DE's own words: "...we don't want Warframe to be infinite power spam: the game..."

[BrazilianJoe]

Energy recharge: 

Whenever a warframe gains energy by an external source in a single burst, it gets a reduced efficiency at energy absorption proportional to (erergy burst / (max energy * 2)). energy gain over time such as energy siphon, Focus or the Rift don't count to reduce energy absorption, but are affected by it. 

Example: a Warframe with 100 max energy, getting an energy burst of 100 energy, will get a 100/(100*2) = 0.5 penalty, which is 50%. In other words, subsequents energy bursts will affect him at 50% efficiency. Subsequent bursts will stack after their efficiency is reduced. a second 100 energy burst would be reduced by the penalty first, becoming 50/200 = 0.25, or another 25% penalty to stack on the 50%, totaling 75% energy efficiency penalty. It is capped at 90% energy efficiency penalty. 

Energy efficiency penalty wanes off at 1% per second. 

Efficiency rework: 

Efficiency should ad to base efficiency rather than measure final energy cost. it should take 200% efficiency (10% base + 100% from mods) for energy cost to reach 50% reduction. It would take 200% efficiency in mods + 100% base to reach 75% energy cost reduction. It could mean that current mods would have their base values doubled, to fall into roughly similar power envelopes as before. And would open the way for a Primed Streamline.

 

[Chipputer]

2 hours ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Remove all power canceling from enemies, remove grappling hooks and health ... draining auras.

In a topic about energy regen mechanics you just can't help yourself, can you? You simply have to bring up other game mechanics.

[Duduminador]

Doesn't help that the math behind certain abilities hides some dark magic.

Toggleable abilities being the main villain here, abilities like World on Fire or Equinox's main benefit monstrously in several ways, bonus like growing power and energy conversion stick all the way from the momment they are cast untill they get turned off (assuming you don't get another energy orb before that). both mods together add to a free 75% Strength boost without drawbacks. (Equinox for instance, can use these buffs to increase its own buff, cast on itself before using growing and energy conversion again while having its own "buffed buff" active before using main).
On top of that, while everybody else is stuck with 175% efficiency cap, toggleable abilities are not. basically, if you take you efficiency to 175%, you theoreticaly reach the max efficiency cap, but if you stack a full stream line and fleeting expertise and look at the energy consumption again, you'll notice that the energy cost decreases. in fact... with these two mods maxed you can drop your duration all the way down to 40% (not 140, I literaly mean 40% duration) and still get the maximum efficiency/time from toggleable abilities.

That's still not all of it...
Because toggleable abilities gain from duration, you can take the other route, and do what no frame without toggleables can, stick blind rage, counter the efficiency drop with further duration to drop significantly the energy cost, even still max efficiency/time, given enough duration.

Notice that most of these abilities lock the energy gain from Zenurik's overflow. So while I do not support the passive, removing it will increase the gap between the frames that are already "overpowered" and everybody else.

Edited September 27, 2017 by Duduminador

[(XBOX)Tucker D Dawg]

Whether it is their goal or not, I don't want it to go to the extreme the other way: ala Destiny - where you have abilities but they are rarely charged for use.

I like that some abilities can be cast all the time (or close to it) - The number of enemies, scale rate, and farming requirements almost demand it.  Further more, if you reduce it to 1 or to ability casts per mission, why bother with all the different frames since essentially it will just be a shooting/slashing game.  There will be no variety to the way you can tackle different missions - it will just be a race for the meta weapons, with everyone using the SAME weapons, and all missions done the same way.

I like being able to choose to brute force speed kill a defense, or chaos it, or slow it down, or stealth it.  remove the ability to use abilities often, and it will reduce variety, creativity, and become another boring shoot-n-loot

 

[Soketsu]

Omg so much waisted time...

Still no return of solar rail battle, proper engame content, some warframes in the trash...

Is that really important to remove zenurik energy ? if it s too useless we will just go to another usefull school and so on... for energy, there is so much ways to have it even without zenurik...

