Ember's Deluxe Skin Feedback

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

5 minutes ago, Culaio said:

indeed it does, IgnusDei concepts have a lot of personality that sometimes is hard to 'translate' into 3D model as we saw with loki deluxe skin, also that 'personality' of his art could be proof of how much effort he puts into his design and why he can be very stubborn about some of changes DE did to his design(the duct taped glowing 1000 degree knife to ember deluxe skin head, which everyone agreed looked horrible).

I'm really curious to see DE's new ember deluxe though.  Just because I really enjoyed both nova deluxe and saryn deluxe.  Especially the saryn one.  Was ignus the same person who made gersemi too?

[KokoroWish]

IgnisDei was a hired on free-lancer whose contracted work belonged to DE after production and they could do whatever they wanted with it. Including change it to suit their needs. Which is exactly what happened.

 

That the artist decided to throw a fit about it, despite having agreed to those terms is pretty ridiculous given that's how alot of the industry works and he knew what he was getting going into this. The fact that he's taken almost total responsibility for having been let go from DE makes defending him and his vision seem pretty out there as a position to take.

[IggySnow]

1 hour ago, KokoroWish said:

IgnisDei was a hired on free-lancer whose contracted work belonged to DE after production and they could do whatever they wanted with it. Including change it to suit their needs. Which is exactly what happened.

 

That the artist decided to throw a fit about it, despite having agreed to those terms is pretty ridiculous given that's how alot of the industry works and he knew what he was getting going into this. The fact that he's taken almost total responsibility for having been let go from DE makes defending him and his vision seem pretty out there as a position to take.

most people saw that as a problem because of artistic differences. from what I remember Mynki was specifically told not to mess around with the concepts too much if at all because the devs really wanted skins that had a different feel from everything else, but despite that Mynki still made adjustments and changed things to fit his artistic veiws. Hence the Blade on embers head that was added to match with all the other skins. 

Pretty much every artist has a problem with their art being changed by someone other then them self. Most artist I know would actually prefer to redo the entire art piece themselves until the customer is happy then to have anyone else besides them change it. Because when you see someone messing around with something you pour your heart and soul into its practically a giant slap to the face.

[Hypernaut1]

Where are people getting all these detailed facts about the drama from? Was it made public?

[Culaio]

2 hours ago, (Xbox One)Knight Raime said:

I'm really curious to see DE's new ember deluxe though.  Just because I really enjoyed both nova deluxe and saryn deluxe.  Especially the saryn one.  Was ignus the same person who made gersemi too?

I think gersemi is DE's design

1 hour ago, KokoroWish said:

IgnisDei was a hired on free-lancer whose contracted work belonged to DE after production and they could do whatever they wanted with it. Including change it to suit their needs. Which is exactly what happened.

 

That the artist decided to throw a fit about it, despite having agreed to those terms is pretty ridiculous given that's how alot of the industry works and he knew what he was getting going into this. The fact that he's taken almost total responsibility for having been let go from DE makes defending him and his vision seem pretty out there as a position to take.

Well as I mentioned before IgnusDei has a lot of 'personality', it has very unique and specific style to it, art say's a lot about artist and this shows how much effort he made to create those designs, it shows how much he cares about what he creates.

And dont say he isnt flexible I mean he said that he was fine with other changes, hell he even given DE ideas how can they change his design, the banshee deluxe skin shoulder  vinyl record  looking thing was idea that artist given DE(I personally prefered original design of arm without it), only change he wasnt fine with was the whole glowing 1000 degree knife sticking out from ember deluxe head and pretty much all of community agreed with him that it looked ugly. If DE really wanted ember deluxe skin to have head crest thing they should have asked IgnusDei to design one that actually fits the design instead of creating ugly one themselves, I personally would prefer without any head crest , there is no reason to shoehorn head crest on every damn helmet of ember, if people want it they could equip different helmet of ember. but if they REALLY wanted ember deluxe head to have somekind of crest then it should been something that fits design, for example since part of frame looks like armor then they could take inspiration for roman empire helmets, here are some examples that would fit MUCH better:

Also I want to mentioned that DE themselves not always care about frame's theme with their own deluxe skin designs, look at nova deluxe skin, it has nothing to do with nova theme, which is "antimatter", nova deluxe skin completly ignores the theme, ember deluxe skin is closer to origial theme then nova skin is. so its hypocritical for DE to change ember skin to make it closer to original theme.

