Ember Won't Be Viable Until Some Changes Are Made

[(PSN)thefallenloser]

I will start off by saying that this is an Ember Rework thread, sorry for the different type of formatting in the title. We'll be discussing her current functions, where she came from, and where she is now. Then, we'll discuss how effective she is compared to other Warframes and how we can make she better.

Now then, let's begin!

---

(notice that I call this an Ember rework and not revisit. World on Fire is getting cut completely.)

Now then, Ember... let's just say it, she's bad. She's not viable to me at any level of play anymore. She suffers from many different factors. After the World on Fire nerf, her surviviability has been more noticeable than ever, especially on the vast Plains of Eidolon where we are "encouraged" to spend much time during the game. Her low damage output for what is supposed to be the damage Frame is slightly better than it was before and none of the actual issues that people had with Ember were addressed.

Quote

Ember is the original damage caster frame, offering low survivability in exchange for high offense. Her ultimate, World on Fire, is unmatched in terms of widespread lethality - while many Warframes specialize in certain mission types, Ember’s specialty is “anything under level 30”.

And now it's "anything under level 40"? Her whole thing is ever less effective than it was before, and makes her theoretically weaker, considering her damage can't reach far enough to control the areas that would be putting her down. The reason she will continue to be weak in this day and age of Warframe is because just damage can't do crap. She needs utility.

Quote

World on Fire will continue working similarly to how it does now, but with changing effects over time. The gradually increasing energy cost should encourage most players to toggle the ability when needed, instead of the current “set and forget” approach. Players who can afford to run the ability at max charge may need to get more up close and personal, but the increased damage should help Ember out against higher level enemies.  World on Fire is still very capable of clearing rooms and sweeping hallways, but should now be applied more deliberately!

The exact opposite, actually. While she is technically stronger, now she's more prone to death than ever. Nerfing the range on her World on Fire throws her surviviability in the trash, making her more prone to damage due to her not having a good enough effect on the battlefield. World on Fire is also now pretty much the least capable of clearing rooms effectively. A Lenz does it faster. This doesn't mean that I want to see World on Fire go back to what it was before. I feel that her fourth ability should be so much more.

Now that that's been said, let's hop straight into how to make Ember good! And before you guys start arguing with me about "she's very good... with this augment!" I mean without an Augment.

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The Ember Rework - Sixth Degree Burns

_____

Passive - Ignition - It is a theoretically good passive. However, with the fact that only about four or five different things can cause Ember to take fire damage, you're hardly ever gonna' get that 10 energy per second and 35% extra power strength. Additionally, Ember isn't anywhere among the tank Frames, so she won't be able to normally benefit from it with the ridiculous enemy scaling.

• NEW Passive - Wildfire
  • enemies closer to Ember have more of a chance to suffer a Heat proc, heat procs last twice as long
    • 100% chance when 1 meter away
    • diminishes by 5% per meter
    • increased Heat proc chance is additive

This new proposed passive is very useful (and practical), encouraging you to use heat-based weapons to increase you survivability by forcing enemies to panic. It also has high damage potential, considering enemies will suffer the burning effect for much longer than usual.

1ST - Fire Ball - Still isn't that good, but it is pretty close to getting there. The charge up time to get the max Fire Ball effect is way too slow and isn't good enough to use. Fire Ball itself is also pretty slow. Let's take the general concept and make it a bit more useful in higher levels.

• increase projectile fight speed of normal Fire Ball by 20%
• charging to the max changes Fire Ball to a two handed action
  • much bigger Fire Ball
    • much faster travel time
  • guaranteed knockdown chance with added blast damage
  • fire damage is doubled, along with area damage.
  • current lingering AOE effect shall be effected by range
  • 75% fire status chance

This should make the ideas that DE were going for much much better to use, and also fun! Like a Kamehameha, but Fire? Wait! It's a burning Spirit Ball!

2ND - Accelerant - It's pretty good already. I want to just give it a tiny buff and little extra addition.

• Accelerant Stun
  • equal for all enemies (5 seconds, not effected by duration)
  • enemies are opened to melee finishers

This will further increase Ember's survivability while her 4th ability isn't active, giving her more protection and after effects in the midst of battle.

3RD - Fire Blast - Probably the worst ability in Ember's kit. Fire Blast isn't practical to use at all in a game like Warframe. It's primary function forces you to stand still and let the ring around you keep enemies away, and it's a fairly small ring at that (that doesn't even do what it's supposed to). The expanding ring on cast is alright at best, but the effect only lasts for 3 seconds which is absolutely nothing. On top of that its damage is absolutely terrible. The only situation this would ever be even somewhat practical in is Infestation missions because most of them can't shoot you. However, DE has been shoving the Grineer down our throats since day 1, so the ability should be useful across all factions.

