[U21 Megathread] New Warframe: Harrow

[EinheriarJudith]

52 minutes ago, Abekrie said:

His first ability needs to be spammed a bit more due to the narrow AoE it has. Could use small tweaks to the width of it.

Second ability sacrifices all shields while rooting you in place... for a small fire rate/reload buff... that only applies to yourself. The lifesteal only applies to Harrow's damage which could be a team-wide effect at a reasonable level considering how much he pays just to get this skill going.

Third one has a relatively small area of effect for allies to be near Harrow to benefit, and Harrow needs to be the one making the kills. Again, not a very support oriented role if he needs to compete against his team just for any payoff or reward.

Never had too much to complain about his fourth ability with perhaps some tweaks to the cast time. Going to try natural talent on it to see how that goes, but it's not a big deal compared to the other parts of his kit that could use some loving.

players need to be mindful about how they use condemn not just spam it like they've lost their minds. if you use penance right in front of a group of enemies you didnt use condemn on you deserve to be downed. also sentinels and kubrows have mods that allow them to instant heal your shields to full. they should have just followed suit with Thurible making it affinity range like penance and covenant. covenant has the perfect cast time because you are SUPPOSED to use it while under direct fire (meaning run into a mob of enemies and use it).

im not afraid to use survivability mods.

Edited July 3, 2017 by EinheriarJudith

[Buzkyl]

28 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

disagree. even if the energy you get back is 1. it turns into infinite energy because all harrow has to do is toggle the power once and then keep repeating. now what they could do is allow partial kill credit so he doesnt have to kill them himself but still has to land hits on them. no hit, no energy back. penance doesn't require killing and neither should thurible

The skill already has the possibility of infinite energy if harrow is constantly killing while the ability is active. Harrow being  forced to make the kills makes the skill have alot less of a support role than it should be. At higher levels this skill becomes less efficient as enemies get tougher to kill meaning there is a slower flow of energy than at lower levels.

[EinheriarJudith]

5 minutes ago, Buzkyl said:

The skill already has the possibility of infinite energy if harrow is constantly killing while the ability is active. Harrow being  forced to make the kills makes the skill have alot less of a support role than it should be. At higher levels this skill becomes less efficient as enemies get tougher to kill meaning there is a slower flow of energy than at lower levels.

thats why i offered up partial kill credit like marking enemies there are some possible ways they could handle this. the high lvl argument thats a classic one. they shouldnt try to balance a frame around enemy lvls that have gone beyond game balance. 

Edited July 3, 2017 by EinheriarJudith

[Buzkyl]

Just now, EinheriarJudith said:

thats why i offered up partial kill credit like marking enemies there are some possible ways they could handle this. the high lvl argument thats a classic one. they shouldnt try to balance a frame around enemy lvls that have gone beyond game balance. 

Even at level 60-80 (Sortie 1/2) the average grineer enemy as considerably alot more armor than their lower level counter part. This excludes enemy units and other special tanky units such as Drahks and the Cat ladies. Also at that level are the increase in eximii enemies such as energy drain whose drain counteract the energy restored by thurible very easily.

That's just grineer, Infested alot more eximi which blunders harrows limited energy pool. Also the increase spawns of Healers and disruptors.

Making harrow be the one to mark the enemy which allows allies to them to regen energy through thurible also does not stop the issue that Harrow is still competing for enemies with his own teammates in order to support them. A possible compromise that Chained enemies through Condemn or enemies than Attack harrow during Covenant's absorption phase also qualify for the thurible energy gain.

[EinheriarJudith]

45 minutes ago, Buzkyl said:

Even at level 60-80 (Sortie 1/2) the average grineer enemy as considerably alot more armor than their lower level counter part. This excludes enemy units and other special tanky units such as Drahks and the Cat ladies. Also at that level are the increase in eximii enemies such as energy drain whose drain counteract the energy restored by thurible very easily.

That's just grineer, Infested alot more eximi which blunders harrows limited energy pool. Also the increase spawns of Healers and disruptors.

