[Update 21.4.0] Hydroid Revisited Feedback

[(PSN)TheHexahedron001]

Good revisit, but I have some feedback you may be interested in. 

Firstly, the introduction of the new mechanics with undertow we're much appreciated by myself and others. However, I have some ideas on how it could be improved further. When moving undertow via tidal surge, or slowly at the expense of energy, undertow should carry trapped enemies, as well as deal more damage the more enemies trapped. This is a brilliant idea I learned from another Warframe content creator that I think would work positively for Hydroid, as it would make you want to use undertow in conjunction with your other abilities, opening more powerful combo possibilities. 

Secondly, I noticed that if your power range on Hydroid is so long, he seems to drop enemies the further traveled when using tidal surge. 

Also, Tempest Barrage, good. Great. Can't say anything more about it. It fits as his 1. 

Lastly, his fourth ability works, but it does not deal too much damage. Wich is fine, as it works mainly as a CC ability. But the enemies being flailed around makes them hard to hit. BUT flailing the enemies wildly greatly well fits Hydroid. The idea of wild limbs flailing around wildly with enemies makes sense. It just does not work that well. I believe that you should incorperate the Kraken into this ability. Perhaps he pulls high profile targets (Heavy Gunners, Bombards, Techs, Aincents) under the ground and deals large damage, and or eats them. I love the idea of summoning the Kraken as part of this ability, but I would love for him to have a bigger part in how Hydroid works. 

I don't expect anybody to read this, but if you do, try to get DE to read it. That would really help out a lot. Thanks. 

 

[takeshiblue]

On 8/10/2017 at 11:45 AM, Ryme said:

What is the point of having both Tidal Surge and Undertow? It seems like Undertow is the same as Tidal Surge, now that you can move while in puddle form. The mobility bonus of Tidal Surge could easily just be rolled into Undertow, so that the Jump key would initiate a "surge" in a given direction, at a cost of energy.

I'd like for Tidal Surge to just be rolled into Undertow and replaced with a new skill. It would admittedly be more work with having to create a new skill and changing the existing Augment Mod, but I think it would be better for the frame overall.

was going to say something about that too, cause I suggested it too. 

On 8/10/2017 at 11:51 AM, RottedApples said:

 

Theres a lot and i mean a lot of, spend more energy to do more, in this kit and I feel like if you are going to do that you need some method of self energy regen/restore to help him out. Maybe internal testing found a higher efficiency build worked well and maybe I will find that out myself but just looking at it i'm a bit worried about his energy economy if he is solo or not with a harrow/trin.

 

Something like this would be good, but as stated before his 2 and three should be one in the same

 

Tactical said a lot of stuff I agreed with. This reworks feels more like a tweak. He was one of my first frames (1st non including the starter) and I was like a pirate water based frame cool, sadly he just sucked. The armor bonus and shield bonus was cool for making him less squishy. This doesn't feel like a full rework like how Excal and Mag got. Feels like a slight tweak like how Frost got. I feel like they need to take in considering the many feedback that people are giving and make him a lot better. I feel personally that his one shouldn't slant downward. Make it come straight down like rain, makes more sense and it wouldn't feel more rng based again. Make his 2 and 3 the same. Don't make him stay inside the puddle just let them continuously drown like how Inaros makes them stagger with his "sand attack" it's super effective on them just do kind of the same. Keep his 4 his 4 or change it to 3 and give him some type of new ability. As for the Kraken, maybe it should move around and seek enemies? I mean the nice thing is that it can be charged but the face is just kinda visual but doesn't do anything and Hydroid definitely feels like the opposite of what the game should be;fast paste. His Kraken definitely slows down combat I want it be changed somehow for the better I think seeking enemies and devouring them with the tentacles would be cool or something.

[Drachenblaut]

I believe hydroid's first ability would not feel the same as the rainstorm, this due to the fact that barrage Is a hard cc ability, and the rain would be constant mediocre cc. The synergy with the puddle Is still there, because he still has the puddle. And I also added a synergy between the energy restored by the rain, which he could use to sustain a draining ability like puddle/Kraken, and the health dead enemies would provide, turning a wet mediocre fish, into a frame that can sustain both his health and energy. Maybe he would somehow be OP, but then we have things like Inaros, Chroma, Nidus, Rhino, etc.

[(PSN)lhbuch]

12 hours ago, Lyravain said:

In the words of Rob (who I don't always agree with, but I agree with on this): If old Hydrod was chocolate, they made him into a chocolate cake. If you like chocolate, you'll like the rework. If you don't like chocolate, you were never going to like Hydroid period.

And I guess that this is the exact problem with the update. Hydroid mains are happy but they are only a very small part of the player base.

I cant see how this update will make people who never played Hydroid to start using him. 

The vast majority of players who actually never use Hydroid were hoping a complete rework of his powers and all that happened was a Qol tweak, not a complete rework.

If things dont change, the upcoming PA has a risk to be a complete fail. Or DE can pull the Nekros Prime PA trick which had Galatine and Tigris included - make Ballistica a nuclear bomb...

[NLRose]

First I want to say I like the buffs to Hydroid's abilities, however there are some problems I noticed that I think could really improve the revisit.

1- Have Tentacle swarm knock down enemies on hit instead of pick them up. It's too hard for players to hit enemies being CCed by Tentacle swarm without AOE weapons and attacks. This would make Hydroid A LOT LESS FRUSTRATING to play and play with.

