Covert Lethality needs to go, or get reworked.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

CL is fine. I just wish there was a CL for a few other melee classes as well.

[Tsukinoki]

1 hour ago, (Xbox One)RDeschain82 said:

CL is fine. I just wish there was a CL for a few other melee classes as well.

Honestly the other melee classes don't need it.

Most melee classes have:
-Higher damage
-Higher "stealth attack" multipliers
This allows a lot of other weapons to insta-kill enemies even into sortie levels against Grineer with stealth attacks.

It's just not needed on them.
The only reason it exists for daggers is because of the overall poor shape the weapon class is in.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

50 minutes ago, Tsukinoki said:

Honestly the other melee classes don't need it.

Most melee classes have:
-Higher damage
-Higher "stealth attack" multipliers
This allows a lot of other weapons to insta-kill enemies even into sortie levels against Grineer with stealth attacks.

It's just not needed on them.
The only reason it exists for daggers is because of the overall poor shape the weapon class is in.

Still, for some it would be nice to have. Like for dual daggers, throwing melee and some impact damaged based melee weapons. 

Would be a big bandaid TBH but let's face it DE likes Bandaids.

Edited October 28, 2017 by (XB1)RDeschain82

[ScribbleClash]

On 23.10.2017 at 11:18 PM, Hixlysss said:

Because it gives me a reason to use them again, to use other stances and rivens. Why bother with stances or rivens for the dagger when CL is just superior? That's why it needs to change.

Alternatively, using your own argument, it's slow and ineffcient, why SHOULDN'T it be changed if it's crappy? Just make it give it's damage boost + finisher damage(making it useful on ground finishers as well).

Let me enlighten you about stances: 90% of them are garbage. Changes to CL will not fix that.

And while I do not get why people want to defend rivens will always be a mystery to me. The pure rng, not to mention they practically killed ever getting the damage rework to remove mandatory mods, is just plain bad.

However, just to erase your silly argument about CL making a riven pointless, CL can benefit from an attack speed riven greatly.

CL is warframe dependent on order to perform well. If we take all options into account, then how does this outperform melees which deal up to a million damage?

[(PSN)Crixus044]

11 hours ago, Almagnus1 said:

And that's the exact point I'm making.

If the weapon isn't top tier, it's just MR fodder.  At least CL gives daggers a very niche place.

I like covert lethality, but you don't need it. Didn't you see my earlier post? Daggers beat swords even without finishers. Our best sword, the broken war, isn't nearly as effective as the karyst, yet is the broken war mastery fodder? Not to it's many users. I disagree with the op, but daggers are not trash without it.

[Hixlysss]

5 hours ago, ScribbleClash said:

Let me enlighten you about stances: 90% of them are garbage. Changes to CL will not fix that.

And while I do not get why people want to defend rivens will always be a mystery to me. The pure rng, not to mention they practically killed ever getting the damage rework to remove mandatory mods, is just plain bad.

However, just to erase your silly argument about CL making a riven pointless, CL can benefit from an attack speed riven greatly.

CL is warframe dependent on order to perform well. If we take all options into account, then how does this outperform melees which deal up to a million damage?

Infinite damage is greater than a million. Numerous frames, Ivara, Equinox, Inaros, ect, can utilize CL, so it's not like there aren't options for putting it into actual use.

While the stances being mostly garbage...yeah, but CL doesn't help. It doesn't help the daggers or melee in general. As for why people defend rivens? It's because Riven cards allow you, personally, to make a weapon unique to you. Don't like the fire rate on arca plasmor, but can't sacrifice the damage to put a RoF mod on? Get a riven! The list goes on.

Where as CL...well CL has the same issue as other "Mandatory mods" Minus the whole "Mandatory mods are for slowing progression!" CL allows someone to completely ignore every other melee mod, with perhaps the exception of attack speed for increasing finisher animation speed as you mentioned, and just 1 shot everything using Excalibur and radial blind.

[Hayabusa97]

On 10/23/2017 at 4:11 PM, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

Arson Exemi will trigger their AoE regardless of seeing you. If they see someone nearby die, they will trigger the AoE. If you bump into one, they will trigger the AoE. If you miss the finisher prompt on them and do a normal attack by mistake, they will trigger the AoE. And they can trigger the AoE even when asleep/stunned/ragdolled.

