Zenith feedback

[Tau.]

Title.

The way the Zenith switches back to auto fire mode seemingly randomly half the time, ruins the weapon for me with massive trust issues. The weapon would be great, if it didn't feel like it was actively trying to sabotage you. I can't rely on a weapon if I can't count on it to not constantly betray me. 

I get that the whole sundial weapon (login reward) series revolves around the concept of deploying a disc somewhere, but for playability's sake please consider converting it to a straight Stradavar/Zarr manual fire mode switch type, because it's a colossal pain to deal with a weapon that has a mind of its own, and an uncooperative one at that. Primary fire is weak and a null-bubble shredder at best (no sugarcoating it), but the alt fire is great. What's not great is when you mean to use the alt fire, and it decides to switch back to the auto mode after half a second and you're tickling a target you were supposed to have domed. 

 

Times where it says in semi-auto for a good 20+ seconds, you're left glaring at your weapon data wearily, thinking "ok when's it switching itself back? I'm READY to get trolled any second now >:l" or stopping to perform a finnicky fire mode switch back and forth, in futile hopes to refresh whatever mysterious random timer it appears to operate on. 

 

Proposal:

If you guys are just absolutely hellbent on keeping the disc deployment theme a thing, have the disc stay out in about the same space your sentinel is, widen its vision range a bit (compensate for the loss of pathetic ~4m max distance it could be tossed out to begin with), and have it follow you like a sentinel. The entire time. Don't have it come back on its own, of its own accord. Ever. Only when you, yourself, of your own free will and manual command, switch back to auto fire mode. No other time.

 

Being forced into extra, random work with no warning just to stay in the fire mode you choose is not enjoyable. If that sounds too good for a 500 day login reward, put it on a SET timer, but at least make it consistent and actually visible to us. Anything but this mysterious ticking time bomb, betrayal-waiting-to-happen we have on it right now. 

 

For real, if this sounds like mere complaints, try having some of your employees around the office enact a sniper type playstyle and assign someone to randomly swap their weapon out for a wet noodle on half the shots they line up. They'll get tired of it real quick. 

[Xekrin]

43 minutes ago, SpaceBad said:

put it on a SET timer, but at least make it consistent and actually visible to us.

This has been requested since day one (or day 500 rather?) so it may get a buff icon at some point in the near future.  If not, keep complaining, because DE really should start making sure every buff has a duration icon easily visible.  Still waiting for the naramon one, though I imagine that'll come with the focus 2.0 update.

---

Is it weird that I glanced at the title and read it as zenistar, not zenith and 'thrust issues' rather than trust? Hmm.

[0meg4x]

So, I feel like telling you people my thoughts on this 500 days Login Reward so far.

 To begin with, I would like to thank the whole team behind the idea for this weapon.

 

 The weapon's Primary Fire feels like an actual Assault Rifle, It has some serious camera shake if not Aiming (Right Mouse) though.

 I think it could do with some more damage but it's Okay as it is, because this fire mode is meant to be Status based.

 

 In the other hand, the Semi-Auto aspect of the weapon deals quite a nice amount of damage based on critical hits, though I don't find myself using this mode as much because of the 1 second fire rate which is just exasperating.

 The mini-reload animation when switching to Semi-Auto is misleading because I feel like I ran out of Ammo instead and it's Reloading automatically. 

 It's really weird because you can fire the weapon while this animation is playing.

 Also, there seems to be a problem with this weapon's fire rate which doesn't allow you to toggle Fire Mode or swap weapons between Fire Rate delay (See bug report link below).

 

 The Radar Disc seems to use the same function as the Synthesis/Scanner, this one really needs to be checked out because it is not working as intended, you are unable to see enemies behind most walls/closed doors.

 

I personally think this weapon's needs are:

• Maybe increase Primary damage some more again... Just probably xD

 

• Reduce Primery Fire camera shake a bit.

 

• Increase Semi-Auto Fire Rate from 1 to 1.50 to at least match the current Snipers, 1 second doesn't fit close/medium range combat as you are supposed to see and kill enemies with Radar Disc's help (20 meters?).

 

• Remove the mini-reload animation when switching to Semi-Auto by maybe making the weapon drop a duplicate of the Disc instead of the actual magazine?

 

• Make it so the Fire Rate doesn't affect the fact that you can and cannot switch Fire modes or swap weapons.

 

• Radar Disc/Scanner mechanic needs revision because it fails to work as intended in most cases.

Edited May 3, 2017 by 0meg4x

[Darkvramp]

also the radar disc needs to not have a timer, if i want the semi auto to end, i will end it, not some timer.