Making harrow be the one to mark the enemy which allows allies to them to regen energy through thurible also does not stop the issue that Harrow is still competing for enemies with his own teammates in order to support them. A possible compromise that Chained enemies through Condemn or enemies than Attack harrow during Covenant's absorption phase also qualify for the thurible energy gain.

i've yet to run into the competition issue. as i often use syndicate weapons or aoe weapons. the issue i take from thurible is its very limited range and the need to kill. now when talking about squad kill power there is no negative for not seeing enemies on the field. it means the DPS in the squad are doing what they are intended to do. when they slow down in killing it will be due to lack of energy or enemy lvl has gotten really high. in that case they should be communicating as its the only way the person playing harrow will know what their energy is at. alot of frames powers loose potency when enemy lvl gets to high and that isn't at 80-100 its at 145-??. again i don't assume a squad is going to be unprepaired for a long fight and usually pugs dont stay that long anyway. sortie 1/2 are over in a blink of an eye depending on its modifiers and not enemy lvl unlike sortie 3 which will include enemy lvl and mission modifiers. using powers just to use them isn't effective. the only time i use thurible is when someone requests it or my own energy is getting low there is no other need to use it outside that

Edited July 4, 2017 by EinheriarJudith

[MetalCotton]

The problem with Harrow is that I don't feel like I'm contributing to the team, I don't feel like a Support. If I have to compete with my own teammates to do my job, then that's not being a Support, that's being dead weight. People don't want him to become the next Trinity, which is all fine and dandy. But perhaps out of fear of that, DE's afraid of giving him any leeway and in the end he's fairly lackluster as a result.

His 1 is a bit narrow, but it's fine if a little erratic when used anywhere other than firmly on the ground. It suits his playstyle of getting headshots because most enemies are positioned in a way after being chained that makes it hilariously easy to pop a few rounds in their heads and gain those lovely bonuses.

His 2 sacrifices his Shields_{(which wouldn't be a problem if you've got proper companion mods)} in exchange for a bit of a fire-rate/reload buff and lifesteal. While I've got nothing against shooting my way to better health, I wouldn't mind that fire-rate buff being sent to my allies at least. Dude's whippin' himself, cut him some slack.

His 3 is the friggin' problem ability, to me at least. You spend a few seconds spinning around your Thurible like a useless lump, building up on a counter that lets you steal energy when all is said and done. This is the part where it gets screwy, because the energy is ONLY restored when you're the one landing the final blow on the enemy. When you're the one that has to compete with your own teammates in order to make the most of this ability, it becomes kind of redundant as a result.

His 4 gives you a few seconds of precious invincibility, which can be a lifesaver if you've got someone downed and need to get your act together. I can't complain about this because it's a valuable ability if used at the right time.

[PsiWarp]

Aside from wanting Covenant to affect Companions too, I would love to be able to build Overshields on my Companion using Condemn if that's ever up for consideration.

[jinxeverything]

9 hours ago, D20 said:

I think that what you suggested would probably be too much for just early balancing purposes. Reworking the whole 3rd power and the mechanics added on Penance is kind of something better fitting for a rework. It goes a bit too far.

Not sure if Penance should replace lifesteal with shields. It would made Harrow less versatile. We already have a very good skill to regenerate shields : Condemn.

Adding lifesteal to covenant makes sense in your own change suggestion since you are removing the lifesteal from Penance, but I think Covenant is already strong enough so far.

The reason I'm going with that direction is becaus I feel like Harrow as a frame is still work in progress and not only that but he feels outdated to me :/

Anyway, since threads got merged I already gave DE my opinion and ideas for his rework whenever they are going to do it.

[Azimbee]

I've made a breakthrough. Polearm quick-melee consistently headshots. Penance's speed buff doesn't just affect guns, it affects melee, can confirm now.

Harrow is actually a good polearm frame. Spread the word. Specifically the Lesion.

I'm orange critting and running berserker on the Lesion. Let that sink in.

Edited July 4, 2017 by TheLegendTamer

[Grimmstyler]

Do Spectors count as kills for Harrows Thurible to produce energy? 

[Windy_Wind]

His 2nd and 3rd ability need changes so that they also affect teammates, seriously. A support frame that has to compete against others for the kills to support is a bad support. Another thing is if there is a trin in a team, those 2 abilities of his will be completely worthless.

Edited July 4, 2017 by Windy_Wind

[Bobtm]

Folks keep bringing up this very peculiar point;  Competing for kills.

