why not universal vacuum

[Blade_Wolf_16]

Il y a 4 heures, -Temp0- a dit :

One simple question.

Why the *** would you.

It's like asking why use washing machines why can't you just wash your junk old fashioned way, why use a toilet paper over a leaf or some newspaper and why use cars when you can just walk. If everyone thought like you there woudl be no progress at all, ever. I don't see a single reason why I should play a game like it's still early 1990s and settle for this. Picking all the numerous trash from the floor is uninteresting, time consuming annoying and boring. Especially when you have 4 people running around up to 1000 meters in all directions and just wandering around killing mobs. That's why no sane person wants to do so.

That's all not to mention the actual *amount* of loot in Warframe and the fact that it gets stuck in some uranus quite often, some like Eidolon cores and now arcanes can get suspended in the air, reactant used to gwt stuck on the ceiling and fall under the floor, same with boosters in raids. It is virtually, literally impossible to collect without vacuum. And those that you can - you have to pick it one by one, one by one, one by one like some caveman. All that solely because someone's in DE is stubborn like a 4 years old. And no other reason.

If you have nothing better to do than collect every single ****. The amount of resource you need for everything in warfarme is too high to even consider avoiding resource drops unless it's some nano spores that everyone have millions of or salvage. People who can afford to do so are those that been playing for more than a year and farmed and stockpiled most of resources. But even if you do that there's still energy orbs and health orbs and things like eidolon cores and arcanes and boosters and life support. It doesn't end on on resources alone. So don't even begin to talk about "efficiency".

Saying that it's impossible to grab all the loot is just nonsense. Who gives a crap if you missed one Orokin Cell out of 15? Who cares if you missed an health orb?

You know how precepts work, right? The top left has highest priority, the bottom right is last. Just do the same thing with the loot by using the two eyes our bacterial ancestors developped for us and take a look at what's lying on the ground. Need energy? Go get energy orbs, they're pretty easy to spot from afar. Farming Argon? Look for the distinct shape of the ressource and its green light effect. If you have millions of nano spores, just don't give a crap about it and go find something usefull. 

I say this because it's possible to do just fine without Vaccum, unlike you stated. For the same reason that I don't need Zenurik's energy regen for everything, I don't need to get all the loot via Vacuum in every missions. Like I said, I prefer Kavats for the nice buffs they can give, which can be a lot more usefull than a Nekros/Hydroid Squad when farming ressources like Argon. I've done many Taranis runs and ended up with 2-5 Argon whie my team had nothing, just because my Kavat gave me a random rare ressource which was sometimes doubled by its other buff. 

Oh, and if some loot get stuck in the ceiling or whatever, as you say, you can just bullet jump and the hitbox should do the rest. It's so rare that I don't see why you use this as an argument, but at least I can tell you for sure that Vacuum isn't the only thing that can help in this kind of situation. Sure, it doesn't always work, but sometimes it does. Besides, would you really complain about one Orokin Cell/Neurode/whatever getting stuck when you can still get many more during the same mission and those after?

Also, about that "Picking all the numerous trash from the floor is uninteresting, time consuming annoying and boring. Especially when you have 4 people running around up to 1000 meters in all directions and just wandering around killing mobs. That's why no sane person wants to do so." , I just want to tell you that if your team split up, it's not the loot's fault. Your teammates are too far from each other? Ask them to regroup. That's it. Otherwise, you'll end up running around anyway, Vacuum or not. 

 

So, in short, here's my answer to your question:

I prefer Kavats over Sentinels because, imo, they're way more effective. Kavats can strip armor in one hit and give you very usefull buffs, as well as being a lot more resistant and revivable as much as you want, while Sentinels are mainly used for their Vaccums to grab the loot, loot that I can already grab by myself, and things like Ammo Case (useless when using weapons with good ammo economy), HP/Shield regen and things like Shade's Invisibility (meh) or Helios' scanning precept. 

[RayxAyanami]

There will be no need to use Sentinels if Universal vacuum is implemented. You can try and give niche reasons like "Helios scans", "Carrier converts Ammo" or "Taxon gives shields", but In reality, Kavats and kubrows are far superior as companions.

Let's just leave it as it is.

[vvhorus]

Change the Vacuum mod from "Sentinels" to "Companions." Problem solved. Any player who wants to use it, can. Whoever doesn't want to, won't. But at least we could have the choice. I'd love to use my pets more often, but for me, the vacuum feature of sentinels simply outweigh any possible benefit of using pets. It's too bad, because every time I breed a new pet, I know it will only be MR fodder...