Edited September 27, 2017 by Soketsu

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

1 hour ago, Chipputer said:

In a topic about energy regen mechanics you just can't help yourself, can you? You simply have to bring up other game mechanics.

it's not supposed to be a topic about energy regen exclusively but rather DE's self expressed ambition of not making warframe "infinite power spam" and to what extent the game lives up to that atm.

in that regard i feel energy regen is actually one of the lesser offenders if at all, as in healthy doses it doesn't neccessarily enables a player to constantly spam every skill at his / her disposal. personally i'd rather have such a built in energy regen instead of orbs, pizzas and EV with efficiency mods affecting the regen rate. things like pizzas, EV, thurible combined with a very generous cap of 75% are the real reasons the game's META does indeed mostly revolve about being able to spam ults all day long.

this on the other hand begs the question how actually meeting DE's claim would affect the game's balance to our disadvantage. in that light CoMercs suggestions aren't really that off topic at all imo.

[DreamsmithJane]

Well, Energy Overflow doesn't provide infinite energy, and it's getting removed/replaced anyway. Arcane Energize still requires you to pick up orbs. It just makes them about 160% better. And actually getting 10 of the same rare arcane from JV is a long shot anyway (an issue in its own right). Fleeting Expertise tanks your duration, which puts a bit of a damper on the whole "infinite" thing. Energy restores are expensive enough that it's not practical to spam them in every mission. Octavia's passive is barely better than a single Energy Siphon. Harrow requires a modicum of skilled play using weapons in order to provide energy.

That leaves Trinity, whose MO is the very definition of infinite power spam. And even she needs to use guns, because it's impractical to pick off enemies one by one with her 1-2 combo. Which means that she, in a group where she can empower other frames, is the outstanding problem with energy economy. And in the midst of all of this, we have a plethora of enemies who force us to use something other than warframe powers to defeat them, whether by nullifying powers, just being immune or nearly immune to their damage, or draining our energy. So...yeah, I think you do need to explain where they are "completely" off the mark. I don't see anyone saying the energy economy right now is perfectly ideal, and everyone's got their own smelly opinion about what is a solution and what is a "bandaid", but it's nowhere near "infinite power spam" status.

7 hours ago, SupremeDutchGamer said:

this. simply because theres 26 million players and only so many devs (im guessing under the 100). even if that was the 100 smartest people on earth. 26 million combined would still outsmart them. in other words players can think up solutions to the nerfs faster than DE can think up nerfs for that solution.

That is the opposite of the truth. You may have heard the saying "too many cooks in the kitchen spoil the soup". The truth is that 26 million people together are dumber than one alone. The masses can "think up" all sorts of things that they believe to be solutions, but most of them don't have the foresight to know whether these ideas would actually work. And when you put them all together, it's very easy for large numbers of people to reinforce each other's bad ideas, because there is no failsafe on imagination. It's one thing to say you have a solution, another to actually have one, and another still to implement one successfully.

Millions of people have more ideas than a hundred people, it's true, but there is nothing at all to guarantee that those ideas will be good ones. The fact is that everyone has ideas. The problem game developers face is never that they don't have enough ideas.

[Volinus7]

Business 

1.Powercreep and skinner box combination is easier to make profit than a refined and balanced game, devs don't have to recalibrate the game every time that there's accretion and it's less cerebral intensive for players. 

2.Dumb game attracts people who don't suspect game's balance, and it's easier to train/find whales among them, whale hunting is the main scope of monetized power progression. There's no international standard on what's overpriced or overgrinded after all. 

After 4 years WF doesn't have balance and endgame, it's like keeping the game on indefinite stagnant cliffhanger while making people think that the game is still aspirant. It may be aspirant, not as a "game" but as a "skinner box" instead. 

[ShogunGunshow]

Maybe if they didn't consistently (re)design warframes with synergy between abilities that requires an amount of spam in order to perform them to perform at parity...

Or adjusted enemy scaling so that powers that don't deal true damage don't feel like you're pelting enemies with snowballs in sorties...

Maybe then ...

...

But the ability to spec into power spam is attractive regardless. Despite Zenurik's presence in the game for nearly two years, people aren't exactly getting tired or bored of their abilities, even though we've been spamming then to our little hearts content. Heck, even when Naramon is an objectively better choice for some of the frames I am running, I will often choose Zenurik.

Why? Because it's fun. People like casting abilities because they're fun! Before The Second Dream, and perhaps even today, one of the most urgent early goals you could have was to pick up a copy of Energy Siphon, just so you could use abilities more.

