[Update 21.4.0] Hydroid Revisited Feedback

[Nazrethim]

2 hours ago, (PS4)theelix said:

I can't help but disagree with most of your points, but I'm not going to type them all out. 

I believe DE truly missed the mark. Hydroid, regardless of all of their changes, still feels boring because the most effective way to play is to sit in a puddle on Interception type missions. In Defense he's beat by... basically anyone since he doesn't actually defend the target. A long range enemy kills it and Hydroid just sits in a puddle. Barely able to CC since his 4 can't be cast outside puddle's range, and Tempest Barrage isn't guaranteed to hit a spot you marked. To be honest, I wish they'd avoid any rework close to this in the future. 

Would you like more "ash revisited" style of reworks?

Honestly Hydroid is a blessed frame, all of his abilities received upgrades with his revist and they objectively work better now. And the OP has a good point:

2 hours ago, (PS4)WINDMILEYNO said:

Basically, hydroid is an interactive caster frame with awesome animation art (or whatever you would call it, blanking) and pretty much zero limitations beyond slow casting speed and meh energy pool which are solved (for me) with natural talent and streamline, because since his abilities perform so well, im not modding to change them, and have room for these (volt gripe). And while there is almost no reason not to constantly cast tentacle swarm, every ability has its own use on its own and is effective, instead of simply being damage multipliers (abilities 1,2 and 3) to the bread and butter of the kit.

What this sentence implies is that, aside from energy pool, Hydroid's abilities are designed to work at default values, allowing players to truly choose what they want to mod for, rather than shoehorning them into stacking specific stats just make the abilties work in the first place. That is good design. Seems DE learned the lesson from previous reworks.

[Zanoza-chan]

On 10.08.2017 at 8:26 PM, [DE]Danielle said:

Sentinel abilities are now disabled while in Undertow. This fixes vacuumed items blocking your view and you from pulling in enemies.

For now looks like sentinel abilities does not switching back on after leaving the Undertow.

UPD: I wrote this while chilling on T1 fissure survival. Entered and left an Undertow multiple times, my Helios acted like he has no precepts at all. But at some moment his vacuum started to work again. Seems like that issue has less than 100% chance to happen.

Edited August 24, 2017 by Zanoza-chan

[Doforcash]

you lost me right at the "Pirate fix" >:(

 

[EmberStar]

So, you want to make a global nerf to the power that DE (for some strange reason) decided to base all his synergies around, so that you can cripple people who are using a single augment card?  Because you seem to be basing this entire scenario around having Corroding Barrage.  Quick hint:  Not everyone has that card.  Given that even with the rework Hydroid isn't super popular, I'd imagine a lot of people don't plan to get that card.

In any case, since DE specifically added the ability for other players to fire weapons into the puddle to do damage and apply status effects, and I believe they fixed the bug where Corroding Barrage *wasn't* affecting enemies in Undertow, I think you may be out of luck.

[King-Baconbeard]

He needs one small change DE!!

 

make puddle a water trap...

 

3 to cast and enter puddle, space bar jump out and leave the trap (would then start a countdown/duration timer) and allow hydroid freedom to actually play the game

undertow should not be affected by range only Efficiency (cost to cast and move) Duration(how long the trap stays) and Strength how many it can hold...

its like such a small change but so important to make PA sell

when near the puddle 3 should either pull enemies into it or allow hydroid to re-enter..

 

passsive puddle acts as a vaccumm haha or something to energy

 

Edited August 24, 2017 by Sheep-frame

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

Why would anyone just sit in the puddle anyways? Sounds like laziness.

Yeah, if it were up to me, tidal surge and undertow would be the same ability, as in moving with it would send you as a wave instead of a slow crawl. Sliding and casting undertow would be the wave as well. Casting tentacle swarm from undertow would allow you to control the tentacles, and the ultimate would be a rain peltering hurricane (kidding, but some ults are just bigger versions of the first ability).  But you know DE has to add limits to stuff like that. Does anyone want another riot sheild? Do you really?

[(PSN)DreThaBeast-]

As a player who uses Hydroid a lot... I can honestly say he's easily one of the worst frames in the game. I can also say his second and third ability is pointless.. especially Tidal Surge. Its way too clunky. The only real use of going into Undertow is defend yourself if your hp is low and its way too slow... and all its functions take up WAYY too much energy for such little results. But not only that, staying in one place as a puddle to wait for enemies to drown to death is boring especially moving as a puddle at 1 MPH. I do like pulling enemies in though (that's kinda fun) but overall I barely use it. Other than that, I spam Tempest Barrage and Tentacle Swarm all day. I hope to see Tidal Surge completely replaced with something better along with Undertow. I really like a water themed frame but many other Warframes feel much more of a superior choice at the moment. And with his prime around the corner I'm hoping he gets a true rework like Oberon and Limbo did. Because I really enjoyed their reworks a lot compared to how they were like before. #SaveHydroidPlease :/

[(PSN)DreThaBeast-]

On 8/23/2017 at 4:47 PM, (PS4)WINDMILEYNO said:

How do hydroid fans like the rework? I like it, and definitely am salty as a Volt fan with the charge mechanic he has....