If your allies are easily killing every single enemy before you can, then they don't need your support and probably never needed you as a squadmate in the first place.  That's part of the nature of support in a game that has an incredibly offensive skewed type of balancing model.

This is not a Harrow issue nor is it a flaw in his ability set.  Put any other existing frame into the situation where all of your 3 allies are auto-nuking everything before you can land a few kills and it's precisely the same end result.  If your allies don't need you, then they don't need you period.  Especially when going into random public runs there's always that chance you'll end up paired with multiple full spec forma'd DPS-focused allies, and in these cases if they are using efficient builds then it doesn't matter what frame or loadout you bring from the very outset of the mission.  In these situations you have 2 options;  Turn up the aggression and get out in front, ensuring that you get kills before they have a chance, or follow along behind them and just collect up loot.  This applies to all frames, not just Harrow.

The fact that Harrow has to actually engage enemies is part of why he's a good idea for this game, setting a better standard of player action for the support role.  Part of why Trinity is such a lousy design is precisely because she's an anti-interaction frame that provides insane results for almost zero action.  We don't need Harrow to become Trinity 2.0, we've got an uninteractive support frame that provides bonuses with no real mechanical expectation behind it.

Also, why do folks want to stand around doing nothing, but gaining a benefit from that nothing?  Because that's precisely the end result of allowing allied kills to do Harrow's work for him.  Changing him into a passive support completely defeats the point of him existing.  Trinity is the passive support frame already.

Harrow works wonders as a spearhead, so pick some spike damage weapons (snipers, shotguns, Lex P/ Euphona built for primary fire) with builds that you know can be used to instantly drop heavy units at high level, then get right out in the front of the fray.  The frame excels most when played very aggressively, if it's a non-endless mission stay near allies but at the front of the pack while progressing towards the objective.  You'll be able to keep everyone topped off rather easily on the way as long as you consistently stay at the head of the pack.  If it's a defense/mobile defense, move around so that you're either at a high point or a bit out (not out of Thurible/Affinity) and take firm hold of a spot. and drop anything that even tries to come through.

Despite being a support type frame, Harrow's best playstyle is in the realm of a vanguard.  This fills a playstyle niche that had yet to exist in Warframe.  Which is of course, the point of creating new frames.

9 hours ago, TheLegendTamer said:

Harrow is actually a good polearm frame. Spread the word. Specifically the Lesion.

I'm orange critting and running berserker on the Lesion. Let that sink in.

I noticed this as well, he's got outstanding synergy with many different melee weapons.  Most recently I've begun toying with a Condition Overload Lacera setup for Harrow and it too gets headshots very frequently.  While it's a login reward and thus not precisely easily accessible, the Zenistar is another wonderful tool for this frame.

Haven't tested out the Redeemer with him yet, but given its various stats and traits I'd imagine it too would be a wonderful and complementing melee option.

[ZhurZhur]

Ok so having played some of harrow he feels slightly under performing.

Ability 1: Looks great, works, and dose not need any changes besides maybe a slight increase to its width to make it more comfortable to use.

Ability 2: Works, and is pretty good although its a little annoying that you need to do damage to heal your team the only time this will really happens is if your team is killing the enemies too quickly. So if  the enemies are getting killed too fast for you to heal them its more then likely they don't need the heal so its really not a problem. As said by some people before me.

1 hour ago, Bobtm said:

 If your allies don't need you, then they don't need you period.

Ability 3: Same issues as the second ability with the the benefit it provides your team and the same reasoning why this is of little concern. However unlike the second ability this one feels awful to use and is very inconsistent. Doing nothing for a while is annoying enough but then the ability becomes unstoppable randomly or providing no buff is infuriating. The last complaint maybe due to a bug or it may just be my choice in input device (However i have never had such issues before). How to fix this ability I have no idea, when it works its great but getting it started feels awful. The problem is the awful part is the crux of the design and what makes the ability unique. I'm sure some people will come up with better solutions. Maybe make it a one handed action or just make it faster i don't know.

Ability 4: Little use in early missions but is great fun to use in latter missions. The funny thing is by using this ability effectively you provide a massive damage buff to your team making your second and third ability harder to use. I don't believe this ability needs any changes (no nerfs please) and is good where it is.