So yeah. DE can say what it wants, but unless they're going to change their design philosophy and change some pretty fundamental ways about how the game scales, sod it. Keep the spam. It's not like it's exactly been hurting Warframe's numbers.

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

2 hours ago, DreamsmithJane said:

I don't see anyone saying the energy economy right now is perfectly ideal, and everyone's got their own smelly opinion about what is a solution and what is a "bandaid", but it's nowhere near "infinite power spam" status.

well all i can say is i beg to differ.

while the examples you mentioned (and well that's quite a few don't you think) might for themselves be more or less limited / balanced in combination they indeed make for a state pretty damn near infinite power spam status. i agree EV is easily the worst offender tho, making her pretty much mandatory in most META setups.

i cannot discuss arcane energize as i don't own it and therefore never tested it.

fleeting expertise is quite easily compensated, also duration isn't even vital for alot builds, sometimes even quite the contrary (*cough*EV*cough).

energy restores expensive? ok, i know i'm quite the whale by now but i honestly can't remember any point in progress when i couldn't build a bunch because of a lack of resources, literally never. back when i started there weren't even big energy restores as there were no syndicates. i feel a limit per mission of, say, 10 would be justified.

i love harrow and his aim / pay off mechanics, but that's not an argument against the numbers being a bit on the big side.

nullifying enemies are certain factions only, a minority and yeah, arguably bandaid solutions. even together with energy drain aoes (which i feel are rather lame / fake difficulty since they're not even telegraphed/dodgeable) and some (mini-)bosses being immune "plethora" really is pushing it imo.

and while it's merely anecdotal i can only add that from my experience skill spam is absolutely omnipresent in warframe, the more "lategame" the worse it gets. tbh i thought this was commonly acknowledged as status quo, just that some actually advocate it.

i also wanna add that personally i wouldn't even mind "spammability" of lesser skills when appropriately modded, the problem is with an EV on your team it doesn't even matter if a skill costs 25 or 100 energy, making the former pretty much redudant, too ("hm... bastille now or save for it and lay some trip lasers instead?" - no vauban player, ever) . i'd suggest whilst fixing the most grave issues with the energy economy DE should reconsider skill costs, too, as imo in alot of cases they rather poorly reflect their relative effectiveness. forget about the arbitrary fixed 25 / 50 / 75/ 100 steps.

yes i do see and applaud them for reworking skills and attending to certain problems, yet can't help but feel the big, underlying ones remain untouched (which also include scaling, of course).

 

Edited September 28, 2017 by Kotsender_Quasimir

[-YoRHa-]

9 hours ago, BrazilianJoe said:

I think that changing the game from not having cooldowns to suddenly having cooldowns would be too jarring, so the solution should be a different thing. 

What I think could be viable to reduce ability spam would be to have penalties applied to the ability on consecutive casts for instants, and reduced effectiveness for abilities which switch on/off.

There would be a soft cooldown introduced, but the soft cooldown would not prevent the ability to be recast. It would merely accumulate a penalty to the next cast of that ability. It would wear off simply by not using the ability. The exact penalty would be dependant on the exact nature of the ability. 

The penalty % would wear off at 1% per second until it completely wanes.

^This would retain the current power envelope for instant hits, but prevent spamming or keeping powers on all the time.

 

Examples: 

World on Fire - would slow down tick rate over time, to the point that it would take too long between hits to be worth keeping it on all the time. After WoF is turned off, it cools down removing 1 second of "tick lag" per second. 

Snow Globe - Being able to quickly set up a barrier is critical, and reducing its strength would be too detrimental. It is also limited to 4 snow globes. As such, the best course of action would be to reduce the ability's efficiency by a large % margin each time it is cast. 

Some abilities largely have this kind of setup already, with the exception that they can be recast with no penalty after turned off. Those abilities only require small tweaks. Examples:

Mesa's Peacemaker - already increases energy cost and reduces radius over time. Could just take time for the radius to regenerate even after the power is turned off. 

Banshee's Earthquake - also has scaling costs over time. Could retain the high energy cost after ability is turned off, and cool down the increased cost over time. 

 

I think this would work well. Black Desert has a similar mechanic on certain skills.

[(XBOX)Oussii]

12 hours ago, Hemmo67 said:

energy pads, okay there are expensive to spam like no tomorrow so i can kinda give pass on them

Not Really that expensive, although it cost 2500 poly to craft the 10 large team one, still i managed to craft around 3000 pads.

