Quickthining staggers are way more punishing than they should be. Better off not using it in some cases.

[Kezriak]

19 minutes ago, Bobtm said:

So you think it's fair to just be able to avoid all death forever, on a 10 second cooldown?

That is the effective definition of brokenly over-powered.

Comparatively speaking look at the other modding options that exist in this specific realm;  Phoenix Renewal & Savior Decoy

Oberon's Phoenix Renewal works squad-wide, and has a 90 second cooldown on its effect, while also requiring the Oberon in question to maintian their Renewal cast in order to ensure their allies' immunity from death.  Loki's Savior Decoy only works for him, however it still has a 60 second cooldown, and has the limit in that your Decoy must be alive for it to work.  In addition, since the Decoy draws enemy agro, it's not a guaranteed save.

Since Quick Thinking works across every single frame, it would invariably need to have a longer cooldown than these two augments do, in order to be appropriately balanced if it has no other limitation.  So rather than the outlandish 10 seconds, try maybe in the realm of 120 seconds or longer.

The current functionality on Quick Thinking goes in-line with the mod name.  If you're not caught unaware you can avoid the circumstance that should by all rights have killed you, in almost every circumstance.  If you're not keeping up with potential threats and get caught when not paying attention, the mod alone doesn't automatically save you every time.  It's called Quick Thinking, not Cheat Death.

Okay so put a long cooldown timer on it, big deal.

I find it funny you meticulously go through ALL of the warframes+augments who can cheat death and neglect to mention nidus who has it innate to him, mind you it has its own set of limitations (consumes 15stacks per use) but also has a immunity to damage phase.

You wanna disagree, disagree, but dont sit there and nitpick every damn suggestion while wholeheartedly failing to acknowledge the fact that there is something wrong it or how it could be improved., and I hate to break it you you bud, balance isn't really that common in a game where, with limbo, you can avoid all damage and lasers in spy vaults while getting a boost to energy regen among other things.

[Wevi]

4 hours ago, Manyc said:

Don't twist things into your advantage

advantage of what?

 

4 hours ago, Manyc said:

Chopping things in half, which you weren't doing,

i ran to the injector thinking it wasn't filled. I try to be careful around them because sometimes they will take the injector and not actually fill up, (i rely on sound cues over visual cues). just before the first stagger the mission objective is to leave jordas during the purge sequence. enemies and injector drops normally despawn once the countdown starts so there is no need to kill stuff.

[ichiofmany]

>.> I may be wrong but Quick Thinking does not save you from a shot that would kill you in one hit. I always thought it was a training wheel so ppl could get used to content in the higher lvls. Damage that can kill you in one hit will still kill you with or without this mod. While something drastic may have happened to the mod with a recent update(which should be addressed if that is the case) there is no reason to buff a training wheel beyond what its meant to be.

The goal is to eventually take the training wheels off and ride the bike and its wicked fun . Please continue getting more acquainted with the abilities and their nuances as the Devs have put a lot of work into them allowing us to tackle(XD sometimes cheese) content that makes this mod obsolete. Good luck out there Tenno!!!

Edited July 6, 2017 by ichiofmany

[Mudfam]

31 minutes ago, ichiofmany said:

>.> I may be wrong but Quick Thinking does not save you from a shot that would kill you in one hit. I always thought it was a training wheel so ppl could get used to content in the higher lvls. Damage that can kill you in one hit will still kill you with or without this mod. While something drastic may have happened to the mod with a recent update(which should be addressed if that is the case) there is no reason to buff a training wheel beyond what its meant to be.

The goal is to eventually take the training wheels off and ride the bike and its wicked fun . Please continue getting more acquainted with the abilities and their nuances as the Devs have put a lot of work into them allowing us to tackle(XD sometimes cheese) content that makes this mod obsolete. Good luck out there Tenno!!!

Not ever getting hit in a regular missions where you have to move from room to room with aimbot enemies already trying to shoot you through the wall, or even spawn behind you already firing with AoE punchthrough weapons (kuva floods) is simply not a thing.