[MortalMercenary]

I do not yet have the Zenith but am very underwhelmed by what i have seen so far on what it can do as a 500 day login reward, that is a long time for someone to dedicated themselves to this one game, even if a person is merely loging in everyday and only getting the reward aside from maybe one day a week where they do the dailies and level some stuff that is still a lot of time to give to a game to get this very lack luster weapon. When you look to the Zenistar the 300 login reward its an excellent utility weapon that doesnt quite do the amount of damage other primaries can do but has the successful utility to back it up. But maybe DE just has a bit of a hard time giving primary and secondary weapons good utility mechanics, or maybe its just the mods that Melee has access to.

[taiiat]

• Semi-Auto definitely shoots much too slowly for practicality, since it's Damage per Shot is about half of that of a Sniper Rifle, yet shoots even slower than they do. ~1.6 probably the best choice.
• Assault Rifle mode is uh... just generic to say the least, we have a lot of 'middle everything bullet hose' and adding another one doesn't help things.
  ergo if it's so generic, can it actually be good? having a few options in this style can be good, but lots of them... just ends up being the same as each other.
• Rate of Fire affecting the Toggle and even weapon Switching definitely sounds like a bug/unintended thing.

Edited May 3, 2017 by taiiat

[Madway7]

The inconsistency is likely because the disc takes damage and switches you back when destroyed.

[Omnipower]

11 minutes ago, Madway7 said:

The inconsistency is likely because the disc takes damage and switches you back when destroyed.

if thats true that makes it even worst its not like the disc itself does any dmg, game shattering utility or amazing new thing. So the health on disc(destructible) is really unwarranted unless DE plans on changing it to do something way more beneficial or atleast bring it on par with zenistar as it is i still believe azima and zenistar a better option to the zenith.

Ranking of usefulness of login weapons(my opinion): Zenistar>Azima>Zenith   I only say zenistar better than azima cause of azima's bullet economy and the fact you doing dmg with the disc while you melee with zenistar

[Madway7]

So I'd like to start of by saying thank you to DE for buffing the weapon, seriously before it felt unusable to me. Now it's a pretty fun weapon to even take into sorties.

Now while playing with it some more post buff I have some suggestion for some final QoL changes and buff suggestions for it.

Add some punchthrough to the primary fire(like 0.5 or 1m) since adding punchthrough mods to the weapon makes the disc either go through the floor sometimes.

(Or just make punchthrough mods not affect the disc, but in this case I would prefer the primary having some come innate because it doesn't benefit the secondary fire at all to add a mod for it)

Buff the secondary modes fire rate to 1.5, which is the fire rate most if not all snipers have in the game. 

Disc QoL changes:

Make the disc invulnerable to damage please it feels annoying to randomly changing back to auto mode sometimes.

Buff the range of the disc effect to 30 - 50m

Work on the punchthough in regards to some tilesets as some objects and parts within them don't allow your bullets to get through in the secondary fire mode.

(For example the doors/walls that seperate the main objective part of Grineer hijack missions)

Regarding the disc and its timer I have 2 suggestions, either:

Buff the disc timer to 30 seconds and put the timer up like the Zenistar.

Or

Remove all notions of a timer on the disc, but make it only retrieve if you either go outside of the effect radius or maybe a higher radius (like 50+m or something) or if you press the alt fire to manually retrieve it. 

In this case the disc should act like the Zenistars disc. Never exploding (which has 0 effect outside of just a visual effect anyways), but instead always being retrieved. Though in this case there wouldn't just be a delay for the effect to go up, but also a small delay before going back to the other mode.

 

Edited May 4, 2017 by Madway7

[Azamagon]

I'd suggest some alternate stuff for it (all things at once, preferably):
1) Make the disc fly straight forward (no arcing), until it hits something. With this longdistance deployment, the "sniper"-esque semiauto would shine even more.
2) Once the disc hits something, it doesn't bounce around first, it just deploys right away.
3) Make the disc have UNLIMITED duration, and to be indestructible. That makes launching the disc work both as a pure toggle mode and grant the utility it brings already.

Tada! :)

[(PSN)A_SimpleName]

I like to change the "Infinite" punch-through to actually work on all surfaces. Currently, I can't even shoot through an object (5m thick) if that object is deem impenetrable. It won't even be imbalance as the the weapon only have a 10m radius "see through wall". 

[Dr.Evergreen]

Freely switch between auto and semi auto, with unlimited time, by clicking alt-fire button like other guns.

the disc however have some timer like 30s, works individually with trigger mode.

it will just 'dead' or disappear when the time's up. only 1 disc can remain as if for now.

the collecting animation will only be played when you recover your disc manually.

so don't need to use thermal sight option? just keep the semi auto mode.

wanna see enemies beyond some walls but the disc is dead? double click alt-fire to shoot the disc again.

it's not that much comfortable -compare to other simple opinions-, but can make Zenith much more reliable weapon.