[Ethorin]

3 hours ago, Blade_Wolf_16 said:

Saying that it's impossible to grab all the loot is just nonsense. Who gives a crap if you missed one Orokin Cell out of 15? Who cares if you missed an health orb?

wow, what mission are you doing that gets you fifteen O cells in a reasonable time frame? I'm really lucky these days to get 4 O cells in a twenty minute survival with Pilferdroid and Desekros.

[Tyrian3k]

2 hours ago, RayxAyanami said:

There will be no need to use Sentinels if Universal vacuum is implemented. You can try and give niche reasons like "Helios scans", "Carrier converts Ammo" or "Taxon gives shields", but In reality, Kavats and kubrows are far superior as companions.

Let's just leave it as it is.

As I already said: If sentinels are useless without vacuum, that just means that their unique abilities are already trash to begin with and vacuum just covers that up. If the only reason to use a sentinel is vacuum, then there is no meaningful choice in which one you use, which is why most people settle for carrier.

[TheRealDestian]

3 hours ago, RayxAyanami said:

There will be no need to use Sentinels if Universal vacuum is implemented. You can try and give niche reasons like "Helios scans", "Carrier converts Ammo" or "Taxon gives shields", but In reality, Kavats and kubrows are far superior as companions.

Let's just leave it as it is.

They also have a higher cost associated with maintaining them, though, since sentinels never require stabilization or any other form of maintenance.

If they're going to balance the pets in this game around something, I'd rather it not be a QoL feature like AoE looting (which absolutely no one would consider a "feature", had been baseline since the beginning of the game).

[Illithar]

2 hours ago, RayxAyanami said:

There will be no need to use Sentinels if Universal vacuum is implemented. You can try and give niche reasons like "Helios scans", "Carrier converts Ammo" or "Taxon gives shields", but In reality, Kavats and kubrows are far superior as companions.

Let's just leave it as it is.

Honestly, it's this reasoning, along with this entire debate, that just highlights how not great the current companion system really is. They need to be revised; we need Companions 2.0.

As much as I like my Smeeta Kavat, it's literally just a buff with hit points for me. The AI is far to derp to really accomplish anything. Sure it does more damage than any sentinel, if they actually attack anything. My sentinel is just a way for me to avoid most ammo economy issues. Both are a places for me to stuff QoL mods, not just vacuum but things like Animal Instinct and Ammo Case, that I don't want clogging up my Warframes and Weapons.

[Lionheartby]

I wish they would fix normal vacuum. when i camp an area in a survival and kill stuff, and the life support drops 4m away from me and doesnt automatically pick up.

[(PSN)HurricaneHugo76]

27 minutes ago, Lionheartby said:

I wish they would fix normal vacuum. when i camp an area in a survival and kill stuff, and the life support drops 4m away from me and doesnt automatically pick up.

LOL, this is exactly what I am talking about......

 

That is the anti AFK system kicking in, if you stay in one spot for a few minutes vacuum turns off to prevent you from using AFK exploits. This was intentionally put in by DE to prevent the very thing you want to do and think you are allowed to.

Edited February 23, 2018 by (PS4)HurricaneHugo76

[Lionheartby]

im not allowed to camp? im still manually using weapons. im not Away From Keyboard, im At My Keyboard Actively Pressing Buttons

[Xyngrr]

Seems like the right place and time in the conversation to link this.
For the record, I'm not in favour of a larger universal vacuum for the warframe itself. The archwing could use one, especially on the plains as it's a pain to maneuver. That's one of the things that spurred the drone idea.

 

[Ragnarok160]

On 2/18/2018 at 2:28 PM, Miser_able said:

Probably because not everyone wants it.

Pretty much everyone wanted prime access accessory packs. 

I dont see any sensable person not wanting it, its such a feel good mod that it overshadows kubrows and kavats in general curcumstances

[Ragnarok160]

On 2/18/2018 at 3:36 PM, tyranno66 said:

Yeah because you so desperately need those 15 circuits. If you want to be lazy (or have "QoL") you do so, but don't force it onto people who don't want vacuum. And I swear to Lotus if DE nerf pets and add vacuum to them I'mma be pissed.

Ur arguement makes no sense, what would be the harm of having it? 

[Miser_able]

2 minutes ago, Ragnarok160 said:

I dont see any sensable person not wanting it, its such a feel good mod that it overshadows kubrows and kavats in general curcumstances

There was a poll about this a weekish ago, and Iirc it correctly ~30% said no. So there are quite a few people. 

IMO having both vacuum and pets is overpowered, and players should have to choose between the two. 

