Even PC Gamer is salty. [PC Gamer Criticism of PoE for new players]

[nickelshark]

They didn't pull any punches that's for sure. They do make fair points though. Hopefully reviews like these can get DE to make some much needed changes to the PoE economy.

[AdunSaveMe]

31 minutes ago, xXx_mtv_xXx said:

"Oh no, I have to grind in a F2P game and this massive new update has bugs hurr durr"

Way to exaggerate.

31 minutes ago, xXx_mtv_xXx said:

Lmao that looks like an article that bungie paid them to write because they don't want people to play destiny 2 instead of warframe. 

Yeah, Bungie paid PC Gamer to write an article about a completely and entirely different game. And it's only about one update. Sure.

31 minutes ago, xXx_mtv_xXx said:

Don't trust everything you read in these commercial sources.

The author intentionally points out every possible flaw and inconsistency that he can find in this new update., while not keeping an open mind about it at all. He clearly has an agenda.

Except the author is saying things that players have been saying since the update came out. Very valid things. Like, the economy is self-contained, it doesn't have anything to offer new players, etc.

You have addressed none of the points that were brought up in this article. You're simply dismissing them without cause.

Edited October 18, 2017 by AdunSaveMe

[Antiphoton]

20 minutes ago, xXx_mtv_xXx said:

Complaining about grind in a F2P game while saying you've barely even played the game just makes you look like a #$&(%, that's exactly what the author is doing.

What did the author expect from PoE? What did you expect? A promised land where platinum rains from the skies?

He needs to go farm, like we farmed for dozens and hundreds of hours, or he can spend a little money to support the devs and get whatever he wants faster.l, like many of us also did.

PoE has plenty of issues, but criticising it like it's a full price game or even a DLC that you paid for is just stupid. 

He's complaining about the grind in the plains specifically, and even admits that it is a lot more rewarding in the starchart.

"It's a F2P game therefore it must have Korean MMO levels of grind" is not a valid argument. Warframe was famous for, among other things, being one of the few games that "got F2P right". This update negates that claim.

I farmed hundreds of hours before: in the void, in the star chart, in sorties, in alerts, in invasions, in fissures, in endurance runs, etc. I enjoyed every minute of it. But I cannot say the same about PoE, mostly because the reasons cited in the article. 

34 minutes ago, InDueTime-EN- said:

The incentive is the gear you get out of it. If that's not enough incentive then waframe may not be the right game for you.

Except the only new gear we can get in PoE (besides Gara) is operator stuff. If you think that a sci-fi shooter where you need to do mining and fishing for months is for you, maybe you will find out that playing something with more refined mechanics, like Sega Bass Fishing, will be a better investment of your time.

 

Edited October 18, 2017 by Antiphoton

[InDueTime-EN-]

Just now, Antiphoton said:

Except the only new gear we can get in PoE (besides Gara) is operator stuff. If you think that a sci-fi shooter where you need to do mining and fishing for months is for you, maybe you will find out that playing something with more refined mechanics, like Sega Bass Fishing, will be a better investment of your time.

 

And the Zaws. 

[Rhekemi]

31 minutes ago, xXx_mtv_xXx said:

What did you expect?

 

For one thing, I expected such a basic necessity as fast-travel (in a massive, open-world tileset) to not be locked behind a grindwall--especially when I'd already gone through an original grind to farm, build, and use my Archwing.

The article makes it clear the grindwall for Archwing makes little sense for new players, too. (Because they haven't even done the Archwing quest.)

There's no justification for locking Archwing behind another grind for veterans (we already own Archwings) or newbies (they haven't even played the original quest). 

Edited October 18, 2017 by Rhekemi

[xXx_mtv_xXx]

11 minutes ago, AdunSaveMe said:

Way to exaggerate.

Yeah, Bungie paid PC Gamer to write an article about a completely and entirely different game. And it's only about one update. Sure.

Except the author is saying things that players have been saying since the update came out. Very valid things. Like, the economy is self-contained, it doesn't have anything to offer new players, etc.

You have addressed none of the points that were brought up in this article. You're simply dismissing them without cause.

It's a simple arcticle that points out every possible flaw in this update and creates a really bad impression of a seemingly broken game. Yes, that's what casual gamers are gonna see in a piece like this.