2- Remove the speed and distance decreases from using Tidal Surge in Undertow. The idea behind using his 2 in his 3 is to quickly re-locate to keep up with your team while using Undertow, nerfing the speed while in undertow just contradicts the use of this ability.

3- Increase movement speed while in Undertow.  The movement speed while in Undertow is just too slow. having it is nice, but you move so slow that any use I could think of using it for is immediately negated by simply running out of energy before you get there.

4- Apply all damage instances that hit Hydroid's Undertow to all enemies trapped in Undertow. All of the changes in this revisit serve the purpose of allowing his abilities to facilitate Undertow, however Undertow does not currently facilitate ANY of his other abilities. Undertow effectively removes enemies from the battle field to prevent your allies from attacking them, and None of Hydroid's abilities do enough damage. By allowing damage instances and status effects to be applied to all enemies in undertow, Other players could now have synergy with him, AND it would be usable to buff and spread damage from his abilities and single shot weapons. This would allow enemies taking damage from Tempest Barrage to be hit by all of the instance of the skill that hit Hydroid instead of just one. This would also allow tentacle swarm to do massive damage when combined with undertow since each tentacle would be constantly hitting all the enemies inside. Combining this with any sniper would create a massive death trap giving high power single target weapons an indirect buff and improved purpose in the game.

 

[ImadetheBoats]

Honestly all I want from this is for Undertow to negate enemy auras while they're caught up in it. ancient healers and energy leech eximus being caught in the puddle on accident and having to come back up to deal with them specifically is a pain.

[leadwolf1]

SO DE In three hours after I posted the question for hydroid players there was no response. Not a I do not like it , Not a suck on egg , not a sure it could work. That leads me to believe that most of the players are not really reading anything and do not really care about a better hydroid they just want you to only listen to their idea. Also the majority of players posting have not been using hydroid and really probably do not plan on for anything else other than mastery . In the videos it is made clear that they do no either, they even state it , so are you going to listen to players that can video and do not play and all of the beginners in the game as well as all the players that clearly state they do not use the frame but did so to test the abilities, or from the players who want a better hydroid  that use him ? The ball is in your court and you will do what you feel is needed , I know. but also really read these , you can tell some are from kids that are not even suppose to be playing this game, when all they care about is the kraken and wanting it to follow them. with no real effort on how to make it better.  SO with that out of the way I have read some good ideas from other players, ! I have already posted and will leave it at that , but  having hydroid go into water form and being immune to damage is not bad for water skin makes no sense.

 If no one wants the undertow any longer as an ability.

All CC abilities need better targeting. meaning turn 1 into 4 and make his immunity ( turning into water) a 1 make this barrage scale with enemies, turn the syndicate mod for undertow into shield stripping to be able to change builds going up against different factions.

I also believe that if you take a mod slot up that mod should also work perfectly, meaning the health need to heal faster everyone wants a fast pace game. 

the 100% corrosive should turn all enemies in effected area to red bar health only , after all if I throw a bucket of water on you or the wall next to you, you will still get soaked, meaning it should apply. 

ok hear are some more ideas I like from others with a little added from me hoping to make a better hydroid, and not a totally new frame .

[Asdryu]

I just went around and something triggered me a little bit so I wanted to share a little secret of his.
Undertow was and is one of my favorite abilities of all time and not in a memeing super-jump way (for whoever remember it).

It had some good synergy for some protective frames, like, making the puddle inside frost's globe to protect some targets and anything can't get close to it, and it is a good method to recover. Now they didn't remove it and I'm happy, but they didn't just do that. They improved it by making it more fluid and more functional EXACTLY how I wanted if not better.

And in case you didn't know, since now Barrage can be casted WHILE in Undertow too, even nullifiers got s*** on you. But enough talk
 

 

[takeshiblue]

15 minutes ago, NLRose said:

First I want to say I like the buffs to Hydroid's abilities, however there are some problems I noticed that I think could really improve the revisit.

1- Have Tentacle swarm knock down enemies on hit instead of pick them up. It's too hard for players to hit enemies being CCed by Tentacle swarm without AOE weapons and attacks. This would make Hydroid A LOT LESS FRUSTRATING to play and play with.

 

 

most definitely 

[FoxFX]

1 minute ago, leadwolf1 said:

SO DE In three hours after I posted the question for hydroid players there was no response. Not a I do not like it , Not a suck on egg , not a sure it could work. That leads me to believe that most of the players are not really reading anything and do not really care about a better hydroid they just want you to only listen to their idea. Also the majority of players posting have not been using hydroid and really probably do not plan on for anything else other than mastery . In the videos it is made clear that they do no either, they even state it , so are you going to listen to players that can video and do not play and all of the beginners in the game as well as all the players that clearly state they do not use the frame but did so to test the abilities, or from the players who want a better hydroid  that use him ? The ball is in your court and you will do what you feel is needed , I know. but also really read these , you can tell some are from kids that are not even suppose to be playing this game, when all they care about is the kraken and wanting it to follow them. with no real effort on how to make it better.  SO with that out of the way I have read some good ideas from other players, ! I have already posted and will leave it at that , but  having hydroid go into water form and being immune to damage is not bad for water skin makes no sense.

 If no one wants the undertow any longer as an ability.

All CC abilities need better targeting. meaning turn 1 into 4 and make his immunity ( turning into water) a 1 make this barrage scale with enemies, turn the syndicate mod for undertow into shield stripping to be able to change builds going up against different factions.

