Dev Workshop: Warframes Revisited

[LuckyCharm]

>.> and increase the range. How're you supposed to buff your team if its only ranged at 12.5m

[MunsuLight]

il y a 25 minutes, Sasuda a dit :

Er, giving a flat increase isn't scaling for a few reasons. That's really what the damage boost is, a flat double. Her damage scales over the course of a few seconds but then caps at the flat limit.

Full explanation of why not scaling better for high level play in the spoiler:

  Révéler le contenu masqué

As far as scaling better for high level play, actually she very much sounds like she scales worse. As damage increases energy drain and range are penalized equally. But not actually because as someone pointed out a radius decrease of half cuts area by much more than half. So her ability to damage has greatly decreased overall. Very minimally better vs close range targets, but in those scenarios you'd rather use fireballs or weapons (which can scale way higher) anyway. Ember's kit is even more redundant like this you'd be doing more damage stacking fireballs or fireblasts. Ember's specialty is really more oriented to cleaning weak mobs with WoF. At low levels with powerful Embers all mobs are weak (I'll make a separate post addressing high and low level stuff).

At high level play Ember still isn't putting any significant damage out with WOF, so in order to make WOF useful players make use of Firequake. Firequake losing range is a huge nerf, losing energy efficiency is even worse. But again Ember has a bit of a redundant kit so players will favor Fire Blast and Accelerant and high efficiency, decent damage, and low duration builds at high levels (even more so). So far the changes really seem to be nerfing Ember at high levels and scaling worse.

The counter point is that it's not quite flat double because accelerant, but it still would be a flat double although significantly higher cap. However again this has been nerfed due to the energy doubling. Big loss in energy available for accelerant. And Range stacks negatively here too, even if you can kill close range faster. The only energy mitigation is energy orbs, since Ember has lost the ability to passively finish off enemies at a distance she loses out on energy orb drops as well and she's more likely to pick up orbs while being close to full and not absorbing the full 25 energy from them. The energy loss and drop in accelerant is really the biggest reason this will scale worse, Ember's largest damage source isn't WOF it's accelerant

Of course mobility will help it not be completely affected by range but I think there's a lot going against Ember here and things aren't synergizing great. Doing the first 5 minutes of Mot also isn't really high level at all. High level is going to be over 20 minutes at least, enough for all drop rotations. But even then that's pretty basic. 40 min mark is the more appropriate high level margin. (yes there is higher but 40 is in the realm of reasonable amount of play. Most people don't have hours to spend on 1 mission. 40 min a day is still quite a bit)

 

So what are my suggestions to address the problems here?

1. Players being unable to keep up with Ember. This boils down to lobby/matchmaking problems and the dated recruit chat:
     Masquer le contenu

   Not really an Ember problem if we're honest. I can usually out pace Ember's with full tilt WOF even on low levels. Even with setups not optimized for clearing low level content. It's not easy, but definitely possible. Embers who still kill before me are very active and are good players. And that's the problem, when good players are matched with players who haven't learned to be faster than WOF. WOF is more of a scapegoat because players don't want to admit that someone is playing effectively (movement is key to making an Ember actually useful). So I think this boils down to lobby/matchmaking problems and the dated recruit chat. (I'll

Your first point is what I agree the most with.. I dont normally pub a lot.. But there was a time , as an Ember, that a Mirage Hall of Malevolance build with Ignis Wraith  completely outspaced me.. and People were complaining about her this game, except me which was saying and asking how many formas did she put in her Ignis. (we were at similar MR this time) If the matchmaking could be with similar MR, it would solve a part of the problem I believe so since when you get higher and higher on MR, you want to run lower level missions more and more efficiently..  When I play with some streamers (most of them are high mr), you are just going as fast as you can because you want to run more missions with them to have more rewards..  

Sure i can understand that it breaks the new player experience that a frame can do that.. but it's not like a Equinox,., maiming strike Scoliac/Atterax  Full Speed Rhino or Inaros (or whatever other tanky frames) , Beam Weapon Mirage and whatever people use to be ultra fast still kill new players experience..  

I do agree with everything you said.. (the rest of it )

And If we talk about trivializing lower level content, what about max Range Rhino (200%+ with decent strength efficiency and duration) who spam his stomp non stop and kill thing in a 50 m radius..  in a mobile defense or defense...   It makes people not using their guns right ? I just don't understand the thing about trivializing lower level content with some frames..  The problem is you can do it with a lot of frames.. Nitpicking on only ember seems  silly.. And i'm not a Ember main.. I mostly play Inaros, Valkyr and other tanky frames (except octavia which i find really fun)

 

Edited February 3, 2018 by MunsuLight
Things to add

[Sasuda]

13 hours ago, [DE]Connor said:

use Teleport on a marked target after activating Bladestorm to join in on the stabbing fun.