There are different ways to criticise games and one of those ways is based on its market model. This is a F2P game that the author (and anyone else who thinks that way) is criticising this update as if it were a full price AAA game or dlc.

[Kyronz]

Bounty missions still being bugged, as well as the incredible rarity of gara parts is enough to put anyone off.

The grind is way too much for such little gains, and the operator fixes are locked behind another separate (HUGE) grind wall just shows how out of touch DE has become compared to when they introduced warframe in the first place.

[xXx_mtv_xXx]

2 minutes ago, Rhekemi said:

For one thing, I expected such a basic necessity as fast-travel (in a massive, open-world tileset) to not be locked behind a grindwall--especially when I'd already gone through an original grind to farm, build, and use my Archwing.

The article makes it clear the grindwall for Archwing makes little sense for new players, too. (Because they haven't even done the Archwing quest.)

The whole point of the plains is to offer something for everyone, new players and old, right from the start. But it's obviously not supposed to be easy and it won't bring you anything on a platter, just like the rest of the game doesn't.

New players can experience the plains on their level and ability, then get motivated to go farm the star chart and come back to the plains to do more and more. That's the whole point!

If the plains had everything and everything, and offered it right away to anyone, then the plains would virtually replace the star chart and barely anyone would be doing planets and stuff beyond earth.

[AdunSaveMe]

2 minutes ago, xXx_mtv_xXx said:

It's a simple arcticle that points out every possible flaw in this update and creates a really bad impression of a seemingly broken game. Yes, that's what casual gamers are gonna see in a piece like this.

There are different ways to criticise games and one of those ways is based on its market model. This is a F2P game that the author (and anyone else who thinks that way) is criticising this update as if it were a full price AAA game or dlc.

They're simply pointing out what's wrong with it and what can be improved, as are a large number of people.

The fact that it's f2p is irrelevant. A game does not get a free pass on design just because it's free.

[Phthisis]

Anyone catch the fact that the article assumed warframe was a finished game?

[AdunSaveMe]

Just now, xXx_mtv_xXx said:

The whole point of the plains is to offer something for everyone, new players and old, right from the start.

But it doesn't.

Just now, xXx_mtv_xXx said:

it's obviously not supposed to be easy and it won't bring you anything on a platter

Nobody said it had to be. "It's too grindy" does not mean "it should have no grind". There is such a thing as too much grind.

[Rhekemi]

2 minutes ago, xXx_mtv_xXx said:

The whole point of the plains is to offer something for everyone, new players and old, right from the start. But it's obviously not supposed to be easy and it won't bring you anything on a platter, just like the rest of the game doesn't.

New players can experience the plains on their level and ability, then get motivated to go farm the star chart and come back to the plains to do more and more. That's the whole point!

If the plains had everything and everything, and offered it right away to anyone, then the plains would virtually replace the star chart and barely anyone would be doing planets and stuff beyond earth.

You did not address my point. You neatly stepped around it and addressed the broader topic of new updates bringing people new things. 

I have no issue with that. I have no issue with letting players work for new content.

I have an issue with being forced to grind for gear I already own: Archwing.

I'm not asking for anything to be given to me on a platter. I already worked, hard, for my Archwing. It's in my inventory as earned gear.

Again, you're addressing points I didn't make.

[Antiphoton]

12 minutes ago, InDueTime-EN- said:

And the Zaws. 

I stand corrected.

I guess you saw the requirements to craft them. Even if you are just starting in Warframe from scratch, you can get many prime weapons faster and through more varied activities than the zaws.

Do you really think it is justifiable to go through this level of grind, specially when for some of us it isn't a pleasant grind, blindly and without question just because it will give us "the new next thing"?

Many posters aren't asking for the grind to be removed, they are giving ideas of how to make it more enjoyable. That doesn't mean that "this might not be the game for them", quite the opposite.

[Styliaan]

Agree with pretty much everything. Even after the hotfix to fix the bugs it only took a few minutes to have to repeat multiple missions due to the same bugs i and others reported.
POE is something pretty much disconnected from the rest of the game. 