I love Volt. Hes one of my favorite frames because hes fun with his speed and can stun everybody with his ultimate with decent damage especially with duration mods but most importantly, he's viable. But as a Hydroid Main i've been waiting for a great rework for him but after seeing this rework i've actually been maining Volt and his static charge passive is a little weird but it doesn't hinder his performance that much. I'd still prefer for him not to have that passive though to be honest. 

[(PSN)lhbuch]

Personally I dont like the update. 1 and 4 are still random. 4 makes killing enemies annoying, it is better but still bad.The wave is pointless unless you want to group them in the puddle. 

The hole thing is based om the puddle, which means a slow form that cant use weapons. To balance all that, it received a ridiculous dmg so at least you can kill the world while bored to death.

In my opinion the update is  a nice thing for Hydroid lovers and not a lot of people will start playing him because of the update.

 

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

1 hour ago, (PS4)DreThaBeast- said:

I love Volt. Hes one of my favorite frames because hes fun with his speed and can stun everybody with his ultimate with decent damage especially with duration mods but most importantly, he's viable. But as a Hydroid Main i've been waiting for a great rework for him but after seeing this rework i've actually been maining Volt and his static charge passive is a little weird but it doesn't hinder his performance that much. I'd still prefer for him not to have that passive though to be honest. 

So what DE could have done was combined the 2 and 3 and made room for a better ability. But when they do things like that, they add useless limitations. Like volts riot sheild or Excaliburs exalted blade. Volt is uselessly limited. His synergies dont do anything. Iv said this countless times, i know its silly to be upset about aircast restrictions and "ability in use" limitations, but hydroid has no such limits and thats why i like him. And his powers physically work together and look great. Also, crowd control, specifically discharge against grineer, is boring to me. When people say tidal surge is boring because you sit in the puddle, it may be wrong, but i reply with "but you dont have to sit in the puddle...". Yeah, as an ability its lacking, but how many people will turn around and say cloud walker is fine as is? And tidal surge is 50 times more useful than cloud walker. I like it because it allows quick cover to cover movement, but discharge is a ruined version of overload and always will be in my eyes. I guess its just perspective. Its cool that we are opposites.

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

35 minutes ago, (PS4)lhbuch said:

Personally I dont like the update. 1 and 4 are still random. 4 makes killing enemies annoying, it is better but still bad.The wave is pointless unless you want to group them in the puddle. 

The hole thing is based om the puddle, which means a slow form that cant use weapons. To balance all that, it received a ridiculous dmg so at least you can kill the world while bored to death.

In my opinion the update is  a nice thing for Hydroid lovers and not a lot of people will start playing him because of the update.

 

Tempest barrage is really powerful for a first ability. I dont think it can really be considered a first ability. There is something really satisfying about seeing the explosions of water crashing into an artic eximus snowglobe and knocking them down inside. What in the world is soul punch, or fire ball, or iron jab or mesas first ability? Nonsense, garbage, uselessness compared to hydroids. Its random? Its concentrated fire in aoe, im glad its random, but random here does not mean targeting issues. Some people have said they have issues with it going where they want it to go. Im left wondering why...

Tentacle swarm as an ult kills things. Tempest barraged kills things. Weapons kill things. Yeah, the playstyle is available to sit in the puddle and rack up damage, but the option to play interactively is also there. 

Edited August 25, 2017 by (PS4)WINDMILEYNO

[(PSN)M37h3w3]

DE,

I know that at this point Hydroid's abilities aren't going to get any major reworks despite my problem with all the focus being on his puddle which isn't very fun gameplay, but can you at least do a few small changes?

Changes such changing the melee slam spawning a tentacle to something other than a melee slam, swapping his shield boost for a health boost, dropping the energy cost of Tidal Surge, and upping (slightly) the damage on Tempest Barrage, Tidal Surge, and Tentacle Swarm?

[(XBOX)S9X]

Cost reduction of Tidal Surge while in Undertow.

Allowing enemies in Undertow to be carried whilst moving, so it's not a sit still to kill ability.

Speeding up base movement of Undertow. (Not necessarily needed, but would be nice. Adjusting the position of your puddle to grab an enemy behind cover can be annoyingly tedious at times.)

