Ghoul Combat Concerns: Are They Valid?

[Ethorin]

5 minutes ago, Mewvg2 said:

Their gas cloud is instant, as far as I can tell. The explosion is delayed, but the gas is the part most folks seem concerned about.

...ummm the gas cloud isn't there before the explosion...

[Mewvg2]

15 minutes ago, Ethorin said:

...ummm the gas cloud isn't there before the explosion...

It is on my screen, dunno what to tell ya. Bugframe?

[taiiat]

it basically just affects Players highly using Melee and have short Range Melee Weapons Equipped.

idunno like other situations that impact a lot if you're only using N Equipment exclusively - you have three Slots for a reason and you're much more capable as a Player when you fill all of them out.

[Ethorin]

20 minutes ago, Mewvg2 said:

It is on my screen, dunno what to tell ya. Bugframe?

maybe, anyway, Imma go off these forums because F*** it is too late for me to even go to sleep... S#&$.

[BlackCoMerc]

4 hours ago, Mewvg2 said:

Their gas cloud is instant, as far as I can tell. The explosion is delayed, but the gas is the part most folks seem concerned about.

Exactly this.

I am fine with the speed at which they close distance. Or the cold/toxic cloud on death, to punish not using ranged tactics.

I am NOT ok with BOTH. Not on the Plains. In tiles, sure. We have walls to cling to and bounce off there. The Plains often offers no such tactical option.

Also...no more control robbing knockdown spam and grappling hooks. It needs to stop. Especially from enemies who already close distance like Ghouls can manage.

[Drasiel]

15 hours ago, BlackCoMerc said:

So...if we take one of five Meta frames every run and the experience doesnt outright suck...then its ok? I mean, sure, I can attest that Rhino removes the tedium and Mesa outright prevents it. As well as Titania mostly avoiding it. 

But none of these frames involves actually interacting with enemies, either. 

And that is the crux of it: here we are once again, where the solution to content isnt engaging with and fighting enemies, but rather, cheesing them into obsolence with CC, or outright ignoring them entirely with the press of a button, a la Mesa's Peacemaker or Titania's flight mode. 

Just once, wouldnt it be nice to get an Event, or heck, even a well designed enemy, where battle and engagement were the point? Wouldnt it be nice not to have to rely on the same garbage CC Cheese or outright immunity to tedium type abilities just to play the game? 

If 99% of the battle is going to take place in the Arsenal Loadout screen, I am no longer interested in either playing, or supporting, this game.

Nezha, saryn, oberon, hydroid, rhino, harrow, trinity, inaros just off the top of my head can also either nullify or remove the procs. 

Uh 99% of the battle always takes place in the arsenal unless you never mod your weapons and Warframes.

[BlackCoMerc]

29 minutes ago, Drasiel said:

Nezha, saryn, oberon, hydroid, rhino, harrow, trinity, inaros just off the top of my head can also either nullify or remove the procs. 

Uh 99% of the battle always takes place in the arsenal unless you never mod your weapons and Warframes.

Again...so we have the anti Tedium group of frames, which can virtually ignore any unique abilities Enemies possess...

And then we have the suffering and misery group of frames, for whom groups of enemies turn the game into spectator mode for seconds at a time.

Are we really ok with all but NEEDING enemy power immunity to even play the game? 

Why does DE keep doing this? Make immensely powerful frames...that every key enemy, capture target and synthesis target are immune to? Make unique enemy powers (most of which are just trolling) and then a group if Frames immune to those? How is this good game design?

[StinkyPygmy]

8 hours ago, Ethorin said:

soooo

A. Play style designed for melee.

B. Using Finisher Mechanics(in this case ground finishers)

I mean OK you probably don't need Acolyte and Nightmare mods but ummmm... it's still a Play Style designed to make melee ok, it's still a lifestyle choice that is easier to switch out of than into.

 

Oh btw, not all frames actually have easy access to finisher openers(Nova anyone?).

did you read what I typed? because I said i don't normally use savage silence. banshee typically isn't considered a melee frame. I use SB mostly as an "oh S#&$" button for quick CC, not for ground finishers. Don't normally need it because I go with a good melee weapon.

Basically what you are saying is: "I refuse to adapt to the situation and am upset that i cannot just brute force my very rigid playstyle 100% of the time." The whole point of WF, like many games is adapting to the situation. it is exactly why we have access to so many frames and weapons with various builds, including rarely used niche mods and set ups.

Interestly enough, you can still brute force practically any content with melee only even as a frame or with a build typically not the best for melee. You just gotta know what you are doing. hit and run tactics work best, most frames have CC (which is why banshee works well without SS) so those two combined along with knowing how to position your self etc is key.