• Fire Wave
  • the wave of expanding Plasma will burn away enemy armor and deal high damage over the duration
  • armor strip rate is 2/4/6/8 % per second for 6 seconds (effected by duration and strength)
  • damage per second is 70/140/210/280 (effected by strength)
  • wave radius is now effected by range
  • Ember's new Passive can increase the duration of armor strip
• Fire Ring
  • the ring made at the cast point will strip armor even faster and deal more damage
  • armor strip rate is 4/8/12/16 % per second (effected by strength)
  • damage per second is 100/200/300/400 (effected by strength)
  • ring now has a 5 meter radius and is 1 meter thick (effected by range)
  • Ring can now burn projectiles shot through it
    • 50% burn chance (effected by strength)
  • Ember's new Passive can affect the ability's potency
• remove
  • added fire damage inside the ring
• added synergy w/ 4th ability (see fourth ability)
• New Augment
  • Eruption - every 3 seconds, big geysers of plasma and fire erupt from the ground, damaging and knocking down nearby enemies
    • each geyser drains 5 energy

These proposed changes to Ember's Fire Blast will actually allow her to scale much higher into the game, and allow her to achieve her intended damage potential. Fire Blast will be much more useful and see regular usage at higher levels. Don't freak out at the removal of added fire damage here. The Augment however is a very useful skill. It's pretty much what Fire Quake is now, but stationary and effective within the range of Fire Blast, encouraging you to stay nearby. Very good for defenses.

4TH - (NEW) Ancient Inferno - World on Fire no longer has a place in the game, so I'm suggesting it be removed completely. With DE recently looking at older ability design and changing it up. Same case with her World on Fire as you know. Previously, World on Fire was a high range ability that dealt decent damage for "Starchart" content for little to no energy cost. This damage however lost scaling power very quickly, giving her the position of only being good for stuff below 50. Now, World on Fire can't clear rooms, which really takes away the "World" part from it. It also does more damage. But the limited range takes away survivability from Ember and Firequake. This new ability will adopt the added fire damage from Fire Blast's Ring and allow Ember to do much more damage and have some added utility.

And if DE can break promises by adding in a new ability for Zephyr after they said they aren't making new abilities, then I can do it too (sorry I'm still kinda' salty about that).

• Ember burns like the sun, unleashing the violent and godlike power of fire across the battlefield.
  • 75 energy to cast, 10 additional energy per second
  • Gating Flames - main function
    • enemies within 10 meters (not effected by range) take 300/600/900/1,200 fire damage (effected by strength) with guaranteed status chance
    • each enemy killed by Ember adds to the damage and range of Burning Ashes - main end function
  • Burning Ashes - main end fuction
    • on ability end, Ember erupts, dealing massive (heat and blast) damage to all enemies within 15 meters (not effected by range) while also blinding them with smoke and ashes
    • enemies killed by Gating Flames or Ember add onto the damage and range of Burning Ash Eruption
      • calculations for Burning Ash damage and range additions
        • every 500 points is 100 extra points of damage, every 2000 points is 1 extra meter
        • accumulates 50% of enemy health and/or shields for additional damage, and 50% for extra range
        • bypasses obstacles in the environment, but not level geometry (bypasses things such as Blunts, but not walls)
  • Mending Overheat - secondary function
    • yay! the possible return of overheat!
    • Ember gains 100% more fire damage to all attacks, and gains 50% damage reduction, along with healing 30 per second to her and all allies in range
    • extra fire damage not affected by strength, damage reduction effected by strength (maxed at 75%), and healing rate affected by strength w/ range not effected (range is 10 meters, increases with enemies killed)
• synergies
  • Fire Blast
    • enemies Ember kill while inside the ring have a 50% additional increase to the Burning Ashes counter
• New Augment
  • World On Fire - Ember ignites an entire room on fire (30 meters), dealing 300 damage per second to all enemies who enter the field with a 50% status chance.
    • ignited duration is 30 seconds
    • energy cost is 100

I know this sounds very overloaded and complicated, but it's really good, and the extended use is not encouraged because of the high energy cost. It can serve multiple different purposes and can put Ember back on the radar for high damage in an almost "Equinox" like way with the scaling per kill. The Mending Overheat function will make up for the low range, back returning that boost of survivability and Ember can finally benefit allies!

Also, World on Fire actually feels like the World's on Fire and can be used defensively now as an augment.

That'll be all for the Ember changes I propose!

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So... thanks everyone a ton for reading along, and I hope you enjoy the tweaks I propose to Ember, let me know what I missed or got wrong and also let me know if you'd like to see any changes to Ember and what those changes are! Thanks for reading along Tenno.

Whoo, that was I lot to type.

 

Edited March 15, 2018 by (PS4)ArtPrince17
Accelerant Gas Trail Removal (3.6.2018) - Added Synergy w/ Fire Blast and Ancient Inferno (3.7.2018)

[Kyryo]

Ember is dead.

Come  with me to Regret Island, here you can find Ash mains (like me), Tonkor users , Mirage+Spammulor, Synoid Gammcorers etc etc etc.

it's too late. The dead will remain dead. 

The grief will slowly go away... in .. a decade or two.

[An8rchy]

5 minutes ago, Kyryo said:

Ember is dead.

Come  with me to Regret Island, here you can find Ash mains (like me), Tonkor users , Mirage+Spammulor, Synoid Gammcorers etc etc etc.

it's too late. The dead will remain dead. 

The grief will slowly go away... in .. a decade or two.