I think with these minor changes, Hydroid would be in a perfect spot  game flow wise.

 

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

I personally love every rework that's been done.

Saryn, mag, and hydroid are all now my bastard children because of the reworks.

I would maybe like to see them take a "round 2" at volt, ember, and ash at some point.  Not really to make big sweeping changes but just some slight improvements.

Oh that goes for limbo especially.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

11 hours ago, (PS4)DreThaBeast- said:

As a player who uses Hydroid a lot... I can honestly say he's easily one of the worst frames in the game. I can also say his second and third ability is pointless.. especially Tidal Surge. Its way too clunky. The only real use of going into Undertow is defend yourself if your hp is low and its way too slow... and all its functions take up WAYY too much energy for such little results. But not only that, staying in one place as a puddle to wait for enemies to drown to death is boring especially moving as a puddle at 1 MPH. I do like pulling enemies in though (that's kinda fun) but overall I barely use it. Other than that, I spam Tempest Barrage and Tentacle Swarm all day. I hope to see Tidal Surge completely replaced with something better along with Undertow. I really like a water themed frame but many other Warframes feel much more of a superior choice at the moment. And with his prime around the corner I'm hoping he gets a true rework like Oberon and Limbo did. Because I really enjoyed their reworks a lot compared to how they were like before. #SaveHydroidPlease :/

Worst doesn't really mean anything when these days you can take any frame into a sortie or raid and do well.

pointless is subjective.  His 2 is nice as heck.  I can use it to become temp invulnerable to escape damage due to bad positioning.  Or I can nab all the enemies around a downed ally and either kill them myself or go into puddle while my ally is picked up by someone else.  I hardly see how his puddle is awful when I can grab enemies that are troublesome for an objective or ally and hold onto them till my team is ready to deal with them.  Not only that but if I didn't want to wait I can do 2 things.  If I have corrosive barrage and they are armored enemies I can cast my 1 on the puddle and nuke them.  OR I could cast my tentacles on myself and leave my puddle.  the tentacles then cc the enemies for me and I can go else where.

I Don't run into energy problems at all and i'm pretty sure I don't even run max efficiency.  are you using zenurik with p flow?  If not there is your problem.  The only frame off the top of my head that I actually struggle with on energy cost is saryn. oberon technically does but rage works well for him.

I loved the rework.  He might be "boring" for some.  But that doesn't make him bad.  he's got good CC (especially since they made changes to tentacle swarm) good damage against armored enemies, and decent survivability.

IMO aside from fixing the problem where he doesn't take enemies in his puddle with him and giving him a better passive I don't think he needs any more changes.

 

EDIT: also arguing about frames being able to do better is never a solid argument.  Warframe is about personal taste and preference.  If you only ever cared for using what is objectively best your tools would be severely limited and you'd get bored fast.  I find enjoyment coming up with interesting frame/weapon combos or trying to take a weapon/frame to new heights with new mod setups.

Edited August 25, 2017 by (XB1)Knight Raime

[Nazrethim]

4 hours ago, (Xbox One)Knight Raime said:

I personally love every rework that's been done.

Saryn, mag, and hydroid are all now my bastard children because of the reworks.

I would maybe like to see them take a "round 2" at volt, ember, and ash at some point.  Not really to make big sweeping changes but just some slight improvements.

Oh that goes for limbo especially.

I'm with you, except for Ash. Since his ult is not working at a mechanical level, buffing it or tweaking it won't work (That's the whole reason the revisit was a failure). It needs to be given the Super Jump treatment: scrapped and made anew.

[FireSegment]

On 8/24/2017 at 3:03 PM, (PS4)WINDMILEYNO said:

None of hydroids abilities are limited by aircast restrictions. thats the winner right there. I dont see "ability in use" messages either. It might just be the silliest thing to you normal people to be salty about, it might just be, but i really hate Volt for this reason. As hydroid, I just recast any ability, even if its active and spend energy, simple as that, and in the air if i please. No one is restricting me to anything.

the same frustration i feel when using Chroma, his 2nd and 3rd make playing him is about ... waiting to recast them (same problem with early versions of Iron Skin imo).

[YagoXiten]

First off: Thank you DE, for all of your amazing work on Hydroid's revamp.

That said, there's just one major issue that still remains.

Tentacle Swarm has no significant tactical usage, as it is too functionally similar to Tempest Barrage. They are both somewhat unreliable powers that disable enemies and deal damage in a specific area. This would be fine if it weren't for the fact that both of these abilities are in on the same Warframe.

