Dev Workshop: Warframes Revisited

[--RV--Cola]

11 hours ago, [DE]Connor said:

Ember is the original damage caster frame, offering low survivability in exchange for high offense. Her ultimate, World on Fire, is unmatched in terms of widespread lethality - while many Warframes specialize in certain mission types, Ember’s specialty is “anything under level 30”. By simply bullet jumping through levels with World on Fire active, enemies become a non-factor, making Ember a ubiquitous pick across most of the Star Chart. Like a mobile Resonating Quake, this monopoly on kills can leave squadmates struggling to keep up, in an attempt to see the enemy before they melt. These changes increase lethality at higher levels, while addressing the ability’s huge range.

World on Fire will continue working similarly to how it does now, but with changing effects over time. The gradually increasing energy cost should encourage most players to toggle the ability when needed, instead of the current “set and forget” approach. Players who can afford to run the ability at max charge may need to get more up close and personal, but the increased damage should help Ember out against higher level enemies.  World on Fire is still very capable of clearing rooms and sweeping hallways, but should now be applied more deliberately!

This solves nothing, people will still use Ember just as they use now, only now they will maximize ability efficiency and range instead of just having "ok" efficiency and range.

If you don't want this ability to be used as it is used now, create a new ability for Ember instead of tweaking the current one.

[oSPoJellyz]

4 minutes ago, (Xbox One)mickeyjuiceman said:

Because it's blatantly obvious it's not a "rework," because they're just killing one thing and not doing anything else (although I've seen they've tweeted that they're going to have a look at the rest of the abilities, which is INSANE when you realise that is an admission that it hadn't occurred to them until Reddit blew up). "Rework" is being utterly abused in this conversation.

It's an extremely obvious nerf. Some like it, some don't, but let's not pretend it's a "rework," let's just name it for what it is.

If it's a nerf, then every changes on her will be on the negative side, but yet >> "the ability's energy cost and damage dealt both grow to double, while the ability radius shrinks to half" is what DE said. Double damage does not sound like a nerf to me, more like "trying" to balance it, despite the fact that I do not agree with this. Of course, the downsides are more than the upsides, but I don't see how it's a nerf until we actually see the solid recalculation of the total damage of WoF. 

Usually Ember cannot be used in any other situations than some low level exterminate/speed runs and half-assed CC for high level content (which annoys the hell out of every teammates since the enemies fell on the floor, influencing harder headshots), and now here's the potential change that "might" make her actually viable on Higher Level Content. 

So no, it is not an "extremely obvious" nerf.

[DeadMansChest]

9 minutes ago, Dequire said:

but since when was double strength "marginal"? To me that sounds a lot like twice the murder.

Not when enemy scaling is exponential. WoF has a sharp drop in damage around the 60+ levels due to the exponential scaling (especially against Grineer) so all it has at that point is CC through Firequake + range mods.

Take away the range, what are you left with?

[Rex101]

Just a another opinion on the this topic of warframe changes

[Doom_Bunny]

Quote

MAG

Polarize - Shards created by Polarize now scale based on power strength, as well as the percentage of damage done to that specific enemy.

Crush - Each stage of crush emits a shield heal from Mag. Restores shields to nearby allies per damage instance, based on the number of enemies affected.
 

Mag has seen many changes over Warframe’s history - her major rework in 2016 reinforced her role as a fragile crowd control caster, widening her usability across all factions. Although she performs well in the right hands, some of the synergies introduced in that rework did not have quite the impact we wanted. Plus as a starter frame, we want new players to feel like choosing Mag is a more viable option.

Increasing the damage of shards created by Polarize should give Mag more kill power. Additional shield restore on Crush also offers a way to passively support your team while clearing crowded rooms!

How is increasing the shards damage meant to help with overall damage output? The only ability to utilize these shards is magnetize. Magnetize can only be applied to one enemy at a time and at a distance far greater than where these shards land. A small group can be drawn into magnetize but others that pass through magnetize barely get hurt. Not to mention polarize doesn't work on the infested faction.