It takes 1 hour max daily to end up with millions of poly (having the booster and hydroid)

 

[Fallen_Echo]

14 hours ago, Klavinmour said:

You do realise as they say that, they also note that they'll be giving us a new option for passive energy regen that's not tied to Focus.

 

The goal is to stop things like WoF Ember, Old Saryn, etc.
Stuff that doesn't require skill or interaction, but just set and forget or one button press.

Infinite energy isn't the problem at the end of the day, the problem is lazy play styles.

Wof ember and chanelling frames were never used zenurik.

The most tipycal wof build has high energy, good efficiency and high range. Once they get to full energy, which is faster than being able to cast zenurik if the player is lucky they activate wof and stay that way.

You know what frames will get hit negatively with this change?

Multicasters.

Oberon, Octavia, Saryn, Mag, Vauban, Banshee, frames what need to recast their skills often to be functioning. Those who go for channelling skills including banshee will not see any problem, but those who use their entire kits will have serious problems fast.

[Fallen_Echo]

11 hours ago, BlackCoMerc said:

I recommend:

Change Streamline to 50% efficiency. Cap efficiency there.

Change Energy Siphon to grant 1- 2 energy per weapon kill.

Make orbs restore 5-10 energy per second

Remove pizzas.

Remove all power canceling from enemies, remove grappling hooks and health and energy draining auras.

These COMBINED fixes would make a HUGE difference.

1.  Might be a good idea but then the negative on it should be removed as it is now weaker then streamline
2. NO. Kill to gain mechanics are terrible in this game if you want to level a fodder weapon you are denying yourself from energy gain and on high levels energy is a MUST to survive.
3. Might wanna write what is the cap there.
4. Pizzas are supposed to be an emergency item, the fact that they become the way to sustain ourselves even on lv50 areas shows how big problems we have with frames and energy
5. This in itself would be a needed change without any of the things you wrote.

[BlackCoMerc]

2 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

1.  Might be a good idea but then the negative on it should be removed as it is now weaker then streamline
2. NO. Kill to gain mechanics are terrible in this game if you want to level a fodder weapon you are denying yourself from energy gain and on high levels energy is a MUST to survive.
3. Might wanna write what is the cap there.
4. Pizzas are supposed to be an emergency item, the fact that they become the way to sustain ourselves even on lv50 areas shows how big problems we have with frames and energy
5. This in itself would be a needed change without any of the things you wrote.

Good point about energy for kills. Really good point.

Maybe frames should get passive energy Regen if, day, 1 energy/sec (without Siphon). Archwing does Regen. Why not?

[rudman88]

Regardless of what game :

as long as :

1. there is pot

2. there is no cool down ( cd )

3. have skills

 

= A game where you can spam.

 

Is the player who decide to spam or not to spam. No matter who, as long is more efficient to cast spell than hot normally of course people will cast spell.

[VoxGray]

Honestly, they just need to give up the ghost and give everyone passive energy regen from the get-go. Not even small amounts, make it big. 10 energy/sec. Look at stamina in Dark Souls, our energy should recharge like that. Maybe not quite as fast, but definitely around Zenurik levels or faster. With every rework they do, DE seems to fixate on making Frames more energy-hungry, almost requiring a constant influx of energy to function. This high rate of regen would facilitate that, as well as automatically devalue EV Trin (making her focus more on her healing role), and leave Harrow's energy regen better for it (allowing him to keep teammates topped-off over time).

On the flip side, with this high regen rate, we should have reduced options for energy efficiency. Cap our efficiency at 125%, and lower the value on Fleeting Expertise. Make using a power feel substantial, and put some weight behind it. This would make channeled Ults like Peacemaker and Hysteria feel like the last-ditch room clears they were intended to, and move WoF toward being the burst of overwhelming power it emulates.

Many skills would necessarily require buffs or tweaks to fit this new meta, but with the fast-paced, action-intensive direction Warframe is taking, this would help eliminate the issue of "lazy playstyles," while simultaneously improving the experiences players have with multicast Frames and those requiring skill synergy. It would also move Warframe somewhat back to its roots, where gunplay was far more common, improve the early game experience where players currently don't get to use their powers often, if at all, and would highlight the need to rebalance certain enemy types who are currently necessary due solely to the power-spam meta (looking at you, Parasitic Eximus...)