The point is, you can still brute force content but don't be surprised (like in this case) when its not as effective as other things because you insist on making it harder for yourself then it has to be. I'm not surprised when i have a harder time going melee only as banshee on high level content, I just do it for fun, but I know for a fact there are a lot of much more effective set ups, I'm doing that by choice for a challenge.

Edited December 29, 2017 by StinkyPygmy

[Autongnosis]

Il y a 10 heures, Ethorin a dit :

??? It's been my experience. Melee that isn't part of a play style designed around it falls off really really hard around lvl 40ish.

Uhm... I think we're playing a different game. 

Melee is the only source of scaling damage that holds up against enemy level scaling... I've done multiple lv >250 runs with melee alone, with a variety of weapons and frames before and after Condition Overload. 

You don't need to have absolute CC or be immortal/invisible for it to work. The large majority of franes can do such a thing without having either. 

 

Back to Ghouls sadly i didn't have the chance to fight them yet caus i cannot access the Plains of Eidolon due to hardware issues, but from what I've gathered they seem to be squishy as F*** and punish you for coming too close, neither of which seems too problematic to me considering Napalms and Commanders are still in the game. Ghouls look like a pleasant novelty. 

[Faulcun]

4 hours ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Again...so we have the anti Tedium group of frames, which can virtually ignore any unique abilities Enemies possess...

And then we have the suffering and misery group of frames, for whom groups of enemies turn the game into spectator mode for seconds at a time.

Are we really ok with all but NEEDING enemy power immunity to even play the game? 

Why does DE keep doing this? Make immensely powerful frames...that every key enemy, capture target and synthesis target are immune to? Make unique enemy powers (most of which are just trolling) and then a group if Frames immune to those? How is this good game design?

DE has presented the player with a challenge. Ultimately the player has two choices. As much as id hate to sound elitist here, your first choice is to simply accept the situation and get better at the game. Second choice is to cheese it with one of the above mentioned frames.

Those than can, do. Those that cant, cheese it. If one does not like the second choice, they need only to put forth a little effort and choose the first.

These enemies are not very dangerous to begin with.

[BlackCoMerc]

1 hour ago, Faulcun said:

DE has presented the player with a challenge. Ultimately the player has two choices. As much as id hate to sound elitist here, your first choice is to simply accept the situation and get better at the game. Second choice is to cheese it with one of the above mentioned frames.

Those than can, do. Those that cant, cheese it. If one does not like the second choice, they need only to put forth a little effort and choose the first.

These enemies are not very dangerous to begin with.

They aren't dangerous at all.

What they are, is tedious.

You want to challenge us? Find ways that DON'T involve robbing us of input. If you can't do that, fix your broken game.

[DiabolusUrsus]

5 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

They aren't dangerous at all.

What they are, is tedious.

You want to challenge us? Find ways that DON'T involve robbing us of input. If you can't do that, fix your broken game.

Pretty much this.

"Are they beatable" is beside the point. Players are OP, so everything is beatable. Level 100 Sortie bosses are "beatable."

But when will players start stopping to ask why they should beat them? Is it fun to crouch invisible in a corner and take potshots at an insta-gibbing Raptor with a Lanka? Is it fun to pop Iron Skin and run in circles before stopping to pop L100 Ruk's weakpoints with a Lex Prime?

IMO, not really.

The same thing applies to the Ghouls. Is it a death sentence to get tagged with a cold/toxin combo proc? Nah. Are there ways to ignore it? For sure.

But is it fun? Is it challenging? Hell no.

The only thing I ever feel when I get caught by the cloud is annoyed. Not threatened, not challenged. Just plain annoyed. Building around the clouds is just a question of if you are annoyed enough to make sacrifices elsewhere to avoid the annoyance or not.

Is anyone here actually playing this game to feel annoyed?

Warframe can do better than this, so I think for that reason alone concerns about the Ghoul clouds are valid.

Simply stacking the extra cold proc on reeks of lazy and unimaginative gameplay design that really doesn't suit the Ghouls' fantastic artistic design.

[BlackCoMerc]

5 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Pretty much this.

"Are they beatable" is beside the point. Players are OP, so everything is beatable. Level 100 Sortie bosses are "beatable."

But when will players start stopping to ask why they should beat them? Is it fun to crouch invisible in a corner and take potshots at an insta-gibbing Raptor with a Lanka? Is it fun to pop Iron Skin and run in circles before stopping to pop L100 Ruk's weakpoints with a Lex Prime?

IMO, not really.