Healing shields while using crush helps survivability. However crushes base levels of damage and range are abysmal and shields barely block damage compared to health/armour.

Why not have crush and pull utilize the shards created by polarize? Pull the enemy and shards (would be like going through a window). Crush the shards into the enemy. It would make sense and allow the abilities to scale with this polarize upgrade.

Edited February 3, 2018 by Postal_pat

[Dequire]

2 minutes ago, DeadMansChest said:

Not when enemy scaling is exponential. WoF has a sharp drop in damage around the 60+ levels due to the exponential scaling (especially against Grineer) so all it has at that point is CC through Firequake + range mods.

Take away the range, what are you left with?

Alright, that's a fair point. She could use something to deal with the scaling.

[FoxFX]

I have a few questions I wanted to address pertaining to all the Warframe Changes mentioned in the Dev Workshop:

Will ZEPHYR'S Tail Wind be affected by Melee/Parkour Mods?

 

Are there any suggestions being made to change Ember's passive? Much like Vauban's passive, Ember's passive does not seem as convenient as most of the other Warframe's passive which has a more overall purpose for any content.

 

For a more defensive effect and adding to Banshee's powers to control sound, do you think that an ability called Concussion could be made which allows gunfire from Banshee to have their firing sound amplified so much that it deafens enemy hearing?

 

That being asked, I feel there is an opportunity for Ember's 1-3 abilities to be reworked as well and to have Fire Blast play a special role in Ember's playstyle.

 

[PsiWarp]

I like the hovering. It helps me get my bearings and perch in midair for a momentary vantage point/sniper nest when I need it. Otherwise I'd just tap 1 to dart from place to place like I've always done with Tail Wind, which will be further enhanced by reduced energy cost to cast some abilities while in the air.

Turbulence has undergone so many iterations now that it feels like it is in a good place. I've only recently brought Zephyr out of the closet but I've noticed that it actually redirects bullets rather than reduce enemy accuracy as it did on release. Hopefully this makes it viable for aerial combat, assuming that the deflection field is spherical rather than cylindrical (somebody in the know correct me if I'm wrong). It just feels like I never get hit by projectiles or bullets no matter if I'm grounded or flying, as long as 3 is on.

[xXHobbitXx]

1 minute ago, --RV--Cola said:

This solves nothing, people will still use Ember just as they use now, only now they will maximize ability efficiency and range instead of just having "ok" efficiency and range.

If you don't want this ability to be used as it is used now, create a new ability for Ember instead of tweaking the current one.

i completely agree, with my range build on ember it wont change anything in low level -50 level enemies, will have finished mission before energy runs out and will still kill everything in sight before anyone else can even get to them, if i happen to be running out of energy, turn off for 10 seconds turn back on, with zenurik that basically fills my energy again, and back to killing everything and watching noobs cry ember is killing everything...so whats changed? nothing in reality unless its an extended survival or defense

[(PSN)Boomstickman98]

14 minutes ago, Dequire said:

Maybe they could do with a little more touching up for her survivability wise, but since when was double strength "marginal"? To me that sounds a lot like twice the murder.

Notice how i said "possibly", not "is". When it comes to something like determining what abilities are useful, you need to think about comparing the pros and the cons. Not only does it now get reduced up to half-range,but also requires two times energy for essentially less coverage. As such, I believe that the strength bonus is marginal instead of substantial.

[Fairwing]

These changes sound awful and will doom ember to irrelevance unless her other abilities are reworked.  Ember scales terribly with difficult content.  Her niche was doing low to mid level quests as quickly as possible. 

 

How did the ash "fix" of bladestorm work out?  Trying to remember the last time I was in group with someone playing ash.