It's not like there wasnt any backlash or actual good opinions and comments about it either, Ember was already bad at high lvls, and the nerf only made Firequake useless, so not even can't handle high lvls anymore, but the purpace of the "rework" (to make ember not to nuke low lvls) wasn't achived.
The only reason they gave double dmg, is that people wouldn't call the nerf out more than what they already did beacause knowing DE they would kill ember so fast even tho i bet shes more popular than Poster face Excal (Nothing beats best boi Loki)

[KaiTodd]

Ember was always a bad frame, and now shes even worse (saying this as an ember main). Wish DE actually reworked ember instead of just tweaking her abilities. If people hate how WOF nukes lower level enemies, I'd say reduce the overall damage of WOF, but let enemies affected by the ability melt armor. If that's too "OP", they could just change her fourth ability completely. However,I looked at over 50 different rework suggestions and I find yours the best. They seem really well thought out and if DE ever reworks ember again, I'd put my money on your idea. 

Edited March 5, 2018 by ChanTheMan2448

[helioth137]

19 minutes ago, Kyryo said:

Ember is dead.

Come  with me to Regret Island, here you can find Ash mains (like me), Tonkor users , Mirage+Spammulor, Synoid Gammcorers etc etc etc.

it's too late. The dead will remain dead. 

The grief will slowly go away... in .. a decade or two.

4

hmm let's take a look... 

ash main; can solo level 9999 survival missions with covert lethality + fatal teleport + arcane trickery x2 (does not break on nullifier bubble), ash is dead? lives on regret island? bs.

tonkor got a huge buff with the rework, it can be used, it's just not a weapon 40% of the endgame community use now, which i actually like.

mirage + spammulor needed to die, it was annoying, however it still has uses on for instance corpus defense type missions.

synoid gammacor i sold for 80 platinum because since the beam weapon rework and with rivens it is S rank / God tier.

back on topic, you can still make ember work right now in endgame with the right setup of arcanes, forma'd weapons e.t.c, and the right focus schools.

Regarding the possible rework for ember: I would love to see a nidus type "rebirth" mechanic on ember, let's call it living flame, ember can stack fire self buffs and debuffs
and upon reaching a certain amount of stacks she can die once without dieing, much like oberon's "phoenix renewal". What would also be cool for ember's fireball casting would be if it became a bit like nova's first ability; orbs of fire floated around you and gave you some damage protection. this could either be made to stack with use, making her more powerful the longer she stays in missions, which is what long term players say she needs most, or... some other unique mechanic which you think of ;) 
 

[Olianu]

Scrapping World on Fire for this change might be the better solution since so few will stop talking about it.

I like this one because aside from the final power, you brought a bit more functionality to the other powers.

[Olianu]

22 minutes ago, An8rchy said:

The only reason they gave double dmg, is that people wouldn't call the nerf out

They tried to cover the two largest complaints they kept hearing in the feedback.  The success of it is debatable, at best, but as I previously stated in my response on this post, scrapping WoF (in particular for this change) might be the best solution all together.

Edited March 5, 2018 by Olianu

[SenorClipClop]

1 hour ago, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said:

Now then, Ember... let's just say it, she's bad. She's not viable to me at any level of play anymore. She suffers from many different factors. After the World on Fire nerf, her surviviability has been more noticeable than ever, especially on the vast Plains of Eidolon where we are "encouraged" to spend much time during the game. Her low damage output for what is supposed to be the damage Frame is slightly better than it was before and none of the actual issues that people had with Ember were addressed.

You are overreacting. Ember only deals more damage now, having lasting proc zones added to Fireball, added Heat damage via 3 and up to doubled damage on 4. The only realy tradeoff is that she needs to play a little more dangerously close to her enemies to get WoF's damage off, which isn't a problem if you're making good use of Accelerant's stun, Fireblast's knockdown and/or Fireball's on-demand Heat proc stunlock. The other difference is that now she can't instakill things 2 rooms away in low levels unless you're toggling 4 on and off.

1 hour ago, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said:

Ember Won't Be Viable Until Some Changes Are Made

This is a link to a thread that happened shortly after the recent update to Ember, where I took on a Sortie with Ember (I'm near the bottom of Page 2). Even with a subpar build and no Range mods, I was able to stay alive and do decent damage on par with other frames. The one difference is that now it's harder for Ember to do that with just the press of a single button. She's not weaker, she's just more work. She's viable.

Edited March 5, 2018 by SenorClipClop

[(PSN)thefallenloser]

23 hours ago, helioth137 said:

back on topic, you can still make ember work right now in endgame with the right setup of arcanes, forma'd weapons e.t.c, and the right focus schools.

I honestly don't have the time for that. I have to invest significantly more into Ember to make her work as opposed to Frames like Mag, Harrow, or Nidus. Ember suffers from outdated design. And Focus schools and Arcanes shouldn't be the fix for that, especially since people try to actively avoid it.