I also believe that if you take a mod slot up that mod should also work perfectly, meaning the health need to heal faster everyone wants a fast pace game. 

the 100% corrosive should turn all enemies in effected area to red bar health only , after all if I throw a bucket of water on you or the wall next to you, you will still get soaked, meaning it should apply. 

ok hear are some more ideas I like from others with a little added from me hoping to make a better hydroid, and not a totally new frame .

 

Undertow has its place, but there are ways we can make it a lethal ability that adds a limited time protection for Hydroid and a lethal damage ability.

 

• Some from what I've chatted thought of enemies caught in Undertow to show parts of their bodies like they are floating but stuck in the water allowing allies to target them for attack.
• Some wanted the Energy Drain increased with the Damage Per Second effect increasing as well. (Undertow)
• Some have strangely enough suggested Tentacle Swarm to be turned into a holding ability where holding the ability allows the water monster to grab the enemies with the Tentacles then systematically slam enemies down for greater damage following the same damage effect of Undertow.

There is some way to work around what we have for Hydroid now. We just need to think up something that wouldn't be too much of a drastic change.

[(PSN)OmegaSlayer]

Just as Limbo can enter the rift with slide, transform Hydroid into water when he slides...counter for that, remove some base armor.

[(PSN)Kiteshade]

I feel like Hydroid should have a similar feel to Nidus in terms of gameplay. A hard crowd control angle would suit him perfectly and I will explain why.

My idea: I believe his 2nd and 3rd ability should stay as they are with the removal of the (unlisted in patch notes!) range nerfs and only slight changes. I want to focus on his 1 and 4.

Hydroid's 1st ability: Change it completely. I'd replace it with a water bubble/water prison. It would be able to contain a single target. Now I know I said hard crowd control but hear me out.

The special property of this bubble would be it's ability to completely cut the abilities of the enemy contained within it. Cracked a nullie bubble but gotta move out of the way fast? Throw em in the prison. In practice it would keep them from releasing their drone to reform the bubble (If hit by the bubble of another nullie from outside the bubble it would obviously burst, however). Ancient healer or any of the variety of eximus units getting on your nerves? Bubble em. No ability of the enemy contained within would reach its allies. It is HIGHLY important that it does not stop the generation of these abilities altogether. (More on that in a sec)

You would also be able to shoot the bubble and similarly to Nyx's 1 or Nidus's 3, any damage done to the bubble target would be done in a burst, killing them if enough damage is dealt. Furthermore, in a manner not unlike mag's 2, the bubble would deal a percentage of the damage done to it in a burst of a small aoe (I place this percentage at a base of 25% like mag) 

This bubble would prevent support units from providing support to enemy units for the duration of the ability. Base duration would be 12-15 seconds.

Note. To mitigate disrupting the fast pace we are all use to moving at in WF, after containing an enemy cast 1 on the contained enemy to burst the bubble early. Cast 1 on an empty space WHILE AN ENEMY IS STILL CONTAINED to teleport contained enemy to selected spot.

Now you may be thinking. Why not just kill the enemy unit in question? Simple. Remember when I mentioned not cutting the generation of these buffs? Well, why not use them for yourself and your squad.

The New augment for Hydroid's 1: Osmosis Link - Buffs provided by enemies contained in the bubble are transferred to hydroid. (Base range of Maxed mod is 50m. Affected by Ability Range)

Trying to survive difficult exterminates or desire to go for broke in survival. Bubble an eximus unit to transform it's annoying enemy buff into a boon for your team. Note: The passive of healers to be healed by enemy damage is obviously off limits. Also, nullies provide buffs ONLY if they are eximus units. Tenno will not gain nullie bubble generators. For further balance, ONLY Hydroid will be affected by initial buff. EX. If Hydroid throws a Ancient healer eximus or Energy leech eximus into a bubble, he will become the new generator of the eximus's aura, to be passed to those in range of him.

Continuing with the Ancient healer example, hydroid will then periodically heal allies and provide damage reduction (Of a moderate but fair degree as to not be game breaking or step on trinity's toes). As for the eximus energy leech example, hydroid would not drain energy from enemies but instead cancel out the aura of other energy leeches for himself and his team within range of him.

So to simplify, allies within range of hydroid while he is in range of the bubble are effected by the aura he takes from enemies. 

This concludes my thoughts on his new 1.

Hydroid's 2nd ability: Stays the same as pre-range nerf(Along with spectacular new water visuals, thank you DE for that). Possibly add a charging feature to increase height of water to snatch airborne enemies or width or for additional damage.

Hydroid's 3rd ability: Should scale in damage based on enemies in the pool (Base damage+5%enemy max health damage over time with additional 2% for every enemy in the pool). This incentivizes players to gather more enemies by combining Hydroid's 2nd and 3rd abilities. (Damage over time percentages NOT affected by power strength). Charging feature usable only in conjunction with 2nd and 4th abilities to grab more enemies, for the purposes of his 2nd or 4th (More in a sec)

Hydroid's 4th ability: Love love love the addition of the Kraken. Keep it. Pre-range nerf values should be returned. Instead charge the ability to initiate a state in which the tentacles grab enemies and remain motionless, instead constricting enemies for damage over time while also providing CC. Cast while in Hydroid's 3rd to safely cast tentacle swarm OR cast Hydroids 3rd over tentacle swarm and then cast tidal surge to move tentacle swarm to a more desirable location. In this way, pilfering swarm can still be used without change AND Hydroid can effectively CC on the level of rhino (This comes from the experience of wanting to kill enemies captured by tentacles but being unable to because of constant flailing. Now we have both the old and a new method).