[Aeromancer]

A better way to handle the Ember change would be to have World on Fire not be affected by the range decrease or damage/energy drain increase of the "rework" if the Firequake augment is equipped, but remove the damaging capability from the ability.  If you're going to use Firequake on Ember then you're most likely using overextended also and don't care about the damage from WoF, you just want the CC that the augment provide for that survivability that benefits yourself AND your squad.  (Sure you can roll, as suggested on the dev workshop stream.  But that isn't going to stop the enemies from shooting at you and chip away at your shields and health until you eventually get downed in high level sortie missions.)

 

This way the people who want to use ember's WoF for CC with the augment can still use it with no nerfs to survivability and the players who cry about trash enemies dying in low level missions before they can get to them can have a chance to kill said enemies.

 

Those who want to use WoF for damage (by NOT using the augment) can use it and enjoy the proposed "rework" and the reduced survivability that comes with it.

[GinKenshin]

Just wanna talk about the ash's BS...the change is awesome but the main problem isn't touched, which is the marking mechanic. it's just not fun, jiggling your mouse all over to kill enemies. so here's a suggestion: 

GET SOME SYNERGY! enemies affected by his shurakin and smoke bomb will have 1 mark added to them....this will make the marking mechanic to be separate than his 4th and more of a general mechanic to the frame itself, like atlas's rumble....ofc the problem is that high range builds will rule, since you just have to cast his bomb, enemies will be marked over a large range and you'll kill everything, but a smaller range for the marking will do

also you can make shurakin act like Genji's ability from OW, where you shoot multiple shurakins instead of just 1, this will help the marking mechanic even further 

[(XBOX)DevilishSix]

8 hours ago, Glavenusaur said:

In all honesty, i think what they're doing is right, ember definitely needs a nerf with the range of WOF, but the strength of the ability needs a buff as it's practically ueless at anything above level 40.

Couldn't disagree more...the WOF CC range is all that keeps her weaka** alive.  I don't see them upping her armor and health.  So these are nerfs and she will be trash and will not be used.  Is that what they want.  I think DE should put a notice disclaimer on the Unvaulting Ember Pack stating she is getting a nerf that way new unsuspecting players aren't being ripped off.  Think they will do that.

[xXHobbitXx]

1 minute ago, (PS4)Boomstickman98 said:

Notice how i said "possibly", not "is". When it comes to something like determining what abilities are useful, you need to think about comparing the pros and the cons. Not only does it now get reduced up to half-range,but also requires two times energy for essentially less coverage. As such, I believe that the strength bonus is marginal instead of substantial.

so lets look at this from a build point of view, my favourite ember build is as follows

88 170 190 140 stats, with firequake,growing power and energy conversion included in build, so i get strength of 140, 175(growing power only),210(energy conversion only), or 245 strength with both activated on cast, 225 energy with 1 energy per second burn.

Now with new changes, my strength gets doubled, but range is halved, so my range becomes 95% range, this is fine with firequake as they get knocked over at almost normal range(15m), cost gets doubled, so thats 2 burn per second, still have 110 seconds of usage before running out of energy, presuming you pick up 0 orbs that is :)

So looking at that and every exterminate or usual mission i run with ember...hmm, well makes little difference, energy wont run out, damage output doubles and range is halved, so in conclusion, i kill everything dont run out of energy and range is inconsequential due to firequake or added damage means they die even easier, well done DE for changing nothing in overall outcome :)

[Sormaran]

What about firequake? This completely kills the CC side of Ember's ult, when you dont focus on damage, and use ult as CC on any lvl mission. And with max range, therefore its damage is under 150%, some even go under 100%. With range nerf firequake augment is completely dead, outside of it - whatever, just take equinox and do the same thing.

Edited February 3, 2018 by Sormaran

[Tesseract7777]

The only truly hard nerf I see is Chroma, and I think anyone who was smart saw it coming long ago. 

 

People could basically one-shot their biggest boss. Before they turned a blind eye because the biggest boss was like... Lephantis maybe, lol. And it just didn't matter. Now with their big flagship boss their reputation is on the line more. They cannot allow stuff oneshot giant monsters that are supposed to take some teamwork. Oh well, fun while it lasted, etc. 