Lets not forget that DE themselves said that they hired IgnusDei to have some fresh perespetive, they wanted someone who would create designs different from theirs , and then they decided to change his design to match theirs...

 

Fundamentally what got IgnusDei hired was the care he put into his designs, and what got him fired was the very same care, 

 

[octobotimus]

8 hours ago, Culaio said:

I think gersemi is DE's design

Well as I mentioned before IgnusDei has a lot of 'personality', it has very unique and specific style to it, art say's a lot about artist and this shows how much effort he made to create those designs, it shows how much he cares about what he creates.

And dont say he isnt flexible I mean he said that he was fine with other changes, hell he even given DE ideas how can they change his design, the banshee deluxe skin shoulder  vinyl record  looking thing was idea that artist given DE(I personally prefered original design of arm without it), only change he wasnt fine with was the whole glowing 1000 degree knife sticking out from ember deluxe head and pretty much all of community agreed with him that it looked ugly. If DE really wanted ember deluxe skin to have head crest thing they should have asked IgnusDei to design one that actually fits the design instead of creating ugly one themselves, I personally would prefer without any head crest , there is no reason to shoehorn head crest on every damn helmet of ember, if people want it they could equip different helmet of ember. but if they REALLY wanted ember deluxe head to have somekind of crest then it should been something that fits design, for example since part of frame looks like armor then they could take inspiration for roman empire helmets, here are some examples that would fit MUCH better:

Also I want to mentioned that DE themselves not always care about frame's theme with their own deluxe skin designs, look at nova deluxe skin, it has nothing to do with nova theme, which is "antimatter", nova deluxe skin completly ignores the theme, ember deluxe skin is closer to origial theme then nova skin is. so its hypocritical for DE to change ember skin to make it closer to original theme.

Lets not forget that DE themselves said that they hired IgnusDei to have some fresh perespetive, they wanted someone who would create designs different from theirs , and then they decided to change his design to match theirs...

 

Fundamentally what got IgnusDei hired was the care he put into his designs, and what got him fired was the very same care, 

 

just goes to show how little DE cares about us and their own designs.

Edited August 19, 2017 by octobotimus

[IggySnow]

8 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Where are people getting all these detailed facts about the drama from? Was it made public?

I was following the thread made by IgnisDei  as well as several others made by other people. Happened almost a year ago.

[DALOS]

Ok, I have to say something about this otherwise it'll drive me crazy.

I love the nova deluxe skin.

I can understand why people hate it, it's not the most streamlined thing in the world. But I love it. I love it's theme and cultural origin, I love the colors, and the animation is amazing.

 

Also, to this comment

8 hours ago, Culaio said:

it has nothing to do with nova theme, which is "antimatter", nova deluxe skin completly ignores the theme

I see Nova as being a Space frame, not just antimatter. What do wormholes or stars have to do with antimatter? As far as I can see, it's very appropriate for a cosmic warframe.

[Wolfdoggie]

Did the creator threaten to sue if they released it?

[DALOS]

4 minutes ago, Wolfdoggie said:

Did the creator threaten to sue if they released it?

A good question.

[IggySnow]

6 minutes ago, Wolfdoggie said:

Did the creator threaten to sue if they released it?

He couldn't if he wanted to. He was contracted by DE to make the concepts for them. So DE owns the concepts he made.

[Culaio]

15 minutes ago, Wolfdoggie said:

Did the creator threaten to sue if they released it?

I am pretty sure he didnt, I mean they are still using his mag design, also in his thread he said that DE had all rights to change his art(that doesnt change the fact it was #$&(% move) since he made art of them and they paid him for it so they hold the rights

 

22 minutes ago, DALOS said:

I see Nova as being a Space frame, not just antimatter. What do wormholes or stars have to do with antimatter? As far as I can see, it's very appropriate for a cosmic warframe.

nova codex: Nova uses electromagnetic energy to contain and control highly volatile antimatter that fuels her abilities.

abilities:

Null Star
Creates anti-matter particles that orbit Nova and seek nearby targets.