23 hours ago, helioth137 said:

Regarding the possible rework for ember: I would love to see a nidus type "rebirth" mechanic on ember, let's call it living flame, ember can stack fire self buffs and debuffs
and upon reaching a certain amount of stacks she can die once without dieing, much like oberon's "phoenix renewal". What would also be cool for ember's fireball casting would be if it became a bit like nova's first ability; orbs of fire floated around you and gave you some damage protection. this could either be made to stack with use, making her more powerful the longer she stays in missions, which is what long term players say she needs most, or... some other unique mechanic which you think of ;) 
 

I've seen the "stacks" thing time and time again for Ember and I honestly didn't like any of them. Stacks was a unique mechanic that really only works for Nidus and feels thematic. When you try to apply the same basic concept on other Frames it feels cheap. The (Flaming) Null Star thing could work, but then Fire Ball would have to different unrelated functions.

23 hours ago, Olianu said:

Scrapping World on Fire for this change might be the better solution since so few will stop talking about it.

I like this one because aside from the final power, you brought a bit more functionality to the other powers.

Thank you! That's exactly what I was hoping for. The little niche additions that DE decides to put in from time to time (for example, Zephyr's hover mechanic) sometimes are turned down by the community so they can ask for something useful. Here, I tried to make "useful" also fun!

22 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

You are overreacting. 

I really think not. Ember, Nezha, and Zephyr are the three odd ones out in Warframe. They're really weak and don't really contribute like every other Frame does.

22 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

Ember only deals more damage now

-- I chime in, with half the range. Slightly more damage for half the area of effect = less effect on the battlefield = less CC = less survivability.

22 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

having lasting proc zones added to Fireball

That are so damn small and weak it'd be better off as a sign saying "HEY DON'T WALK OVER HERE, DO YOU SEE THIS LITTLE FIRE PUDDLE? DON'T STEP ON IT!"

22 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

added Heat damage via 3

A third ability that'll get you killed if used as intended and is also extremely weak.

22 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

The only realy tradeoff is that she needs to play a little more dangerously close to her enemies to get WoF's damage off, which isn't a problem if you're making good use of Accelerant's stun, Fireblast's knockdown and/or Fireball's on-demand Heat proc stunlock.

Fire Blast costs way too much energy to use in a horde shooter like Warframe just to push some enemies back for a few seconds. Accelerant only stuns for 1 to five seconds depending on enemy. Fire Ball has too low of a range to be effective. The charge up time is also beyond slow.

22 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

This is a link to a thread that happened shortly after the recent update to Ember, where I took on a Sortie with Ember (I'm near the bottom of Page 2). Even with a subpar build and no Range mods, I was able to stay alive and do decent damage on par with other frames. The one difference is that now it's harder for Ember to do that with just the press of a single button. She's not weaker, she's just more work. She's viable.

None of the images show. Are you using Imgur?

Edited March 6, 2018 by (PS4)ArtPrince17

[RealPandemonium]

Lol, these threads will be made for eternity.  Ember is better than she's ever been before.

[Maka.Bones]

would you guys... please read this & comment thoughts?

 

 

I'd appreciate it a lot. :)

[--RV--Draconian]

I really like these abilities, but:

1) the passive would even be pretty good, if it was +30% duration for heat procs. I think 60% would be perfect. It also makes sense, because Ash's passive is increased duration of slash procs. So i guess this passive won't be deemed "too strong".

2) accelerant looks pretty ridiculous - it increases fire damage done, stuns, opens for finishers, then can stun more? Open for finishers part makes sense logically, but seems too OP for me. Instead you can make accelerant increase the point gain for Burning Ashes, by let's say 30% as long as it is applied to an enemy. Or perhaps this additional point gain  can be moved to 3rd ability, adding different kind of synergy to each (Accelerant is a flat increase to fire dmg, then on top of that, if you use the 3rd you can scale your Ashes faster).

 

On a side note, i switched from Ember to Mesa for random missions, and now i'm a little surprised to see people using the former, although that recent change didn't alter her gameplay that much - you just have to run closer to enemies, and maybe use Accelerant more often. But for me, she's kind of frustrating to play now.

Edited March 6, 2018 by --RV--Draconian

[(PSN)thefallenloser]

13 hours ago, RealPandemonium said:

Lol, these threads will be made for eternity.  Ember is better than she's ever been before.

LOL, but she's still not good, and I just explained why. It's like you didn't even bother to read and just saw the title.

Edited March 6, 2018 by (PS4)ArtPrince17

[(PSN)thefallenloser]

4 hours ago, --RV--Draconian said:

1) the passive would even be pretty good, if it was +30% duration for heat procs. I think 60% would be perfect. It also makes sense, because Ash's passive is increased duration of slash procs. So i guess this passive won't be deemed "too strong".

Yup! I'm trying to get Ember closer and closer to the massive damage that was supposed to come with her without going overboard.

4 hours ago, --RV--Draconian said:

2) accelerant looks pretty ridiculous - it increases fire damage done, stuns, opens for finishers, then can stun more? Open for finishers part makes sense logically, but seems too OP for me.

That's true, I'll tone it down a bit, it does seem a bit overboard.

4 hours ago, --RV--Draconian said:

Instead you can make accelerant increase the point gain for Burning Ashes, by let's say 30% as long as it is applied to an enemy. Or perhaps this additional point gain  can be moved to 3rd ability, adding different kind of synergy to each (Accelerant is a flat increase to fire dmg, then on top of that, if you use the 3rd you can scale your Ashes faster).

