[DELAYED] Damage 2.5 Part 1: Physical Damage

[phoenix1992]

So are we shuffling the meta this year?

[Lorechill]

My version:
Impact - first proc staggers(same as planned), second opens up to (standing)finishers but are not stealth crits, 3rd knocks down enemy x meters away.
Melee Impact finishers - Staggering an enemy near a wall or surface will open them up to a gory finisher for you to sandwich them between your Fragor and said surface.

Puncture - bypasses % of armor and damages health by its difference. Enemies have now two-three UI bars-health, armor and/or shields. Enemies can die with armor at half strength but can be pierced health directly by puncture 'proc' ala sonar effect based on status chance % + base piercing damage. weak against shield.

Slash - Same proc chance and multipliers but cannot pierce through shields and armor. In order for slash to damage and take effect, shields must be completely down and armor damaged to a point(lets say 75%).

Now with balanced IPS weapons, everything would be accounted for but would have a damage hierarchy. Shields>Armor>Health. Status chance would be calculated based on the first damage type effectively inflicted on an enemy. 
If a weapon is predominantly puncture but still has a small impact and slash, and you are against shielded enemies, the impact would still proc but in a small value based on the base impact damage of the weapon. Puncture would have a minuscule effect and slash almost nonexistent.

 

[BornWithTeeth]

15 hours ago, SSI_Seraph said:

They said it's the total slash damage instead of the 35% of your total damage on a dev stream. 

Fun fact, even if they nerfed it like you calculated it, people will still pick it because it's still better than the other two even after these changes.

Yes, but they are not in any way at all going to change the damage calculation of Slash procs from [35% of total damage] to [80 to 100% of Slash damage] because what that would do is massively, colossally buff weapons which are already Slash based. Can you imagine a Critical Hit Slash Status proc from the Nikana Prime if the Slash Status damage was not 35% of the total but was instead 90% of the hit’s Slash damage? Sweet Jesus.

[DatDarkOne]

7 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

Yes, but they are not in any way at all going to change the damage calculation of Slash procs from [35% of total damage] to [80 to 100% of Slash damage] because what that would do is massively, colossally buff weapons which are already Slash based. Can you imagine a Critical Hit Slash Status proc from the Nikana Prime if the Slash Status damage was not 35% of the total but was instead 90% of the hit’s Slash damage? Sweet Jesus.

You know, that would be a massive buff.  Lol

[SSI_Seraph]

il y a 11 minutes, BornWithTeeth a dit :

Yes, but they are not in any way at all going to change the damage calculation of Slash procs from [35% of total damage] to [80 to 100% of Slash damage] because what that would do is massively, colossally buff weapons which are already Slash based. Can you imagine a Critical Hit Slash Status proc from the Nikana Prime if the Slash Status damage was not 35% of the total but was instead 90% of the hit’s Slash damage? Sweet Jesus.

oh don't worry, I'm not ok with this change either buffed or not. Having impact making everything fly all over the place and limiting the good options even more because of a slash buff/nerf with the change in general that they plan, no ty. 

I actually want to use more than 10 effective weapons and not have to chase something launched 10m away. 

As for puncture, I don't think they do realize that by he time you'd use the reduction (not 1-3 shotting), they can already oneshot you even with the x% damage left). I guess puncture will be useful when ranking weapons 

[BornWithTeeth]

1 minute ago, SSI_Seraph said:

oh don't worry, I'm not ok with this change either buffed or not. Having impact making everything fly all over the place and limiting the good options even more because of a slash buff/nerf with the change in general that they plan, no ty. 

I actually want to use more than 10 effective weapons and not have to chase something launched 10m away. 

It’s that, in grand DE fashion, they said ‘We’re gonna rebalance damage types so that Impact and Puncture can be as valuable as Slash!’ and their proposed changes literally achieve the opposite of that. Impact has been made less attractive as an option, and weapons with 40% or higher base Slash have been made the only effective choice.