This concludes my thoughts on the opportunity that is presented with this rework. Please forgive an spell errors as I wrote this in an impassioned frenzy. I really love this warframe (Plus water is my favorite element alongside electricity and Squids/Octopodes are #2 of my favorite creatures on earth)

Feel free to tear this to pieces of point what I could have missed or got mixed up. The goal of a rework is to entice Hydroids lovers AND naysayers to play him. We should all work to make him a joy to run anything with for everyone.

Thanks for reading :)

[Koldraxon-732]

I return. Although now I can't find my last comment, this build* so far is what's making my Hydroid able to use his powers as intended, at a significant cost to his durability.

*Build is a WIP and my MR is 18, leaving 24 capacity left (Reactor installed).

Spoiler

This build allows for greater efficiency, but at a significant cost to duration.

After using him in a number of situations I have come to a conclusion similar to my original conclusion before I even used him.

The full extent of this is in this spoiler. There are no spoilers in this one.

Spoiler

Hydroid's Passive as of now: Useless (to me, at least).
Damage output of powers: Could do with elemental effects like Viral, Toxin, Cold and Corrosive.

Tempest Barrage: If you heard the meme about Star Wars, Stormtroopers, and inaccuracy, this thing embodies it.
To fix this:

Spoiler

1: The 'watery' barrage should become hail, which, upon impact, freezes the ground - causing enemies to trip.
2: Lightning strikes will directly hit targets.
3: The original barrage will me amplified by about 10 times and be 'very heavy' 'rain'.
4: Due to the very high damage output it will be doing after these changes, it's new location will be the 3rd ability.

Tidal Surge: Converted into sliding effect due to being a harmless, wider version of Rhino Charge. Triggers whenever you slide. Does not work in the air.

Replacement: Pirate's Anchor;

Spoiler

pull a Void-stricken anchor out of the Void and throw it at the enemy, successful hits deal finisher damage and impacts on surface cause Undertow, which would drag enemies after the Anchor as the Void reels it back in. If enemies pass beyond the Void rift, they instantly die, but drop no loot. This is Hydroid's new 1st ability.

Undertow: Converted into crouching effect and will link with Tidal Surge to act as Hydroid's new Passive: Hydroform; crouching causes Undertow, sliding causes Tidal Surge.

Replacement: Capt'n's Cannon;

Spoiler

the Kraken pulls up a Void-scarred cannon, allowing Hydroid to blow up his enemies like the pirate he is, on his biological pirate 'ship' of a pet; cannot slide, crouch, jump, bullet jump, cling to walls, run, or even walk, or use other weapons or gear when the cannon is in use. It is an Exalted weapon but has limited ammunition. Normal movement relies on the Kraken which acts as a surfboard with undertow following it. Due to all of this, it drains energy.

Tentacle Swarm: Doesn't do enough damage, and serves the same purpose as Radial Blind, Terrify, Petrify.
To fix this:
 

Spoiler

1: Tentacles have two attack stages and three different attacks, and can only stick to one of these. They deal damage based off the caught target's hp, armour, and shields.
 1Aa: Attack stage 1: Search. The tendril does not show up until an enemy enters Swarm's radius.
1Ab: Attack stage 2: Attack. The tendril uses one of three attacks.
1B: Pin. Slams on the enemy, knocking and locking them in the 'knocked over/struggling' animation. Sentient Fighters are not immune to this.
1C: Wrap. Curls around the target, exposing them and immobilizing them, opening them to easy sniper shots. Helpful for Harrow.
1D: Swat. Smashes the target against nearby surfaces in a predictable manner.
The tentacles may change attacks randomly, but after an enemy is caught they are slow and predictable, but deal finisher damage.
2: The Kraken will surface and eat one/two/three enemies based on it's level, instantly gibbing them. Mechanical enemies are puked back out in pieces and as energy.
3: If Hydroid recasts while a Swarm is already active, damage and duration are multiplied.

Hydroid revisited; Kol perspective.
What I think would make Hydroid more appealing, and make this revisit more than just another Rhino or Volt rework.

 

Spoiler

 

-Passive MK2: Hydroform.
Crouching causes Undertow (display Undertow stats).
Sliding causes Tidal Surge (display Tidal Surge stats).

Power 1: Void-Anchor/Trident. 
Hydroid hurls a Void-tethered Anchor/Trident towards a target, impailing it and then causing a backwards Tidal Surge, pulling and damaging enemies until they meet the Void rift, where they are disintegrated by unmitigated Void energy virtually instantly. Such energy may also harm Hydroid and allies if they go too close; doesn't harm objectives.
Enemies that are disintegrated only drop resources or energy.

Power 2: Captain's Favourite Cannon.
Hydroid commands Kraken to bring his personalized artillery weapon to the surface, allowing him to destroy his foes with this deadly, triangular, three-barreled cannon, mounted on the back of his pet Kraken, allowing him to surf a perpetually regenerating tide until he runs out of energy. This means Hydroid cannot move normally, but can surge over obstacles and through the air (albeit briefly). Essentially, Hydroid's Kraken is his pirate ship. All enemies killed by this only drop resources, or energy.

Power 3: Tempest Storm (could be like Vauban's multi-purpose grenades).
Hydroid sunders a Void rift, causing inclement weather. Such weather includes; very heavy rain - which knocks down, slows, or briefly submerges, enemies caught, also causes corrosive or viral damage at random, always hits targets in the radius of Tempest Storm due to frequency of rain; explosive hail - which causes cold, puncture, and slash procs if nearby enemies are hit with it's explosions, doesn't always hit targets; dangerous lightning strikes - these always hit their targets and causes them to be stunned and exposed to other damage types, causing finisher damage.