I... actually like that idea. Wait-- it's coming to me...

Kills inside the Fire Blast Ring increases point gain by 50%! Even more of an incentive to stand still for a bit!

4 hours ago, --RV--Draconian said:

On a side note, i switched from Ember to Mesa for random missions, and now i'm a little surprised to see people using the former, although that recent change didn't alter her gameplay that much - you just have to run closer to enemies, and maybe use Accelerant more often. But for me, she's kind of frustrating to play now.

Yeah, I really want her to get back up there. Thanks for the ideas, I really wanna' use them.

Edited March 6, 2018 by (PS4)ArtPrince17

[RealPandemonium]

53 minutes ago, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said:

LOL, but she's still not good, and I just explained why. It's like you didn't even bother to read and just saw the title.

Damage output is not low, and Accelerant + WoF makes the surrounding area safe.  Ember's growing role as a team buff frame is also worth noting.  With a 200% strength build, you can add 15x Heat damage to teammates vs Accelerant-ed enemies, and +2.5x Heat damage per Fire Blast ring on top of that.

Use CP and/or status to deal with armor.  Armor is in the game, for good or for bad.  Demanding that every frame get an armor removal mechanic is silly; in that case why is armor even there in the first place?  To say nothing of efficacy vs the other two factions. 

Ember has been good for a while now, especially since Flash Accelerant was added.  The recent buff to WoF that simultaneously nerfs afking is the cherry on top, IMO.  

[(PSN)thefallenloser]

1 hour ago, RealPandemonium said:

Damage output is not low, and Accelerant + WoF makes the surrounding area safe.  

Within 7.5 meters. Being outside of the range, which most enemies usually are makes it easy for everyone to kill you.

1 hour ago, RealPandemonium said:

Ember's growing role as a team buff frame is also worth noting.  With a 200% strength build, you can add 15x Heat damage to teammates vs Accelerant-ed enemies...

True, true. She is a very nice team-buffer, it's the other three abilities that need work. Accelerant shouldn't so vastly outshine the other three abilities, especially since it's only a 2nd.

1 hour ago, RealPandemonium said:

...and +2.5x Heat damage per Fire Blast ring on top of that.

The real problem I have with Fire Blast's Ring is that a squishy Frame like Ember is forced to stand still to get the effects of it with nothing defensive to back it up.

1 hour ago, RealPandemonium said:

Use CP and/or status to deal with armor.  Armor is in the game, for good or for bad.  Demanding that every frame get an armor removal mechanic is silly; in that case why is armor even there in the first place?  To say nothing of efficacy vs the other two factions.

As a Frame that is purely damage on top of damage on top of damage, the damage Warframe Ember can't do jack to targets with high armor. A 30% reduction doesn't do anything high level, and quite honestly, something outside of her abilities shouldn't be required to help her do more.

[DeadMansChest]

Semi-relevant, it doesn't help that heat damage is the worst elemental damage type, even if just compared to the other 3 raw elemental damage types.

Grineer armor makes any bonus damage it'd have against their cloned flesh near irrelevant, it has no bonus damage against Corpus and actually does less damage to proto shields. The one faction it would have any bonuses toward, the Infested, has Ancients negating the damage anyways.

Compared to the other 3 raw elementals, it can't stack or do direct health damage like Toxin and it can't CC for the whole duration of the proc like Cold. With regards to Electricity, while its stun has the same laughable duration of 3~ seconds as Heat does, at least it can chain, stunning even more enemies.

Also, I wouldn't go so far as to Ember isn't viable, but she's a far cry from ideal when compared to Frames like Equinox, Mesa, Nezha, Saryn, Nidus and so forth who can do what she can do at higher levels and then some with a 1/20th of the effort

Edited March 6, 2018 by DeadMansChest

[Hypernaut1]

I wonder what frame the spammers will run to now? It's like rats jumping off a sinking ship

Edited March 6, 2018 by Hypernaut1

[Terrornaut]

2 hours ago, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said:

As a Frame that is purely damage on top of damage on top of damage, the damage Warframe Ember can't do jack to targets with high armor. A 30% reduction doesn't do anything high level, and quite honestly, something outside of her abilities shouldn't be required to help her do more.

There was a lot I agreed with in this post till I got to this.

This is just broken thinking, sorry.

Why should a frame be able to do everything and completely offset their weaknesses?  Ember needs work, I've made plenty of posts about it. Hell I made a 50 minute video just to provide some direction on how she can be used to wreak some havoc in high levels.
I don't think Ember should be able to armor strip on her own.  Somewhat? Maybe, but saying that a frame should not rely on gear to do what they need to is just mindblowingly off.  Why is this behavior and thinking so common with Ember, but with no other frames do people have a problem matching weapons and elemental types to a frame?  In any mmorpg, your whole kit is -your whole kit- your passives, your actives, your procs from gear, your gear, other weird things.  Yet in WF, people just shut down and think the kit is it and should be it..

Your kit is  your entire loadout, not your 1-4 + a possibly useful passive.

Anyway.

*Wildfire and Fireball changes I'm fine for and will hope for one day.  Probably the most reasonable and viable suggestions, along with the ult - mending overheat.

