make up for the loss that he can't as freely roll for mobility anymore. Possibly give him back the reloadspeed due to the fact that he needs to kill enemies manually in the Rift now. And lastly, remove the Rift Tears?
* EDIT: Rift in general, another idea, to further make up for the loss of Cataclysm losing its nuking power; Maybe make enemies in the Rift take some damage over time?

Actually he isn't all that good at nuking. Sure things without armor are easier to nuke but as soon as the enemy has armor he struggles with getting the butchers

[Ditto132]

Potential Spoilers from The Limbo Theorem quest
Having maining Limbo since I got him, I disagree with most of those changes.

The new Limbo reworks that DE have done, to be honest is close to perfect from my prespective as a Limbo player.
Limbo is mostly about deliberate strategies and utilizing the Rift.
To be honest, I feel that the Rift is much superior than that of Nullifier's bubble technology.

This is especially since Limbo's personality almost reflects my personality a lot.
Being very much always in "Limbo", daydreaming, lost in my own thoughts or anti-social as my friends said.
Loves Math and Science very much, do out of ordinary things or actions that can catch people when they least expected.
Witty and slighly mischevious.
From Ordis:

Spoiler

More parts to the story. My word, he is a magician of logic. Just when I think his diffraction principle is full of dangling ratios, he expresses his dynamic constant in pure numbers. I never saw it coming.

 

1 hour ago, Aeon94 said:

Banish :

  - Limbo should Banish enemies and allies freely. No matter which plane he is in.

  - Tap / Hold feature for single and aoe banish could be nice

Doesn't really need much changes right now.
Although it is good to be able to banish regardless of which planes Limbo is in, it would make it problematic when trying to banish/unbanish targets, especially during chaotic situation.
Tap/Hold feature might be good, but holding for AOE banish could be deadly for Limbo in critical time.
I would suggest keeping the current tap implementation but modify it to be context sensitive instead.
So tapping on a target would banish that single target, targeting the environment would banish all targets within certain radius from the targeted point.

2 hours ago, Aeon94 said:

Stasis :

  - Stasis should have set duration like 10-15 sec ( not affected by duration mods ).

Having fixed time duration would goes against Limbo being deliberate and strategic.
The current projectile limit is sufficient by itself.

2 hours ago, Aeon94 said:

- Rift-Decay ( couldn't find a better name )  =

    * Limbo takes 1-2 HP dmg per sec as long as he stays in Rift and healing from Rejuvenation aura disabled while he is in Rift ( Life Strike or healing abilities still work )

    * Enemies also take 1% of their max HP as dmg per sec ( or every 3 secs ) and slowed by 25% while in Rift ( values are not affected by mods )

    * Rift-Decay won't affect enemies as long as they are under Stasis effect.

//

from Lore standpoint , Limbo is Master of Rift and Distruptor of Space-Time Continuum but Rift still dangerous place for him to stay.

" According to his associated questline, the original Limbo Warframe that the player obtains information about (and subsequent blueprints from the data) died while crossing into the rift plane, in which Ordis insists the player be more careful as to not repeat the same mistake. " 

//

As for your Rift-Decay, it doesn't make much sense. Staying in the Rift is not dangerous, it is the act/process of traveling from different planes.
Similar to when performing any Time travelling or Space travelling(teleportation). Both the source and destination are not actually dangerous.
From Ordis:

Spoiler

Oh, wait, Limbo, no that's a mistake, you don't want to go there. It's too big a jump. You can't rift walk... ohh. Oh no.

Operator, I think I know why we're finding Limbo parts scattered throughout the system. His final rift walk was a miscal... disaster. Well, perhaps when you occupy this frame, you will use more... caution.

 

2 hours ago, Aeon94 said:

 - Cataclysm =

   * Additional damage based on 10% of current HP and Shield of all enemies in Rift " needs to be removed. ( He shouldn't be a nuke frame in the first place )

   * Nullies don't destroy Cataclysm, instead make Cataclysm collapse faster on touch

I agree that Limbo should not be a nuke frame, I hate it when people exploiting it instead of playing with its Rift mechanic.
But from lore-wise, Catacylysm collapsing or the act/process of traveling from different planes itself can be dangerous as said above. Reason why enemies entering/leaving the Rift takes damage.

Overall, I would suggest that DE set a Mastery Rank requirement for Limbo and its quest, instead of trying to bring him down to be on-par with the rest of the frames.
This is due to the fact that Limbo and the Rift mechanic itself is complex and require more skill and a completely different playstyle than other typical frames.
Limbo is an unique frame and cannot be compared with most of the other frames.

