Nerf/Rework Soundquake

[(XBOX)qcevolution]

I will never understand why people attempt to make this already grind heavy game even more grindy. More often than not when people are on hydron they are farming experience or relics. In other words, they'd like to finish it as quickly and efficiently as possible so they can get back to doing fun things. For instance if I've ran hydron 4 times trying to get my H1 relic. I'm happy to have someone speed up the grind a bit. Besides the power is really only useful in defense mission or camping.

[Birdframe_Prime]

3 hours ago, Sasuda said:

Well the thing is, if there's no measuring stick then how did you determine that you were consistently out-playing other players?

Yes, key indicators, but they mean nothing except in the context of that particular mission. Outplaying others means a general conglomeration of things like number of times they were downed and you were there to pick them up, competence of CC abilities, ability to control the flow of mobs from spawn to location, occasionally amount of kills but more importantly how you killed and what you killed, traversal and knowledge of map and consistent use of frame and weapons to best effect for the purpose of the mission.

A person can get the most damage, kills and so on, but on a capture or rescue mission that means nothing. A person can have least damage taken, but be the one that goes down the most often because he's loaded all his stats into shield instead of health and is being picked off every four seconds by infested Toxin procs, while others who mod for higher health and have thing like Life Strike or Vazarin to heal back up are taking more damage and surviving longer.

There is an end screen, but the stats are only there for context on that mission.

Likewise, there was, in fact, a 'player skill' rating based off missions run, completed, things done in the mission and so on, but DE actually removed it because the algorithms that determined the end value would wildly fluctuate based on the type of mission the players consistently ran. A stealthy exterminate run, for example, would count towards a massive chunk of 'skill' because the objective of that mode is to successfully kill things until you reach the end all while doing intelligent things like maintaining the stealth multiplier for affinity gain, taking no damage due to being stealthed and so on. But a Spy mission where the player just ran a Loki through and completed every vault in under 12 seconds (and trust me, that takes skill and map knowledge) but didn't ever need to kill anything thanks to high efficiency and duration Invis, would actually lose Skill rating due to having effectively done 'nothing' but achieve the objective, with no other points of reference along the way. Similarly in the old days of Keys, being able to run for 4 hours in T4 Survival for parts was down to team comp, and the Skill system would gladly show a skill increase for the frame that actually got the kills, like old Mag with infinite scaling, but would remain net-neutral for the guys that used the Torid for lacing the enemy approach with clouds of damage and CC that a Vauban would hold still for you and the Trin who would be spamming EV to keep it all going, meanwhile you'd see a loss for the Loki who was only there to run pick-up and Life Support, arguably the more skill-necessary job to get out of the camping ground and stay alive while getting pods and packs.

Basically there is no automatic system that defines what marks a player as 'skilled'.

While an actual recruiting Lobby would be an amazing feature, rather than just a recruiting Chat, there would still be no way to determine if the player walking in to that lobby was actually good at what they were trying to lobby into.

The other thing to consider here is that DE have already put in a place to go for lobby finding, people just don't use it. The Relays are supposed to be exactly that, you jump in to one of those and find people from a smaller pool than you would from the main Chat, and arguably going to the Pluto relay would suggest that, at bare minimum, the players there have at least seen most of the star chart content and are not going to need a Spoiler tag. But even that is debatable.

Edited December 22, 2017 by Thaylien

[BlackCoMerc]

Never agreed with a Nerf request before.

But yes, Soundquake is a mess right now, and it needs fixed. Best way to "play" Berehynia right now: Sit in middle. Hold 4.

I...don't think that was intended.

[(XBOX)O Cheeky 1]

Wish it were possible to nerf some players ability to moan about perfectly good frames and abilities.

Stealing kills?! Each frame has it's own roles within a game, providing support etc and get few kills. Some mission types need the likes of Quake or WOF  to hold enemies back.

Have you ever used Quake. AFK? That's a joke and impossible.