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

2 hours ago, Caelward said:

Please don't bother giving me an ability that'll lock me in one spot mid air for anything to shoot. I don't have to sit still with an archwing for more than a moment to know why that's a bad idea. I was disappointed to see this come up in the workshop review and I don't want to see it make it into the game.

If you wanted to use that charging mechanic, then launch me through the air via the tailwind mega jump, and let me charge up again to launch myself further, perhaps in the direction I'm facing. You know, like a bird. One who uses wind to keep herself airborne. I can either spend a bit of time in the air shooting things, or I can use some of that airborne time by charging the ability to fly further. Hey look, we've got ourselves a trade-off of offense vs movement/defense. Zephyr is about wind and flying. She is about movement. When she stops moving, she dies. This is even more painful when you realize that turbulence is the most vulnerable to weapons fire from underneath. It's the constant travel that keeps a player safe.

But please don't make me sit in one spot like a suspended bullet magnet. I have always played her for the rush and the sheer joy of moving. It was this joy that brought me back into the game during movement 1.0 when she was released. It is the joy of moving around with Zephyr which has given me the most satisfaction in this game. I have never wanted to hang in the air like a light fixture from a ceiling that draws everyone's attention.

I'm trying to let the changes sink in a bit more before I give some feedback but it's coming. I personally don't see the advantage of this hover besides "easy" safe explosive weapon vantage points. Other than that it seems to serve no purpose. Going to sleep on it and try to think about all the times I wished Zephyr could hover, and throw wind slices.

[Cornelius.EE]

While I completely agree with the motivation behind the WoF rework, I think handling it this way is a very bad idea. Here is why:

15 hours ago, [DE]Connor said:

These changes increase lethality at higher levels

15 hours ago, [DE]Connor said:

but the increased damage should help Ember out against higher level enemies

No they won't. Enemy health and armor scaling is faster than linear. Doubling ability damage will do very little. WoF already has utility at high levels via CC by the almost guaranteed heat procs on high strength builds. And by the way, the base ability is actually more useful CC than the augment. Knocked-down enemies are harder to head-shot and take longer to kill with guns. Reducing WoF range certainly helps reduce it's OPness at levels below 50 (which I'm fine with), but is a serious nerf to its utility at levels above 80.

 

15 hours ago, [DE]Connor said:

the ability’s energy cost and damage dealt both grow to double

This hurts Ember at high levels. Let me give you a description of me running Ember with teammates at levels 100+:

I'm running at 244% strength (or more with some builds) with Flash Accelerant and Fireball Frenzy. The team has 4xCP and running mainly Viral or Viral + Heat builds.
With this setup, Flash Accelerant gives approximately 4x effective damage buff on weapons with base physical damage (for example, specifically 3.993x on a Lex Prime with Deep Freeze R5, Pathogen Rounds R5, Primed Heated Charge R8; PM me if you need test details). Add Fireball Frenzy to the mix and this becomes a buff of about 7x (again PM if you need details).
I run the mission trying to keep both buffs applied to teammates and the Accelerant debuff applied to groups of enemies. Additionally, Accelerant can be used to stun-lock enemies in an emergency. Given the high power strength and constant casting, I already cannot afford to keep WoF running all the time. It's used mainly in difficult spots for added CC. Certainly not for its damage, which at these levels is laughable. WoF at high levels is not "set and forget" unless you're running the augment and low power strength, but this makes you useless to the team in terms of DPS, and any dedicated CC warframe would be doing a better job than you anyway. Playing this way with Ember is certainly not passive or lazy and definitely not game-ruining for teammates. Ember might not be the first choice for sortie-and-beyond type content, but people can make her work. She can provide a team DPS boost comparable to Octavia's (although working much harder for it) while bringing more CC to the table than most damage-buffing frames.