Antimatter Drop
Launches a contained particle of antimatter that will detonate upon collision.

wormhole description doesnt mention anti-matter so I dont know how it fits

Molecular Prime
Primes all enemies in a radius with anti-matter.

(info from warframe wiki)

Edited August 19, 2017 by Culaio

[Guest]

1 hour ago, HerpDerpy said:

He couldn't if he wanted to. He was contracted by DE to make the concepts for them. So DE owns the concepts he made.

is that mean, DE can actually still use creater who made Ember deluxe skin? from picture showed before? or DE gotta do from scratch or "scrapped"? 

[IggySnow]

Just now, Devonlucky said:

is that mean, DE can actually still use creater who made Ember deluxe skin? from picture showed before? or DE gotta do from scratch or "scrapped"? 

yes DE could have used the ember dulux skin that IgnisDei made with no legal problems.

[Guest]

Just now, HerpDerpy said:

yes DE could have used the ember dulux skin that IgnisDei made with no legal problems.

ohhh okay, cause im wondering for sec, i really like that skin along with others skin he made, i love his art i support it, but i don't know if DE gonna use it or make Ember deluxe skin look completely different, like i don't know who made nekros deulxe skin so i wonder that person can make ember something unique or ? *shrug*

[KokoroWish]

You can make the Nova Deluxe skin work even with a bit of minor effort (except for maybe the helmet. I don't like that thing).

 

[Arniox]

On 8/19/2017 at 7:00 AM, octobotimus said:

on dev stream 97 they announced that they scrapped the previously shown ember deluxe skin. This was a huge blow to me, it was starting to look as one of the best deluxe skins, and now they simply scrap it? after remembering the nova deluxe skin, DE will have a hard time making a better ember skin than that one.

 

what are your thoughts? 

the reason was mostly because the creator was fired from DE due to disagreements. It was a nice skin, but there was so much arguments over it that DE probs just decided nah, we'll make a new one. All in all, meh. Just hope that the new one is not weird or wonky like nova's.

[(PSN)Yes-Man-Kablaam]

So far i like all de in house skins. I liked the artists as well but a big issue i found is that generally the designs were too much. By that i mean i found them all hard to customize without them looking worse afterwards which was annoying and generally the artist didn't account for how things would look on a 3d model (Banshee in particular). So ultimately i'm more then opem to more in house skins.

[MirageKnight]

On ‎8‎/‎19‎/‎2017 at 8:48 AM, Culaio said:

Fundamentally what got IgnusDei hired was the care he put into his designs, and what got him fired was the very same care, 

 

What got Ignus ousted was a clash of visions and attitudes - his and Mynki's.

Ignus was asked to provide concept art for deluxe skins for existing 'Frames as a way of helping with DE's creative workload. He did exactly that, even going so far as to make changes to his concept art numerous times - because that's what a freelance artist does in the end: they bring a client's vision to life. When it came to the concept art for Ember's deluxe skin, Mynki obviously wanted something slightly different from what Ignus had in mind. That's fair, it's DE's IP and all, but I get the impression that Ignus thought Mynki's idea's didn't work that well and wouldn't be received well either. Mynki then takes the position "You do it my way or else", Ignus then feels disrespected and challenged and pushes back a bit too hard...and we have the situation we have now.

Yes I think Ignus couldn't have been a bit more calm and professional about this...and at the same time I believe that Mynki is the one that's largely at fault for this mess.

 

With regard to tossing out the art that been drawn up...I can understand that DE wants to put that unfortunate episode behind them and forget about it - and not ruffle any feathers.

At the same time, this strikes me as being a bit like throwing the baby out with the bathwater. What a tremendous waste of time and effort :(

 

[Culaio]

9 hours ago, MirageKnight said:

What got Ignus ousted was a clash of visions and attitudes - his and Mynki's.