 

The real funny thing about the article. After all this effort and time it took to create POE the only real compliments in the article are about the game before the POE patch.
"I'm having a blast playing through the main campaign. The last few years worth of updates to Warframe have made it vastly more enjoyable for new players"

[xXx_mtv_xXx]

5 minutes ago, AdunSaveMe said:

They're simply pointing out what's wrong with it and what can be improved, as are a large number of people.

The fact that it's f2p is irrelevant. A game does not get a free pass on design just because it's free.

See there's a thing in the media industry, it's called due impartiality. That's when you try to present each point of view and position (devs/players, etc) in a fair light, when you make it clear that you are keeping an open mind and giving all parties the benefit of the doubt.

This article is not that. It's more like a propaganda piece, it takes the worst things from the subject and condenses them into a fireball of bad publicity that is gonna push players away from this game.

[xXx_mtv_xXx]

4 minutes ago, Rhekemi said:

You did not address my point. You neatly stepped around it and addressed the broader topic of new updates bringing people new things. 

I have no issue with that. I have no issue with letting players work for new content.

I have an issue with being forced to grind for gear I already own: Archwing.

I'm not asking for anything to be given to me on a platter. I already worked, hard, for my Archwing. It's in my inventory as earned gear.

Again, you're addressing points I didn't make.

See the problem is that you assumed you already had everything you will possibly ever need in this game when it comes to archwing and will not have to grind for it again. That's not how things work in this game. 

[Antiphoton]

1 minute ago, xXx_mtv_xXx said:

that is gonna push players away from this game.

I fear PoE itself is going to push them away more than the article.

 

What do you think about the last paragraph, where the author praises the rest of the game and says that the starchart is better for newcomers than PoE?

[xXx_mtv_xXx]

2 minutes ago, Antiphoton said:

I fear PoE itself is going to push them away more than the article.

 

What do you think about the last paragraph, where the author praises the rest of the game and says that the starchart is better for newcomers than PoE?

Well he had to say something good lol otherwise he would make it too obvious that he's just here to bash the devs XD

I think the problem with PoE is that you all expected way too much from it. I went in with low expectations and was impressed even on the very first laggy buggy day, so it's all about your expectations really.

[WhiteCr0w]

It's really painful to admit, especially it coming from PCGamer, but the article wasn't very far off the mark. There's no denying the sheer amount of hard work, beautiful presentation, and the bravery required to take Warframe in such a direction. I absolutely respect that, and commend everyone at DE. I agree with the criticisms mentioned here, and the thread on the Warframe subreddit, but allow me to pose a few questions, and attempt to gain some insight.

1. If PoE had offered mats found from the starchart, why would anyone play it? There are easier missions to grind for them. People would complain about this.

2. Conversely, what if the blueprints, Zaws, and Amps in PoE required starchart mats? Vets would pull from their massive stockpile and get everything within days.

It's difficult to balance content for new and veteran players. Sadly, I think they ultimately ended up alienating each demographic. Though if it were skewed more toward fresh users, you'd have the veterans complaining. If it were designed mainly for vets, you'd have the new people complaining. Perhaps they should have taken more time developing it, and adequately provided content for each group, without stalling progression for the new, and with something to keep vets busy without an obscene grind.

[xXx_mtv_xXx]

6 minutes ago, WhiteCr0w said:

It's really painful to admit, especially it coming from PCGamer, but the article wasn't very far off the mark. There's no denying the sheer amount of hard work, beautiful presentation, and the bravery required to take Warframe in such a direction. I absolutely respect that, and commend everyone at DE. I agree with the criticisms mentioned here, and the thread on the Warframe subreddit, but allow me to pose a few questions, and attempt to gain some insight.

1. If PoE had offered mats found from the starchart, why would anyone play it? There are easier missions to grind for them. People would complain about this.

2. Conversely, what if the blueprints, Zaws, and Amps in PoE required starchart mats? Vets would pull from their massive stockpile and get everything within days.

It's difficult to balance content for new and veteran players. Sadly, I think they ultimately ended up alienating each demographic. Though if it were skewed more toward fresh users, you'd have the veterans complaining. If it were designed mainly for vets, you'd have the new people complaining. Perhaps they should have taken more time developing it, and adequately provided content for each group, without stalling progression for the new, and with something to keep vets busy without an obscene grind.