 

And all punch through mods MUST NOT AFFECT the disc.

this can solve some problems without giving innate punch through.

(or...just give 0.5m punch through to primary to bandaid...)

 

Love the unique feature of Zenith without these things...but want some QoL touch. that's all.

[Faulcun]

Im actually fine with it the way it is. However, when you recall the disk manually, I think it should explode, dealing damage

[Keiiken]

40 minutes ago, Chantepleur said:

And all punch through mods MUST NOT AFFECT the disc.

Why don't you want this? I want the disc to go through obstacles and give me greater vision.

[(XBOX)EternalDrk Mako]

43 minutes ago, Faulcun said:

Im actually fine with it the way it is. However, when you recall the disk manually, I think it should explode, dealing damage

yes please

[Kalvorax]

36 minutes ago, Keiiken said:

Why don't you want this? I want the disc to go through obstacles and give me greater vision.

because it will go through the floor on most maps...rendering it pointless to use

[(PSN)Quo_Tee]

Now that I've finally got my hands on this weapon I can finally give my honest opinion about the gun. In general I love this weapon, it feels and sounds amazing, even though Console has yet to receive the Zenith buffs I'm already pretty happy with where it's buffed stats currently stand.

However this weapon desperately needs QoL improvements on it's alternate fire mode that weren't addresed with it's most recent changes.

• The 20m range of the disc radar is just way too low to be practical, the most you can see through is just 1 wall, at that point you might aswell just move around the wall instead of waiting to see if an enemy moves towards you.
• 15 second timer seems to be completely pointless, why limit the amount of time the disc can be out for when we can just redeploy the disc in a split second?
• No HUD indication for the timer is rather annoying, often you'll forget how long the disc has been out for. Even the Zenistar has had a HUD indicator added.
• Enemy units can destroy the disc, even the Azima and Zenistar disc's are completely immune to enemy fire.
• 1.00 fire rate for the alt fire makes it very clunky, it can be fixed with the use of fire rate mods but that just makes the primary fire way too ammo inefficient.

Here are a few of my suggestions to improve the overall feel of the Zenith's unique mechanic.

• Increase the range of the radar from 20m to 40/50m, this way you'll be able to pin point enemies in adjacent rooms.
• Increase the time the disc can remain deployed from 15 seconds to 45seconds (same as Zenistar) or better yet allow it to remain out indefinietly since you're going to be forced to remain near the disc to get the radar's benefits.
• Add a HUD indicator for time of the Disc (only if DE don't decide to allow the disc to remain out indefinitely).
• Make the disc immune to enemy damage.
• Up the fire rate of the Semi-auto mode from 1.00 to 2.00 OR Increase the damage the Zenith Semi-auto mode deals when shooting through obstacles (gimmicky, but encourages the use of the alt fire without outright increasing it's base damage).

I know at this point I'm probably regurgitating previous suggestions made by this community and that DE will probably never take a third look at this gun, but for a 500 day login incentive it needs its common issues to be addressed, the Zenith is so close to being in a perfect place and the primary fire is in a perfect spot, it is only the secondary fire that is letting this weapon down.

Edited May 5, 2017 by (PS4)TheRainbowTurt1e

[Trichouette]

23 minutes ago, (PS4)TheRainbowTurt1e said:

The 20m range of the disc radar is just way too low to be practical, the most you can see through is just 1 wall, at that point you might aswell just move around the wall instead of waiting to see if an enemy moves towards you.

+1, it's ridiculous actually, and sometimes enemies don't even show through walls

23 minutes ago, (PS4)TheRainbowTurt1e said:

15 second timer seems to be completely pointless, why limit the amount of time the disc can be out for when we can just redeploy the disc in a split second?

+1 aswell, No point in giving the disc a timer when you can redeploy it that fast

23 minutes ago, (PS4)TheRainbowTurt1e said:

Enemy units can destroy the disc, even the Azima and Zenistar disc's are completely immune to enemy fire.

Really ? I didn't notice that...

24 minutes ago, (PS4)TheRainbowTurt1e said:

1.00 fire rate for the alt fire makes it very clunky, it can be fixed with the use of fire rate mods but that just makes the primary fire way too ammo inefficient.

I don't have a problem at all with this, HOWEVER, I do have a problem with the "infinite" punchthrough that isn't actually "infinite"

There are plenty of things you can't shoot through.

25 minutes ago, (PS4)TheRainbowTurt1e said:

OR Increase the damage the Zenith Semi-auto mode deals when shooting through obstacles (gimmicky, but encourages the use of the alt fire without outright increasing it's base damage).