Passive: Its a thing, unless they add shield gating and some method to not die from poison and slash I could care less about some more shields. Harrow having some method to heal and gain shields is nice but its his forth ability and CC from his first that are going to keep him alive not extra shields. Also the heal form his second will keep him topped off. This is not an issue of the frame and is more of an issue of where the main damage in the end game comes from in my experience.

Conclusion: Harrow is great looking and his abilities (minus his third one) are a pleasure to use. All of the abilities have great potential and I look forward to putting in some forma to see how far I can push him in the future if some changes are made to this third ability which I personally abhor. I would give Harrow a nice solid 70% to 80% which is pretty good.

EDIT: Dose any one else think his alt helmet looks like he strapped a liset to his face I like it more then the default one but please tell me I am not the only one that sees it.

Edited July 4, 2017 by ZhurZhur
More info/ A spelling error

[Papragu]

Harrow would be great if one wouldn't have to focus on timers running out all the time. Thurible could use some changes.

Thurible:

Channeling should be removed and turn it into a simple takes 50% of energy and returns 20 energy per kill, lasts for 15-20 seconds. Or give us the ability to attack during channeling.

Range in a strong team is a big issue. If you have Banshee or Frost on the team, they kill everything before one has a chance to kill something to get some energy back. So either get rid of its range or enemies that are killed by friendlies should also return energy.

 

 

[Jimmeh420]

Thurible:

His 3 energy restore has to also occur when allies get the kills. If you badly want to keep the theme of Harrow getting kills to support his team then make it so he and his team get greater benefit if Harrow gets the kill while if allies get the kill then everyone gets a normal amount of energy. Harrow shouldn't be punished so much for allies bringing a DPS frame.

 

Penance:

Harrow is a support frame but he doesn't give the buffs to allies. Penance cap should be at least doubled and Harrow should give all buffs(except life steal) to allies but at a reduced number because I think those high numbers would be too much for such a long duration ability. On top of that the energy cost should be removed from Penance. Emptying your entire shield bar is sacrifice enough for this ability. The ability to increase the buff duration with no shields should be removed as well to prevent people from being able to repeatedly charge up Penance free of charge.

 

One final thing to note about all his abilities is that the animations should be sped up a bit and Harrow should be able to move while casting his abilities. Games are for fun but it's not fun to be stuck in long casting animations with no way of moving. 

 

[EinheriarJudith]

10 hours ago, Bobtm said:

~snip~

hit the nail on the head. Harrow is a frontline support anyone trying to play him from behind allies have no idea what they are doing. covenant can be used 2 different kinds of ways. one emergency revive, two throw yourself into the middle of a large crowd and wrack up the numbers it absorbs damage like nyx's absorb. if the squad is making enemies dead fast they are doing what they are supposed to be doing.

Edited July 5, 2017 by EinheriarJudith

[SenorClipClop]

Harrow is a wonderful mixture of careful setup, sustain and adaptation. Playing as Harrow you are required to plan out what you're going to do, fairly strict but with some options to help you adapt to situations and decent room to get creative. Sometimes when you don't follow that plan you end up with one too many resources depleted and might end up going down. TO be successful, one thing is sure: Harrow must push himself. He has to be on the frontline, he has to be putting himself in danger, and he has to be chasing those kills.

I really like Harrow as rounding out the family of more dedicated supports:

• Trinity, Restorative Support: I'm gonna watch out for you and give you energy, health and quick defenses when you need it! (Huh, weird, we seem to always need it. Good thing I can do that!)
• Oberon, Defensive Support: Hey, is that Tech dealing too much damage to my DPS? Lemme just knock it down, Puncture proc it and Rad proc it all at once. Let's also make sure he can't proc you as long as you're standing in this space. You also get a flat Armor buff in case you don't have much natural Armor yourself. Also here's some constant health regen. Oh no, he somehow managed to kill you? Nah, you've been instantly revived. What, he got you again? You'll bleed out in 18 seconds, ahhh! like 2 minutes, no worries, I'll get you back on your feet ....
• Harrow, Offensive Support: I stand in prayer and prepare the air for the killing, may it restore and invigorate us. By binding the demons I bolster my resolve, then harken back to the edge of damnation while I dive into the fray, our sect kept whole by the ringing of my bloody tools. My work will build our energies to a rising summit, then turn the viciousness of our foes upon themselves in wrathful vengeance. Also, my gun-holding idles are pretty sweet.
• Vauban, CC Support: I'm not gonna do much damage, but I have like 15 different ways I can make you all do the best damage possible. We'll have the enemy right where we want them.
• And others....