This is a fast paced chaotic horde game, it's not a tactical shooter. Taking damage happens, and it happens frequently. Some frames just can't take the punishment and absolutely need that 2nd chance that Quick Thinking can give them.

Some people are calling whatever it is that's just changed a stealth nerf, some are calling it a bug. I'm inclined to think it's a bug because it feels weird and inconsistent and frankly just absolutely freaking horrible.

I don't need any more time to become acquainted with the frames I've played for hundreds of hours each, or the game in general. Quick thinking was punishing enough, and already insufficient to make up for frames that are just paper while others are virtually unkillable.

[Chipputer]

5 hours ago, Wevi said:

enemies and injector drops normally despawn once the countdown starts so there is no need to kill stuff.

The lack of a need doesn't suddenly mean that it wasn't the most pertinent survival choice in that situation. You ran into a group of enemies, got yourself surrounded within melee range, and got smacked around because you decided to run at the last second instead of whipping out your melee and slicing through some enemies (or CCing them, depending).

Redirection has the caveat that status effects can go through shields and shields don't have any armor.
Vitality has the caveat that you need a way to restore health or else it remains lowered until you scrounge up health orbs.
Quick Thinking has the caveat of staggering you when you reach 2 health.

All of these benefit from the damage reduction properties of bullet jumping and a dodge roll. It's a give and take. If I only had a stagger the first time I hit 2hp and didn't have one after that, I'd just run QT on my Loki Prime forever. I'd never worry about healing because I'd never get truly punished for taking any amount of hits, particularly when running Zenurik. You might think it's over the top, and I might agree with you in some cases, but any alternatives would make QT so much the best option that there'd be almost no point in pushing for any frame with a decent energy pool to use anything else.

[ChillyWilly]

@Wevi I agree with you about the QT being not usefull, as the stagger will actually kill you more than it help you. For all of you that said "Ooh just bullet jump" or "Roll and take cover" . Look at yourself again, I'm pretty sure NONE of you are playing tactical shooter, Most of you go with meta weapons, ember etc and just kill everything on your path, then you blame on everything when you died on high level sorties.

Why I never use QT? Cause 2 reason. 1. It drain alot of your energy for HP. and EHP gained from QT is not worth it IMO. as for example, Nyx Chaos only cost 75 energy at base. and makes you ran away from damage quite fast. 2. Stagger, the stagger gained from the QT makes it the WORSE from all the defensive mod. It doesnt take energy for a shot that would 1 hit kill you. Sustaining dps from Heavy gunner will stun lock you. as you get melee'd everytime (try to melee fight tyl regor with normal warframe and no abilities) thats what you going to feel when you using QT.

 

Stagger from QT NEEDS to be removed. as it said it uses Energy Pool for Health, Stagger needs to be removed. You don't need immunity from all damage, just staggers from the mod itself.

QT is only good for the 99% Trinity before the nerf. Which is already gone. So this mod is just a waste.

[ChillyWilly]

On 7/6/2017 at 2:40 AM, Manyc said:

Quick Thinking is to save you from being sniped, not from hails of bullets. For that there's cover and physical evasion.

Its another way around, getting sniped that would otherwise one shot you won't trigger QT. Hails of bullets is more likeable to make QT usefull, but still, staggers

On 7/6/2017 at 2:38 AM, Xiusa said:

Bullet Jumping to avoid damage > Quick Thinking

You can't bullet jump forever in mission, you need to shoot aswell

 

This is one of prove that people don't use quick thinking, as it not good uses on any warframe.

They WON'T  fix this mod (I might be too harsh, but this mod is out for ages). As they never look back to old feedbacks, I mean. Go to your warframe mod station, Search for this mod. Parry and Reflex Guard, Thank to me that you never max this mod, as no one ever use it. This is why I said that DE never look back on problem that isn't popular. I've seen some visual bugs and some missing animations on some abilities.