Accelerant changes? It doesn't really need any, but I'm not going to argue about getting melee finishers instead of 4x dmg ground finishers with firequake on top of my usual 5-7x damage from accelerant.

Although you do not seem to be aware that the size of the lingering cloud scales with power strength, which gives away your possible builds and what you haven't tested with.  Around 200%+ power strength, a fully charged fireball (which is so slow it is not worth it to just 2 cast, or 3 cast), grows to be the size that can fill a fireblast.

Fireblast, agreed on it being the worst ability in her kit and nearly in the game.  At this point I'm just blinded by sheer annoyance and aggravation that I don't even care to see it better, it just needs to be eradicated.  Even adding armor stripping on the ring is not going to really increase her effectiveness with damage though, considering the amount of time enemies spend there.  A damage character can have cc/zoning/area denial sure, but this is just poorly implemented (current fireblast I mean).  

Ancient Inferno is cool, can work, but it is just overloaded.  They don't want overheat. They've said over and over its done.  Take out that entire chunk and maybe, who knows.  It definitely is Maimy, but that's not really a bad thing I guess.
 

[Maka.Bones]

@(PS4)ArtPrince17 I think i'd like your ideas better than her current kit.  The passive you suggested would work a lot nicer... Increasing the stun duration for accelerant, and letting it affect *everything* would also be wonderful. I also don't care for her current fireblast, and would be happy to see it replaced with your suggestion. Finally, fireball--while it's cool--definitely feels too slow of a cast. I'd be happy if they replaced WoF with something more interactive/dynamic. The only thing I wish your suggestions also included, is a movement ability.

check out mine though, and comment your thoughts or w/e. Tbh, at this point, i'm just doing this for fun. I'm not really expecting DE to do any of this... at least not anytime soon, *if* they do. :/

 

 

[RealPandemonium]

20 hours ago, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said:

Within 7.5 meters. Being outside of the range, which most enemies usually are makes it easy for everyone to kill you.

True, true. She is a very nice team-buffer, it's the other three abilities that need work. Accelerant shouldn't so vastly outshine the other three abilities, especially since it's only a 2nd.

The real problem I have with Fire Blast's Ring is that a squishy Frame like Ember is forced to stand still to get the effects of it with nothing defensive to back it up.

As a Frame that is purely damage on top of damage on top of damage, the damage Warframe Ember can't do jack to targets with high armor. A 30% reduction doesn't do anything high level, and quite honestly, something outside of her abilities shouldn't be required to help her do more.

With just Stretch, Accelerant has a 29m radius and WoF has a 22m radius ( you can recast every 10 seconds to maintain maximum range.)

WoF also has a strong damage output, dealing upwards of 17k single starget dps (more total dps against multiple targets, up to 26k) with a 200% powerstr build and Flash Accelerant.  DPS obviously doubles to 34k (68k) if you let WoF ramp-up to its maximum.  This is hands-free damage alongside damage output from your guns and other powers, at a very low energy cost.  Sacrificing one more mod slot to add 27% more powerstr brings these values to 22.6k (35.75k), and 45.2k (71.5k) at max ramp-up.  

18 hours ago, DeadMansChest said:

Semi-relevant, it doesn't help that heat damage is the worst elemental damage type, even if just compared to the other 3 raw elemental damage types.

Grineer armor makes any bonus damage it'd have against their cloned flesh near irrelevant, it has no bonus damage against Corpus and actually does less damage to proto shields. The one faction it would have any bonuses toward, the Infested, has Ancients negating the damage anyways.

Compared to the other 3 raw elementals, it can't stack or do direct health damage like Toxin and it can't CC for the whole duration of the proc like Cold. With regards to Electricity, while its stun has the same laughable duration of 3~ seconds as Heat does, at least it can chain, stunning even more enemies.

Also, I wouldn't go so far as to Ember isn't viable, but she's a far cry from ideal when compared to Frames like Equinox, Mesa, Nezha, Saryn, Nidus and so forth who can do what she can do at higher levels and then some with a 1/20th of the effort

Heat damage is all around pretty good, with no real weaknesses, and a good proc that provides cc and damage simultaneously while leaving enemies' heads open for shooting.  You should not incorporate armor into this analysis because all damage types besides a couple will be almost totally neutered by armor of level 50+ heavy grineer, and even by light grineer if your damage type is penalized vs their armor type.  Corpus only start to resist Ember when multiple elemental aura eximus units are around, and you can even take out Ancient Disruptors with a Fireball headshot well into the 70s ( just shoot the purple guys.)

 Heat proc lasts a little longer than you say against humanoids, while being worse against chargers and moas:  Ignited enemies will also panic and flail around for a few seconds, exposing them from cover and preventing them from attacking; the length of the panic animation depends on enemy type: approximately 4 seconds for humanoids, 3 for most Infested, and 2 for MOAs and Chargers

Electric proc also does not stun an area, as you claim; it only stuns the enemy directly struck by the proccing hit; the damage does affect enemies within 5m, though.  

The other frames you posted are pretty different from Ember fundamentally, and suggesting that Ember be able to do what, say, Mesa does is laughable.  We shouldn't base our standards of gameplay around the careless design of things that do way, way too much damage or are otherwise outliers in an already easy game (not sure why Nezha is on that list, either.)