The same thing applies to the Ghouls. Is it a death sentence to get tagged with a cold/toxin combo proc? Nah. Are there ways to ignore it? For sure.

But is it fun? Is it challenging? Hell no.

The only thing I ever feel when I get caught by the cloud is annoyed. Not threatened, not challenged. Just plain annoyed. Building around the clouds is just a question of if you are annoyed enough to make sacrifices elsewhere to avoid the annoyance or not.

Is anyone here actually playing this game to feel annoyed?

Warframe can do better than this, so I think for that reason alone concerns about the Ghoul clouds are valid.

Simply stacking the extra cold proc on reeks of lazy and unimaginative gameplay design that really doesn't suit the Ghouls' fantastic artistic design.

This.

Ghouls are great. All the procs and control robbing...not so much.

[Faulcun]

So what suggestions would you guys make that change them into something not annoying, tedious, cheesy, or simply bullet sponges?

[DiabolusUrsus]

26 minutes ago, Faulcun said:

So what suggestions would you guys make that change them into something not annoying, tedious, cheesy, or simply bullet sponges?

If we are talking sheer simplicity and minimal changes, remove cold proc from death-cloud and limit the cloud to Ghoul Expired on detonation or melee death.

The relative difficulty will not change at all; Ghouls will still be laughably easy to CC lock and shoot like fish in a barrel. What will change is the pointless annoyance of the slow from the cold proc.

Making Ghoul Auger capable of parrying player melee attacks from the front, Ghoul Rictus resistant to bullets/etc. and Ghoul Devourer capable of breaking out of CC locks faster would also help "diversify playstyles" fairly as suggested.

If we're going to demand an arbitrary degree of "challenge," then that will require more extensive changes toning down the players' god-tier CC and DPS abilities to prevent anything challenging from straying into tedium/cheese territory.

Replacing the energy system with something that works properly as a spamming limiter would be a good first step.

[Chipputer]

1 hour ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

But when will players start stopping to ask why they should beat them?

Irrelevant. Once you get all the loot you want from a boss/enem(y/ies) (often times simply a weapon or warframe) you have no reason to continue beating them unless they suddenly offer more of what you want or need. No, adding more rewards will not solve this issue. Eventually you will get everything you need and you will not have any point to continue fighting the enemies that dropped that item unless you find them fun.

At that point it's just petty arguing over what is and isn't fun to people. One person says that a ghoul dropping a toxic/cold proc on death isn't fun, others say it's an interesting mechanic that causes you to have to adapt to the situation... or just use guns/CC much in the same manner that a Nullifier forces you to focus efforts on them for a short bit of time. This forum has a tendency to praise the concept of interesting mechanics but then complain the second they're put in the game because, "something something player choice," and, "power fantasy."

[Drasiel]

8 hours ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Again...so we have the anti Tedium group of frames, which can virtually ignore any unique abilities Enemies possess...

And then we have the suffering and misery group of frames, for whom groups of enemies turn the game into spectator mode for seconds at a time.

Are we really ok with all but NEEDING enemy power immunity to even play the game? 

Why does DE keep doing this? Make immensely powerful frames...that every key enemy, capture target and synthesis target are immune to? Make unique enemy powers (most of which are just trolling) and then a group if Frames immune to those? How is this good game design?

So you have poo pooed 12 different frames now. Maybe you should tell us what the hell you consider non meta frames acceptable frames for this endeavor.

Warframe powers are kind of a key part of the game.  If you don't want to use complementary frames for the situation you are intentional giving yourself a handicap and considering the fairly large offering of complimentary frames for these enemies that you are guaranteed to face during these Bounties the issue isn't the enemy it's the Player refusing to adjust. 

[DiabolusUrsus]

3 hours ago, Chipputer said:

Irrelevant. Once you get all the loot you want from a boss/enem(y/ies) (often times simply a weapon or warframe) you have no reason to continue beating them unless they suddenly offer more of what you want or need. No, adding more rewards will not solve this issue. Eventually you will get everything you need and you will not have any point to continue fighting the enemies that dropped that item unless you find them fun.

At that point it's just petty arguing over what is and isn't fun to people. One person says that a ghoul dropping a toxic/cold proc on death isn't fun, others say it's an interesting mechanic that causes you to have to adapt to the situation... or just use guns/CC much in the same manner that a Nullifier forces you to focus efforts on them for a short bit of time. This forum has a tendency to praise the concept of interesting mechanics but then complain the second they're put in the game because, "something something player choice," and, "power fantasy."

Completely relevant.