[Ragnarok160]

On 2/18/2018 at 5:52 PM, AuroraSonicBoom said:

It's not needed, it's as simple as that. Collecting all the loot in an area isn't so fundamental to the game's progression like attacking or moving. It's a quality of life improvement, and by now with all those concessions and options DE has given you, you have no ground to stand on demanding even more.

As a player progresses, the importance of collected loot decreases until it's only important for a few selected mods or resources they want to make sure they'll get.

It's overall better for the economy to have players collect less superfluous loot. Sure, you can't stop it, but you can refrain from encouraging it at least.

Same goes for the psychological aspect. It's more rewarding to walk to loot compared to have it brought to you. Even if the difference is tiny, there's one between picking up loot manually and having it float to you through walls and ceilings. One is active, the other passive. The effect might be tiny, but with repeated over a long time, it conditions a player emotionally.

You have the option to use any sentinel of your choosing. Univac isn't a necessity, not from a loot standpoint, and not from a gameplay standpoint. It's a luxury at the very least, one you can be expected to give up temporarily for benefits that are affecting the combat much more. What, you don't need 60% crit buffs, double drops or invisibility? Stay with sentinels, then. Take what DE has given you, ask for improvements to Chesa companions, but do not pretend that not having a mod that satisfies people's OCD equipped is a gamebreaking drawback.

 A lot of what your saying is varyies, yea i have 200k alloy  but that doesnt mean i dont want more, warframe is a collectathon in most cases and energy and health drops are also important ourside of resources, i hate when im being shot at by 30 enemies and i have to stop to try and dash to a pickup, the majority of people here want it to be a thing and all the counter arguements arnt vaild because it doesnt count the community as a majority which want it. In a nut shell it wont hurt the game any to have it and we art " demanding" anything but the playerbase is a crucial part of letting DE know what they want, its up to them weather or not they will do it and no one is going to quit the game over it

[Ragnarok160]

5 minutes ago, Miser_able said:

There was a poll about this a weekish ago, and Iirc it correctly ~30% said no. So there are quite a few people. 

IMO having both vacuum and pets is overpowered, and players should have to choose between the two. 

A good amount of people want the mod to be taken off of sentinel and pets and be on the frame itself, i believe the pool for that was about 50-60% , honestly looking at the problem carrier caused for so long and what current problems its causing it would be a best case to put it on the frames, DE dpesnt get money for having vaccum on just sentinels and im sure its trivial to move it to frames

Edited March 2, 2018 by Ragnarok160

[vvhorus]

6 minutes ago, Miser_able said:

There was a poll about this a weekish ago, and Iirc it correctly ~30% said no. So there are quite a few people. 

IMO having both vacuum and pets is overpowered, and players should have to choose between the two. 

Overpowered against who, the AI? Aren't we all "overpowered" anyways? Also, what did the other ~70% of the responders of that poll say? Could you share the link to that poll?

I don't use pets because (1) the Vacuum mod is indispensable for me, and (2) there is not a single pet buff or ability that is useful or interesting to me. I personally might consider using pets more if DE modified the Vacuum mod to be able to use it on them.

[Oreades]

6 hours ago, Lionheartby said:

im not allowed to camp? im still manually using weapons. im not Away From Keyboard, im At My Keyboard Actively Pressing Buttons

The problem is the inactivity timer only considers frame movement so you can be actively playing and still get flagged if you have stood in one place too long. 

I actually got flagged one match where I was running around as my Operator the whole time and when I got knocked back I just popped right back out. I was running around all over the place, killing tons of Grineer (I think I was like 30% of our total damage) when we extracted it was "ineligible due to inactivity" across the whole board...... and the only reason I can figure is because my Warframe was essentially stood in one spot the whole match doing nothing while I tried to level up my AMP.

Edited March 2, 2018 by Oreades

[Miser_able]

2 hours ago, vvhorus said:

Overpowered against who, the AI? Aren't we all "overpowered" anyways? Also, what did the other ~70% of the responders of that poll say? Could you share the link to that poll?

I don't use pets because (1) the Vacuum mod is indispensable for me, and (2) there is not a single pet buff or ability that is useful or interesting to me. I personally might consider using pets more if DE modified the Vacuum mod to be able to use it on them.

http://www.strawpoll.me/15111685

OK, so I was a bit off on the numbers(or they changed since I last saw it) now it's 60, 24,16.

Personally I don't like polls like this as it might not be reflective of all Warframe players, but whatever. 

