Raspberry Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 (edited) Adarza and Smeeta kavats no longer apply their buffs to Operators, and this change has big implications not just for Eidolons but for all future bosses of their scale. Not only are our list of useless pets in the freezer getting ever bigger (and the upcoming MOAs will no doubt join them), but this action also shows that DE doesn't know how to make bosses difficult without making abilities simply fail to work. I'm not fond of artificially adding difficulty to a game. Why should we players be punished for finding an efficient way to beat a boss? If anything, it's 100% DE's fault for not coming up with a way to make bosses harder in natural ways in the first place. All this time, we hope that bosses no longer have invincible armor, we hope that nullifiers don't eventually become a ubiquitous solution, we hope that abilities already unfit for hordes won't be nerfed just because they're useful when we're fighting bosses and not mobs. All these wishes, while also being granted a fight that's sufficiently challenging to us. Instead, disappointment is the only thing to look forward to in upcoming end-game content. Edited February 21, 2018 by Raspberri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-NTB-Cris0407 Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 That makes Adarza COMPLETELY USELESS... Smeeta still for Charm... Sentinels 1:0 Kavats Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CriticalFumble Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 1 minute ago, Cris0407 said: That makes Adarza COMPLETELY USELESS... Smeeta still for Charm... Sentinels 1:0 Kavats They took out the crit and energy effects on operators for charm, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raspberry Posted February 21, 2018 Author Share Posted February 21, 2018 10 minutes ago, CriticalFumble said: They took out the crit and energy effects on operators for charm, too. I think I'll still bring my Smeeta to eidolon hunts just because they can continuously use Animal Instinct while sentinels would just die and I'd lose functionality of that mod. But yeah, Adarza is in the bin now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dstrawberrygirl Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 I guess, playing devil's advocate, it didn't make much sense that Trinity can't heal operators, but a kavat could apply buffs. So now we're truly on our own when we're using operators. I'd still like Crit Kitty for buffs for taking down limbs, and they do survive better than sentinels (at least they can be revived repeatedly). 21 minutes ago, Raspberri said: DE doesn't know how to make bosses difficult without making abilities simply fail to work I'm not normally a fan of threads moaning about nerfs, but this point is sound - you (DE) give us abilities and tools to make us stronger so that we can take on more challenging content, but instead of increasing the challenge in interesting ways, the solution seems to be a disappointing "invincibility phase" boss or a "nullifier" boss. If the current meta is killing Eidolons too quickly, then rather than kill a lovely synergy with our pets, why not consider a buff to the Eidolons to make them harder? Have them scale for the number of players in the squad, or have them adapt and call for more shields from nearby vombalysts more frequently if their shields are taken down quickly, or have their armor adapt like other sentient creatures, giving us more of a challenge in choosing our loadouts? Nerfing Chroma didn't change the end result - the community will continue to find a new meta. But whack-a-mole nerfs won't actually solve what I believe is the bigger issue for DE, which is that the current end-game content is being beaten too quickly by veterans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CriticalFumble Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 3 minutes ago, Raspberri said: I think I'll still bring my Smeeta to eidolon hunts just because they can continuously use Animal Instinct while sentinels would just die and I'd lose functionality of that mod. But yeah, Adarza is in the bin now. In that context, whouldn't either kavat (or any kubrow) be equal in usefulness? Unless charm can double Eidolon drops (which I'd be suprised of, with how protective DE seems about exclusive drops). At least its a fairly minor nerf, but it is irritating how DE keeps adding more situation where things that normally do one thing instead do nothing under unexplained situations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dadaddadada Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 While it is true that kubrows and kavats have always been inferior in general, i don't think this change will slow down eidolon runs by big amounts assuming players are experienced. Limbs can still be two-shotted and the combo of madurai/unairu/volt will likely still strip shields in like 10 seconds instead of 2 second. However night is an hour away so cannot test for sure. I do agree that probably making eidolons scale would be a better band-aid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raspberry Posted February 21, 2018 Author Share Posted February 21, 2018 8 minutes ago, dstrawberrygirl said: Nerfing Chroma didn't change the end result - the community will continue to find a new meta. But whack-a-mole nerfs won't actually solve what I believe is the bigger issue for DE, which is that the current end-game content is being beaten too quickly by veterans. The underlying issue from this is actually the fact that end-game players are pressured into finding the absolute best efficiency of taking down Eidolons. Not only are their presence limited to a 50 min time