WoF is only a problem at low levels, so any nerf to low level-utility needs to leave high-level utility alone. Reducing range and increasing energy cost cuts WoF effectiveness at both low levels and high levels, while even a 10x ability damage buff would do nothing good at high levels to compensate for this.

My suggestion:

Leave range alone. Leave energy alone. Make damage fall off with range.
This will be almost identical to the proposed changes at low levels: Ember can no longer passively murder far-away enemies before we can even see them. However, this leaves WoF in the same spot as before at high levels (80+) because ability damage is irrelevant there.

If you do not want to do this, at least buff WoF's status chance or something else that scales with levels.

I'm sorry for being harsh, but I feel like whoever proposed these changes has only seen Ember used for low-level speed runs and has no idea of how to make her work (or buff her to work) for higher levels.

 

 

Edited February 3, 2018 by Cornelius.EE

[Soketsu]

I remember when the game was not about about killing thing but just completing the mission. I remember when people in team act as one, some support, some dps, just to complete the mission, completing our objective (looting these, surviving to that...)

This days seems to be over and forgotten .

Edited February 3, 2018 by Soketsu

[IceColdHawk]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb (PS4)RenovaKunumaru:

I'm trying to let the changes sink in a bit more before I give some feedback but it's coming. I personally don't see the advantage of this hover besides "easy" safe explosive weapon vantage points. Other than that it seems to serve no purpose. Going to sleep on it and try to think about all the times I wished Zephyr could hover, and throw wind slices.

Her weakness is melee fighters. Turbulence on and hovering in the air pretty much removes that weakness. Can be pretty cool in a survival or interception.

[kgabor]

4 hours ago, (PS4)sinner_bh said:

With Ivara the ignis breaks her stealth

It doesn't if you use it with a Hush mod.

[Sormaran]

4 minutes ago, Cornelius.EE said:

 

I'm sorry for being harsh, but I feel like whoever proposed these changes has only seen Ember used for low-level speed runs and has no idea of how to make her work (or buff her to work) for higher levels.

As in most games, most loud opinion is usually one that considered when it comes to balancing. Which is basically confirmed with range nerf, that completely disregards any utility use of the ability.

[Cornelius.EE]

1 minute ago, Sormaran said:

As in most games, most loud opinion is usually one that considered when it comes to balancing. Which is basically confirmed with range nerf, that completely disregards any utility use of the ability.

Thank you!

[fatpig84]

35 minutes ago, oSPoJellyz said:

If it's a nerf, then every changes on her will be on the negative side, but yet >> "the ability's energy cost and damage dealt both grow to double, while the ability radius shrinks to half" is what DE said. Double damage does not sound like a nerf to me, more like "trying" to balance it, despite the fact that I do not agree with this. Of course, the downsides are more than the upsides, but I don't see how it's a nerf until we actually see the solid recalculation of the total damage of WoF. 

Usually Ember cannot be used in any other situations than some low level exterminate/speed runs and half-assed CC for high level content (which annoys the hell out of every teammates since the enemies fell on the floor, influencing harder headshots), and now here's the potential change that "might" make her actually viable on Higher Level Content. 

So no, it is not an "extremely obvious" nerf.

 

Actually it is is nerf. Overextended Embers already deal pitiful amount of damage for the sole purpose of using Firequake.
Reducing the range of WOF, directly affects how Firequake works and WOF only affects 3 targets at once.
So to get the desired CC effect, CC Embers must fight even at closer ranges than before. 

And I dunno how is the damage buff calculated but my 250% power range Ember WOF does only 280 dmg.
Doubling it isn't going to hurt sortie level mooks, in fact this only serves to nerf a single build. 
Honestly just increasing the energy drain is enough, range doesn't even need to be touched at all.

So either DE re-works firequake accordingly or give Ember some of her tankiness back.
*hint hint bring back Overheat*

Edited February 3, 2018 by fatpig84