Honestly, I find the fact that certain actions (Ground pound, grapple, and Eximus AOE) are uninterruptible like that to be total bull.

[Ketec]

i don't like it so destroy everyone else's builds and make dagger s 500% useless? People like you are the reason twitch got nerfed to oblivion.

And people defending rivens - rivens SUCK.  A daily grind for a RANDOM riven chance, idiotic unlocks,  kuva repetitive grind  plus a simple power creep.
Introduction of rivens just made modding and warframe worse - instead should have fixed the crappy weapons to begin with.

Edited October 28, 2017 by Ketec

[Hixlysss]

6 hours ago, Ketec said:

i don't like it so destroy everyone else's builds and make dagger s 500% useless? People like you are the reason twitch got nerfed to oblivion.

And people defending rivens - rivens SUCK.  A daily grind for a RANDOM riven chance, idiotic unlocks,  kuva repetitive grind  plus a simple power creep.
Introduction of rivens just made modding and warframe worse - instead should have fixed the crappy weapons to begin with.

If daggers are only useful with this 1 mod then the mod needs to be fixed and daggers as a whole need to get looked at. Seriously, you just pointed out the problem. Daggers made useless without CL? CL Needs to be changed!

Honestly, I hate rivens, I still want them gone but I know they aren't going away so I've accepted them as here to stay. Riven's how ever do accomplish one thing, bringing older/weaker weapons up to higher end content, such as being able to bring a lato along in a sortie, which you couldn't do before without a riven. Correction...you could bring a lato, and waste all your ammo to kill 1 enemy in a sortie, you could do it but just not efficiently.

[DatDarkOne]

7 hours ago, Hayabusa97 said:

Honestly, I find the fact that certain actions (Ground pound, grapple, and Eximus AOE) are uninterruptible like that to be total bull.

You can knock them out of it at the beginning of the animation.  They all can also be blocked.  Melee block and Power Drift allow this.  The grapple using enemies can even be killed after they connect which completely stops them pulling the attacked tenno in.  

Just giving info that you might not be aware of fellow Tenno.  :D

[Ketec]

1 hour ago, Hixlysss said:

If daggers are only useful with this 1 mod then the mod needs to be fixed and daggers as a whole need to get looked at. Seriously, you just pointed out the problem. Daggers made useless without CL? CL Needs to be changed!

Honestly, I hate rivens, I still want them gone but I know they aren't going away so I've accepted them as here to stay. Riven's how ever do accomplish one thing, bringing older/weaker weapons up to higher end content, such as being able to bring a lato along in a sortie, which you couldn't do before without a riven. Correction...you could bring a lato, and waste all your ammo to kill 1 enemy in a sortie, you could do it but just not efficiently.

When was the last teem DE actually "fixed" any useless weapon types? Never.
They will simply nerf the mod and that's it.

[Almagnus1]

6 hours ago, Ketec said:

When was the last teem DE actually "fixed" any useless weapon types? Never.
They will simply nerf the mod and that's it.

I'd rather DE just does nothing with CL, and give us a way (like with the Zaws) to make a GOOD dagger, or release better daggers.

Not that hard...

Edited October 29, 2017 by Almagnus1

[DatDarkOne]

Here's something to think about.  If CL was so OP, then why is there only one frame that can get to enemies leveled 9999 using it.  

CL by itself isn't powerful at all.  It only becomes useful when paired with Warframe powers.  It's the frame powers that make CL and not the mod by itself.  :D

Edited October 29, 2017 by DatDarkOne

[DeltaPangaea]

16 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:

You can knock them out of it at the beginning of the animation.

I rarely find this to be the case. If a Gunner or Bombard starts a ground pound animation, then it WILL go off, even if you disrupt them in some way, often snapping to the animation, or just not doing any animation at all and the blast wave triggering with no visual response.

It's been this way for years.

[Nazrethim]

9 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:

Here's something to think about.  If CL was so OP, then why is there only one frame that can get to enemies leveled 9999 using it.  

CL by itself isn't powerful at all.  It only becomes useful when paired with Warframe powers.  It's the frame powers that make CL and not the mod by itself.  :D

Not exactly. Powers are supposed to be powerful gamechangers. So that interaction with CL is good.

The problem is power spam.