^ this is exactly the kind of logic that the article (and some players around here) lacks, sadly.

[Omnimorph]

Clickbait title is clickbait.  The article is actually reasonably well-balanced.

Although, just as a point of interest, the article contradicts itself.  This:-

"Since adventuring out onto the Plains, I've repeatedly run into these artificial barriers where I'm excluded from some kind of activity only to find out I need to head back to the main game and progress further."

contradicts his introductory thesis, which is this:-

"Plains of Eidolon [is] compartmentalized from the rest of the game." 

[Hypernaut1]

Its funny how salt is so popular on a games forum. Its almost like gleeful validation for some...i dont get it.

[Antiphoton]

All right, let's try a different approach. In the first place, I didn't expect them to make a self contained world, with its own rules and systems, totally disconnected from the already existing larger (and arguably more relevant) world. But since they already did it and there is no going back, at the very least they could make bounties and incursions give a reasonable amount of fishing and mining resources.

Edited October 18, 2017 by Antiphoton

[fatpig84]

To be fair he has valid points. Because POE will be a huge time sink from the rest of the meat of the game.
As of right now, you are farming a 2nd set of resources and if a new open world occurs, are we supposed to farm for another 3rd set of resource to use the gear there?

Also for most of the part, Operator weapons and Zaws are bragging rights, but they have no real bearing on how we play.

My 3 forma Orthos Prime already decimates everything handily even at Sortie level (its my fave melee at 31% nothing is gonna separate me from it) and I even got a more powerful (but imo boring) Atterax. Do i need another melee wiper ? Well nope. 

Operator custom AMPs are kinda kinda cool, but I don't face many Sentient enemies. Even then the basic void beam handily resets their immunity, so I can go back to my main weapons and finish them off. So why do i really need Operator Amps ? Other than doing solo eidolon hunts for bragging rights (which is still a massive time sink btw)  it has no real purpose. A 4 man with CP can still do it so much faster even with basic amps.

Also yes there is the logic break with Archwings.
We already can use them in space and undersea for free.  There will be a major disconnect when new players who thought they need fuel for AW on Earth. Then when they finally unlocked Uranus, they realized AW doesn't require fuel even when undersea which is far more demanding than air travel (due to resistance etc).

The logic break is huge, they will feel ripped off when they realized AW doesn't require fuel in space or undersea. But for some reason require fuel in atmosphere. So I feel that it is really bad form to timelock/grind lock AW this way.

Edited October 18, 2017 by fatpig84

[Rhekemi]

48 minutes ago, xXx_mtv_xXx said:

See the problem is that you assumed you already had everything you will possibly ever need in this game when it comes to archwing and will not have to grind for it again. That's not how things work in this game. 

If that made sense, I'd be willing to let this point go.

The problem is it doesn't.

Actual, meaningful, useful, new additions to existing Warframe gear and content I (and every other player) will gladly buy or grind for. We know how Warframe works and love it. We don't assume or presume we're smarter than the devs and know what we'll need and not need in the future.

A good example of meaningful new content that expands on existing gear? Segments like the Incubator segment. 

It does not do exactly what could be done before, it does something new; the upgraded segment prevents the death of your pets when you're away for extended periods of time. I didn't even hesitate to farm resources for my clan's dojo, or to buy the blueprint, or to build it. I love my pets and keeping them alive when I'm away is awesome.

Again, I didn't know they'd add the segment, but when they did, I had no issue with it. 

My objection to Archwing launchers has nothing to do with assuming or thinking I know everything / have everything I need for Archwing.

My objection is that the grindwall is unjustified because it's existing content (it does not add anything substantially new), it's arbitrary, poorly thought out, and a lazy way to force me to farm the new resources. 

Furthermore, unlike the Incubator segment (which did something we couldn't do before), Archwing launchers make no canonical or lore sense to me.

As of TWW we could already launch our Archwings at will without our Liset launching it toward us (as seen in the original trailer) and without an Archwing launcher.

Spoiler

 

 

There's no reason this feature couldn't have worked the same way in Cetus.

Excuse my noobishness in the video. That's one of many videos (uploaded as private) from my first playthrough of TWW last year.

Edited October 18, 2017 by Rhekemi