 

 

Also, what "bug" are you guys talking about on update 21? as I never see a bug on stealth mission..

[Bobtm]

6 hours ago, Kezriak said:

Okay so put a long cooldown timer on it, big deal.

I find it funny you meticulously go through ALL of the warframes+augments who can cheat death and neglect to mention nidus who has it innate to him, mind you it has its own set of limitations (consumes 15stacks per use) but also has a immunity to damage phase.

You wanna disagree, disagree, but dont sit there and nitpick every damn suggestion while wholeheartedly failing to acknowledge the fact that there is something wrong it or how it could be improved., and I hate to break it you you bud, balance isn't really that common in a game where, with limbo, you can avoid all damage and lasers in spy vaults while getting a boost to energy regen among other things.

I was attempting to be succinct in regards to the situation.  Believe me I know well how big of a mess some of the other situations are, Limbo needs a full-rework to undo the mess his new kit is (he's both incredibly OP and a massive troll frame).  Nidus' passive makes him full on unstoppable forever as well, which is very problematic.  As a test-run I took an unranked Nidus into a Kuva flood and he got through the entire mission unscathed, never even coming close to entering bleedout.  His passive is a definite problem, but that's not really a topic for this precise thread.

One could write a literal essay about the overpowered nonsense that doesn't have appropriate drawbacks in this game.  I limited the comparison to the most appropriate which are 2 death cheating mods that have a proper drawback to them to counteract the fact that they make you not die when by all rights you should have died.

I'm not opposed to changing how Quick Thinking works.  I am however opposed to buffing it through the moon and back to where it grants all frames permanent invincibility.  In addition, Quick Thinking does not "have" to be improved, it's already an immensely powerful mod.  Reworking it so it is no more effective than now, but uses entirely different mechanics is something I'd be open to discussing quite well.  But so far everyone who wants it change has only suggested massively buffing the mod.

QT is the staple that backs up my 200% Strength Sonar/Sonic Boom Banshee build and allows me to play her with a very aggressive glass-cannon style and not get killed during hectic situations.  To provide an example of this;

The mod does not make me full-stop invincible.  When playing this Banshee spec I know this, and play with an attentive and highly mobile playstyle.  If I fail to zone enemies properly with back/forth motions at Silence's end-range, fail to use Sonic Boom to remove close-range threats who are inside of Silence's range, or fail to kill those targets I'm in a huge risk scenario.  Even with QT there's a solid chance that I'll get blown away if I'm playing carelessly, which is very fair.  However, if I'm playing smart I can always get through even +100 level Sortie survivals where the enemy faction is Grineer, and when they have elemental boosted damage (which is +300% to their output).

I'm very fond of running those high level missions with glassy caster frames, and Banshee happens to be one of my favorites to do that with.  It's very, very rare that I die during those scenarios because I know how to avoid the stagger by using proper awareness and timing, and by thinking quickly during hectic situations.  Like purposefully dodge rolling into a Bombard rocket or Napalm shot so that my HP hits 2 under my own circumstances that I know I'll be able to survive and counter.

If a player knows how to maximize Quick Thinking, it makes them incredibly powerful in terms of general survival.  However, it's not something automatic nor something you can take for granted.  Completely changing the mod's fucntionality could be interesting.  Buffing it is completely out of the question.

[Praxxor]

On 7/5/2017 at 11:55 PM, redeyedtreefrog said:

Honestly, The fact that quick thinking even staggers you at all is pretty bad. First, it doesn't tell you about it in the mod description, second, the point at which quick thinking triggers is probably the point at which you need to move more than ever. Not to mention the part where quick thinking doesn't even work right half the time; I've gone down on frames that have quick thinking with 2-300 energy left at times. It's such a terrible mod that I don't even bother using it on any frame except ivara.

If the incoming damage is more than what your energy can mitigate then it won't drain the energy and you'll just die. I HAVE died against level 10 with 850 energy when testing though, so there can be a bug somewhere.