[Sziklamester]

I appreciated when they tested the vacuum possibilities back in some timex ago. The built in warframe vacuum is the best option to remove the dependancies of the vacuum mod on sentinel and choose between them. The solution is simple but it needs some time. The companions overall needs better AI and the pets need also more useful tactics and option to do complex movesets and maneuvers to stay alive. Their maintance cost should be reduced it is not a beginner friendly and a lot of us doesn't want to take care them as often as often they needed. It is not that pet simulator game and it should not be a second job to monitorize them.

Also sentinels needs tweaks and option to regen them wihout total destruction in a mission. Also they need buffs and already the sentinels needs more weapons. I wanted this addition long ago from the DEvs but they always choosing different areas and not solve issues or improving areas in the companion question. They felt it is fine and it is nice to choose between 2 bad option.

Sentinels may be weaker than the other companions but they all have multiple good options and things what they can do. Taxon for example not only over shields you but it can slow down enemies which is a good thing in a fast paced game. A qol change or addition could have be a weapon for taxon which freeze multiple enemies for 5 seconds. Shade can hide you like the huras and the shade invisibility could be duration based or toggle based and you can just push a button then you are invisible until your energy down. Carrier can does an acceptable damage and can help to balance your ammo efficiency. Helios also can scan which is good if you have no patience to do manually and also can deal a normal damage with proper modding. Etc.

Sentinels could be more better if they given meaningful buffs and some stat buffs too. First of all their low damage is intended by DE but it can be buffed if these feels weak. Also it is up to them to add multiple weapons to our sentinels because honestly they also deserve more weapons and their weapons doesn't need similar visual changes like ours. Simply add a new image and different effects and voile there is a new better weapon to them. They can also add multiple weapon for choice also we will be just happier because the sentinel weapons also means xp so the mastery rank 30 could be reachable if they use this option too. I don't think we need 1000 weapons for sentinels but a fair 10-10 each sentinel would not harm. The only reason why peoples not consider to use these because it is fairly weak, not total bad but not so strong so the sentinels can kill on max medium levels.

 

Another reason why would be good an universal vacuum on frames because the game is fast paced and that artifical slow down no need when they added multiple ways to slow down us.  It is a quality of life change and it should not be a sentinel exclusive item because if this is the only reason to use them then the companion system needs a rework because it is bad. In reality it is bad really and long ago needed some rework or changes but as I stated the priority always was different. Also they could make the universal vacuum turnable and an menu option item like the context reload. If you wish use it if not then not use it. If you have multiple items and rescources that not means other have that amount too. I personaly loot all the map and I like to spend time to collect everything possible from the map but I understand others whom rush because the reward system also bad and most of the players want to get everything fast as possible. I don't know why it should be a choice thing and not a qol change when it is a qol change.

 

The peoples whom against it they are mostly afraid what consequences could be if they remove the vacuum from sentinels and turn into warframe passive. They compare broken things to broken things because the current companion system is broken partly also the looting broken partly. Their most fear is the peoples turn into lazy and they think everyone should work hard to get something. This is a core problem of the game because the vast majority of playerbase is casual, there are leechers, there are hardcore players and there are multiple halfway peoples whom partly this and that.

I personally feel the only good option would be to solve this issue if they add a 8 meter long vacuum as a warframe passive and they reworking the sentinels and the whole companion system. Also they add an option to peoples whom not want flying kraps to their face to turn off the vacuum. Everyone would be happy and the whole need or no need thing would be solved and fixed once for all. 

 

It is depend on DE what to do with this because it is clearly said and not in first times, there need an universal vacuum for qol. Also they could look at to rebalance the whole starchart because there are a tons of ghosttown missions which not played at all or not that attractive because the loot and xp reward system is too limited. Tons of runs and tries need to obtain items and that is not serves the game in long run if they want a healty community. I know the reason behind it because it is a tool to keep players interested in the game and force them to play the game if they want to get something but it is not that attractive to new and many older players too. They need to develop other ways to keep players interested, because in long term the grind and bad numbers itself kill the motivation to play the game. Not everyone patient or strong willed to do the things daily multiple times what I personaly doing with multiple accounts. It is boring and tiresome and need to do some relax. It is the same if I have had only 1 account because then that one account would be used all the time but the result is the same. 

So they need to add vacuum but in a way where everything is fine and everyone could be happy, in this case it is possible to do.

[vvhorus]

58 minutes ago, Miser_able said:

http://www.strawpoll.me/15111685

OK, so I was a bit off on the numbers(or they changed since I last saw it) now it's 60, 24,16.