DE would naturally have to be quite cautious with the exact balancing of numbers here, and I'm certain there are issues I couldn't foresee on my own, but overall, I feel changes along these lines would vastly improve the state of the game, and allow for many more possible Frame types and powers further down the line.

[StabbyTentacles]

On 9/28/2017 at 1:33 AM, Klavinmour said:

You do realise as they say that, they also note that they'll be giving us a new option for passive energy regen that's not tied to Focus.

 

The goal is to stop things like WoF Ember, Old Saryn, etc.
Stuff that doesn't require skill or interaction, but just set and forget or one button press.

Infinite energy isn't the problem at the end of the day, the problem is lazy play styles.

lazy play styles?

Or a game that is literally built around lazy play styles. 

affinity, focus = kills

max kills = affinity, focus

So what's the best way to max kills and gain affinity, focus? By slowly killing 1 enemy at a time? Nope, stealth nerf said no to that. To slowishly kill a few enemies at a time? 

Or to kill many enemies, as quickly as possible, as often as possible?

Don't hate players playing the game as it stands. 

Your hate is misdirected.

 

[(PSN)pyronarf]

This isn't a new concept this has been the the focus sence before even the alpha while i can't "qoute" another time it has been said this is warframe we are the tenno trained in the old way of blade and gun... Your telling me to throw away my roots and become a wizard or something instead i can't accept that and i have a feeling the development team has theese feelings as well.

[DreamsmithJane]

21 hours ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

fleeting expertise is quite easily compensated, also duration isn't even vital for alot builds, sometimes even quite the contrary (*cough*EV*cough).

Not really. Covering for any corrupted mod's negative stat comes at the cost of mod space, and very often involves other corrupted mods with their own associated costs. Also, min duration EV is dumb. Just kill the targets and don't ruin the entire rest of your kit.

As for energy restores, I often see people use more of them in a mission than the mission is worth in loot. This makes about as much sense as Rathuum and Animo/Ambulas.

21 hours ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

nullifying enemies are certain factions only, a minority and yeah, arguably bandaid solutions. even together with energy drain aoes (which i feel are rather lame / fake difficulty since they're not even telegraphed/dodgeable) and some (mini-)bosses being immune "plethora" really is pushing it imo.

Corpus and Corrupted have Nullifiers. Corpus have Comba/Scrambus. Infested have Ancient Disruptors. Infested and Corrupted have Ancient Healers. Grineer have Nox and Manic. Grineer/Infested/Corrupted have Energy Leech/Parasitic Eximus. All factions have Arctic Eximus. So yeah, enemies that resist (at a minimum) damage and CC from powers, or drain energy, or both, are in every faction.

And no, the "bandaid" thing is not arguable. They are deliberate design elements that counterbalance other deliberate design elements. Calling them "bandaids" is just some people arbitrarily deciding that some elements are legitimate and others aren't. Usually, it's because they think they have a better idea, but that idea requires completely changing the elements they view as problematic rather than counterbalancing them. There is nothing inherently more legitimate about that approach. It's just simpler to use a design that doesn't have problems than it is to solve those problems, and some people like simple. Personally, I find oversimplification boring at best.

7 hours ago, EmissaryOfInfinity said:

Honestly, they just need to give up the ghost

You...want them to die? You understand that's what that phrase means, right?

7 hours ago, EmissaryOfInfinity said:

give everyone passive energy regen from the get-go. Not even small amounts, make it big. 10 energy/sec.

The reason they don't do this is the same reason they don't have cooldown-gated powers (with very few exceptions, and they're currently completely reworking one of them). They don't want a situation where people stop playing and wait for cooldowns or energy regeneration, because that would break the flow. Besides, balancing around having times when powers aren't available doesn't work when players can just wait until they're available again before they continue. Small amounts of regeneration avoid this by making it impractical to wait for it, but still providing a reliable boost over the course of a mission. Energy Siphon is an example of this. Energy Overflow is over the top, and it can be expected that whatever replaces it will be toned down slightly, or function in such a way as to discourage stalling.