P.S. I would suggest that you place the Limbo's quest related lore in spoiler.

[ChameleonBro]

On 3/27/2017 at 7:59 PM, Trichouette said:

With that casting range ? Wut ? Without mod you can cast at 35m, and the AOE is HUGE

Well I don't know, I can easily kill level 100 corpus crewmen, but everything depend on the number of enemies (which is a piece of cake against infected)

Maybe they also did this to prevent him from being immortal, you know, staying in the rift and bringing them into the rift, frozen, to be easily killed.

No counter to that, and no risk at all.

You can cast it from a range but there is no reason to since you have Cataclysm, Really no reason to use Banish

Anything without armor sure, but anything with armor and Limbo struggles to take out butchers let alone anything tankier

As for banishing I changed my mind. Rather than being unusable it is more of the fact that there is no reason to use it like I said before though what they could do is when you are in the Rift and if you banish someone from a different plane you can only do it on a single target. I've seen how ridicilously huge a Banish with AoE can get

[ChameleonBro]

On 3/27/2017 at 10:08 PM, DreamsmithJane said:

Please, no. The reason it exclusively banishes all targets from Limbo's current plane, aside from, y'know, logic, is that because it is multi-target now, there is a greater need to be certain of what the effects will be, without having the benefit of single-target clarity. It needs to work the same on all of those targets. You can't have a mixed group of enemies all swapping planes at once. They all need to go into one plane. Base it on the current plane of the primary target? Well, then you're forced to cast it on a specific target and not an area, which makes it clunkier. You also have the problem of enemies already in the plane you want them in walking in front of your target and either creating the opposite effect or forcing you to delay your cast and reposition (which might get you killed). You need to know that, after you cast Banish, those enemies cannot shoot you unless you plane shift again. Finally, since Limbo now has unlimited access to the rift, he needs a reason to have to leave it sometimes, which would not happen if Banish could also summon enemies into the rift with him. You can already do that indirectly with Rift Surge. Making Banish both AoE and a toggle, especially in light of his passive, is a terrible idea any way you slice it.

I changed my mind after testing Limbo a bit more and yeah, making it work as before with an AoE would be broken. I've seen how ridiculously big the AoE Banish is. They could make it so that if you banish someone that isn't in your plane you only make it single target as it used to be and when they are on the same plane it is an AoE

[ChameleonBro]

On 3/27/2017 at 9:02 PM, Clonmac said:

That's true, I'll admit that I said that and that I mis-worded the point I was making. I was mainly stating it in a way to champion the positives of this rework. I didn't intend for it to be taken that he can literally run around indefinitely invulnerable without consequence. A miscommunication that was caused by my wording, but my point still stands I think.

 

Do you really think they would give a warframe the ability to walk around permanently invulnerable with the ability to instant freeze groups of enemies and kill them without taking any return fire and without ever being removed from the rift? There is a clear reason why they require you to step outside of the rift now since he has so much power within the rift. You can't have the best of both worlds (old Limbo/new Limbo).

I think this whole entire discussion can be summed up like this:

Old Limbo: Old Limbo was extremely vulnerable both inside and outside the rift. His only option available to him at higher levels was to single target Banish enemies one at a time or utilize gimmicky Life Strike/QT/Rage builds to stay alive. This balanced his ability to remain always in the rift while pulling in enemies from the material plane since, ultimately, he didn't have any advantage over the enemy regardless of the plane Limbo was in aside from an increased damage boost from rift surge. Because Limbo could pull in material plane enemies from within the rift himself, a balance mechanism was in place for Limbo to return to the material plane for ammo replenishment purposes. This process was clunky since the casting times for Rift Walk and his other abilities were to long.

...people complained about Old Limbo not having any advantage over his enemies and that he was extremely vulnerable. People also complained that he couldn't pick up items within the rift.

New Limbo: New Limbo now has a huge advantage over enemies within the rift. He now completely dominates enemies that it are within this dimensional plane that he controls by freezing them in time. New Limbo can also now safely collect ammo from within Cataclysm which makes ammo management much easier. A balance mechanism is now in place that forces Limbo to be in the material plane briefly to banish enemies to the rift plane. Entering and exiting the rift is now much faster and smoother since it is passive to dashing and not an ability. The Banish mechanism can work through walls and around corners and has very forgiving targeting and range.

...people are complaining that Limbo has to take himself out of the rift plane that he completely dominates and essentially can't die in.

 

You see, people what people are essentially advocating for is a warframe that combines the best of both Limbo's without realizing the reasons why both Limbos were designed with balance in mind.