Power 4: Hungry Kraken (tentacle swarm, but the kraken does something).
Hydroid rouses his Kraken to wake, causing tendrils to flail and pin enemies down. The Kraken will swim around within the radius and eat a random, small number (more than 3, less than 11) of targets, often puking up ammunition, health orbs, or even resources (augment exclusive). Tendrils will cause impact and Void damage, due to the Kraken manipulating Void energies to allow it's tentacles to be where they are, thus explaining their different texture. Primed versions:

Anchor/Trident has a Primed/Orokin look to it.

Spoiler

The cannon is some kind of Orokin-era tank version of, but still a precursor to, the Zarr. Looks and sounds Primed/Orokin.

The hail is tinted by the metallic tint.

The Kraken has a huge golden collar on it, and it's tendrils erupt from little Void portals.

The 'water' has a Voidy glow 'beneath' it.

 

My main gripes about Hydroid right now:
-Passive isn't useful, Hydroid seems like he has no passive at all.
-Powers do little to no damage and scale badly with enemies, making him more useful to keep enemies away from weak allies as they go to extraction rather than actually kill and defend objectives or anything seriously useful.
-Tidal Surge and Undertow feel more like a passive.
-Hydroid's Tempest Barrage chargeup needs an animation, and time taken to charge them up needs to be halved at least.

[SenorClipClop]

35 minutes ago, ImadetheBoats said:

for Undertow to negate enemy auras while they're caught up in it

This would be great! :)

[Koldraxon-732]

While I like Undertow, I feel that it and Tidal Surge should be moved into the Passive section, overriding the lackluster passive we have now by setting Undertow to Crouch, and Tidal Surge to Slide.

This way, we get a better passive and room for new powers.

On top of that, his powers could do with doing more damage or have elemental damage (Viral/Corrosive, perhaps) to help make him more capable in the field.

Edited August 12, 2017 by Koldraxon-732

[O.O_]

Melee is lethal, Hydroid still sucks, but at least his abilities look better now...

[leadwolf1]

5 minutes ago, FoxFX said:

 

Undertow has its place, but there are ways we can make it a lethal ability that adds a limited time protection for Hydroid and a lethal damage ability.

 

• Some from what I've chatted thought of enemies caught in Undertow to show parts of their bodies like they are floating but stuck in the water allowing allies to target them for attack.
• Some wanted the Energy Drain increased with the Damage Per Second effect increasing as well. (Undertow)
• Some have strangely enough suggested Tentacle Swarm to be turned into a holding ability where holding the ability allows the water monster to grab the enemies with the Tentacles then systematically slam enemies down for greater damage following the same damage effect of Undertow.

There is some way to work around what we have for Hydroid now. We just need to think up something that wouldn't be too much of a drastic change.

I am in agreement with this, but having half submerged only allows allies to shoot the enemies leaving hydroid a basic puddle using random barrage as well as tentacle to do damage which is not a lot of damage. and you know as well as I do with barrage and enemies being knocked all over by tentacles around the submerged half enemies it would still be pretty hard to see them depending on you location . this would happen from players.

so the next is holding, as potato said in his video other frames do it better, you have ivara sleep arrow you have equnox sleep you have harrow chaines. all these frames stop the enemy so they can be killed. 

SO lets come up with something that would make hydroid a bit more mobile, high end play and still able to farm as not to get players made who actually use this all the time , and 3 or more frames do better, can you think of any,  I can  and it was not my idea, but no one responded, having the enemy go into undertow and have armor stripped and shields was someone else's idea, I added to remove ancients abilities, let me explain the mechanics behind what I think should happen with this,  and read before dismissing it. as the enemies drop into undertow armor or what ever is stripped. once done they are pushed out of the pool and in being pushed they stagger opening up to finishers, have this a quick ability, like ripping off a Velcro  latch, this allows for a faster pace play style and with the low cc strength it will now damage enemies faster if no allies are there to help kill. The biggest plus of all is it will be the only frame to remove acient  abilities in the game. Yes I know that mag and oberon ca do the armor and mag can do the shields , but remember , this was nerfed mag use to be the frame to play for corpus and oxium farming along time ago. I do appreciate your dialog  and would very much like to hear your thoughts. What really do you have or did you read that would answer the question.

[IceColdHawk]

Not to be a party pooper but while this looks all hilarious and funny, it's simply inefficient and takes too long, in a game where time is precious. I don't wanna imagine playing a survival like that. Especially considering most of your dmg part came of the tempests augment which stripped armor, which is no rocket science anymore in warframe. So anything other than grineer this method is just delaying the death. And since he's like 100% pure CC, he's best in defense-type missions. Not very useful in any non-endless mission. But even in defense, it's not cool to delay the mission or taking away enemies from your team through undertow or flinging them around randomly and make it a hard time killing them.

Hydroid is the typical "fun character". He is unique and can create hilarious moments but the thing is, this can get boring pretty quickly and even after this "rework" which was just making him literally more fluid to play, he doesn't really stand on 2 legs currently (metaphorically speaking). Thinking about it, he could actually need like complete new abilities. Why the dash and knockback or the area knockdown when i can fling all enemies around the room or have them inside a puddle? He really doesn't need all that. Unless DE wants hydroid to be a simple fun character, they should reconsider the rework and think how hydroids kit works in actual gameplay.