Remove the means to spam powers and you literally solve most of the gamebalance problems of the game in one fel swoop. Then you can fix enemy scaling (mostly making Armor a  fixed value for enemies and not scale anymore and tweaking damage values for units so snipers and rocket enemies get deadlier while the machinegun enemies stay mostly the same).

Nerfing specific elements never solves the problem because they are trying to nerf the result and not the disease. Look at what happened to Ash: BS went for a well designed ability that was annoying and op ONLY when mindlessly spammed to a useless ability that requires tons of cr*p stacked just to not be terrible.

Edited October 29, 2017 by Nazrethim

[DeltaPangaea]

9 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

Not exactly. Powers are supposed to be powerful gamechangers.

Some are. Some are meant to be used more frequently. It depends on the power.

[DatDarkOne]

9 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

Not exactly. Powers are supposed to be powerful gamechangers. So that interaction with CL is good.

The problem is power spam.

You might have mistaken what I meant.  I Don't think the interaction is bad. 

Also the frame that can use CL to get to lvl 9999 also doesn't have a power spam issue.  Why, because that frame Ivara can only get energy through orbs or synd procs while doing this feat due to Prowl being a channeled ability.  It's done using good energy management with Prowl and Sleep Arrow.  You can't just spam the powers needlessly because you will run out of energy and then die.  

Power spam has nothing to do with it really in this case.  :D

[(XBOX)Angryspy101]

2 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

The problem is power spam.

Remove the means to spam powers and you literally solve most of the gamebalance problems of the game in one fel swoop. Then you can fix enemy scaling (mostly making Armor a  fixed value for enemies and not scale anymore and tweaking damage values for units so snipers and rocket enemies get deadlier while the machinegun enemies stay mostly the same)

Power spam is a problem that will never get fixed. Idk about you, but I play warframe to be a space wizard, spamming abilities is what makes warframe special for a lot of people and removing it would most likely make most frames if not all feel less fun to use.

2 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

Look at what happened to Ash: BS went for a "well designed ability" that was annoying and op ONLY when mindlessly spammed to a useless ability that requires tons of cr*p stacked just to not be terrible.

Old bladestorm was no way a "well designed ability" it was just another AOE ability that was better than the other crap ton of AOE abilities Because it dealt finisher damage.

I mean c'mon, brokenstorm even makes Ash's other abilities feel pointless since it did stupid damage, made ash immune to all damage, and it even cleared rooms filled with lvl 100 enemies. Hell old bladestorm even made your weapons seem useless. I as of one don't mind current bladestorm, I use it to deal with enemies that Teleport can't take care of or if the enemy spawn rate start to get out of hand and it always worked out well for me. Plus bladestorm is one of the few damage abilities that can actually kill most lvl 100 enemies in seconds. 

Tell me, If you gave someone godly powers, do you expect them to not abuse it? 

[Volinus7]

It's not that hard to balance stuffs in Warframe, a few check lists and standardised test environments are enough to measure kill/min and rank versatility.

But once the balance procedures are out, a solid tier list will follow and DE will be forced to decide how to tidy up the whole katamari ball they keep piling up for four years, full balance/ladder type is one tough question. Still it's the right thing to do unless most players are ignorant.

[Nazrethim]

3 hours ago, DeltaPangaea said:

Some are. Some are meant to be used more frequently. It depends on the power.

Agreed. The problem is that we can spam all powers, and we have the means to enable that. I would prefer if stronger powers (mostly mass AoE and invulnerabilities) had huge cost that cannot be bypassed, while weaker abilties get reduced cost so you can actually use them frequently. This would require a change to the energy system (or even replacing said system entirely.

 

1 hour ago, (Xbox One)Angryspy101 said:

Power spam is a problem that will never get fixed. Idk about you, but I play warframe to be a space wizard, spamming abilities is what makes warframe special for a lot of people and removing it would most likely make most frames if not all feel less fun to use.

Realistically, you're right. I don't see DE actually solving that.

As I said, it's not a problem if you spam small scale abilities that have minor impact on game, but massive "FK The World" abilities being spammed are a problem.

1 hour ago, (Xbox One)Angryspy101 said:

Old bladestorm was no way a "well designed ability" it was just another AOE ability that was better than the other crap ton of AOE abilities Because it dealt finisher damage.

By comparisong to current failstorm, it was well designed. It had some sort of anti-spam drawback (lockin the foolish player onto highly resistant to bs Eximi and Disruptors). It had a balanced cost for it's effect (because it had a target cap, something no other AoE had which served as another drawback) and had a nice execution time regardless of your other equipment.