Well it could be better yet if players had some level of actual influence on the cutscene. Have teleport jump to unmarked targets (or still living marked ones) and use quick melee to perform the animations. Players now have input on the speed, duration, damage, selected target, and are incentivized to master reactions to ongoing gameplay. Rather than just watching Bladestorm do things player's actually participate.

Few other things Ash could use:

Spoiler

 

1. Differentiate Smoke Bomb from invisibility, many players have had a number of suggestions. Most utilize making the smoke more important, through blinds, increasing evasion, adding marks, increasing stuns, there's a number of things it could do beyond being invisible and being required to make Bladestorm not insane high energy costs.
2. Make shuriken have a couple more shurikens, or do more without augment, or have augment built in, or mark Bladestorm targets. Maybe reduce costs of multiple casts within a short 2-4 second window (like lots of 1sts could use, and a bunch have, doesn't need to combo or anything. Though that's another option to make default shurikens better)
3. Make marking actually interesting and more practical. Whether through ability synergy, a free radius of marks on activation, or not wiggling for 3 marks. Have marked targets be homed in with shurikens. Have smoked out marks take more damage/be attacked by a clone before hitting 4 again.

 

 

Edited February 3, 2018 by Sasuda
formatting got weird

[Averath]

1 minute ago, LuckyCharm said:

>.> and increase the range. How're you supposed to buff your team if its only ranged at 12.5m

Either change the range to affinity range, or rework the augment and make all buffs sticky like every other buff in the game. So that short range doesn't matter as much.

[Alicecyz]

So disappointing!

About Banshee and Ember!Especially Banshee!

Just can't understand this change!Although Banshee's skill 4 is powerful,but she can't move,it will only be used in defence,it doesn't break the balance of the game.Infact,many players enjoy this skill!

This change will cause many players don't want to use Banshee any more,just like Ash in this edition!

And this will let me feel it's a waste to buy Eidolon Lens and skin for Banshee and Ember!I just bought them not long time ago!

Bad idea!

[WhiteMarker]

Why should it be recastable?
Both skills are really strong. Making them recastable would make them even stronger?
And why buffs to duration and stuff? Chromas skills are acutally balanced. If you want them to last really long, you use Narrow Minded, sacrificing range. If you want more range, you don't use Narrow Minded.
That's some fine balance. We need that for even more skills.

[Sasuda]

1 minute ago, MunsuLight said:

matchmaking could be with similar MR

Tip of the matchmaking iceburg and yet still very effective, I gotta find some of my old discussions on the subject to link here about it. But just think of most multiplayer games lobbies (any multiplayer FPS, MOBA, action game), even basic ones have more options with helping you get to play with like-minded players while remaining very quick to just jump in without requiring to think twice. There's so much room for potential improvement.

[Prince-of-Space]

10 minutes ago, (PS4)godlysparta said:

Problem is that the abilities that you mentioned come with actually useful abilities along with them. Excalibur has Exalted Blade. Volt has his Shield. Ember? She has nothing that can make her late game anymore. She needs a complete buff to her other abilities or else Ember might fall very low on the player base. Why can’t she be good for late game content? The developers expect us to do it so why make a single frame incapable? I spent a lot of time making her good so shouldn’t I be compensated for my time and Forma spent?

I'm not here to argue about how good or bad Ember is or was. That's not the purpose of this thread. If you want to *@##$ and complain, there are many, many other threads to do that with. 

[nickzqz]

most dispointed on Banshee nerf.

I admit her skill4 is about boring,but why not?Players just need it especially after hours fighting at the Plains,players would feel tired sometime and need something boring to do instead!Otherwise they will click exit then play other boring game!

On the other hand,when banshee skill4 is activated,she cannot move,so banshee is only good at defence mission,can you see players use banshee at other missions?

I doubt players will use banshee after this change,and I dont think this is a good change,seriously.

[demminik]

Instead of reworking insane enemies scaling and attempting to get rid of abilities spamming (by adding simple cooldowns or something like that) you are leaving mediocre warframes where they are and adding more ultimate power to one of the already best warframes. Good job DE! Awful!

[DroopingPuppy]

The supposed change is simply pointless. It just make Ember return to the old times - you need to cast it periodically and can't do anything else. Because the range is reduced over time, we need to recast it for each 5~7sec or it doesn't hits anything. Yes, you need to do EACH 5~7 sec, all the times when using Ember.