Here is a concise list of simple suggestions to improve Tentacle Swarm's usefulness provided in the order of my personal preference:
 

1. Enemies killed whilst affected by Tentacle Swarm have a chance to drop a Health Orb.
2. Tentacle Swarm's damage is reduced and changed to Impact, but now has a 15% Critical Chance, a 2.0 Critical Multiplier, a 25% Status Chance, and is affected by melee mods..
3. Tentacle Swarm's damage now adds to the melee combo counter.
4. Enemies killed whilst affected by Tentacle Swarm create an additional nearby Tentacle which lasts for the remaining duration or until the ability is recast.
5. When Tentacle Swarm is recast, the Kraken resurfaces and rapidly travels to the designated position, ensnaring and dragging enemies along its path.
6. Tentacle Swarm is now a toggled ability that follows Hydroid similar to World on Fire.

Edited August 25, 2017 by YagoXiten

[paul5473]

i want 6 so much for his swarm but needs to scale

[LSG501]

55 minutes ago, YagoXiten said:

6. Tentacle Swarm is now a toggled ability that follows Hydroid similar to World on Fire.

Do you not know how much some of us hate being in squads with an ember player that knows no other way of playing than pressing 4 as soon as they start the level.....

 

Honestly all tentacle swarm needs in my opinion is faster charging (or removing it completely so it's like the old version) and more damage

[YagoXiten]

53 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

Do you not know how much some of us hate being in squads with an ember player that knows no other way of playing than pressing 4 as soon as they start the level.....

 

Honestly all tentacle swarm needs in my opinion is faster charging (or removing it completely so it's like the old version) and more damage

Duh? That's why it is the last thing on the list.

The only reason I even suggested it is because, quite frankly, at least it would then be functionally different from Tempest Barrage. As it is now, they might as well be the same button. And in all honesty, Tempest Barrage usually does the job better.

Tentacle Swarm has the same issue that Well of Life has. Redundancy. 
That's the problem.

A lot of us are aware of that and want to feel like hitting the button does something that our other powers cannot.

[(PSN)lhbuch]

23 hours ago, (PS4)WINDMILEYNO said:

Tempest barrage is really powerful for a first ability. I dont think it can really be considered a first ability. There is something really satisfying about seeing the explosions of water crashing into an artic eximus snowglobe and knocking them down inside. What in the world is soul punch, or fire ball, or iron jab or mesas first ability? Nonsense, garbage, uselessness compared to hydroids. Its random? Its concentrated fire in aoe, im glad its random, but random here does not mean targeting issues. Some people have said they have issues with it going where they want it to go. Im left wondering why...

Tentacle swarm as an ult kills things. Tempest barraged kills things. Weapons kill things. Yeah, the playstyle is available to sit in the puddle and rack up damage, but the option to play interactively is also there. 

Yeah I know he can be powerful and even fun for some players. I dont like it and maybe it is a playstyle thing.

[PsiWarp]

I would've been satisfied if they had added scaling damage to Tentacle Swarm instead of Undertow, but as of right now it's just another glorified (yet often unreliable) CC with a longer duration and range (when charged) than Barrage.

IMO since the tentacles flail around endlessly I would love it if they did their damage in an AoE around them, and allow them to damage enemies inside Undertow. Tempest Barrage can, so why don't tentacles? Tentacle Swarm cast from Undertow deal double damage, but the tentacles can't take advantage of that against submerged enemies unless Hydroid moves his pool... not very synergetic.

[Buddhakingpen]

I'm a hardcore hydroid enthusiast, and while it does have very legitimate usage as a way to maintain stealth damage multipliers it certainly isnt as attractive a move as tempest barrage. But its still has its uses, depending on what kind of cc you prefer. . Think of it like vaubans bastille vs vortex

I dont feel hydroid needs any more large buffs than he has honesty, as he's a frame with 4 cc moves as it is, armor shredding, tons of melee damage potential, and a scaling damage invincibility move.

The only changes i can see being balanced here is 3, with 5 suffering from the same redundancy thats being complained about. The rest being either overpowered or useless. 

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

2 hours ago, (PS4)lhbuch said:

Yeah I know he can be powerful and even fun for some players. I dont like it and maybe it is a playstyle thing.

Imagine if it were single target likr most first abilities and shot one rain drop down on one enemy or in a small aoe. Likes frosts freeze, or Embers fireball. It would be very underwhelming. Even if the ability fired concentrated attacks in one small area, that would also reduce its usefulness. Tempest barrage seemed to be at its best when negative and positive ranges on hydroid could change its area of affect, so the obvious next step to make everyone happy would be to add a mechanic that allows hydroid to set the parameters of his abilities, either for every cast or once for a set amount of casts...something like inaros and his scarab armor ability.