1 hour ago, (Xbox One)Angryspy101 said:

I mean c'mon, brokenstorm even makes Ash's other abilities feel pointless since it did stupid damage, made ash immune to all damage, and it even cleared rooms filled with lvl 100 enemies

Assuming no eximi or disruptor were around, those needed to be dispatched by other means first. And the clear just applied to grunts, heavier enemies took multiple hits to kill. While it had high damage, it had a limited amount of attacks and targets (18 attacks cap and 18 targets cap, so to get multiple stabs on a single enemy you needed to mark less enemies) unlike every other nuke that had no target cap.

1 hour ago, (Xbox One)Angryspy101 said:

Hell old bladestorm even made your weapons seem useless.

I can't really argue with that, but Ash wasn't the only one back then and wouldn't be now either.

1 hour ago, (Xbox One)Angryspy101 said:

I as of one don't mind current bladestorm, I use it to deal with enemies that Teleport can't take care of or if the enemy spawn rate start to get out of hand and it always worked out well for me. Plus bladestorm is one of the few damage abilities that can actually kill most lvl 100 enemies in seconds. 

Yeah, both abilities do the exact same thing, except one has better damage scaling and cost but can't deal with specific enemies and the other is an energy sink that hits for way less and works on some of the enemies the former cannot.

You still think that Damage is the ONLY important aspect of an ability. The ability s*cks so bad at a mechanical level that is not worth using outside of very specific situations or with builds that are more minmaxed than R2D2.

1 hour ago, (Xbox One)Angryspy101 said:

Tell me, If you gave someone godly powers, do you expect them to not abuse it? 

I totally expect them to abuse it, hence why I wouldn't give them those powers, or at least not easily or without some serious drawback or cooldown/timer.

 

53 minutes ago, Volinus7 said:

It's not that hard to balance stuffs in Warframe, a few check lists and standardised test environments are enough to measure kill/min and rank versatility.

But once the balance procedures are out, a solid tier list will follow and DE will be forced to decide how to tidy up the whole katamari ball they keep piling up for four years, full balance/ladder type is one tough question. Still it's the right thing to do unless most players are ignorant.

Indeed, once you get past the thinking part, balancing is mostly a numbers affair. And sadly most players are ignorant and can't tell good design from sh*tty shody design (hence why there are people who defend failstorm).

But yeah, I can't see DE trying to fix the Jenga tower of broken stuff they built any time soon.

[(XBOX)Angryspy101]

1 hour ago, Nazrethim said:

You still think that Damage is the ONLY important aspect of an ability. The ability s*cks so bad at a mechanical level that is not worth using outside of very specific situations or with builds that are more minmaxed than R2D2.

I don't think that damage is the only thing that matters, but again in my opinion the whole marking system isn't that much of a big deal, you could just keep it passively on so when you need it ,you can use it fast, or just simply look right and left 2-3 times and cast it. The energy cost isn't much of a problem since efficiency is kinda mandatory for pretty much any frame, or I could just use rage with quick thinking with ash since he has a high health pool. 

However I still don't see the point of comparing an augment to a base ability. Your assuming everybody who plays ash will use(or have) fatal teleport 100% of the time. Teleport is meant to be more of an mobility ability that has a finisher proc just as an add-on. The augment just focuses more on the finisher aspect rather than mobility part. Bladestorm is an straight forward damage ability that will deal damage to anything that gets marked, it even does work against most bosses/minibosses( try using bladestorm against them when their shields are down, it deals a crap ton of damage). On content the average player faces, bladestorm would  be a faster way to deal with hordes of enemies, no need to aim with pin point accuracy and spam teleport when bladestorm can just kill them with a 360°. Bladestorm might not oneshot them but they'll die in like 2-3 seconds most of the time.

Of course my reasoning to like bladestorm doesn't mean it doesn't deserve some simple tweaks tho.

[Nazrethim]

9 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Angryspy101 said:

I don't think that damage is the only thing that matters, but again in my opinion the whole marking system isn't that much of a big deal, you could just keep it passively on so when you need it ,you can use it fast, or just simply look right and left 2-3 times and cast it. The energy cost isn't much of a problem since efficiency is kinda mandatory for pretty much any frame, or I could just use rage with quick thinking with ash since he has a high health pool. 

