After Zephyr Prime, we'll probably be getting Limbo Prime (and I'm a bit worried)

[Cascoath]

It's a general consensus that the order of DE's prime releasing will most likely put Limbo next to be primed after Zephyr, but this brings a bit of a worry as well since that could also mean a potential rework in the coming months, and we all know how DE's "reworks" are really hit or miss.

 

And it especially worries me with a frame such as Limbo because it seems half of the feedback about Limbo seems to come from people who don't actually play the frame, but instead seems to be coming from those complaining about others playing the frame (and sometimes rightly so), and to be honest that worries me because a lot of Limbo players actually really dig his unique set up. And because of that, I feel like if Limbo does get revisited, it will most likely end up less than stellar for Limbo players. There seems to be an unspoken rule in the Warframe community that, if you like something DON'T TALK ABOUT IT. Because DE seems to have a habit of making changes without consulting the playerbase first (for anyone who ever played Paragon, you know how frustrating it is for huge sweeping changes to be made without player feedback first).

 

Now of course, don't get me wrong, a lot of changes DE makes are actually really good. Atlas is really fun now, and Zephyr's changes really helped the frame out a lot. However, as I said, Limbo is a different frame whose feedback is not only mixed due to the amount of complaints people have with inept Limbo players, but also one with a high learning curve. I myself had quite a few complaints about Limbo till I ended up playing with him more and more and gradually learned how to apply his abilities properly. Because of this, the feedback for Limbo is given from players all over that curve as well.

In short, I don't know if there is a way for DE to redo Limbo without tampering with what players love about him. Any improvements will be hard to make due to the feedback that always seems to be all over the place.  However, at the same time, if there is a legitimate way to improve him while retaining his overall feel and style of play (while also remaining somewhat balance), this would be the time to make them in the upcoming months leading to his very likely Prime release.

 

So what are your thoughts?

[bluepheonix13]

I mean, Limbo got his rework not too long ago, so I don't think there will be major changes for his Prime Variant.

[Sandhoof]

Limbo Prime -> No money for DE this time.

[HalfDarkShadow]

23 minutes ago, Cascoath said:

It's a general consensus that the order of DE's prime releasing will most likely put Limbo next to be primed after Zephyr

Eh, that's half right. The pairs of "male+male - female+female" order has for the most part been in line with debut order, but the pair in question has been switched a number of times. For example, if what you said was true, we would have gotten Zephyr months ago and Mirage would be this week.

Anyway, digressions aside, I think you're just worrying too much. I can completely understand the concern but it's never nearly as bad you (or anyone) ever makes it out to be.

Like when you mentioned this:

23 minutes ago, Cascoath said:

Because DE seems to have a habit of making changes without consulting the playerbase first

This has rarely been the case. As [DE]Scott (as well as other devs) in Devstream after Devstream said, that when it comes to re-visits, they look at tons of feedback Topics on here and on the Subreddit (which [DE]Scott] has even specifically named some of them as well), and from there he comes up with what works via what players would like to see generally addressed, what he/they would like to see addressed, all without deviating from the core design-philosophy from said Warframe that wont disrespect the players who do put the time and effort into them since they came out.

I mean how else would they "consult" them more than they already do? Literally every time they look a Warframe, they show it off on the Devstream, they take in all the time and feedback from what everyone saw, and then go from there with continued changes (either tweaks or new ability functions all together).

---

So again, I think you're worrying a tad much, so I wouldn't lose sleep over it. Especially since he already had an entire re-work not too long ago (:

Edited March 19, 2018 by HalfDarkShadow

[(PSN)ForNoPurpose]

at this point there is nothing DE can do that will make people NOT complain about Limbo. he is either OP or a interruption.

 

even if we get the ability to cross dimension damage rifted targets, allowing players out of the rift to use ranged weapons on stasised enemies in the rift you would still get complains about him being OP in some way or another despite other frames being able to effectively "stasis" enemies without the same restrictions on ranged attacks and dimensional nonsense (EX:Frosts Avalanche).

fact is, there are people who outright view Limbo as a disruption no matter how the frame is played due to prejudice. That's right, there are "Frame Racist" people who will never get over one or two bad experiences. DE cannot satisfy everyone with limbo because they have waited too long, and done too little in the eyes of some players.