[6KIRA9]

Hey guys, please do me a favour, before commenting about this topic, go ahead and use that mod in a build, play with it a whole day, and then feel free to post your opinion

i'm a Loki player, if you check my profile i have loki and loki p. with 13% use each, and as obvious loki have the lowest durability of all warframes, so QT is a must if you don't want to get oneshotted, but with loki you'll get the staggers pretty frequently because of the low health, even if you escape after the first one you'll get a second stagger soon enough, and that eats up your energy and at a point i even find myself unable to use disarm or invisibility (don't you scream pera invisibility now)

in many occasions i got staggered to death, with not even a window to move !! i know that now there is a stagger recovery mod, but will it really help ? or just make me move to the second stagger faster ? and what mod should i remove to put this one in it's place ? duration or range mod ?

getting surrounded and staggered to death isn't a nice way to die, now i'm forced to add enemy radar mods (i mostly use companion one to keep all my mods on Loki) to see if there are enemies around and disarm them before they stun me to death. but that solution is only for loki, what about other warframes ? what about when you can't use abilities ?

this mod definitly needs a little change so it becomes actually effective, and not only delay your death and consuming all your enegy at same time!!

[Bobtm]

14 minutes ago, 6KIRA9 said:

Hey guys, please do me a favour, before commenting about this topic, go ahead and use that mod in a build, play with it a whole day, and then feel free to post your opinion

I've been using the mod Quick Thinking on squishy/caster frames for years, and there's nothing wrong with the stagger.  And I'm talking literal years, I began using this mod back before it was changed to its current function, when the old QT/Rage loop gave you almost literal invincibility.  There's a reason that this mod is in its current state and has remained mostly there aside bug fixes, for so long without being changed.  In terms of mechanics, Quick Thinking is in a really good spot right now.  It's very powerful, but sports and appropriate and fair drawback.  Bolstering survivability on squishy frames without actually giving them the ability to tank damage in any realistic way.

Now mind you, Quick Thinking may be a big bugged currently with regards to its mechanics, U21 broke a lot of things.  But what advice I'm going to offer here is based on the mod functioning properly.  Been using Harrow almost exclusively since acquiring him and he doesn't warrant the use of QT at all.  The few times I've broke out Ivara/Loki after U21, well I never even took enough damage for the mod to activate in the first place.

I don't say this from a place of rudeness;  But if you're dying as Loki that often, you are doing something incredibly wrong.  As Loki you have borderline full control over battlefield situations (assuming a proper build) so almost nothing should ever hit you under nearly any circumstance.  You note enemy radar, but there's no need for such a thing.  Use very high range paired with his Radial disarm, then just be aware of enemies while moving.  Even if you're not invisible (which you can be, pretty much all the time) the enemies can't even try to touch you if you're moving.  There's a key reason why Loki has the highest base sprint speed in the game still, even after all these years.

Even with or without Radial Disarm, you've also got Loki's Decoy up your sleeve at any given moment.  That thing grabs enemy attention quite strongly over a modest area.  See a Bombard/Napalm up ahead but outside of Disarm range?  Bullet jump up high, throw a Decoy out behind them, then drop down and take them out with a melee slam, or just aim glide + slide to just glide past with complete saftety.  Tired of constantly running around?  Loki's got absurdly long wall cling duration as well, Disarm enemies then bullet jump up to any high wall and just put it in park.  Then have yourself a plain ol' shooting gallery.

If you are fighting right in the thick of things, keep aware of enemy locations just naturally, don't try relying on a Radar mod since such a thing will not inform you of which enemy units precisely are there.  Memorize enemy gunfire noises and patterns, if you hear enemy gunfire, hit 4.  You don't need active line of sight for Radial Disarm to do its job.  You can also cast Disarm while wall latching and while invisible for added safety.

To loop this back to Quick Thinking, the mod will not save you if you eat a hail of high powered gunfire, nor should it.  When using many caster frames (including Loki) you're sacrificing survival prowess for raw utility or offensive casting, depending on the frame.  If Quick Thinking were unnecessarily buffed, then Loki and many other squishy frames (that are squishy by nature for a reason) would become outright unstoppable even more than they almost already are.