I loved the old Limbo. He was always my favorite warframe. I always spent 99% of my time in the rift. I loved his mechanics. When I heard he was getting reworked, I was nervous that he'd be changed for the worse. Initially in my testing with Limbo, I was very afraid that they ruined him. But, now that I fully understand his new mechanic and have become accustomed to using it, I firmly believe he is in a much better place than he was. I'm not saying he is perfect as is. Any bugs discovered should certainly be fixed and any gimmicky or overpowered damage calculations should be balanced. But I don't think you can objectively state that he isn't way better than he was.

Changed my mind after testing Limbo more, yeah it would be broken if he could do that, I've seen how large the AoE of Banish can be. Instead they could make it a single target when you try to Banish someone who isn't on your plane and AoE if they are on the same plane as you.

[Trichouette]

3 minutes ago, ChameleonBro said:

You can cast it from a range but there is no reason to since you have Cataclysm, Really no reason to use Banish

Unless using 25 energy instead of 100 ?

Or to target a specific bunch instead of the whole map (if you play with max range) ?

Or maybe to have an almost instant casting time instead of the very long cast of cataclysm (even with natural talent it's longer than banish) ?

I admit I tend to use cataclysm for a bit everything since limbo is an energy making machine but still I tend to rush out of the rift and simply banish everything that bother me.

4 minutes ago, ChameleonBro said:

Anything without armor sure, but anything with armor and Limbo struggles to take out butchers let alone anything tankier

Yes but it's still insane that he's able to explode a huge bunch of corpus and infected with one single key, it's like saying "pre-rework mag wasn't OP" even though she was able to destroy every corpus in a 50m radius with one key.

 

On a side note, you know that you can answer to many people in a single post right ? No need to post 4 times in a row

[ChameleonBro]

So after testing Limbo for a bit more I had quite the change in thoughts. 

I was mainly disappointed in his Banish change but seeing what we got, how good it is and how Limbo works now, I am glad it is like this. Being able to Banish enemies even when in the Rift right now would be BROKEN. I have seen how ridiculously huge the AoE on Banish it can get. It can get as big as an actual Cataclysm, so yeah it would be really broken if you could banish anything regardless of what plane they are HOWEVER, it doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't be able to

DE should just make it so that it is an AoE effect when someone is in the same plane as you, and if not make it single target like the old banish, so that if someone goes in the rift they can isolate 1 target from the material plane, not an entire group.

His Rift Surge seems bugged but after seeing Brozimes review of Limbo on YouTube, it seems it is working correctly as he was able to kill enemies off a lot quicker than without using Rift Surge. Though it still doesn't do what the description says it does, and that is after killing someone damage enemies in a chain reaction.

In Conclusion, Limbo is really good, I mean REALLY good, I just think people have to play him a bit more to understand this. 

[Marine027]

Only thing i can say is some visual whould be nice of how big the banish is, some impact effect or so.

[Vactro]

Nice idea the one target banish, but don't think it'll happen :/

[Genoscythe]

As someone who liked the old limbo too (somehow) I can also only say I love the new limbo. His CC is superior and the damage scales well if you get enough enemies into the rift. His isolating skills are not as good though and I miss that. However I agree that the way banish works now is balanced and making it work so you can pull enemies into the rift while being there would be OP.

[Skaleek]

Limbo is great although his ability to be inside the rift is all of his survivability and reverting the ability to be in the rift while also inside a nullifer bubble hurt him for viability against high level corpus... Oh well, still love the rework personally.

[PsiWarp]

I am okay with the new Banish, since Stasis is now a thing Limbo has all the CC he needs to deal with multiple enemies.

However, I wish they would put a few short-and-sweet tips on why something doesn't work based on the situation. Like Banish, it just says "Invalid Target" when trying to cast on targets in the opposite plane, so maybe help the player out and say "Requires Target in Same Plane"? Likewise with Rift Surge, say "Requires Target in Rift".

[AerinSol]

4 hours ago, PsychedelicSnake said:

Something I've noticed with Limbo, @[DE]Danielle and @[DE]Rebecca. It may have just been a bug, but I feel it is worth mentioning.

Limbo can only attack enemies that he cast into the Rift. If another Limbo cast enemies into the Rift, you cannot attack those enemies even if you are in the Rift. You can only attack your own rifted targets.

That explains a few things!

[Clonmac]

1 hour ago, ChameleonBro said:

Instead they could make it a single target when you try to Banish someone who isn't on your plane and AoE if they are on the same plane as you.