Edited March 7, 2018 by RealPandemonium

[Maka.Bones]

5 hours ago, RealPandemonium said:

WoF also has a strong damage output...at a very low energy cost.

Wait, how much do you play ember? and what build exactly? Not really low energy cost.... like *not at all*... Damage isn't high either, once you get to lvls 80+ it's just there/ok

Quote

Heat damage is all around pretty good, with no real weaknesses, and a good proc that provides cc and damage simultaneously while leaving enemies' heads open for shooting.

Ok man.... Now I know you're smoking something, or misinformed. Have you seen the elemental damage resistance/weakness charts, for each faction? OP is actually very correct, when saying that heat is currently the worst elemental damage type. Also, the damage heat procs do *is very little* when enemies are higher than lvl 40. Oh, and also... heat procs actually cause enemies to cover their face.  Idk where you're getting the "leaves their faces open for shooting" part.... :x

Quote

You should not incorporate armor into this analysis because all damage types besides a couple will be almost totally neutered by armor of level 50+ heavy grineer...

Again... What?! lol dude... ember's issue has *NEVER* been below lvl 50. So.... what exactly are you talking about?  And I know many other frames, builds, and weapons of all three IPS categories, and 4 different element combos, that can kill lvl 100 heavy grineers. So... that point is also null.

Quote

and you can even take out Ancient Disruptors with a Fireball headshot well into the 70s

First of all, they're infested... Infested was never really an issue for ember. Secondly: But y tho? Seriously.... why would I use energy to cast a fireball, when I can one-shot them, by shooting them in the face? I don't see why I'd take so long to cast a fireball, when my primary would've already had the ancient dead.... 

Quote

We shouldn't base our standards of gameplay around the careless design of things that do way, way too much damage or are otherwise outliers in an already easy game (not sure why Nezha is on that list, either.)

It sounds like you're saying "we shouldn't ask for our favorite frames to work well, and be fun to play" Also, what outliers? most warframes are strong AF. The outlier is Ember... where are you getting your examples from? 

*Nidus*

Rhino

*Nova*

Trinity - She doesn't die, and has infinite energy. Also has 2 hard stuns, one of which works on some bosses. Her blessing *fully* regenerates HP and shields of allies, pets, and NPCs, and it gives them 75% DR. Tell me she's not one of your so-called "outliers"

Mesa

Mirage

Razorwing Titania

Excalibro--in any build possible

Valkyr

Ivara

Wukong

Atlas (especially now)

Ash

Saryn

Volt - Might actually be the weakest one on this list. 

Frost

Nekros

Hydroid - He's actually not bad, ok? Decent CC capacity, does finisher damage with tentacle party

Mag - who has often been understated, and now is significantly better

Chroma - even with the latest "rebalance" he's still a powerhouse

Octavia 

*Nidus*

Harrow - Might be the most balanced in the bunch, because he actually requires some skill to make him super OP. 

Banshee 

Vauban - Mr. Can't touch this. Honestly, he should make babies with nova, since they're the best CC frames in the game atm.

Loki - Or so i've heard, but i've never used him besides MR fodder.

Oberon - same thing as loki

*Limbo - *edit* I had almost forgotten about limbo. Should marry octavia, as they're both the most OP frames in the game.

Equinox - Not for damage alone, but for what her/his entire kit is capable of. She also arguably has the best augments in the game. 

All of the ones i've suggested, perform *significantly* better than ember now........... Oh wait, what's this? I mentioned almost all the warframes? Yeah, idk much about nezha, nyx or Zephy, so I didn't mention them. Nezha didn't seem too bad though, and zephyr is fun to use--more so than Ember atm. Though both Nyx, and Nezha would definitely have an easier time completing sorties, than ember. 

 

So again, please tell me more about how 95% of the warframes are outliers, and ember is one of the "normal" ones? I'd really love to hear more :)

 

 

Idk where you've gotten your info from bro... But unless you're only talking about lvl40, and below; you're plain wrong on everything that I quoted you on. I'm sorry to be so blunt about it. Just please stop belittling OP's complaints/observations.  

 

*edit* I'm *not* saying that ember is complete trash/utter garbage. I've used her up to sortie 2, and only died once maybe. But she's definitely inferior to almost *every* other warframe. Especially in the damage category--you know, the one she's supposed to dominate in? But her biggest issue, isn't just the mediocre damage that she does... no. Because that would be tolerable, if she could live long enough to keep using more of her abilities.... it's how limited most of her abilities are, and how little protection/survivalbility they offer to her now. Most of all, how poorly her abilities synergize together.

Fireball - Love the new napalm mechanic, but the range can't be increased, and it doesn't scale with duration. Requires to be constantly spammed, if you want to use it s CC. So you're forced to burn a lot of energy.... the damage is also bad, unless you go full str (even then, and fully charged--which takes too long, even with natural talend & acceleran't augment--the damage is almost nonexistent against lvl 60+ enemies). Going full str also makes your casts cost more, so you're having to burn more energy to spam them.