 

despite Limbo being the strongest CC frame in the game, he has weaknesses that cripple him in certain situations.. the worst of which is having to INTENTIONALLY GIMP his abilities in some fashion to avoid pissing off other players. add in the fact that Nullifier bubbles leaves him entirely unable to act against some targets and his extremely squishy nature when not using his CC abilities and you have a frame that you either play boringly, or stupidly or not at all in the eyes of other players who dislike him.

Done right limbo can handle most situations, but ultimately other players have to play "around" him in order to play themselves and for a lot of people it seems that is ok or acceptable.

 

so... what can DE that doesnt utterly destroy the identity of the frame at this point?

Edited March 19, 2018 by (PS4)ForNoPurpose

[BiancaRoughfin]

12 minutes ago, Cascoath said:

And it especially worries me with a frame such as Limbo because it seems half of the feedback about Limbo seems to come from people who don't actually play the frame, but instead seems to be coming from those complaining about others playing the frame (and sometimes rightly so), and to be honest that worries me because a lot of Limbo players actually really dig his unique set up.

The problem with Limbo is that he can literally take all the fun from other players in the mission or completely compromise the mission in some aspects depending on how much of a #$&(% the person using him is.

Wile i have no problem with players covering a large area with the Rift, it does trigger me when said player spams banish on enemies outside the skill and/or uses Stasis. This prevents players outside the rift from killing those mobs and forcing them to walk into the Rift to try in argo them wile Stasis many times prevents even that from being done wile forcing players within the rift to go Melee.

I have had countless M-Def and Defense missions fail due to a Limbo player abusing of Stasis who would walk in with a full range build and open the rift, immediately activating Stasis and not bothering to kill the mobs with the Argument that "Its a Defense mission, we dont need to kill anything" mobs then start to cluster around the rift and it slowly fails to hold them with Stasis, soon causing groups too large to be contained to start moving in and overwhelming the players inside.

So i really hope some reworks come before his Prime, at least to make it so Stasis doesnt affect allied projectiles.

[(PSN)thefallenloser]

8 minutes ago, HalfDarkShadow said:

I mean how would they "consult" them more than they already do? Literally every time they look a Warframe, they show it off on the Devstream, they take in all the time and feedback from what everyone saw, and then go from there with continued changes (either tweaks or new ability functions all together).

Hey, you know when else they did this? With the Ember Revisit... oh, wait...

[sleepychewbacca]

1 minute ago, (PS4)ForNoPurpose said:

at this point there is nothing DE can do that will make people NOT complain about Limbo.

 

even if we get the ability to cross dimension damage rifted targets, allowing players out of the rift to use ranged weapons on stasised enemies in the rift you would still get complains about him being OP in some way or another despite other frames being able to effectively "stasis" enemies without the same restrictions on ranged attacks and dimensional nonsense (EX:Frosts Avalanche).

fact is, there are people who outright view Limbo as a disruption no matter how the frame is played due to prejudice. That's right, there are "Frame Racist" people who will never get over one or two bad experiences. DE cannot satisfy everyone with limbo because they have waited too long, and done too little in the eyes of some players.

 

despite Limbo being the strongest CC frame in the game, he has weaknesses that cripple him in certain situations.. the worst of which is having to INTENTIONALLY GIMP his abilities in some fashion to avoid pissing off other players. add in the fact that Nullifier bubbles leaves him entirely unable to act against some targets and his extremely squishy nature when not using his CC abilities and you have a frame that you either play boringly, or stupidly or not at all in the eyes of other players who dislike him.

Done right limbo can handle most situations, but ultimately other players have to play "around" him in order to play themselves and for a lot of people it seems that is ok or acceptable.

 

so... what can DE that doesnt utterly destroy the identity of the frame at this point?

If cross dimensional damage for Limbo becomes a thing, you'll most likely have this scenario. 