I wonder that they have no lesson for old annoying Ember mechanism and Nekros Desecrate that need to cast each times to use and make Nekros no more than a Desecrate bot.

[(PSN)TertulSee]

Just now, Prince-of-Space said:

I'm not here to argue about how good or bad Ember is or was. That's not the purpose of this thread. If you want to *@##$ and complain, there are many, many other threads to do that with. 

Well, argue or not, there will be more people coming in to argue eventually. Although, Mag only needed more energy for me. I think Mag is much better now but I think she needs a buff cosmetically with her Prime. That helmet is just too scary for me.

[visiblenoise]

I recently tried to play Ember without Stretch (because I was trying different configurations but haven't upgraded Ember), and it made a rather significant difference in a bad way.  Was excited to farm for Ember Prime soon, but this proposed change is quite the damper.

[(PSN)TertulSee]

10 hours ago, Stoner said:

She's not the best at endgame but is extremely good for everything else. Sometimes I get the feeling people don't even try her out, just whine on the forums because "boohoo, shes not killing lvl 150 bombard in one shot". Her Crush could be better thats for sure though. Would love to get a Discharge type of rework. 

That’s what you think :). I liked Mag’s abilities but the only reason I don’t use her a lot is because her Prime Helmet. It’s nightmare fuel. The Energy pool is the only thing that kept me from turning my nightmares into a reality.

[Averath]

Just now, WhiteMarker said:

Why should it be recastable?
Both skills are really strong. Making them recastable would make them even stronger?
And why buffs to duration and stuff? Chromas skills are acutally balanced. If you want them to last really long, you use Narrow Minded, sacrificing range. If you want more range, you don't use Narrow Minded.
That's some fine balance. We need that for even more skills.

It should be recastable because it takes a lot of work to get it to the point where it's powerful. Very few other frames have to work that hard just to get their buffs going. Vex Armor relies heavily on self damage, and being forced to stop what you're doing and inflict self damage again every time the buff expires is disruptive to the flow of the game. In addition, recasting to it's full duration rewards skilled play because it rewards you for paying attention. You don't just cast it to increase the duration. You cast it again to refresh the base duration. So you can't spam it.

Also people fail to realize just how hard these nerfs are going to hit Chroma. His durability is going to tank with these changes, and his damage is going to tank as well. Sure it'll still hit hard, but it's going to be nowhere near where it used to be.

Finally, range should work for damage abilities, not buffing abilities. Trinity and Harrow are good at this with their buffs relying on Affinity Range. It's really easy to tell who is going to receive your buff and who isn't. Most, if not all buffs should just use Affinity Range. Why? Because that means that no matter what build you're using, you're still going to help your team. Let me repeat, you will never hurt your team utility just because you're using a different build. A build should dictate the way you play, not how useful you are to your team. As it is most builds take only damage/CC abilities into consideration when building for bonus or negative range. Buffs are just never a consideration unless you're a buffing/support frame. And those frames were changed to Affinity Range.

[Autongnosis]

Sonce the Dev Workshop is out, i thoight i'd collect and share some of my own QoL/mild changes wishlist. 

- Banshee: most of her skills could use an animation pass (no lower body lock, maybe sonic boom could be a 1-handed cast even). 

- Excalibur: Slash Dash could really use a pass on its targeting capabilities (i personally would just make a cone AoE tbh). Also, it would be really nice to have it work in a combo like Rhino's Charge or Atlas' Landslide. 

- Nova: i would love for her teleport to work a lil bit different as in she would do the cast animation and then directly teleport herself, spawning the "door" where she was. Maybe at a reduced range. Maybe keep the original funcionality as a hold 3 cast? 

- Trinity: her kit really warrants an animation pass like Mag's did. Her skills should interrupt you way less than they do now. 

- Volt: shock still periodically bugs out and doesn't stun the enemy you aimed at. Also, there imo should be a way to directly place an electric shield either on the ground or as a riot shield. IE tap ground hold riot mode. And having the riot shield up shouldn't prevent you from casting more shields. 

What do you guys think? 

Edited February 3, 2018 by Autongnosis

[MunsuLight]

il y a 4 minutes, Sasuda a dit :

Tip of the matchmaking iceburg and yet still very effective, I gotta find some of my old discussions on the subject to link here about it. But just think of most multiplayer games lobbies (any multiplayer FPS, MOBA, action game), even basic ones have more options with helping you get to play with like-minded players while remaining very quick to just jump in without requiring to think twice. There's so much room for potential improvement.