Personally I don't like polls like this as it might not be reflective of all Warframe players, but whatever. 

Oh, that poll. I did not vote on it because I think the best solution would be to change the Vacuum mod to also include pets. That would give everyone the freedom to do whatever they like.

I'm with you on that one. These kinds of polls do not represent the entire community, just the few people who decided to participate after seeing it.

Edited March 2, 2018 by vvhorus

[True_Naeblis]

Every time this comes up the same simple solution is offered about 1 page in: add universal vacuum, make it a toggle.

• Sentinels will still remain useful for ammo conversion, overshields, etc. for those who want them, plus, fashion frame
• The people who worry that DE will lose money if sents aren't "necessary" have failed to notice the ridiculous amounts people spend customizing pets despite them being tedious to maintain as companions. If there's more ease of use with them, DE will still continue to rake in the cash
• The toggles allow the hipsters "I did it the hard way, so be thankful you have anything" crowd to continue being smug in their ivory tower

I'd prefer that we don't continue letting a vocal minority dictate the game for everyone else, especially when it's as simple as adding a toggle to allow them their 1337ness.

[SilentMobius]

7 minutes ago, True_Naeblis said:

Every time this comes up the same simple solution is offered about 1 page in: add universal vacuum, make it a toggle.

• Sentinels will still remain useful for ammo conversion, overshields, etc. for those who want them, plus, fashion frame
• The people who worry that DE will lose money if sents aren't "necessary" have failed to notice the ridiculous amounts people spend customizing pets despite them being tedious to maintain as companions. If there's more ease of use with them, DE will still continue to rake in the cash
• The toggles allow the hipsters "I did it the hard way, so be thankful you have anything" crowd to continue being smug in their ivory tower

I'd prefer that we don't continue letting a vocal minority dictate the game for everyone else, especially when it's as simple as adding a toggle to allow them their 1337ness.

This isn't a "simply solution" it's a non solution. You aren't even looking at the right problem.

Universal vacuum invalidates a core game mechanic, without some cost (movement, companion choice, mod slot) there is simply no reason for physical loot.

I get that players don't understand this, but seriously, developers do.

Edited March 2, 2018 by SilentMobius

[True_Naeblis]

1 minute ago, SilentMobius said:

This isn't a "simply solution" it's a non solution. You aren't even looking at the right problem.

Universal vacuum invalidates a core game mechanic, without some cost (movement, companion choice, mod slot) there is simply no reason for physical loot.

I get that players don't understand this, but seriously, developers do.

Last I checked I still have to move around the map to gather the loot I've unearthed. I'm not talking about something with a 200m range where you stand and collect everything and neither are most others. We're talking about a universal system that functions like the current vacuum mod, allows QoL to be better no matter which companion is run, and still allows a toggle for the "hardcore" players who find some kind of satisfaction in working harder to run directly over every resource they want in a game that's designed to be played at a fast pace and where we nuke mobs and heavies in every direction.

I have to fish for each fish that I need, I have to mine for all the gems I need; there are instances where there's direct work for pay. I kill the enemies that I need to or crack the resource nodes, I shouldn't then have to add tedium to things by making sure that I run precisely over the item to get in into my inventory, especially if it's in an odd location.

The other common trait is that every time this comes up those who are against it use the same draconian arguments or hyperbole to try and act like this is about laziness. Resources drop everywhere, the crafting tables take this into account and in general require amounts in keeping with that. Again, a toggle allows the cool kids to continue being cooler than the rest of us. You'll be happy, we'll be happy, and people can spend their energy arguing about the important stuff, like whose meta is better.

Maybe one day people will get that this is a game.

 

[Hypernaut1]

1 hour ago, SilentMobius said:

This isn't a "simply solution" it's a non solution.

Universal vacuum invalidates a core game mechanic, without some cost (movement, companion choice, mod slot) there is simply no reason for physical loot.

I get that players don't understand this, but seriously, developers do.

I don't think it invalidates a core mechanic because many players use vacuum anyway.

What it does is remove choice. Clearly DE wants choosing the convenience of a pet to be a choice. It may not be a popular one, but it's a significant choice to make for some players. The choice is given depth when players that decide to use pets come to realize they DON'T need to depend on vacuum at all. It's the same way with defensive mods. At first Redirection and vitality are everything. DE gives you the option to use those instead of just buffing frame health. It appears to be absolutely necessary. As a player becomes advanced, they begin to realize that there are better options to survivability than using those mods. 

Making vacuum universal is practically just dumbing the game down. Popularity does not equal necessity. 

Edited March 2, 2018 by Hypernaut1