Edited August 12, 2017 by IceColdHawk

[FoxFX]

13 minutes ago, leadwolf1 said:

I am in agreement with this, but having half submerged only allows allies to shoot the enemies leaving hydroid a basic puddle using random barrage as well as tentacle to do damage which is not a lot of damage. and you know as well as I do with barrage and enemies being knocked all over by tentacles around the submerged half enemies it would still be pretty hard to see them depending on you location . this would happen from players.

so the next is holding, as potato said in his video other frames do it better, you have ivara sleep arrow you have equnox sleep you have harrow chaines. all these frames stop the enemy so they can be killed. 

SO lets come up with something that would make hydroid a bit more mobile, high end play and still able to farm as not to get players made who actually use this all the time , and 3 or more frames do better, can you think of any,  I can  and it was not my idea, but no one responded, having the enemy go into undertow and have armor stripped and shields was someone else's idea, I added to remove ancients abilities, let me explain the mechanics behind what I think should happen with this,  and read before dismissing it. as the enemies drop into undertow armor or what ever is stripped. once done they are pushed out of the pool and in being pushed they stagger opening up to finishers, have this a quick ability, like ripping off a Velcro  latch, this allows for a faster pace play style and with the low cc strength it will now damage enemies faster if no allies are there to help kill. The biggest plus of all is it will be the only frame to remove acient  abilities in the game. Yes I know that mag and oberon ca do the armor and mag can do the shields , but remember , this was nerfed mag use to be the frame to play for corpus and oxium farming along time ago. I do appreciate your dialog  and would very much like to hear your thoughts. What really do you have or did you read that would answer the question.

 

If it is mobility that is meant to be desired and if we want to remove the randomness of Tentacle Swarm, there is also other ideas to use:

• What if we remove Hydroid's ability to turn into water with Undertow and make it into some sort of "Dome of Water" that Hydroid can trap enemies in?
  • It would retain the whole DPS that Undertow has.
  • Enemies will be afloat in this dome OR unable to exit the dome and are slower inside it
  • Hydroid and other players can enter the Water Dome to attack enemies in the Water Dome of Undertow. Their movement isn't slowed down like the enemies. Players can even fire inside of the Water Dome but perhaps a cool visual effect of a slower bullet travel once it enters the dome.
  • The Water Dome of Undertow can pop and deal Blast Damage if enough attacks land on the Dome. Hydroid's Tidal Surge can pop the Dome immediately dealing greater damage.
  • Tentacle Swarm activated in the Water Dome will cost less energy and pull outside enemies into the Water Dome with Tentacles.
• For Tentacle Swarm, making it a CC ability that damages and that keeps enemies still can be possible if it was something like a powerful version of Equinox's Rest, but then again many players wouldn't want another "copy" of the ability.

So in my suggestion, Hydroid won't be turning into a "water puddle" but will create a "Dome of Water" to trap enemies inside.

Edited August 12, 2017 by FoxFX

[leadwolf1]

38 minutes ago, (PS4)Kitetsu18 said:

I feel like Hydroid should have a similar feel to Nidus in terms of gameplay. A hard crowd control angle would suit him perfectly and I will explain why.

My idea: I believe his 2nd and 3rd ability should stay as they are with the removal of the (unlisted in patch notes!) range nerfs and only slight changes. I want to focus on his 1 and 4.

Hydroid's 1st ability: Change it completely. I'd replace it with a water bubble/water prison. It would be able to contain a single target. Now I know I said hard crowd control but hear me out.

The special property of this bubble would be it's ability to completely cut the abilities of the enemy contained within it. Cracked a nullie bubble but gotta move out of the way fast? Throw em in the prison. In practice it would keep them from releasing their drone to reform the bubble (If hit by the bubble of another nullie from outside the bubble it would obviously burst, however). Ancient healer or any of the variety of eximus units getting on your nerves? Bubble em. No ability of the enemy contained within would reach its allies. It is HIGHLY important that it does not stop the generation of these abilities altogether. (More on that in a sec)

You would also be able to shoot the bubble and similarly to Nyx's 1 or Nidus's 3, any damage done to the bubble target would be done in a burst, killing them if enough damage is dealt. Furthermore, in a manner not unlike mag's 2, the bubble would deal a percentage of the damage done to it in a burst of a small aoe (I place this percentage at a base of 25% like mag) 

This bubble would prevent support units from providing support to enemy units for the duration of the ability. Base duration would be 12-15 seconds.

Note. To mitigate disrupting the fast pace we are all use to moving at in WF, after containing an enemy cast 1 on the contained enemy to burst the bubble early. Cast 1 on an empty space WHILE AN ENEMY IS STILL CONTAINED to teleport contained enemy to selected spot.

Now you may be thinking. Why not just kill the enemy unit in question? Simple. Remember when I mentioned not cutting the generation of these buffs? Well, why not use them for yourself and your squad.

The New augment for Hydroid's 1: Osmosis Link - Buffs provided by enemies contained in the bubble are transferred to hydroid. (Base range of Maxed mod is 50m. Affected by Ability Range)

Trying to survive difficult exterminates or desire to go for broke in survival. Bubble an eximus unit to transform it's annoying enemy buff into a boon for your team. Note: The passive of healers to be healed by enemy damage is obviously off limits. Also, nullies provide buffs ONLY if they are eximus units. Tenno will not gain nullie bubble generators. For further balance, ONLY Hydroid will be affected by initial buff. EX. If Hydroid throws a Ancient healer eximus or Energy leech eximus into a bubble, he will become the new generator of the eximus's aura, to be passed to those in range of him.