[Sloan441]

On ‎7‎/‎5‎/‎2017 at 3:38 PM, Xiusa said:

Bullet Jumping to avoid damage > Quick Thinking

Best to utilize both.

Relying on QT to get you out of very deep wells of trouble is unwise. Your best defense is not being there to begin with. QT is an extra layer of insurance when it comes to survivability. It's not a substitute for other mods or situational awareness.

I use it in several builds where extreme survivability is important. It can save you in a bad situation; I wouldn't count on it saving you in every bad situation or when you habitually place yourself in very bad situations. It's not a panacea.

[Kasarian]

I'll just remind that QT was nerfed with stagger since there was a bug with Rage mod (aka you could not die since you got energy from being hit which was consumed by QT which was fueled by Rage - you get the idea) which was subsequently fixed but stagger was left because... we had Trinity with 99% bless (or vampire shich sustained energy pool indefinitely) for any "high level" content?

I feel that the only thing that should happen is for QT to loose the stagger. That's it. Often at some high level mission when I'm in squishy frame even QT doesn't save me from being one shot downed and staggers from small fry just opens me up for more potshots...

Though to sum up my feelings on survival:

1. Shield gating needs to be a thing AND be close to how armor is effective (not the same, after all, that's for squishy frames AND frames with high armor will also benefit from shieldgates)

2. QT needs it's stagger simply removed and if DE really wants us to use Pain Threshold then make it f#$%$@ work for QT stagger -_-

3. Enemy infinite scaling has to be addressed. Both damage and EHP...

[Fullmetal_Underpants]

stagger itself whether as a part of quick thinking or otherwise is the problem as it's too easy to get chain-staggered into oblivion. if it were a little shorter or there was a cooldown from the time the animation ended to the time it could happen again it would be more manageable, but as it stands, stagger in general is too punishing period. between stagger, knockdown, enemies that trip and drag, knock-backs and even the ridiculous animation that occurs when you have an ability that "resists" knockdown, but for some godforsaken reason still locks you into some sort of parrying animation and doesn't actually stop you from being affected by the force of the knockdown (it still launches you back, you just don't fall on your &#!) there is simply too much loss of control for your characters in many situations, especially in infested heavy missions where i have literally been knocked down by a moa as i walked around a corner, hooked by an ancient the second i got up, hit by an eximus fire nova, hooked again, moa stomped again, and had this process repeat for about 20 seconds before a pre-nerf tonkor saved me and now i've gotta deal with 3-4 of the fat guys on kuva missions chain-stunning me because they all take turns dashing at me... seriously what the hell, how is that even difficulty? that's just complete loss with no chance of even using skill to recover.

Edited July 7, 2017 by Fullmetal_Underpants
forgot something.

[flameblastguardian]

Getting staggered is definitely better than being dead. Any small buff to this mod would make it very broken. 

[-NTB-Cris0407]

More like...?

Eating X% of total energy+Immortality for 5s ?

[Skaleek]

Its all been said before!!

 

 

[Nova]

11 minutes ago, flameblastguardian said:

Getting staggered is definitely better than being dead. Any small buff to this mod would make it very broken. 

That would be fine if you couldn't be stunlocked with literally less than 1 frame to escape an attack, while rolling provides even less frames than it used to to avoid stagger, and while you can literally lose up to 700 energy on some frames because a shield lancer's gun isn't "enough" to just insta-down you and instead chips and stunlocks you to death.

This mod is a bandaid for a bandaid that's been bandaided by a bandaid that does not work and is being picked off by several other bandaid mechanics that do not function properly either. It needs to be addressed and fixed.

[Isycius_Ievel]

It seems that stagger from Quick Thinking takes priority over every other animation and it seems to occur even with less damage taken before, which kills any attempt to do anything.