 

Minor point about Penance in an overpowered-for-the-mission squad: if I am Harrow and my allies are killing everything, I still have up Thurible (if I feel like it) and am granting Energy, but at a slow rate. Allies receive less Energy, they can't nuke the map as often, enemies are killed more slowly. If they're any kind of mildly intelligent, my squad will realize that giving me kills will give them more options for more kills, so they leave my Condemned enemies alone (and if they want energy, they turn off their toggles). Either way, there are now more enemies for me and I am getting more kills, granting more Energy. If the squad is nuking everything and being pretty efficient about it (ie. not running out of energy), I ignore Thurible entirely for the time being and combo Codemn's Overshields with keeping Penance always on, getting some really strong buffs and working pretty darn well as a high-accuracy damage frame. I'm also giving a passive 50m Health regen as long as there enemies to be damaging the team. And of course Covenant, which is always awesome unless the whole room is hard-CCed.

[kapn655321]

Dear DE,
I absolutely love Harrow.

Thematically, abilities, looks, all completely my jam.

Thanks guys. You're alright. =)

[Kurambik]

Let me lay a few starting points first, I love Harrow in terms of design and concept but there's no denying that (according to a statistical majority) he tends to under-perform in a squad set up. Given that his abilities work off of him being able to kill, makes him an inconsistent and, by definition, an unreliable support due to the fact that in a squad composition it is not the support's job to go for the kills but only to aid those who do. However saying this, the "don't criticise unless you can provide an alternative" proverb (loose translation) means that I'm obligated to give some suggestions. Do note that the values I mention here are intended as example and to allow for easy comparison and should be taken with a pinch of salt. Also I know not everyone may agree so let us try and keep this discussion civilised like adults.

• Firstly, I think that the bonuses from the kills (here I am including the health restore on Penance and the energy restore on Thurible) should not only come from Harrow's kills. I have formulated this change as follows:
  • For Harrow's kill bonuses on himself and allies: The lifesteal should be raised to let's say 10% (since he pretty much just stripped himself naked of his defenses) and granted equally to all of his allies. The idea is that since he's not going to get the majority of the kills, his bonuses should be buffed. The energy from Thurible depends on the charging but the same idea holds as it being 100% effective when harrow gets the kill.
  • For Allies' kill bonuses' effects on them selves: When an ally gets a kill, they restore their own health and energy at 75% efficiency when compared to Harrow's. By this I mean that for example if Harrow has 10% lifesteal on his kills, allies will have 7.5% life steal on theirs for themselves. Likewise for Thurible.
  • For Allies' kill bonuses' effects on other allies: When an ally gets a kill, they restore their other allies' health and energy at 50% efficiency when compared to Harrow's. By this I mean that for example if Harrow has 10% lifesteal on his kills, allies will have 5% life steal for others. Likewise for Thurible.
  • Example: Suppose there's a squad with players A, B, and H (Harrow). While H's kill bonuses are in no need of an explanation since it's how they already work in game, let us look at what happens between A and B. Suppose A gets kills at a rate slightly faster than B while H is at the bottom of the kill tree as expected. For each kill, A gives himself 75 health let's say, and gives both B and H 50 health each. Likewise happens for B with regards to A and H and works in a similar fashion with Thurible.
  • Aim: This way, one eliminates one of the major weaknesses of Harrow by simply having the whole squad as part of a weighted contribution to the cause while also relieving some pressure off Harrow making him less stressful to play.
     