The community will never be pleased. If anyone remembers Scott taking Rhino's Iron Skin, and matching it to community feedback, only to end up facing a lot of backlash, which went on and on. I like to joke that experience was what turned Scott into the rough nerfhammer person he is now. 

For every one person with an opinion, there will always be someone in the community who feels different. Like the Ember nerf situation, and the maiming strike debate that's been going on. 

[(PSN)ForNoPurpose]

Exactly, once there is a "problem" it will always be a "problem" no matter how its "Fixed"

 

Ultimately the only possible good outcome is the one that pisses off the fewest number of people..

[MrTitan123]

I’d say one of the simple solutions for limbo is to remove the projectile freezing for weapons. By the time someone shoots, they realize that they can just melee. After that, the projectile they left midair completely misses, equaling a wasted shot. Another suggestion would be to allow limbo to banish and unbanish from either plane. Allow banish on players to be toggled.

 

just a few suggestions.

[Arniox]

16 minutes ago, bluepheonix13 said:

I mean, Limbo got his rework not too long ago, so I don't think there will be major changes for his Prime Variant.

This. Limbo already got a rework. He doesn't need another one. I think he's currently pretty good right now. People just don't remember that you can roll out of his banish. Although, his bubble might do with a rework for player interaction

[(PSN)ForNoPurpose]

i like the idea of using Limbos Passive generated portals as a endless banish for allies who enter it. so they can take advantage of the rift on their own accord without relying on a temporary "buff" that they have to request to even get and can still leave at will, in the same way you can already exit banished state as a non limbo.

[SneakyErvin]

Limbo needs to be changed into something idiot-proof. A player that knows how to play Limbo, aswell as players knowing how to play around a Limbo trivializes most things. A player that doesnt know what he is doing with Limbo, aswell as players not knowing how to play aorund Limbo does the exact opposite. Sadly there are too many people that dont know how to play him to be beneficial to the team, just as there are many that dont know how to benefit from Limbo when played correctly.

[torsoreaper]

Love limbo myself but there definitely needs to be a "limbo tutorial".  I once had a guy banish me off the hacking console in a rescue sortie (to help me? or so that he could hack it himself?) and he literally solved it with 0:00 left on the clock.  If we failed because this idiot can't Limbo I would have been pretty mad.

 

[Illithar]

40 minutes ago, torsoreaper said:

Love limbo myself but there definitely needs to be a "limbo tutorial".  I once had a guy banish me off the hacking console in a rescue sortie (to help me? or so that he could hack it himself?) and he literally solved it with 0:00 left on the clock.  If we failed because this idiot can't Limbo I would have been pretty mad.

 

I think some issues people have with Limbo could be solved if they tweaked the Rift Plane a bit. Allow interaction with objects across the Rift. Pick up and insert data masses, hack terminals, etc. Weirdly, you can interact with the 'double switch' doors while in the Rift right now. Not sure if that is intentional. This would also increase Limbo's utility a bit, allowing him to protect teammates without completely interrupting them.

Also, someone else mentioned a tutorial. I think this could be added in by tweaking Limbo's quest. Adding a mission to the end that requires you use Limbo to solve it, using his various abilities. Maybe not the best idea, but it could be a start.

Also, Stasis is the only ability Limbo has that does not have an augment. Having an augment that allows friendly weapons fire to work while under stasis I think would be a good. Admittedly, players would still have to use the augment, but it would allow the original utility to remain, while also allowing for the removal of some players frustrations.

[Orblit]

An augment that allows allies to shoot through stasis while gimping limbo himself to melee?
(Enemies hit would be knocked out of the stasis freeze)

Edited March 19, 2018 by Orblit

[aswitz87]

2 minutes ago, Orblit said:

An augment that allows allies to shoot through stasis while gimping limbo himself to melee?

I would be fine with that even playing him.  Help allies is always a plus.

[SweatyFalcon]

I also just realized I can banish that drone we have to escort in the plains.

Going on topic here, I think Limbo is fine where he is. The people who get mad at him are people who are ignorant and unwilling to adapt. Best thing to do to teach them about Limbo is let them suffer without your help.
Ex. Sortie Defense, banishing the dude negates any damage. Don't banish him for like 5 waves.
 