Just look most "competitive" games.. There are some ranking.. Why having MR if it has no other purposes beside some weapons restrictions, some riven restriction etc.. 

Sure, it could make the "pit" (sorry not english) between newer and veterans players more large..  but there will never be competition in warframe.. At least use, the MR for a thing like matchmaking

[Zorah.Magdaros]

Because of a bunch of "Try Hard" who can't just farm focus at a slow pace, I will not be able to 
play for 5 hours or more in Mote with my Chroma without getting killed in one shot.
This is a @(*()$ injustice! 
I no longer received any kind of reward for spending so much time on a mission
and now I will not even be able to have the pleasure of spending that time on a mission while facing the enemies.
Just an Ivara now to be able to spend that time in survival.

Edited February 3, 2018 by -BRM-MetalGarurumonX

[Raphaello]

Thanks for this lovely topic and all the hard work the team has put in! As a long standing player I have mixed feelings over some of these, however I can ultimately only conclude that I'm looking forward to all of them. I feel that these changes are a promising improvement, even if I will want to respec a little bit. The variety this will encourage is something I'm enthusiastically looking forward to.

[ThymeL0rd]

Ember

I see a few comments towards Ember, and a couple of unhappy Tenno-

I would question what DE's intention is for Ember?

In that, are they trying to run her as a damage dealer or a CC? Obviously how they currently want her is as a damage dealer, and I feel this is where a lot of the anger stems from; her current set up is great for CC (especially with firequake) but not a very high damage dealer.

Issue is, long run at Sortie level missions, a damage dealer still needs to be able to kill, albeit with a little more effort involved.

I would therefore agree with those who would say she needs more work if DE wants Ember to be a damage dealer, as this change does not seem to help an awful lot.

 

In regards to her CC ability, perhaps something akin to having WOF's percentage raising with distance moved as opposed to over time? This would enable Ember to remain CC capable on defesne style missions if she wishes but for a more active player damage would increase.

 

TL;DR The flat change to WOF does not seem like the wisest way to make Ember a better damage dealing frame, IMO.

[kyori]

2 hours ago, jiminatorx said:

This is the ember problem in a nutshell. See what happens when energy hits 0 and firequake turns off:

 

 

Perhaps DE should buff her health and shield.Let's see what happens in the final decision.

@[DE]Connor @[DE]Rebecca You guys intended this to be more for endgame but don't forget that high level missions usually don't drop enough energy orbs fast enough for Ember to sustain her survival kit WoF.

[DreamsmithJane]

Rather than being an unfortunate price to pay for the damage boost, the decreased range on long channels was an equally important part of the change. Being able to kill enemies within 42 meters just by walking around is disruptive. And yes, that's with all available +range mods. That's the problem. Being able to mod for 280% range naturally means that 100% range is going to feel a bit lacking in the worst case scenario.

The idea here is twofold. One, if you want to maintain a high range, you're going to need to reset it, so not only do you have to pay attention, but you're going to burn more energy flipping the toggle. I believe the expectation is that you'll decide it's not worth doing that constantly. Two, at full channel, it does double the damage in a quarter of the area, meaning it scales much, much better when used against enemies in your immediate vicinity, and is much better at dealing with the most apparent threats.

Also remember that even double the channeling cost is half of what Banshee normally pays for Sound Quake. So that part is not really anything to sweat, especially when you're also killing faster.

[Kayll]

5 minutes ago, Averath said:

...being forced to stop what you're doing and inflict self damage again every time the buff expires is disruptive to the flow of the game...

I mean I feel like that is a problem in itself, nothing to do with having to recast the ability.
That's probably not how the ability was suppose to be used, leave the self flagellation to Harrow.

Vex is a pretty strong ability, I think it would be quite silly for him to build it up once and then keep it up the entirety of the mission without it reseting.
 

[Aleksi134]

Just now, Kayll said:

I mean I feel like that is a problem in itself, nothing to do with having to recast the ability.
That's probably not how the ability was suppose to be used, leave the self flagellation to Harrow.

Vex is a pretty strong ability, I think it would be quite silly for him to build it up once and then keep it up the entirety of the mission without it reseting.
 

Well the problem isnt per say in low level missions but once we get to sortie 2-3 levels then he will get instakilled while trying to get his buffs up.

[King_drex666]

1 hour ago, (Xbox One)Onyx Guarrd said:

So, can someone tell me which frames got nerfed this time so I can shelf them now before changes come to console?

Banshee quake augment 

Chroma vex math

Ember