Matchmaking options in the lobby would be a perfect way to avoid  the aggro of players mission goals conflicting with another's. 

[SenorClipClop]

If it's any consolation, a Hydron-or-lower level Defense on the Grineer Ship tileset is one of the few instances where SQ cheese is effective without repercussion. The stationary objective, coupled with the fact that all lines of sight to the objective are very short, keeps the very frail Banshee very safe. In Hydron, enemies can't line up a shot on Banshee without coming into Soundquake's range, and so she can stunlock them without fear of retaliation from enemies beyond that range. Bring the same strategy to Sealab or Corpus Oupost defense maps and Banshee needs to be more careful than the Hydron afk.

It also really has its limits. To mod a really high Strength harms SQ's drain via Duration and/or Efficiency, incresing its efficiency too much can hurt its range, while increasing the range hurts its damage. Yes, it can still be used to cheese in the Starchart (like nost Warframe powers), but that's really where its efficacy bumps against the ceiling. 

[Guest]

I'm okay with the way it is right now.
I can either play for fun with any frame or go full efficiency/efficacy with Banshee/Speed Nova. And it's not like Banshee excels in every mission mode. Getting all the kills shouldn't be an issue either, everyone gets affinity as long as they remain within affinity range.

 

[ChillyWilly]

I can see why you want to nerf banshee 4. But its not like her 4 is the problem, its the augment

And.. I find it to be "Okay". I mean she is a GLASS CANNON.. So.. there's that

 

Banshee Sound Quake also fall off pretty quickly since it deal blast damage... Its like you complaining Ember WoF being too Op for Spear on Mars

It is okay what it is, Its not like she is the most op warframe in the entire game.

 

Lets Nerf Chroma for Eidolon Hunts

Lets Nerf Nova for Raids

Lets Nerf Frost for Defense

Lets Nerf Ember for Exterminate

 

Just because that warframe stands out from other warframe in some mission doesn't mean she/he have to be nerfed. I'm pretty sure most of pro players use Sonar Banshee, and Those people that just want to rush the content use Sound Quake only

[Sasuda]

18 hours ago, Thaylien said:

Basically there is no automatic system that defines what marks a player as 'skilled'.

While an actual recruiting Lobby would be an amazing feature, rather than just a recruiting Chat, there would still be no way to determine if the player walking in to that lobby was actually good at what they were trying to lobby into.

The other thing to consider here is that DE have already put in a place to go for lobby finding, people just don't use it. The Relays are supposed to be exactly that, you jump in to one of those and find people from a smaller pool than you would from the main Chat, and arguably going to the Pluto relay would suggest that, at bare minimum, the players there have at least seen most of the star chart content and are not going to need a Spoiler tag. But even that is debatable.

Really not sure why you aren't in favour of having an improved lobby system. Like I said it doesn't even have to actively try to separate players. Some basic improvements will naturally cause this. Here's a scenario if you go into a lobby looking to obtain Lith relics preferring players that want to go for 16 rounds of extractors, you'll first be lined up with players that chose those same options, then with people who wanted 12-15 or 17-20 etc. And if no players are around with similar options selected you can choose to start and hope someone else will pop in after seeing your request, go solo, or go public. You aren't guaranteed anything of course but you're more probable to end up with people you would prefer to go with, no? 
I'm not going to focus on too much on the skill factor here, like I said I'm well aware of factors that play in and team comp. There's definitely a way to show whether players have some level of skill, and regardless I'm talking about options. Optional matchmaking to assist players. And there's definitely a some clear indicators that a player isn't actually good at what they're trying to lobby in to. Does the player have high death rates, fail rates, revive rates? Do they succeed in the lobbies they create and join or not? It's not impossible to track, not entirely simple either of course. But again I'm not asking for perfect, I'm looking for better. And just by having options to prefer players with similar you will naturally gain the benefit of players of similar skill and goals ending up together more often without needing to try to measure any of those stats. Not always of course. But more likely. And that seems like a good thing to me.