If, as you say, there is no reason to fight enemies beyond the loot they drop... then the least DE can do is avoid making the requisite grind more arduous by implementing enemies designed to be frustrating to players. There is nothing new or "interesting" about the power-creeped death cloud of the ghouls. "Avoid the death cloud" is not some novel combat requirement; death clouds predate Damage 2.0. What's new is the control-strangling cold proc in addition to the classic toxin proc, which does absolutely nothing to change the player's choice of strategies or counter-techniques. It only increases the penalty for failing to avoid the cloud.

Though if you want to get into the subjectivity of fun...

The fact that you can have anyone claiming that a "new" death cloud with an extra proc is an "interesting mechanic that forces you to adapt to the situation" should make it painfully clear that players are so ridiculously OP and strategies are so laughably one-dimensional and unchanging that anything unconventional can be considered interesting. Our CC spam and absurd DPS has apparently made players so bored fighting enemies that they will apparently latch onto the first thing that breaks the norm without bothering to look to closely at what it is.

Seriously, let's take a closer look at the implications of the Ghoul death cloud and its "adaptive" counter-strategies. To avoid the poison/cold proc from the cloud, players can:

1. Stand back and shoot the ghoul.
2. CC the ghoul, stand back, and shoot it.
3. Kill the ghoul with AOE powers from a distance.
4. Use a melee weapon with sufficient reach to stay out of the resulting death cloud (e.g., Atterax + Primed Reach).

Do you see anything new or pattern-breaking there? Because I certainly don't. You can argue that it encourages players to vary their playstyle or what-have-you as much as you like, but the reality of the situation is that the cloud really doesn't bring anything new to the table. All it does is punish (with annoyance, even, not difficulty) players who aren't using the conventional strategies.

[Faulcun]

6 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

If we are talking sheer simplicity and minimal changes, remove cold proc from death-cloud and limit the cloud to Ghoul Expired on detonation or melee death.

The relative difficulty will not change at all; Ghouls will still be laughably easy to CC lock and shoot like fish in a barrel. What will change is the pointless annoyance of the slow from the cold proc.

Still cheesy and bullet sponges.

6 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Making Ghoul Auger capable of parrying player melee attacks from the front, Ghoul Rictus resistant to bullets/etc. and Ghoul Devourer capable of breaking out of CC locks faster would also help "diversify playstyles" fairly as suggested.

No, because now i cant spam power/gun/melee as desired, so only increasing tedium and annoyance here.

6 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

If we're going to demand an arbitrary degree of "challenge," then that will require more extensive changes toning down the players' god-tier CC and DPS abilities to prevent anything challenging from straying into tedium/cheese territory.

Good in theory, but i warn you..... it already sounds tedius and cheese just thinking about it. Better stay away from complication.

6 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Replacing the energy system with something that works properly as a spamming limiter would be a good first step.

I agree, we need complete and thorough system reworks, but i dont know about a spamming limiter.... if anything we need to increase more spam because anything other than that really just approaches more tedium, annoyance, and cheese.

I suggest something like the following. It has everything everybody is already asking for: System reworks, simplicity, spamability, no bullet sponges, and an emphasis on rewarding gameplay!

 

[DiabolusUrsus]

25 minutes ago, Faulcun said:

Still cheesy and bullet sponges.

Not any moreso than other enemies.

26 minutes ago, Faulcun said:

No, because now i cant spam power/gun/melee as desired, so only increasing tedium and annoyance here.

But blocking just melee spam is fine? It's an option, not necessity.

26 minutes ago, Faulcun said:

Good in theory, but i warn you..... it already sounds tedius and cheese just thinking about it. Better stay away from complication.

I don't see how less spamming could be less cheesy, but okay...

27 minutes ago, Faulcun said:

I suggest something like the following. It has everything everybody is already asking for: System reworks, simplicity, spamability, no bullet sponges, and an emphasis on rewarding gameplay!

 

I will watch this at a later time, but be advised that the system I have in mind is not focused on restricting spamming like say, cooldowns, but rather on building a system around regulating power use as part of the natural gameplay flow.

[IX-44]

I play Oberon, what are procs?

 

 

In all seriousness, I found that they're all pretty balanced to the extent that they just feel like a glorified Infested plug-in for the Grineer. *shrug*

For me, I found the first two missions were interesting and... maybe kinda difficult if only in the extent that it was "new content"? After that, the Ghouls lost all charm. They're a Grineer reskin of various Infested units. Thematically interesting, fun to fight in the same way everything else is fun to fight, but boring after you realize what each troop does.

I ran a melee build on my Volt as well, didn't have much of a problem there either.