[Pizzarugi]

"We don't want Warframe to be Infinite Power Spam: The Game"

That's going to be hard to work around when you already made warframes that are designed to spam powers, such as Nidus. Any attempt to make the energy economy more starved is going to severely hurt frames that depend very strongly on it.

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

13 hours ago, DreamsmithJane said:

Not really. Covering for any corrupted mod's negative stat comes at the cost of mod space, and very often involves other corrupted mods with their own associated costs. Also, min duration EV is dumb. Just kill the targets and don't ruin the entire rest of your kit.

well, given its popularity in meta builds i'd still claim the negative is mostly worth it, primed continuity counters it quite effectively without any further negatives etc. while you might think it's dumb alot of people settle for min maxing to most effectively support their team, at least from my experience.

13 hours ago, DreamsmithJane said:

As for energy restores, I often see people use more of them in a mission than the mission is worth in loot. This makes about as much sense as Rathuum and Animo/Ambulas.

well loot doesn't equal loot. and all resources for energy pads are very common.

13 hours ago, DreamsmithJane said:

Corpus and Corrupted have Nullifiers. Corpus have Comba/Scrambus. Infested have Ancient Disruptors. Infested and Corrupted have Ancient Healers. Grineer have Nox and Manic. Grineer/Infested/Corrupted have Energy Leech/Parasitic Eximus. All factions have Arctic Eximus. So yeah, enemies that resist (at a minimum) damage and CC from powers, or drain energy, or both, are in every faction.

sorry if i've been unclear, the "faction exclusive" comment was meant to be only about straight up nullifying units. corpus have them and grineer got their drones but only in a single mission type. you are right, there are units to counter abilities across the board but they're still the minority.

13 hours ago, DreamsmithJane said:

And no, the "bandaid" thing is not arguable. They are deliberate design elements that counterbalance other deliberate design elements. Calling them "bandaids" is just some people arbitrarily deciding that some elements are legitimate and others aren't. Usually, it's because they think they have a better idea, but that idea requires completely changing the elements they view as problematic rather than counterbalancing them. There is nothing inherently more legitimate about that approach. It's just simpler to use a design that doesn't have problems than it is to solve those problems, and some people like simple. Personally, I find oversimplification boring at best.

tbh i don't see the discrepancy here. yes, a bandaid solution by definiton tries to solve a problem without dealing with its causes. i don't see how the deliberateness makes its use by DE less arguable. if we look at the history of nullifiers it is quite clear they appeared as direct response to vivergate. another bandaid solution was giving line of sight to mag and excal, which they quickly canceled again after an enormous uproar among the player base. legitimate? well, if it works, sure, but when in doubt personally i'd rather stick to occam's razor, guess by your definition i'm a simpleton j/k ;). i think a pro simplification / root solving argument would be that by doing things the simple way you potentially fix alot more problems stemming from that root than to meet its sprouting problems individually (like in this case reworking alot of ults, greedy mag etc.)

13 hours ago, DreamsmithJane said:

The reason they don't do this is the same reason they don't have cooldown-gated powers (with very few exceptions, and they're currently completely reworking one of them). They don't want a situation where people stop playing and wait for cooldowns or energy regeneration, because that would break the flow.

as i said i'm pro energy regen and i feel it's time to debunk that popular flow-disrupting argument:

1. it's hardly any different to what we have now: throwing out a pizza and waiting for it to dispense it's energy.

2. more importantly: how many mission types are even really affected by that? only those that don't throw an endless stream of enemies at you anyway and since the game's early days when DE spoke out against cooldowns those have become a tiny minority. spy missions are slow anyway, hardly any flow to be disrupted. exterminate and capture aren't event considered "real" missions by most people, just something you rush through with wof on.

assassination, defection, defense, excavation, hijack, interception, salvage, mob def, rescue, the trials and of course survival: all of those at least have phases when they constantly throw enemies at you, nowhere to run or hide, no disruption of battle even possible.

anyway thank you sincerely for your contribution to the discussion, like i said i hardly ever met contra argumentators feeling the game's energy economy was actually curtailing ability use as it is, only people enjoying the spam / seeing it as balanced confronted by enemy cheese / scaling. you got an interesting take on things, i mean it!

Edited September 29, 2017 by Kotsender_Quasimir

[HyokaChan]

Wait hold up:

 

Quote

While we don't want Warframe to be infinite power spam: the game, we do want bonus energy regen systems choices to exist with investment and likely be decoupled from Focus at this point.