Ignus was asked to provide concept art for deluxe skins for existing 'Frames as a way of helping with DE's creative workload. He did exactly that, even going so far as to make changes to his concept art numerous times - because that's what a freelance artist does in the end: they bring a client's vision to life. When it came to the concept art for Ember's deluxe skin, Mynki obviously wanted something slightly different from what Ignus had in mind. That's fair, it's DE's IP and all, but I get the impression that Ignus thought Mynki's idea's didn't work that well and wouldn't be received well either. Mynki then takes the position "You do it my way or else", Ignus then feels disrespected and challenged and pushes back a bit too hard...and we have the situation we have now.

Yes I think Ignus couldn't have been a bit more calm and professional about this...and at the same time I believe that Mynki is the one that's largely at fault for this mess.

 

With regard to tossing out the art that been drawn up...I can understand that DE wants to put that unfortunate episode behind them and forget about it - and not ruffle any feathers.

At the same time, this strikes me as being a bit like throwing the baby out with the bathwater. What a tremendous waste of time and effort :(

 

Ignus said he was fine with all changes but one, the "knife" on the head, both he and most of community agreed that it looked really REALLY bad, it looked tacked on to the design, it completly didnt fit the design.

I personally think that it would be fine if deluxe skin didnt had head crest like other ember "helmets", since nova deluxe skin made by DE doesnt use any theme's of nova frame both in appearance and abilties, nova is  anti-matter themed frame while its deluxe skin theme seems to be hindu gods.

But like I mentioned before if DE really wanted to give this skin a head crest looking thing they should have asked artist to make one that fits the frame instead of adding one themselves that doesnt fit, its also possible that they DID ask him to make one but he refused and that was one of reasons why he got fired, sadly we dont know the truth about this.

I do agree with that you said both Ignus should have been more calm about this, but it being mostly Mynki fault, I mean it was said by DE they hired Ignus so he could create design's different from theirs, they wanted fresh perespective and yet Mynki decided to change design to be more like theirs  which counters the whole purpose of hiring Ignus. and now that Mynki left the DE it feels like this whole disaster could have been avoided.

[MirageKnight]

58 minutes ago, Culaio said:

I do agree with that you said both Ignus should have been more calm about this, but it being mostly Mynki fault, I mean it was said by DE they hired Ignus so he could create design's different from theirs, they wanted fresh perespective and yet Mynki decided to change design to be more like theirs  which counters the whole purpose of hiring Ignus. and now that Mynki left the DE it feels like this whole disaster could have been avoided.

See - this is exactly my point. I completely understand why DE approached Ignus - Mynki probably had a massive workload and they wanted to ease that strain a bit and get fresh input. But that didn't sit well with Mynki. I believe Mynki took this very personally and saw Ignus - irrationally - as a threat and resented having someone else's art being used ingame. This is someone that understandably got very used to being in creative control of art assets and being the "go to" guy for visual ideas for 'Frames, only to see his company - and friends as well - look to a talented outsider for inspiration and suggestions was probably a bit infuriating and ego-bruising. As I said before, artists / creative designers tend to have big egos that don't take criticism and perceived competition well.

I highly suspect that Mynki deliberately asked Ignus for certain controversial changes to Ember's deluxe skin knowing full well that he probably wouldn't like them. I think at this point relations between Ignus and Mynki had become extremely brittle and tense - and Ignus probably had had enough of having his patience tested. Then boom. Fiasco. Bridges got burned. And we get left with drama and a binned deluxe skin.

My apologies if this comes across as being a bit controversial as it's not my intent to be so, but I think Mynki leaving DE was probably a good thing for all concerned. With all due respect, he was a talented artist and modeler with an attention to detail and obviously a valuable asset, but his designs and concepts were arguably a bit hit and miss and in interviews and streams, he always struck me as being a bit awkward to deal with.

That all said, this is just my perspective. I don't mean to ruffle any feathers or insult anyone here and I don't claim to be completely right.

Anyway, it'll be interesting to see what they come up with for deluxe skins in the future. A shame none of them will be Ignus' work though. For the most part, he offered some great designs.