You die exactly same way unless you stagger toward the wall, you will have no energy to use wake up ult after being revived, and taking more time to die will just make enemies more concentrated around you. As such, it is now can be considered actively worse than just dying immediately.

Also, I'm not sure adding around 1800 EHP (As most of the frames that uses them have little armor) can break the frame that badly. But more importantly, I don't really see any need for DE to stealth nerf this mod at the moment. It isn't financially useful, and I don't think it will particularly help with balancing in any meaningful way. So I will just assume that it is unintended.

[Vulpei]

I think the real solution to this is to just rename the mod "Prolonged Suffering".

 

On topic though, an add-on I would like to see would maybe be once you do hit that threshold and stagger, it uses your energy to send out a shockwave that staggers nearby enemies.  Maybe 10m?  Possibly add a 30 second cooldown on it too.

[centaurius]

On 06/07/2017 at 0:09 PM, Mudfam said:

Something's definitely changed with update 21, Quick Thinking is now truly useless. I play a lot of squishy frames in higher level content and have always relied on quick thinking to not drop dead from every angry glance. Since U21 it has become near impossible to survive with quick thinking.

I agree. I've noticed differences since I now go down and don't even realize what happened sometimes, it's not "kicking in" properly.

[Cytobel]

Quick Thinking + Rage used to be the thing, and somehow DE still fears it will break things (nevermind Naramon) if it were usable at all.  Hell, Rage isn't a decent mod anymore just because of how little return you get for the damage you're taking, not in the age of Arcane Energize.  Also consider that there are builds which can outright GUARANTEE immortality with thier skills (so long as the energy holds).  The only 'Frames where I really want QT are ones that have no armor to tank, no abilities to prevent damage, and little CC to hold off the wave of hate.

I'm thinking of those times a cloud of Napalm projectiles suddenly starts exploding nearby, or a teleporting Grineer Commander dumps you in a death pack (2 Napalms, a Scorch, and some Sawblades can RUIN dat butt), or you walk around a corner to discover a Juggernaught was throwing spines at something and you're in the way.  Heck, simple whipcord into 4 Mutalyst Osprey fart clouds can be bad enough.  Those are the times when I really would love to see QT do something that isn't going to outright kill me while simultaneously draining my energy pool.

No matter how I look at it, there are enough energy-disrupting effects in game to more than devalue QT on their own.  There are more than enough other choices for the tough 'Frames.  The only 'Frames I can think of which would benefit are ones that cannot survive the stagger, leaving Quick Thinking a mod with no purpose.

I argue there are better methods for controling this mod than the death stagger.  Cooldowns, minimum energy caps, or lower conversion efficiency come to mind.  I get that it was destroyed to prevent a R+QT immortality problem that existed BACK IN DAMAGE 1.0 and came before all the DoTs we routinely see on our 'Frames, and the logic then was good.  Now this mod is straight up BAD, without real redeeming qualities outside of the "stray shot doesn't drop you" arguement, however I argue that adding an energy leech to my 'Frame should at least do something of equivalent value to the energy it eats.

[K4r4k4s4]

Staggering with QT was for ages and I don't think it is need to change. Otherwise it will be OP. This mod is very situational and bad in most cases. I didn't notice if something was changed in recent update or not... However that is needed to be changed is HP and armor scaling from base values. Something more like Inaros-way but for all frames. Though doubt that devs will do it.

Edited July 8, 2017 by K4r4k4s4

[Wyrmius_Prime]

Don't use it. It's not supposed to be a best-in-slot immortality mod for every situation possible. If you didn't use QT at the GIF you provided earlier, you would have taken absolutely no damage.

Edited July 8, 2017 by Wyrmius_Prime

[BrazilianJoe]

I think the stagger is too punishing, as it leaves the player hapless to be mowed down. 

IMO it would be better if it worked similarly to the sentinel's shield replenishment mod, which instantly recharges you shield, but it could work as a health regen instead.

Or a short-lived invulnerability for a few seconds. 

Of course, this kind of effect demands having a long cooldown, otherwise the mod becomes mandatory.