That would be nice (even if it's absolutely against logic but who care this is warframe)

[Keiiken]

4 hours ago, Kalvorax said:

because it will go through the floor on most maps...rendering it pointless to use

I just point in the direction I want to see, loose the disc and let the lead fly.
It goes where you point the gun unless the object you aim at is too thick for the amount of punch through on it. Are you aiming at the floor?
Are you trying to get the disc centered on your position by bouncing off the ground?

[Dr.Evergreen]

13 hours ago, Keiiken said:

Why don't you want this? I want the disc to go through obstacles and give me greater vision.

Because sometimes it stucks and just disappear. I have no complaints if it is not.

[(PSN)MrNishi]

19 hours ago, Keiiken said:

I just point in the direction I want to see, loose the disc and let the lead fly.
It goes where you point the gun unless the object you aim at is too thick for the amount of punch through on it. Are you aiming at the floor?
Are you trying to get the disc centered on your position by bouncing off the ground?

The Punch-through is incosistent. 

It seems if the enemy if high-tension you can Punch-through to them regardless of Mountain terrain or thick walls.

But Glass and enemy not high-lighted means Semi-Auto fire does not Punch-through.

 

I can Punch-through that glass with a Punch-through mod on full Auto-flight but cannot Punch-through the locker and wall with same Mod on Primary Auto-flight.

 

Also the Corpus extraction that has a small Mountain ledge (Read Really thick wall) can be punched through if X-Ray enemy is highlighted but No amount of Punch-through mods allow me to shoot through that same Mountain Wall. (Also cannot hit enemies through Mountain Wall if they are not highlighted by disc.)

 

If the infinite Punch-through is only going to work on X-Ray disc highlighted enemies: I would either prefer more disc Range (Ideally 30m to match enemy sense/radar) or let Firestorm be slotted to increase X-Ray disc range.

I don't like Punch-through being limited if enemies are not high-lighted.

 

Side-note:

Would be nice if the damage increased with the more Punch-through needed to hit target. Given the slow fire-rate it would just allow Semi-Auto +Wall Hack to be a slow-paced delete key.

[Keiiken]

12 hours ago, Chantepleur said:

Because sometimes it stucks and just disappear. I have no complaints if it is not.

Weird , never had that happen or see it happen to someone else, woul;d rather have them fix that than remove punch through on the disc though.

 

[Faulcun]

I havent had any issues hitting enemies that arent highlighted by the disk, but i have noticed objects that i cannot shoot through, highlighted or not, that are much thinner compared to others that i can shoot through.... which doesnt make sense, or inconsistent as you say.

[(PSN)MrNishi]

44 minutes ago, Faulcun said:

I havent had any issues hitting enemies that arent highlighted by the disk, but i have noticed objects that i cannot shoot through, highlighted or not, that are much thinner compared to others that i can shoot through.... which doesnt make sense, or inconsistent as you say.

Incosistent or unreliable Punch-through mechanics are what is turning me off from this weapon.

Granted I don't have the PC Zenith buffs, but I don't think those stat tweaks will 'rekindle a passion that is not there.'

If the Disc had X-Ray Vision highlight was always infinite Punch-through regardless of environment terrain. But Semi-auto just had 2m Punch-through on non-highlighted enemies, I would be content.

As it currently stands: I have always been able to hit X-Ray highlighted enemies, but don't always have Punch-through on Semi-Auto mode. (Corpus Spy Vault where there are 2 Crewman type and 2 Shield Osprey inside the Laser corral...I cannot reliably get Punch-through on Semi-Auto mode to hit both targets with 1trigger pull even though they are lined up)

 

Like another thread called Zenith giving me Trust issues: The unreliable Punch-through is giving me Trust issues.

[(PSN)MrNishi]

Big +1

 

Those points you made I was willing to let slide if DE made the Punch-through consistent on Semi-Auto mode.

 

DE's response to this weapon reminds me of Velocitus fix/buff cycle.

Hoping the QoL tweaks are fully implemented without DE just throwing stat buffs at the Zenith.

•People complained about Velocitus being inaccurate and thus hard to kill enemies. DE responded by buffing stats not once, not twice, but 3 times. Then they finally also adjusted Smaller (common) AW enemy hitbox

 GU 15.2.1

 

Archwing Changes

 

• Updated Velocitus firing sounds.
• Reduced lens flare effect on Velocitus.
• Bigger hit effect on the Velocitus’ projectile.
• Small buff to Velocitus’ damage, included ability to sweep a sphere giving some ‘slack’ on the shot.

 

GU 15.6

Velocitus Buff

 

• Increased Magnetic Damage from 500 to 1200
• Increased Critical Multiplier from 2 to 3

 

GU 15.7.2

 

Archwing Changes

 

• Smaller Archwing enemies now have a slightly larger hitbox.
• Increased Velocitus’ damage from 1200 to 1800.