It is a good thought, but I think that would just make it more cumbersome and potentially dangerous to use. Part of what makes the new Banish so great is that I can just spam it like crazy knowing for sure what dimension I am sending my enemies to. If you make it as you suggested, you still have the problem that would essentially remove the spammability of it by making enemies bounce back and forth between dimensions if you target the wrong enemy in the wrong dimension. I often just spam the spell down a hallway sending all enemies to the rift and then preventing me from taking any fire because I am sending them to the rift before they're even in sight of me. With your suggestion, I wouldn't be able to do that because my reticle is essentially on enemies that are already in the rift and I'd just be bringing that enemies back into the material plane. Also, often times in a pinch I want to just send all enemies currently in the rift back to the material plane so that I can be safe in the rift with no other enemies. This change would make that very difficult to do because there would no doubt be more enemies in the material plane that would likely result in me just pulling more enemies into the rift which would be the opposite result that I'd want.

I understand that many would like Banish to be a bi-directional ability, but the more I've used it, the more I really do appreciate the fact that it is a uni-directional AoE ability now.

[chuckdm]

On 3/24/2017 at 4:03 PM, Thesiobhan said:

Being unable to banish people while in the rift just makes him play so slow, honestly can we just make banish do no damage and let it bring people in and out of the rift. I want to do fun rift shenanigans, and it feels really slow and clunky now. I have to drop out of the rift to bring people back in, which will be death at higher levels, honestly as I'm levelling him up, banish is just killing enemies straight out sadly. I  get the idea behind it, to not let him just stay in the rift forever and bring enemies in at his leisure, but there needs to be some different way of doing that, because this way doesn't feel fun. Maybe make it so he only can stay in the rift for X seconds that scales with power duration, and then has to drop out for a bit. I don't know.

As for me, the dashing in and out of the rift works fine, don't have a problem with that, just the fact that his 1 doesn't synergize well.

Disregarding shenanigans completely, I want to say I would be fine with this.  Banish simply doing no damage but working on both planes would be a completely acceptable compromise.

I do believe I understand why this change was made.  If you make Banish AoE, then obviously that means that if you already have one enemy banished, and cast it, and it works in either plane, you might accidentally unbanish the target you banished before by catching it in the AoE.

However, I feel the solution to this isn't to only allow one-way banish.  Perhaps which direction targets get banished would simply be chosen based on the status of the direct target (since banish still requires a target, and the AoE is just centered around that target.)  This way, enemies currently in the other plane would not get unbanished, instead only changing the plane of enemies in the same plane as the direct target.

This is a much more intelligent, if a bit less direct, way to handle this.  Otherwise, Limbo is one of the squishiest frames in the entire game, and leaving the rift long enough to banish targets means near-certain suicide.  This is true even on higher Star Map missions such as Sedna where bleed procs alone will quickly kill him.  I shudder to think how he plays now in sorties or trials.  Yikes!

[DaftMeat]

On 3/25/2017 at 9:44 PM, Zoh_Veldae said:

Just to add a bit more to the test: Grineer Napalm flame blasts don't hit you while in the Rift but they do hit your Sentinel.

I've been experiencing the same. I often find that sentinels are not crossing over into the rift with me when I dash, and they remain vulnerable.

[Frenjo]

All I can say is, I just want banish the way it was... Would solve a huge amount of the problems with it.

[OoharaSora]

8 hours ago, (PS4)Lei-Lei_23 said:

Limbo can still roll in midair. He only Megaman Dashes on the ground if you tap roll, correct?

If so, you're not missing out imo. The current Rift Walk mechanic is viable.

edit: I'm only speaking in regard to, say, speedrunning with Limbo. Nt necessarily for the sake of input-comfortability/form-factor. However, for us on PS4 double-tapping the L1 button is to roll. I was concerned about Limbo's "dodge" for a very long time until I saw video footage that the Rift Walk mechanic is ground only. 

For the purposes of my speedrunning muscle memory with Limbo, I can adapt.

And yes, for us on PS4 crouch, roll, and slide are all on L1.

Nope, he dashes into the rift in mid-air too

[Acersecomic]

I had to spend half the damn alert doing backflips cuzz of some @$$hat who kept following me around in his Limbo casting rift at me... Not the first time.
We need something to prevent this kind of stupid sh1t.

I say give us a toggle in the options for "allow Limbo's Rift only from people from Clan/Friends. That way we can avoid being harrassed by people who got nothing better to do without actually hurting the game or the playing experience for anyone but the harrassers.

[failedtodiet]

Maybe DE should add "press E to pay respects enter" the rift

[Valletta]

I mean I appreciate that you can roll to get out of the rift, but I will always hate Limbo and DE for putting him with those powers because it is the most annoying thing in the universe.