 

DE. Guys. Stop it. Go spend a few months playing your own game.

[Bratty_Child]

10 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

Yes, but they are not in any way at all going to change the damage calculation of Slash procs from [35% of total damage] to [80 to 100% of Slash damage] because what that would do is massively, colossally buff weapons which are already Slash based. Can you imagine a Critical Hit Slash Status proc from the Nikana Prime if the Slash Status damage was not 35% of the total but was instead 90% of the hit’s Slash damage? Sweet Jesus.

Because only few weapon would actually benefit from it and those weapon are already meta. Most other weapon don't have enough slash damage to make it near as good.

 

I'm not a meta basher but I do concerned with other non slash weight weapon that I enjoy will likely to be nerfed. 

[Trichouette]

Il y a 8 heures, Cytobel a dit :

Compare Hunter Munitions to a 100% Status shotgun with a high slash-base.  One of these is 70% better than the other, and it's not the mod.

The difference is that one is supposed to be a thing that proc slash and deal damage, the other is supposed to make your companion better by allowing you to give him an attack command and it turned out to be a damage mod for most crit weapons. Which was probably not the goal.

Il y a 8 heures, Cytobel a dit :

In fact, no mention of any new benefit to slash can be found in the OP.  Slash is changed only by the fact that it's damage is now based off the total SLASH damage, rather than the TOTAL damage.

I guess you didn't get it, it's now based of the TOTAL slash damage, that means buzzkill/maim/etc will be relevant to increase the slash damage while they are currently NOT able to do that.

Currently buzzkill/maim/etc  mods are only used to increase the slash damage in order to make it more likely for slash to be procced instead of the other element, which makes non slash based weapons able to proc slash (akstilleto for example)

And no I am not trolling, you don't have to react like this.

 

Il y a 1 heure, SSI_Seraph a dit :

There are a lot of great ideas floating (stun/knockout for impact, banshee like spots that stack for puncture or spots where the armor is reduced that stack too, ect...) since they announced the changes but they are too stubborn I guess to see how bad their old procs are and that increasing their efffect will only be more annoying for ipact and useless for puncture. 

So yh there are solutions, their current implementation is bad from the base idea of the procs and slash will stay the only good option even if nerfed or not (the wording on the post is unclear) 

Yes they are stubborn, but guess what, no matter what kind of CC or armor reduction impact/puncture can have, corrosive projection and warframe abilities will be better at doing both these things.

Nobody care about using status guns to CC, it's used to deal more damage hence why slash/toxin/gas/viral are more used.

Puncture proc could create a "non armor spot" on your target it still wouldn't be used because 4 CP does the job better (unless in solo mode I guess)

[phoenix1992]

5 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

It’s that, in grand DE fashion, they said ‘We’re gonna rebalance damage types so that Impact and Puncture can be as valuable as Slash!’ and their proposed changes literally achieve the opposite of that. Impact has been made less attractive as an option, and weapons with 40% or higher base Slash have been made the only effective choice.

 

DE. Guys. Stop it. Go spend a few months playing your own game.

What do you mean, Teeth?

Nothing is more attractive than swinging your War around and messing with your team.

[phoenix1992]

*clem*

[Maugre]

3 minutes ago, phoenix1992 said:

What do you mean, Teeth?

Nothing is more attractive than swinging your War around and messing with your team.

If this goes through I'm definitely maining a pure status/range war.

[Zendadaist]

Well, the various concerns I have have already been discussed to death here so I'll just add my +1 to issues with impact ragdolling being more of a hindrance than help, slash procs with Vulpine Mask/Defiled Snapdragon etc - how will that work?, RIP Hunter Munitions Amprex.

[Bratty_Child]

How about change how IPS mods work? Scales off base damage instead of base IPS, this way the thing can reach and have enough damage and have the proc

[Anthraxicus]

18 hours ago, [DE]Connor said:

Slash has long been considered the most powerful of these effects, primarily because Slash procs stack on top of one another and scale with weapon damage, while both Puncture and Impact procs could only have their flat effects refreshed.