[Culaio]

5 hours ago, MirageKnight said:

See - this is exactly my point. I completely understand why DE approached Ignus - Mynki probably had a massive workload and they wanted to ease that strain a bit and get fresh input. But that didn't sit well with Mynki. I believe Mynki took this very personally and saw Ignus - irrationally - as a threat and resented having someone else's art being used ingame. This is someone that understandably got very used to being in creative control of art assets and being the "go to" guy for visual ideas for 'Frames, only to see his company - and friends as well - look to a talented outsider for inspiration and suggestions was probably a bit infuriating and ego-bruising. As I said before, artists / creative designers tend to have big egos that don't take criticism and perceived competition well.

I highly suspect that Mynki deliberately asked Ignus for certain controversial changes to Ember's deluxe skin knowing full well that he probably wouldn't like them. I think at this point relations between Ignus and Mynki had become extremely brittle and tense - and Ignus probably had had enough of having his patience tested. Then boom. Fiasco. Bridges got burned. And we get left with drama and a binned deluxe skin.

My apologies if this comes across as being a bit controversial as it's not my intent to be so, but I think Mynki leaving DE was probably a good thing for all concerned. With all due respect, he was a talented artist and modeler with an attention to detail and obviously a valuable asset, but his designs and concepts were arguably a bit hit and miss and in interviews and streams, he always struck me as being a bit awkward to deal with.

That all said, this is just my perspective. I don't mean to ruffle any feathers or insult anyone here and I don't claim to be completely right.

Anyway, it'll be interesting to see what they come up with for deluxe skins in the future. A shame none of them will be Ignus' work though. For the most part, he offered some great designs.

Sadly I think you are right, what you say makes sense to me, I know some artists who act like that.

In the end  both Ignus and community suffered because of Mynki choice.

[peterc3]

6 hours ago, MirageKnight said:

See - this is exactly my point. I completely understand why DE approached Ignus - Mynki probably had a massive workload and they wanted to ease that strain a bit and get fresh input. But that didn't sit well with Mynki. I believe Mynki took this very personally and saw Ignus - irrationally - as a threat and resented having someone else's art being used ingame. This is someone that understandably got very used to being in creative control of art assets and being the "go to" guy for visual ideas for 'Frames, only to see his company - and friends as well - look to a talented outsider for inspiration and suggestions was probably a bit infuriating and ego-bruising. As I said before, artists / creative designers tend to have big egos that don't take criticism and perceived competition well.

I highly suspect that Mynki deliberately asked Ignus for certain controversial changes to Ember's deluxe skin knowing full well that he probably wouldn't like them. I think at this point relations between Ignus and Mynki had become extremely brittle and tense - and Ignus probably had had enough of having his patience tested. Then boom. Fiasco. Bridges got burned. And we get left with drama and a binned deluxe skin.

My apologies if this comes across as being a bit controversial as it's not my intent to be so, but I think Mynki leaving DE was probably a good thing for all concerned. With all due respect, he was a talented artist and modeler with an attention to detail and obviously a valuable asset, but his designs and concepts were arguably a bit hit and miss and in interviews and streams, he always struck me as being a bit awkward to deal with.

That all said, this is just my perspective. I don't mean to ruffle any feathers or insult anyone here and I don't claim to be completely right.

Anyway, it'll be interesting to see what they come up with for deluxe skins in the future. A shame none of them will be Ignus' work though. For the most part, he offered some great designs.

This isn't controversial, it's fan fiction. About people working at a game developer. Where is your basis for any of this?

[Chipputer]

On 8/19/2017 at 7:48 AM, Hypernaut1 said:

Where are people getting all these detailed facts about the drama from? Was it made public?

From only one half of the two parties involved and then speculation from a bunch of other people who weren't directly involved.

And of course it all ends with a heavily negative, "DE did a dumb," slant.

[MirageKnight]

4 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

This isn't controversial, it's fan fiction. About people working at a game developer. Where is your basis for any of this?

I've been a friend of Ignus' for at least 10 years, so I think it's very safe to say that I know far more than anyone else here as to what transpired - in fact far more than I'm willing to talk about here, so I'm leaving it at that. What I said is based on what Ignus had told me personally and what I've been able to observe about him and Mynki - and I believe the points I made are objective and as accurate as the information I have allows.

If that isn't good enough for you, I'm sorry but too bad.