Continuing with the Ancient healer example, hydroid will then periodically heal allies and provide damage reduction (Of a moderate but fair degree as to not be game breaking or step on trinity's toes). As for the eximus energy leech example, hydroid would not drain energy from enemies but instead cancel out the aura of other energy leeches for himself and his team within range of him.

So to simplify, allies within range of hydroid while he is in range of the bubble are effected by the aura he takes from enemies. 

This concludes my thoughts on his new 1.

Hydroid's 2nd ability: Stays the same as pre-range nerf(Along with spectacular new water visuals, thank you DE for that). Possibly add a charging feature to increase height of water to snatch airborne enemies or width or for additional damage.

Hydroid's 3rd ability: Should scale in damage based on enemies in the pool (Base damage+5%enemy max health damage over time with additional 2% for every enemy in the pool). This incentivizes players to gather more enemies by combining Hydroid's 2nd and 3rd abilities. (Damage over time percentages NOT affected by power strength). Charging feature usable only in conjunction with 2nd and 4th abilities to grab more enemies, for the purposes of his 2nd or 4th (More in a sec)

Hydroid's 4th ability: Love love love the addition of the Kraken. Keep it. Pre-range nerf values should be returned. Instead charge the ability to initiate a state in which the tentacles grab enemies and remain motionless, instead constricting enemies for damage over time while also providing CC. Cast while in Hydroid's 3rd to safely cast tentacle swarm OR cast Hydroids 3rd over tentacle swarm and then cast tidal surge to move tentacle swarm to a more desirable location. In this way, pilfering swarm can still be used without change AND Hydroid can effectively CC on the level of rhino (This comes from the experience of wanting to kill enemies captured by tentacles but being unable to because of constant flailing. Now we have both the old and a new method).

This concludes my thoughts on the opportunity that is presented with this rework. Please forgive an spell errors as I wrote this in an impassioned frenzy. I really love this warframe (Plus water is my favorite element alongside electricity and Squids/Octopodes are #2 of my favorite creatures on earth)

Feel free to tear this to pieces of point what I could have missed or got mixed up. The goal of a rework is to entice Hydroids lovers AND naysayers to play him. We should all work to make him a joy to run anything with for everyone.

Thanks for reading :)

how  you want to make three stay the same and do more damage for more enemies  sounds great on paper, the facts are no other player in this game is going to let you build up enough when running with a team and not doing it solo, they will not allow harrow do all of his and they do not sit back and allow nidus to build his stacks for a lack of better explanation. If nidus stays with the group it is hard for him as well as harrow, nidus has the parasite grabbing the enemies going for him but, enough fire power from allies and he get no stacks. so with hydroid I do not think it would work well. scaling in this manner.

[Birdframe_Prime]

WOO! In before the moderator! Just a fair warning, they'll either remove or ask you to remove the 'megathread' tag, that's for moderator use only.

[Ceryk]

I like the idea of Undertow, but I don't think they did enough to make it useful. They gave you the ability to move while using it for extra energy cost, but you move so slow it's not even remotely worth bothering with even if it didn't have an added energy cost. They gave him ever increasing damage, but it's so low and the increase is so slow that it's not particularly worth using as a damage power. They gave you the ability to grab enemies and pull them in, but the puddle size is now so small that it's become virtually useless without the grab (which takes WAY too much energy to use since you have to wait forever for dot to increase to useful damage levels). Not to mention because the puddle size is so small now, you can't heal your allies with it with the augment to any reasonable degree. The heal is already pretty slow, so not having any range on it at all makes it quite useless for anyone other than Hydroid and the point of it wasn't just for it to be used by Hydroid.

Lot of this is easily fixed too. He just needs some tweaks, especially on Undertow, like after the abysmal initial rework to Oberon, and he'll be good.

Edited August 12, 2017 by Ceryk

[Rammone-X]

Here are my thoughts on Hydroid and a new passive mechanic I was thinking about...

 

Feedback for Hydroid:

Passive Review

I think the passive needs to be reconsidered. I don't really see any viable utility to the spawned tentacle after a ground slam. In addition, it's not very consistent. Sometimes it spawns and sometimes not. Synchronizing the mechanics of his passive with his other skills, or basing it on something akin to water might work better. i.e. 

New Idea on Passive (perhaps): "Bloated" - Any enemies hit by any of Hydroid's skills have an x% chance to take in water and become bloated. Bloated enemies have obscured vision, reduced movement speed, or they are stun-locked because they almost drowned and are now unconscious, [INSERT negative effect for enemies here], etc...

And maybe each of his 4 skills have their own specific threshold for "bloatedness" i.e. if hit with Tempest Barrage and the enemy becomes bloated, the enemy's bloatedness would be only 20%, but if hit with undertow, and dragged underwater, when they re-emerge (if they don't die) then the enemy's bloatedness would be 75% ~ 100%. So there are 2 metrics - (1) The percentage chance of becoming bloated and (2) How much bloated the enemy becomes when they have the effect based on the skill used.

 

Skills Review

General Comments: I think the range of Tempest Barrage and Tentacle Swarm need to be reset back to what they were originally. Undertow's range needs to be increased considerably to make it more viable. The issue here is he doesn't do enough damage to warrant the reduction in range. So effectively, most people will build him for CC, and It makes more sense to have a squishy-CC frame, but not one with incredibly little range. 