limit, but they are also farmable within that window of time, PLUS even their drops are designed to be pretty much farmed. On the other hand, we take sorties casually not just because of the lack of difficulty but also because we aren't pressured to finish sorties in the quickest way possible. We want to spend as little time maxing out our Focus as possible because it's boring, and we can't do that without defeating Eidolons in the fastest ways possible. Perhaps DE didn't exactly see this coming, since they didn't really intend Focus to be something to grind for, anyway (just an "extra bonus" for leftover affinity to be used on), and so they thought giving Eidolons the only items in the game that can directly give us Focus points was going to be a relatively harmless addition to Update 22. Instead, they found themselves in a crisis, the realization that they don't yet know how to make a true end-game boss yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SupaFlyWF Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 This change alone absolutely boggles me. Of all the things they could have changed to make their Eidolons less face-rolled (and still really need to change), they chose the one that any player could bring. So instead of taking a step toward frame diversity, it takes another step toward the viable few frames. It's a change that will largely not impact the meta group farming. Instead of dropping the Eidolon shield in 6 seconds with 100% crit chance, it will take them 20 seconds with 30% crit chance. Well I guess it was nice being able to bring one of the other 25 warframes in the game and not feel like completely dead weight. Pity the creature design was the only thing they took from the game that inspired Eidolons in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MunsuLight Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 (edited) il y a 8 minutes, dadaddadada a dit : While it is true that kubrows and kavats have always been inferior in general, i don't think this change will slow down eidolon runs by big amounts assuming players are experienced. Limbs can still be two-shotted and the combo of madurai/unairu/volt will likely still strip shields in like 10 seconds instead of 2 second. However night is an hour away so cannot test for sure. I do agree that probably making eidolons scale would be a better band-aid. The only change that will happen it that squad that did like 4 Hydro by night will probably still be able to do to a 4th gant.. People doing 3 with a little bit of spare time .. will still be able to do 3 but with less time in the end.. And Like I said. .the buff was still unreliable most of the time.. Sure sometimes two popped at the same time..But something during a full shield phase it didn't even pop.. DE.. doesnt like efficiency .. Edited February 21, 2018 by MunsuLight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dstrawberrygirl Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 1 minute ago, Raspberri said: The underlying issue from this is actually the fact that end-game players are pressured into finding the absolute best efficiency of taking down Eidolons. Not only are their presence limited to a 50 min time limit, but they are also farmable within that window of time, PLUS even their drops are designed to be pretty much farmed. On the other hand, we take sorties casually not just because of the lack of difficulty but also because we aren't pressured to finish sorties in the quickest way possible. And once you complete your focus farm marathon, you want arcanes! Raids reached speed-run point, but only by meta teams that were highly organized, and due to the 4+ player requirement, I never bothered. Eidolons can be taken out fast, even with two players. A set of three Eidolons can get you something like 135k focus? (I haven't fully-checked the result, I finished focus a while ago) and a 10 minute Adaro solo can yield the same result. But you're right, the time pressure is an issue. It would actually be kinda cool to see what would happen if Sunrise of Doom wasn't the ticking clock, leaving Eidolons with a lure attached alive on the plains until either they broke free of the lure, or they were killed or captured by the tenno. You'd have the additional challenge of high-level Grineer in the fight, including drop ships and other crazies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-NTB-Cris0407 Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 53 minutes ago, CriticalFumble said: They took out the crit and energy effects on operators for charm, too. I meant charm for kuva... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dstrawberrygirl Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 Just now, Cris0407 said: I meant charm for kuva... Both Kavats are perfectly useful in every other situation - Ardaza can do all sorts of lovely things all across the star map, so she's far from useless. Just take her along while you do a survival with an atterax and watch the red crits fly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)Tucker D Dawg Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 I guess they want people to stay in the most complained about game mode longer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oreades Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 3 minutes ago, dstrawberrygirl said: Both Kavats are perfectly useful in every other situation - Ardaza can do all sorts of lovely things all across the star map, so she's far from useless. Just take her along while you do a survival with an atterax and watch the red crits fly. Until they NERF™ the Atterax :P Seriously tho DE has been on a spree nerfing things that in any way make farming efficient. Last patch it was the Ivara Prowl Nerf that exists only to break up anyone who was running multi Ivara teams and came along with a pretty lame "explanation" that tried to spin it like it was going to make Ivara better for groups somehow........ and something about bringing her on par with Necros? This Patch it's nerfing the Synergy between Critty Kitties and the Operator for no other purpose than slowing down the Eidolon fights. That's it.... destroying a synergy across an entire game to slow down a single set of boss fights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fellas92 Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 First they fix the interaction emote with pets, then they butcher everything down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)Tucker D Dawg Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 was actually just thinking - solo runs probably where this would hurt the most - We console peasants don't have the new fights, but I wouldn't bother doing a solo terralyst without my cat. critty kitty makes the boring shield depletion portion tolerable when solo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)Erudite Prime Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 50 minutes ago, Raspberri said: Perhaps DE didn't exactly see this coming, since they didn't really intend Focus to be something to grind for This cannot be true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-AncientWarrior- Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 Why DE Why!! .. Of all the things to do why alter the Kitty Synergy.. As a primarily solo player the Cats are my team-mates on the playing field and they return the favour by giving me love buffs.. oh a crit buff or oh big charm .. good kitty.. it does seem to be DE have the mind set of "more grind" is good.. maybe thats their 2018 goal .. more grind and less rewards for you tennos .. oh well back to my search for the elusive Bailiff Eximus scans :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OvisCaedo Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 Well, at least I never again have to deal with the slight hassle of removing a cat from the fridge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fellas92 Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 Soo adarza is nerfed, what's next ? Void strike or lanka ? Place your bets people! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)Tucker D Dawg Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 11 minutes ago, Fellas92 said: Soo adarza is nerfed, what's next ? Void strike or lanka ? Place your bets people! volt shield, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SupaFlyWF Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 23 minutes ago, Raspberri said: The underlying issue from this is actually the fact that end-game players are pressured into finding the absolute best efficiency of taking down Eidolons. I can't speak for all end-game players, but the reason I am pressured toward using only the absolute best way to take down Eidolons is because is the most rewarding way to play. I've already solo tripled capped the Eidolons in one night, and I'll try it one more time again after this nerf, but the reason I don't do it anymore is because it just isn't rewarding. The most rewarding way to play is also the least entertaining, which is a big problem for a video game. Bringing the same frame to the same mission to fight the same scripted boss fight makes you get bored with the game way faster than it should. Familiar with MMO burnout? MMOs have the identical nature of forcing you into repetitive content to get the best rewards. One of the best ways to prevent this burnout is to have multiple characters to play through the same content to vary up your game play. But Warframe lacks that whole dynamic. You have all these warframes with all these abilities, but only a handful are actually viable in the end-game scenarios we are presented with. Eidolons are basically immune to every offensive warframe ability, so for 80% of warframes, you are just the same walking gun. Really enjoy playing Ember? Well too bad, she plays no differently than a Atlas in an Eidolon fight. And the other 20% of warframes provide some kind of insane benefit to damage or survivability that creates this massive rift between having them and not having them. Put this in a scenario where rewards are uncapped in a very limited time window, and of course you get what you have right now... bad design choices piling up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yagamilight123 Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 hace 16 minutos, Fellas92 dijo: Soo adarza is nerfed, what's next ? Void strike or lanka ? Place your bets people! Void strike most likely ... You dont Even need adarza if you can take the shields in 3 shots or less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MunsuLight Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 (edited) il y a 41 minutes, Yagamilight123 a dit : Void strike most likely ... You dont Even need adarza if you can take the shields in 3 shots or less. If they nerf Void Strike.. I'm leaving until they stop their slowing down of the game.. I felt in love with the game because because it was fast paced.. All the new changes in general have the same general purposes of slowing down the game which is not my cup of tea.. Fine you dont want people to do 3x Hydrolyst each night.. Fine.. Just put more challenges if you want to do that.. Not nerfing thing.. I would prefer seeing the Hydrolyst having more shield and different attacks patterns that having things nerfed Edited February 21, 2018 by MunsuLight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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