 

Be careful. If you cannot grasp the most basic and fundamental reason people prefer slash over the others (hint: it is not what you think), then you cannot hope to get these changes right. You may end up having the opposite effect and pushing the meta towards two elemental damage types only.

You could do a little experiment before you go any further with this. Add two mods similar to Hunter Munitions but that works with the other two damage types with the proposed changes. The Impact Munitions will proc impact and scale all the way up to a ragdoll and the other will weaken enemies up to 90%. See how many people switch Hunter Munitions for the new mods. Let's us know the results which we already know.

[phoenix1992]

I mean... guys you are afraid of the change being half baked.

I am interested to see the epic fail that will happen from weapons that hit with multiple status effects (mostly assault riffles).

Example : My tenora hits for impact, puncture and viral + Hunter munition + a healthy dose of status/crit. Will enemies fly off when i hit them or..?

[QQQQMkII]

Part of the what's clouding the waters is that a few forced slash procs are intended to simulate armor-piercing.   For a re-work to make sense, you have to go find them, change them, and then change the mechanisms that trigger on procs to depend on the right proc. (bleeding = slash, armor pierced=pierce)

It is silly that slash is the best anti-armor proc, and pierce does nothing. 

 

That said, here are the suggestions:

Pierce becomes the new anti-armor proc:  When Pierce proccs, a fraction of the total attack's damage ignores armor and shields.

Slash becomes a purely anti-health measure: When Slash procs, the target takes a multiple of the slash damage it took to health as a finisher  DOT.

Impact becomes the anti-shield and, since shields are wimpy already, gets a little bonus:  When impact procs, a fraction of the total attack's damage ignores shields.  Impact also applies a -multishot and -melee attack speed affect for a time. 

[Bratty_Child]

2 minutes ago, phoenix1992 said:

I am interested to see the epic fail that will happen from weapons that hit with multiple status effects

My Lenz currently having Impact, Slash munition, Blast, Cold, Viral and Toxin. It would face problem with armor if the slash change happen but it will put Lenz at the right place. Other weapons, who knows

[BornWithTeeth]

DE, people keep saying this to you, but I’m gonna chime in once more before just giving up on this thread:

 

Your proposed changes will not achieve their stated intent. Slash status remains the only viable physical status. However, your proposed change in the calculation of Slash status proc damage is effectively a buff to weapons which are already meta Slash weapons, and a nerf to everything else, one of the broadest, most wide ranging nerfs which I have ever seen in the game.

 

We know you mean well, but we’re trying to tell you that these changes, if implemented exactly as we see them, will not have the effect which you seem to think they will.

 

 

Consider allowing the pure Slash damage mods, Buzz Kill, Fanged Fusillade, etc, to scale based off of total initial IPS rather than base Slash only, as this would allow for more diversity of weapon choice, i.e. would allow more weapons to deal the only effective physical Status damage.

[SSI_Seraph]

il y a 2 minutes, BornWithTeeth a dit :

Consider allowing the pure Slash damage mods, Buzz Kill, Fanged Fusillade, etc, to scale based off of total initial IPS rather than base Slash only, as this would allow for more diversity of weapon choice, i.e. would allow more weapons to deal the only effective physical Status damage.

Or make the other two do something decent out of the dozens of great ideas suggested since they announced this change on dev stream 101 and leave slash as it is.

We don't have infinite mod slots to band aid what is obviously a mistake.  

[Archwizard]

If I may be so bold as to suggest a few minor modifications:

• Don't go ahead with the "proc strength is now based on the damage distribution of the weapon" change. Keep the current system where proc chance is weighted based on physical distribution and proc strength considers the total damage of the weapon, but add the ability to stack all procs and to double-proc if you're over 100% chance.
  • As previously explained, making proc strength dependent on distribution fails to take into account weapons that have forced procs for damage types they lack, like Rapiers, Blade & Whips, and Hunter Munitions.
• Instead of "increased" damage against armor, let Puncture damage alone ignore a percentage of target armor equal to its current boost. Just a percentage, not the whole thing.
• Ragdolling enemies with Impact damage is fine -- just make it so they always suffer Finisher-based collision damage when they hit the environment, like with Snow Globe.