Relays from the beginning were obviously not a better place to go for lobby finding. First problem is it means an extra loading screen. People go to relays because of the relay's features, it's not well designed to be a better lobby if it does a lot of other things that aren't being a better lobby. And the chats are the exact same, and the relay chat is even worse for lobbying. It's pretty much just a smaller region chat. Chat systems are not good lobby systems. Players have made code to help find each other, why doesn't the lobby automatically include it in the options players regularly choose and look for?
 

[Proslackernifty]

Please fix equinox first.  I was in a defense mission where the equinox killed everything on the map and no one got affinity.  Everyone's damage was 0%.  Wth is that.

[kgabor]

I'm never bothered by having a Resonating Quake Banshee in Defense or a Slow Nova in Hydron because more often than not i use RQ Banshee myself or Ivara with enemy radar mods and they just usually make it faster by doing damage or making the enemies more vulnerable since i either nuke the map or i don't sit at the objective during the whole mission.

At the end of the day it's just more xp for Focus and faster waves, troll hard cc frames on the other hand...

[BlackCoMerc]

On 12/22/2017 at 6:46 AM, (Xbox One)O Cheeky 1 said:

Wish it were possible to nerf some players ability to moan about perfectly good frames and abilities.

Stealing kills?! Each frame has it's own roles within a game, providing support etc and get few kills. Some mission types need the likes of Quake or WOF  to hold enemies back.

Have you ever used Quake. AFK? That's a joke and impossible.

Matchmaking options in the lobby would be a perfect way to avoid  the aggro of players mission goals conflicting with another's. 

To me, it's not about kill stealing. It's about utterly eliminating interaction for everyone else. 

Not that this is just a Banshee problem. Saryn used to do it; Mesa still does, to a lesser extent. It's a design problem, in that Support is an under supported role beyond CC Cheese.

[LSG501]

On 20/12/2017 at 1:28 AM, Somb3rBivalve said:

Now, our team wasn't particularly stellar and I'm not basing all my ideas on this one experience, but I don't think it's acceptable for players to essentially be able to be AFK and still contribute to the team.

In addition, I think the addition of the soundquake augment in its current form was a really bad decision. By letting the bonuses increase with time (damage and range), players are encouraged to stay in soundquake for longer, thereby encouraging a passive and lazy playstyle.

Yet many of the banshee players have asked for soundquake to changed so they CAN move around and do stuff while it's active. 

 

Honestly I don't see an issue with the abilities damage etc, it's just boring as anything to play, besides if you nerf banshee you'll just see as many equinox or embers with their abilities active etc. 

There's also a reason why players resort to using banshee soundquake (or other similar methods)... re-levelling stuff is painfully boring and long winded unless you do something where you can get standing quickly etc and trying to get specific rewards is annoying because of rng and diluted drop tables so players take the most efficient approach to speed things up. 

[Kei-Inc.]

I'm not sure if I completely agree. I do agree that it is very boring to sit and watch banshee clear the map but honestly, it's really boring when you play banshee as well.

Banshee is by far my favourite Warframe and I honestly don't like using her 4, it's really boring but also very useful (e.g. when farming axi relics on xini you can cover the entire map and crowd control). I don't think the range should be nerfed but maybe the damage if it bothers people so much. But honestly, you can't really AFK as SQ Banshee because the mod causes serious energy drain over time, it's not like WoF where you could keep it up for 5 rounds. Also, SQ is kind of a terrible damage ability, there are other frames that do it much better (e.g. equinox) it drops off pretty fast, for example, during hydron there are many times you just have to go and kill the tougher enemies because SQ takes forever. 

To me it's always been a CC ability, not damage, and whilst it is useful for clearing some maps, other frames can do the same, if not better damage. The star chart is just kind of easy. Furthermore, you can still die cause enemies can shoot you if you're out of range, so it's not very useful for open maps. 