So they: 

1. Make caster frames
2. Make power synergy so you have incentive to spam powers (just different ones instead of the same button each time)
3. Cap efficiency
4. Don't give majority of caster frames/power synergy frames an appropriate amount of energy to compensate

You could say they're doing a very bad job at it. The only frames who I think have an appropriate amount of energy is Volt Prime/Saryn Prime... but it's only with max primed flow for 850/maxed flow for non-veterans for 600.

Edited September 29, 2017 by HyokaChan

[DreamsmithJane]

8 hours ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

alot of people settle for min maxing to most effectively support their team, at least from my experience.

Yeah, but the most effective way to use Trinity is to shoot your EV targets, and still maintain good duration for Blessing and Link. The only exception is LoR, where you want to avoid killing if you can.

8 hours ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

by doing things the simple way you potentially fix alot more problems stemming from that root than to meet its sprouting problems individually (like in this case reworking alot of ults, greedy mag etc.)

This is true, but it's also possible that going to the root of these issues can destroy something valuable to the game. In software, fixing a bug can introduce even more bugs, especially if one takes drastic measures to do so (like rewriting whole sections of code to avoid it). Often, a minor patch or "bandaid" that changes as little as possible is the correct or most effective solution. This is equally true in game design, though it's considerably more subjective. It's likely that changing the entire system would require reworking all of those ults anyway. The point is that people call things "bandaids" as if to delegitimize them, when the actual choice of how to solve these problems is quite a bit more complicated than they assume. Both approaches are valid, and which one is correct will always be situational. One phrase a lot of game developers hate is "why don't you just...?"

8 hours ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

1. it's hardly any different to what we have now: throwing out a pizza and waiting for it to dispense it's energy.

That sounds like an argument for changing how restores work. That is something I think should happen. Sitting around eating pizza is nice, but it's really dumb as a game mechanic, and you're definitely right that it violates their stance on mechanics that stall the action.

8 hours ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

anyway thank you sincerely for your contribution to the discussion, like i said i hardly ever met someone feeling the game's energy economy was curtailing ability use as it is, only people enjoying the spam. you got an interesting take on things, i mean it!

I appreciate that. I will say this: I think it's rare for the game to let you use warframe abilities as much as you want, without restriction. On the other hand, I think it's also rare, if you're engaged with the game, to be unable to use your abilities as much as you need to. For example, I main Banshee, with a Resonance build. I don't use Zenurik with her, nor Energy Siphon, nor Arcane Energize. I almost never run out of energy. I could benefit from being able to literally spam Sonar, like when my kavat triggers the energy refund buff. But in normal conditions, even amongst all the various hazards that threaten to remove my energy and enemies that resist my powers, I'm still able to keep Silence and Sonar running reliably, and even toss out a Sonic Boom when needed. And Mag? Well...she's kind of broken with Energy Overflow, honestly. Without it, she's still strong. She's just not able to brute-force her way through every situation by spending more energy.

So I guess we'll see how things turn out with the new focus system, new passives, new..."arcane-like enhancements"?, et cetera. This is certainly a discussion I'd like to revisit when all of that comes to light, as well, as I'm sure the more team-oriented Zenurik focus we've just learned of will shake things up (and probably also weaken EV Trinity's position in the metagame, opening the door for a rework that empowers her as something other than a walking energy restore).

[(PSN)wildcats1369my]

On 27/09/2017 at 11:36 PM, Xzorn said:

It's a goal that cannot be achieved for long as this game remains a horde shooter.

Hence PoE.

Enemies are less in number and more spread out. They don't seem to instantly respawn either so the power you use is not instantly replenish by the next mass of fodder. A lack of energy management might have become more noticeable in the past few years but it's been a thing every since Damage 2.0 by DE adding spawns and adding spawns and adding spawns in an attempt for difficulty. Seriously, go watch an old video and pay attention to the number of enemies a player fights at once.

It's also created the AoE, Shotgun, Big melee supremacy we see in the game.

A lot of problems will start to be solved when they get away from the horde shooter aspect.

My concern in this is the identity of the game, wf is a horde shooter and the power each frame posses ingame is the charm of it. Killing mobs en mass was fun. Im worried that with these changes wf loses the identity and become just another shooter game.