[RickyZen]

and then here i am, seeing someone disagree / agree about IPS change..

for me, this is going to be new experience and new learning material for me to do some experiment with my weapon, and i love experimenting with IPS because sometimes it give me perfect condition on some mission.

i think this is a good change, considering 95% of my IPS experiment has same problem, and that is Impact and Puncture is kinda weak and need some changes.

[s_milles]

Imagine if they changed all the damage types so they were more effective against each species type and synergysed well with that species. So grineer have armour so why doesn't puncture puncture that armour, reducing the max armour by say 5% and doing 5% of the total damage of that hit straight to health ignoring armour and these % would scale with mods giving more reason to maybe build puncture than say corrosive or radiation/viral or at least give way to different builds. Impact should be corpus focused so yes it should be effective against shields but maybe when you get an impact proc it will do AOE damage and an AOE knock-back scaling again off impact mods, this would pair well with say gas or even blast damage. Since slash also seems to be the go to because it just ignores shields/armour make it so it bleeds shields first and doesn't go through grineer armour and since infested don't usually have armour (ancients) the slash would be more effective vs these types of enemies.since the bleed now doesn't go through armour or shields it would be fair to make it so the procs increase in damage each time you proc up to a cap where each new proc would just refresh the bleed time. I personally think this would give great variety to builds one, because newbies will be able to go hey these enemies are corpus i should use impact but then more veterans could go with say strong or fast attacking puncture weapons to reduce the max shields corpus can have by 5% and do health damage too or even say magnetic and slash for more original slash procs. I hope the DEVS do something fun with the changes just thought here would be a good idea to brain storm some fun changes id be happy to see. (imagines strong impact build on cernos/prime procing a giant AOE impact hit blowing away lots of enemies similar to lenz or even just knock down, now i think about that knock away would be cancer to try kill high health enemies)

[LEGION346]

1 minute ago, RickyZen said:

and then here i am, seeing someone disagree / agree about IPS change..

for me, this is going to be new experience and new learning material for me to do some experiment with my weapon, and i love experimenting with IPS because sometimes it give me perfect condition on some mission.

i think this is a good change, considering 95% of my IPS experiment has same problem, and that is Impact and Puncture is kinda weak and need some changes.

New learning material? So you like discovering over and over again that slash is always the best? Changes proposed by DE won't change anything. Slash will still be the best while others will suck. No new ground to discovery. Again, changes to impact and puncture are pointless. We need other changes.

[BornWithTeeth]

7 minutes ago, SSI_Seraph said:

Or make the other two do something decent out of the dozens of great ideas suggested since they announced this change on dev stream 101 and leave slash as it is.

We don't have infinite mod slots to band aid what is obviously a mistake.  

When DE have decided to break something, that thing is doomed. This is something which DE have decided to break. A new meta will emerge, and I suspect that it will only be more restrictive than the current one.

 

 

I would absolutely love it if DE decided to give Puncture procs some kind of armour penetration. It would be amazing. But they are not going to do that. 

 

 

Physical damage and its associated status types are screwed...because DE envision and think about their game in ways which are not accurate to how it actually works. Nothing can fix that. Absolutely nothing.

[Maugre]

3 minutes ago, RickyZen said:

and then here i am, seeing someone disagree / agree about IPS change..

for me, this is going to be new experience and new learning material for me to do some experiment with my weapon, and i love experimenting with IPS because sometimes it give me perfect condition on some mission.

i think this is a good change, considering 95% of my IPS experiment has same problem, and that is Impact and Puncture is kinda weak and need some changes.

It's a shame this change won't really make them much stronger, even if you take slash out of the mix entirely.