Like I said, I disagree that you should nerf the range, because she is already pretty vulnerable. If you don't want it to be such a nuke then just nerf the damage of the augment, or the ability, or both, but keep the range.

[ACULonSeer]

On 12/19/2017 at 5:39 PM, ChaotikDreamz said:

Your complaining about basically getting free leveling. And asking for nerfs in a PvE farm fest. This is why we cant have nice things and new content. To many ppl crying nerf this nerf that in the content thats 5 years old.

 

Age does not determine quality, i mean look at Zephyr. Just cause she hasnt been changed since release (that i know of) doesnt mean shes perfect. 

[Birdframe_Prime]

14 hours ago, Sasuda said:

Really not sure why you aren't in favour of having an improved lobby system

See, this is the mistake you're making; I'm all for an improved lobby system, I just believe there's no way to make it actually do what the players here want it to do, mainly to avoid the people that they find to be not their kind of people.

That, of course, can mean anything, where you might want to go farming relics, so you'd need a four-man squad to ensure the best effect, but you want to avoid an Ember player because you actually like being able to kill things at low level and feel like a based Tenno god among weaklings, but can't because Ember has sprinted ahead with World on Fire and everything's dead before you get there. Meanwhile you might also want to avoid the players that are new to the game and you have to stop to pick them up whenever the enemy turns and waves a rifle at them, or because you don't want to ruin their game by being the superman that kills everything and they have to jog along behind you.

Sure you might want to be efficient and play faster, so you might want to be the Ember player on a Lith relic that's literally just there to do it the fastest it can be done, so you might appreciate anyone along... and they might appreciate you giving them free Affinity and reactant, but that's not everyone.

If you're not finding the people for it and just go, hoping that people will join you later, then any of the people you might not want in your squad (which is essentially what the lobby system is for) can just join in on you and you may as well have just gone Public in the first place and saved yourself ten minutes of lobby time.

I'm 100% in favour of a lobby system that helps players find like-minded players, or matches the lazy up with the over-achievers so that one can play the other can sponge exactly as the game allows for, or keeps players that are of one skill rating in a pool where they can all learn together, or all stomp together...

I just don't see how it would work in Warframe to even... a tenth of the players' satisfaction.

[Mr.Lube]

On 12/19/2017 at 8:39 PM, ChaotikDreamz said:

Your complaining about basically getting free leveling. And asking for nerfs in a PvE farm fest. This is why we cant have nice things and new content. To many ppl crying nerf this nerf that in the content thats 5 years old.

 

This is not and never will be a valid argument. There should never be an excuse for one player to take away content from another player.

I find it ironic how people complain about Limbo's stasis and how they can't shoot the enemies, but are perfectly fine with Mesa/Banshee killing them the moment they spawn. Now I'm not saying bring the nerf hammer, that won't be enough. Frames that only rely on a single ability to bypass gameplay should have a full kit evaluation.

Nidus and Harrow are excellent examples of extremely powerful frames who don't ruin things for others and have ability synergy.

[Valck]

Banshee is as fine as she is, most banshee players in Hydron are farming for focus exp, and those beside her get exp so, Win/Win. A fully built Sound quake banshee already consumes a lot of energy and needs at least an EV Trin or a clemload of pancakes to keep it steady especially on waves 10-20.

[WeissSchnee.]

On 12/19/2017 at 8:28 PM, Somb3rBivalve said:

with soundquake and hitting just about the whole map.

Banshees base range of sound quake with no range mods is a mere 20m. They have their build set for range / efficiency / strength. So what?

On 12/19/2017 at 8:28 PM, Somb3rBivalve said:

In addition, I think the addition of the soundquake augment in its current form was a really bad decision. By letting the bonuses increase with time (damage and range)

You're missing a key focus on that mod, it drastically increases energy drain the longer you are in sound quake.