[ljmadruga]

1 hour ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

I have had countless M-Def and Defense missions fail due to a Limbo player abusing of Stasis who would walk in with a full range build and open the rift, immediately activating Stasis and not bothering to kill the mobs with the Argument that "Its a Defense mission, we dont need to kill anything" mobs then start to cluster around the rift and it slowly fails to hold them with Stasis, soon causing groups too large to be contained to start moving in and overwhelming the players inside.

 

Except that’s not at all how stasis works. The number of enemies that can be trapped by stasis is uncapped. The number of projectiles from allied guns is.

If enemies started moving in early, then that means it was an ally (first suspect: mirage) or a sentinel that was firing their weapon inside cataclysm.

Edit: I’m a Limbo main. Even I recognize its a bad idea to bring limbo to defense. It’s better to bring an offensive frame for that.

Edited March 19, 2018 by ljmadruga

[(PSN)ToastyFairy01]

Unpopular opinion: I like Limbo's current form and it's the strongest he'll ever be. His CC is literally the strongest defensive one and is utterly unrivaled. There is not a single frame that can come even close to Limbo's CC.

 

My Limbo has 88 seconds of Cataclysm and 80+ seconds for Stasis. I bring my Limbo out to utterly trivialize Rescue, Mobile Defense, Sortie Defense and extreme Defense and often end up carrying people or solo with only taking one or two hits. The only thing that stops Limbo from being godly are only two things: Nullifiers and ignorant team mates.

[cookieknife]

Don’t care don’t care at all what “limbo players” half to say, ever change in warframe needs to happen to make the game better and more enjoyable for the people playing and looking at it from afar

limbo stopping all gun usage is horse shhh and should be changed 

[PsiWarp]

I hope they look at Limbo again, even if it's mainly because of prime sales. Though I made a whole feedback thread about tons of different changes that tie together to tackle the disruptive elements of his kit, I think the most likely ability and most minimalist changes I would expect from DE are probably focused on Stasis. Changes that encourage Limbos to use the prepping projectiles aspect to the ability more often rather than have the Rift paused 24/7 (so allies' gunshots do something earlier, not after 1 minute+ of Stasis)

Limbos have it up all the time because it makes the Rift safe. If Stasis is up all the time it's effectively a melee-and-abilities-only restriction on you and allies in the Rift, so I can see why people would hate to be in the Rift more than they already do. Rolling out of Banish when you realize you got the buff from his portal or his 1 is like second nature to the playerbase by now, originally because they can't use weapons against material-bound enemies, but now with the added reason they can't fight as effectively against Rift-bound enemies when 2/3 of their weapons don't give timely damage results/kills.

Devs took the right step toward Rift team-friendliness when they made pickups in Cataclysm collectible & holdable. Now there's just the issue of Banish and Cataclysm interrupting in-progress hacks, that seem like an unnecessary drawback to keep so players can mess with one another.

For those interested in the comprehensive concept:

 

[Dark_Chroma_Prime]

At least Chroma prime appears after cylinder hat prime

Edited March 19, 2018 by Dark_Roxas

[Jeon-Rammbo]

My thoughts?  Zephyr and Atlas are probably the two most useless frames in the entire game, before and after.  They may be fun, but the fun only lasted, maybe a day for me.  They certainly are not go to for anything, in any situation, as far as I can tell.  My opinion and I'm glad others are enjoying them - they just aint for me. 

Maybe someone can send a PM and show me what I'm doing wrong!  

Limbo Prime would be awesome!  He has some much versatility and I'm certain a Prime would only make him stronger.

[Jeon-Rammbo]

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Limbo needs to be changed into something idiot-proof. A player that knows how to play Limbo, aswell as players knowing how to play around a Limbo trivializes most things. A player that doesnt know what he is doing with Limbo, aswell as players not knowing how to play aorund Limbo does the exact opposite. Sadly there are too many people that dont know how to play him to be beneficial to the team, just as there are many that dont know how to benefit from Limbo when played correctly.

Has a point, maybe.