Rage isn't enough to fuel BS unless you stand still and facetank damage on purpose to fuel it. And most frames use Effi to make abilities with reasonable costs dirtcheap, not make a ludicrous nigh unusable one have a reasonable cost.

9 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Angryspy101 said:

However I still don't see the point of comparing an augment to a base ability. Your assuming everybody who plays ash will use(or have) fatal teleport 100% of the time.

As far as I can tell, most current Ash players have Fatal Teleport, or Seeking Shuriken. Even newbie players who get ash trough sheer luck, trade or plat get it asap.

9 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Angryspy101 said:

 

Teleport is meant to be more of an mobility ability that has a finisher proc just as an add-on. The augment just focuses more on the finisher aspect rather than mobility part.

I partially agree on this as originally Teleport didn't have the opening (closed beta times)

9 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Angryspy101 said:

Bladestorm is an straight forward damage ability that will deal damage to anything that gets marked, it even does work against most bosses/minibosses( try using bladestorm against them when their shields are down, it deals a crap ton of damage). On content the average player faces, bladestorm would  be a faster way to deal with hordes of enemies, no need to aim with pin point accuracy and spam teleport when bladestorm can just kill them with a 360°. Bladestorm might not oneshot them but they'll die in like 2-3 seconds most of the time.

Here's the thing: I've spoken with a few players who made a beeline to Ash or his prime or flat out bought it with platinum and came to the conclusion BS is utter sh*t, even if you don't have Fatal Teleport.

9 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Angryspy101 said:

Of course my reasoning to like bladestorm doesn't mean it doesn't deserve some simple tweaks tho.

I agree on this. The current ability isn't entirely lost. It just needs a few tweaks, like making the 3mark the standard without additional cost to prevent it from skyrocketing, clones actually assisting Ash so you only see a fraction of the cutscenes. Those two alone would make it much more manageable.

[low1991]

Leave my Covert Lethality ALONE!

[Dasmir]

we are going to ignore daggers have the most S#&$ty stats in the game?

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Dagger

you NEED a Zaw if you want a decent dagger unlike other weapons where Zaw its more like a side-grade, CL its what makes those S#&$ty daggers playable, the new stance its what makes dagger soo good now, it gives you dagger a bleed of stereoids with a finisher on top, even without CL you will facerolling 80+ enemies with the bleed procs and a critical based Zaw.

 

Also NO EVERYONE HAVE A BLOODY RIVEN FOR DAGGER.

 

 

 

[(PSN)Crixus044]

18 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:

Here's something to think about.  If CL was so OP, then why is there only one frame that can get to enemies leveled 9999 using it.  

CL by itself isn't powerful at all.  It only becomes useful when paired with Warframe powers.  It's the frame powers that make CL and not the mod by itself.  :D

Well this is true for the most part, but there are actually better ways to get finishers. Stinging Truth stance has a combo that opens enemies to finishers, so daggers now don't even need anything else to get a finisher. Just perform the up combo.

Also, the Parry mod (my preferred method) worked extremely well for the longest time with tankier warframes. All you do is run up to an enemy, have them melee you, channel block when they do, it'll stagger them, and you'll get a finisher prompt.

Zakti makes it so you don't even have to take damage or perform a finisher. Just shoot him and wait for the explosion, then finisher. This is the best method for squishier frames.

With high shield warframes, i used Retribution to get them to hit my shields. With retribution, it'd hit them with an electric proc, that'd then prompt a finisher.

Of course, the standard stealth, ash teleport, savage silence banshee, sleep ivara, sleep equinox, paralysis valkyr, cloud walker wukong, desiccate inaros, radial blind Excalibur, or gara's passive works just as well.

1 hour ago, Dasmir said:

we are going to ignore daggers have the most S#&$ty stats in the game?

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Dagger

you NEED a Zaw if you want a decent dagger unlike other weapons where Zaw its more like a side-grade, CL its what makes those S#&$ty daggers playable, the new stance its what makes dagger soo good now, it gives you dagger a bleed of stereoids with a finisher on top, even without CL you will facerolling 80+ enemies with the bleed procs and a critical based Zaw.

 

Also NO EVERYONE HAVE A BLOODY RIVEN FOR DAGGER.

 

 

 

 

I am not agreeing with the op, but please read my comment.