On 12/19/2017 at 8:28 PM, Somb3rBivalve said:

So what would I do about it? Well, I would prefer soundquake be reworked in a way such that it would involve some more participation from the player

How would you go about doing this? Undertow is basically the same thing, sit in one spot and drag enemies into you vs. Sound quake sit in one spot have enemies run into you.

 

On 12/19/2017 at 8:28 PM, Somb3rBivalve said:

You still have the option to make soundquake into a "high-damage"

Sound quake isn't made to be a damage dealing ability, it's primary use is for stun locking the damage is there to help the team kill the enemies faster.

 

Please note, Banshees' sound quake is a base of 20m. With all range mods on it increases to 50m.  With the augment on it increases to a maximum of 80m. Now take note, that's taking up 3 mod slots, leaving 5 usable slots for duration, efficiency, strength mods and a utility mod (excluding cunning drift since range mod included in the 3 mods {overextended | stretch | cunning drift}). If you have cunning drift in the utility mod slot then you will have 6 slots to work with. Either way you have less spots to work with if you are building a range banshee for stunning enemies.

If you are building a power banshee you would see them using sonar more because of the massive damage increase to critical spots exposed on the enemies giving the player a chance to hit exponentially larger numbers than the base 100k they get from crits occasionally. 

Correct me if I am wrong anyone but in my experience of leveling banshee and using her on over 100+ missions, I have yet to see her sound quake hit anything over 4.5k damage on lvl 30+ enemies. That damage is childsplay damage for guns.

Please refrain from asking to nerf something until you  fully understand the concept and actual use of a warframes ability. Thank you.

[DeadScream]

Le 22/12/2017 à 15:02, (PS4)iQuedas a dit :

I'm okay with the way it is right now.
I can either play for fun with any frame or go full efficiency/efficacy with Banshee/Speed Nova. And it's not like Banshee excels in every mission mode. Getting all the kills shouldn't be an issue either, everyone gets affinity as long as they don't play

 

fixed that for you

[theGlassAlice]

Banshee lover here. I agree with this. It makes me sad to see people only use banshee for her Ult, the least useful ability in her skill set imo. She's so much more than that.

[TKDancer]

banshee needs tweaks in general

 

quicker 1-handed sonic boom

 

more reliable Silence(and a better name...)

 

and... just a better sonic quake that doesnt let her destroy whole maps of low level enemies but remains consistently useful through low to high level content(sitting duck CC isnt useful at high levels unless u have a competent pre-made team)

 

dont touch sonar tho

[(PSN)LadyPixi]

Leave my banshee alone. Using her in defense and interception missions is the whole point. She's my focus farming frame. She's the frame I take to level stuff. Never have I heard someone complain about me using her when I'm farming. Why? They are farming, too. 

Lets make life a little easier for other people sometimes. You wanna kill stuff? Get some friends, go solo, do a different mission. The way XP works in this game helps everyone despite one or two people destroying everything without much effort.

[(XBOX)Onyx Schnee]

On 12/19/2017 at 7:57 PM, Whitestrake0 said:

Actually wait I can just use the same thing Nidus players use to defend themselves. It only works in places where you have to stand still otherwise soundquake is pretty trash. Does that work? I think it dooooes.

weeeeelll.....technically thats true.

[wtrmlnjuc]

As it is currently, it’s not so much a problem of soundquake as it is a problem of its augment. Soundquake by itself isn’t strong enough to nuke maps beyond your regular level 20-30 enemies. It can stunlock high level enemies, yes and that’s about it for the vanilla version. Its augment however, increases range and damage over time. I vote to either get rid (or nerf) of one of the two attributes, or to increase the mod cost of the augment.

[Phyrak]

Maybe have banshee become a call back to her namesake?

Like that of the old Irish tales, let her scream her foes to death - her current ult augment could work into it perfectly as well. The longer the scream, the more powerful it gets