Accelerant - It's a very limited effect on enemies.... and what I mean by this, is that you constantly need to re-apply it every 5-10 secs. It's rather annoying, i'd rather be charging up my fireball instead. The stun also doesn't work on the mobs who are capable of one-shotting ember, which is pretty sucky. And on the ones that it does work, they get out in about 3s--redundant when you're overwhelmed. 

Fireblast - The KD on this ability doesn't work on enemies that are already CCd by accelerant, and it also doesn't last long. So IDK why i'd ever use it over accelerant. Yeah, sure, the fire rings/damage can be stacked.... but the damage buff it provides, is pretty crap. I usually run viral/corrosion on my weapons, and I don't want radiation/blast to proc more frequently, thanks to the added heat damage.  It's also a very small circle, which limits ember to a narrow space to shoot through... Seems rather limiting. The damage of the ability itself, is also *very* insignificant in most cases.

WoF -  Well, i don't think it's as bad as other people complain about... It's sadly her best CC ability, followed by accelerant. But the new energy cost makes it a pain to use any of her other abilities, while keeping WoF active for the CC protection.

 

Ember isn't "bad"... she's just not practical, or very fun to play at higher lvl content anymore. The rest of her kit can't compensate well enough for the increase of cost to WoF, or the decreased range. 

Re-Edit: It's hard to keep enemies in a chained CC without either just spamming accelerant, or spamming fireballs, or simply using WoF. It's one ability spam, or another... That's incredibly boring. Especially because the stuns/cc/napalm (outside of wof) don't even last 10 seconds. They're so short, that it doesn't give most ember players enough time to reposition/regroup themselves mentally, before the enemy is already shooting at them again. That's why her survivability is often complained about, and why so many other players often relied on firequake + max range against higher lvl enemies.

 

Edited March 7, 2018 by Maka.Bones

[ComradeHX]

I like to see how many times you kill/coldproc yourself with Lenz when clearing room and trying to be faster than Ember.

Edited March 6, 2018 by ComradeHX

[RealPandemonium]

1 hour ago, Maka.Bones said:

snip

Max efficiency, max str with still max efficiency.  Stretch for range, and Flash Accelerant for the heat proc boost and ally buff.  I use primed continuity to offset the loss of duration from other mods.  

Heat procs don't cause enemies to cover their face, but Accelerant does.  While testing this, I found that some point the panic animation from being on fire has been reduced in length by ~50% on humanoids and MOAs.  Will report as a bug.  On the plus side, the new napalm effect on Fireball helps to reset the animation by constantly applying a heat proc.  because of the way Heat procs stack (or rather, how they don't stack,) it will also prolong the powerful Heat proc applied by a [charged] headshot, so that's cool.  

The status procs applied by your weapons will also boost Heat damage, so there's no dichotomy there.  One of the great things about Ember is that Fireball and WoF can all be used while firing/reloading your weapon, so the damage from those powers is not mutually exclusive from her weapon damage.

Accelerant is by far better than WoF for CC.  It's a reliable 5 second stun on humanoids and slightly less on others, and covers a wide radius.  

The second and third portions of your post are messy and opinionated, so I will refrain from trying to comment on those.

[Maka.Bones]

3 hours ago, RealPandemonium said:

Accelerant is by far better than WoF for CC.  It's a reliable 5 second stun on humanoids and slightly less on others, and covers a wide radius.  

While I don't think accelerant is bad, it doesn't affect all units. WoF affects more units than accelerant. The fact that it's only 5 seconds, and the duration doesn't increase with power duration, means that it needs to be reapplied every 5 seconds if you're overwhelmed (especially like in sorties). Which makes it cost 35 energy, every 5 seconds... Much more expensive than keeping up an active firequake aura, that can be reapplied to multiple enemies simply by bulletjumping. If I manage to kill the room faster than in 5secs, I won't need to reapply it to the new wave of enemies; it automatically does that. Accelerant doesn't though, which makes it tedious to work with. So I prefer using accelerant on a more *needed* basis, rather than just spamming. If I wanted to play "spam 2" i would just make a macro instead.... it's not very engaging, or entertaining though. 

Edit: Gonna repeat myself, to explain what i've noticed to be the ongoing issue with ember's kit (even though she's not bad, it's what I understand to be that's giving her such a negative gameplay experience): 

Quote

Re-Edit: It's hard to keep enemies in a chained CC without either just spamming accelerant, or spamming fireballs, or simply using WoF. It's one ability spam, or another... That's incredibly boring. Especially because the stuns/cc/napalm (outside of wof) don't even last 10 seconds. They're so short, that it doesn't give most ember players enough time to reposition/regroup themselves mentally, before the enemy is already shooting at them again. That's why her survivability is often complained about, and why so many other players often relied on firequake + max range against higher lvl enemies. 

Also, her abilities already become pretty expensive to use (unless running full efficiency like yourself). So if ppl are trying to balance using firequake, and spamming her other abilities, it makes them run out of energy fast. Ember has no reliable way to regain energy.... she has a passive that would do wonders in helping her do this, but it requires her to harm herself--and she can't even do that in most missions, because there isn't always a source of fire readily available. Because of that, her passive is not very dependable/reliable to use.

Edited March 7, 2018 by Maka.Bones