[Gandergear]

On 12/28/2017 at 7:42 PM, Ethorin said:

did though, Yes, as soon as there is a way to melee at high levels that does not require very specific very rare mods. Or if the special enemy only shows up when Melee is easily competing with guns anyway

I wouldnt consider condition overload and dual stat mods as espescially hard to get, which is the best way to make a single target high dps weapon (assuming you have some base.status to work with). It is a shame we have a melee oriented enemy that... counters... melee...

Honestly its like playing a 2005 zombie killer flash game where you cant let the zombie sprites touch you while you run around with a shotgun

[(XBOX)Demon Intellect]

On 12/28/2017 at 4:01 PM, Crazymantisfondue said:

The only problem I have is toxin damage. There is not a lot you can do about it when it procs. Sure there is a lot of space but when you're dodging flamethrowers, sawblades and charge attacks, you will eventually run into one of these 100% proc chance clouds, that make you slower so you're easier to hit while actively losing health because of the toxin.

At least they don't have a lot of health.

Rolling reduces the damage fire and toxic procs do if you are in the animation when it ticks.

[BlackCoMerc]

8 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Completely relevant.

If, as you say, there is no reason to fight enemies beyond the loot they drop... then the least DE can do is avoid making the requisite grind more arduous by implementing enemies designed to be frustrating to players. There is nothing new or "interesting" about the power-creeped death cloud of the ghouls. "Avoid the death cloud" is not some novel combat requirement; death clouds predate Damage 2.0. What's new is the control-strangling cold proc in addition to the classic toxin proc, which does absolutely nothing to change the player's choice of strategies or counter-techniques. It only increases the penalty for failing to avoid the cloud.

Though if you want to get into the subjectivity of fun...

The fact that you can have anyone claiming that a "new" death cloud with an extra proc is an "interesting mechanic that forces you to adapt to the situation" should make it painfully clear that players are so ridiculously OP and strategies are so laughably one-dimensional and unchanging that anything unconventional can be considered interesting. Our CC spam and absurd DPS has apparently made players so bored fighting enemies that they will apparently latch onto the first thing that breaks the norm without bothering to look to closely at what it is.

Seriously, let's take a closer look at the implications of the Ghoul death cloud and its "adaptive" counter-strategies. To avoid the poison/cold proc from the cloud, players can:

1. Stand back and shoot the ghoul.
2. CC the ghoul, stand back, and shoot it.
3. Kill the ghoul with AOE powers from a distance.
4. Use a melee weapon with sufficient reach to stay out of the resulting death cloud (e.g., Atterax + Primed Reach).

Do you see anything new or pattern-breaking there? Because I certainly don't. You can argue that it encourages players to vary their playstyle or what-have-you as much as you like, but the reality of the situation is that the cloud really doesn't bring anything new to the table. All it does is punish (with annoyance, even, not difficulty) players who aren't using the conventional strategies.

Well said.

Like everything else DE creates, this rewards the power spam they want to prevent. Its more cheese or be cheesed combat.

[Azamagon]

Come on people, this is just too much whining.

Ghouls don't encourage close range melee, but is not 100% impossible either, at least not when you have planned even the tiniest bit for it. If one thing had to be done; Make the cloud appear after a slight delay, so you can melee them to death, then instantly hop away from the imminent danger.

On 2017-12-29 at 1:54 AM, Ezekeel666 said:

I wonder whether the people who defend ghouls countering melee builds would also be fine with mobs being added that cannot be properly fought with ranged weapons and need to be attacked in melee.

First; Ghouls aren't in any way "unproperly" fought with melee, they are just a tad more tedious if you go in with a completely brainless mindset and melee spam them like if they were a target dummy.

Second; If there were enemies that would be more EASILY countered with melee? Yeah, that'd actually be awesome! And I even have an idea for that, which even promotes using a currently un-promoted playstyle:

Heavy Gunner / Bombards / Napalms -> Take away their groundpound (and make the Bombards rockets more like the Tusk Bombards with windup, laser-warning and straight trajectory). Instead give these units heavy melee weapons that they use when you get  close to them, which they wield slowly (but powerfully, even potentially with attacks that knock you down). Improve blocking from its current garbage situation (make it more like; 100% DR with any weapon, but can only block attacks for a limitted amount of time, with a quick recovery time).

Now put all that together, and how do you optimally counter these units? Block/dodge/weave through their ranged attacks, get close, meleeblock + finisher them.

Are you still able to counter them with ranged attacks? Ofc
Is melee potentially more viable? Yes, due blocks now negating their ranged capabilities as well as their heavy melee strikes, while also opening them to finishers, which ignore their armor.

Isn't that the right way to do it?