Additionally, what we got with this update was just "more of the same" imo. However, I think with some more tweaks, he could become viable as a very effective CC-frame. Here are my suggestions. (Note - they work with the passive listed above)

 

Tempest Barrage

• Set it's range to what it was originally (or at the very least increase it considerably). You can have it use more energy as a way to balance it with the increased range. People (I think) will be ok with this because of Arcanes and Zenurik etc.
• I think some improved AI targeting is needed here, or the frequency of the rain drops need to be increased. The drops are not as frequent, and so as a result (I feel) the utility is slightly diminished. Here are some suggestions - 
  • You could actually make it so that power strength increases the frequency of rain drops. This will add another dynamic to how he could be modded. I modded my Hydroid for Range and Duration - specifically to use with the corrosive augment. Having the ability to increase the frequency of his rain drops, and thereby increasing the chance of the corrosive proc (as a result of the augment) would be great.
  • Or you could have the rain drops target a certain number of enemies. This could also improve the utility of this skill
• I would also have Tempest Barrage work with my bloated passive. Maybe when Tempest Barrage successfully makes an enemy bloated, inflicts a 20% bloated status i.e. the enemy ingested 20% of their body weight in water or something.

 

Tidal Surge

I think this skill is fine the way it is. I would just have it inflict a bloated status i.e. it inflicts 35% bloatedness etc.

 

Undertow

I would also tweak this to improve it a little. I think the changes to this skill are actually very good. However, it's range needs to be increased. The puddle is just not viable. During Infested Excavation, I expect the puddle to cover a sizable surface area around the excavator when I cast the skill as I stand right next to the excavator. Right now it's not the case and even with 2 Hydroids, it isn't easy to completely CC-control an excavator from raging infested. So for this I would do the following:

• Have the range of this skill increased. Increased range will cause you to use more energy when you move with it activated.
• Have it inflict 100% Bloatedness if the effect actually triggers and the enemy re-emerges from being underwater. i.e. the enemy almost drowned, and maybe they become stun-locked because they are unconscious

 

Tentacle Swarm

I think this skill needs to be reconsidered a lot. The flopping and flapping quite frankly isn't working. Here are my thoughts.

 

• Tentacles emerge from water (obviously) so how about this: Tentacles have a chance to grab and take enemies under water. When enemies are under water, they have a chance to become bloated (as in the passive) and their bloatedness capacity will increase over time (they won't become bloated while under water) - to be inline with the mechanics of the skill itself. When they eventually emerge (if they don't die from the skill), and if they got the chance to become bloated, their bloated status starts, and the actual measure of bloatedness which was calculated while they were under water will be applied to them.
  • So this is what I mean. Assume Swarm's base bloatedness capacity is 65%. Then I cast swarm. It grabs an enemy and takes him under water. After about 5 secs, say the enemy by chance gets bloated. At this point, that enemy's bloatedness is 65%, and that value begins to increase at a specific rate over time. Say I kept him underwater for a minute and his bloatedness capacity grew from 65% to 78%. Then the skill's duration elapses and he re-emerges. His bloatedness status now starts with a 78% bloated capacity

Edited August 12, 2017 by Rammone-X
quick typo correction

[leadwolf1]

25 minutes ago, FoxFX said:

 

If it is mobility that is meant to be desired and if we want to remove the randomness of Tentacle Swarm, there is also other ideas to use:

• What if we remove Hydroid's ability to turn into water with Undertow and make it into some sort of "Dome of Water" that Hydroid can trap enemies in?
  • It would retain the whole DPS that Undertow has.
  • Enemies will be afloat in this dome OR unable to exit the dome and are slower inside it
  • Hydroid and other players can enter the Water Dome to attack enemies in the Water Dome of Undertow. Their movement isn't slowed down like the enemies. Players can even fire inside of the Water Dome but perhaps a cool visual effect of a slower bullet travel once it enters the dome.
  • The Water Dome of Undertow can pop and deal Blast Damage if enough attacks land on the Dome. Hydroid's Tidal Surge can pop the Dome immediately dealing greater damage.
  • Tentacle Swarm activated in the Water Dome will cost less energy and pull outside enemies into the Water Dome with Tentacles.
• For Tentacle Swarm, making it a CC ability that damages and that keeps enemies still can be possible if it was something like a powerful version of Equinox's Rest, but then again many players wouldn't want another "copy" of the ability.

So in my suggestion, Hydroid won't be turning into a "water puddle" but will create a "Dome of Water" to trap enemies inside.

I actually kind of like that idea. But yours sounds more like a frost globe, how about this, the basic structure of a nullifier dome able to move just like they do. Not to slow down the movement of the team, as hydroid move the slowing and allies can do the same thing. give it duration  or damage strength or both, have it scale, same concept when nullifiers keep a bunch of enemies in so we can not attack the inside and when we pop it out come a barrage of enemies at us, only in this water dome they can get killed by the team. now it is mobile to the point even the critic's will have a hard time arguing with.

. this is the pirate controlling the sea itself, commanding it to move with him or something like that. but your way is ok as long as it does a better job slowing than the globe, it seems some still move pretty fast in it.

Other than equinox aura I do not know of another frame that can move  with an aura ability.

Edited August 12, 2017 by leadwolf1
to add more text for explanation

[Vafthrudnir]

Excal can do that stuff in a few seconds, and pretty much every other warframe that can remove armor or boost damage I guess.