• Next let us tackle Condemn. While I would have preferred the ability to be a cone (similar to Desiccation especially since it already has travel time) rather than a line, that is not the reason I am writing about it. My main goal here is to maybe recommend a simple, yet incredibly useful quality of life change. I am certain that it would help a great deal of players if this ability were to highlight or indicate what is considered a "head" on a particular enemy, maybe by having brighter energy effect on it and/or giving it a "prisma-like" ripple animation. The reason I am suggesting this, is because up till a few days ago, I thought that on Moas, their head was the gun rather than the torso area. Drakk Masters are also an issue occasionally. This may also help when enemies get the corruption buff since with that visual effect it gets kinda hard to see if they are facing you or not in the heat of battle (especially on low graphics settings). This change, however simple, will also drastically help improve player skill; for example let's look at Banshee's Sonar for a second, whenever I play with a Banshee that has a fairly visible energy colour, my brain almost automatically wants to point at the spots and barely miss any shots even with a fully zoomed sniper, a bow or my trusty Harpak. While yes it is not a statistical buff and hence does not effect the balance of the game, it immediately improves Harrow as an offensive support by helping his allies be better at playing the game by showing better skill. Before anyone brings it up, I know that this may raise the "training-wheel" argument but to be honest there is really no argument there. No matter how good one's skill is it never hurts to have some assurance.
   
• Another quick quality of life note that I would like to add is that casting Penance locking you in place without weapons feels clunky. Let's look at it from a realistic perspective for a moment, I would not really require two hands to flagellate myself with a thurible, and I could certainly keep running while doing so. So I would also like to propose that it would be made one-handed or at least not lock movement the way it does.

That's basically all I have to say and if anyone has any further ideas feel free to discuss them (in a civil manner please).

[Quanlain]

i understand your idea and concerns, And i like the ways you've listed to improve Harry, but what i think is that this will make Harrow pretty much unnoticed.
By this moment, Harrow requires a little bit of attention from team, just to give him space for his casts and headshots. (Actually, i didn't found myself in a spot where i can not kill an enemy.) After all, support needs not only to persist in a squad, but to actually do something besides pressing one button and letting team do the work for you. Not in Harrow's gameplay at least.

Harrow is designed to be very offencive, and he can pretty much go in to the fire first: He's durable, he can stunlock enemies, he can get a buttload of health/shields/energy from a single headshot (!), and i think that letting Harrow's team do the work for him is literally killing his potential. 

Second two changes you've listed are nice, i would like to see the highlights on enemy's weakspots, especially for other players.

 

Edited July 5, 2017 by Quanlain

[Kurambik]

20 minutes ago, Quanlain said:

i understand your idea and concerns, And i like the ways you've listed to improve Harry, but what i think is that this will make Harrow pretty much unnoticed.
By this moment, Harrow requires a little bit of attention from team, just to give him space for his casts and headshots. (Actually, i didn't found myself in a spot where i can not kill an enemy.) After all, support needs not only to persist in a squad, but to actually do something besides pressing one button and letting team do the work for you. Not in Harrow's gameplay at least.

I understand your concern with my proposal but the main reason I suggested the changes was not to make him unnoticed in the team but to make him more efficient (end less frustrating when being denied the opportunity to pull off a combo). With that change his kills would still be the most beneficial. Obviously the numbers I used were "place holders" just to give an idea, so to speak, but they could easily be tweaked in order to ensure that he is the main one providing the squad with energy and health as it is now. The change was mainly there to not make him feel useless when he's not the one getting most of the kills. For example in a survival mission, it is highly essential for the whole squad to keep their kill-rates as high as possible to maintain life-support and it would not be wise for the rest of the squad to sit and wait for Harrow to get the headshots. The goal was to make him synergise more in uncoordinated matches (like most public matches are).

[Quanlain]

2 minutes ago, Kurambik said:

The goal was to make him synergise more in uncoordinated matches (like most public matches are).

Yeah, the coordination is a thing. 
Overall your ideas are nice, i love them. But the numbers scare me a little bit

[Kurambik]

18 minutes ago, Quanlain said:

numbers scare me a little bit

I don't blame you they scare me too :P . I used them to bring my point across. I cannot really perform balance tests to optimise them. Personally I would have preferred to use x, ax and bx where 0<b<a<1 or something like that to keep it general but I know from experience that most people are repulsed when they see anything that remotely resembles algebra.

Edited July 5, 2017 by Kurambik

[Xekrin]

1 hour ago, Quanlain said:

i understand your idea and concerns

36 minutes ago, Kurambik said:

I understand your concern

I too am concerned with ideas and understanding

 

[Kurambik]

2 minutes ago, Xekrin said:

I too am concerned with ideas and understanding

Lol welcome to the club my friend :P