Limbo: Before the Inevitable Rework, a quick QoL

[Sintag]

IN GENERAL

So, a few small things would be really, really nice.  First off, let us hack, pick items up, or use the Datamass while in the Rift.  These are all really simple things, but a bad or trolly Limbo can hold the game hostage by repeatedly Banishing the datamass holder, and the other two are basic things that really should've been there from U15: Day One.

 

POWERS

BANISH

I feel like Banish should've been something akin to Quiver, where you can pick between only hitting one target (The pre-Rework Banish) or the current small AoE.  Tap to switch, hold to cast.  I don't want to pull that Corrupted Bombard, his three friends, the Loki cutting up said friends, and his little dog too, into the Rift.  Just the Bombard.

STASIS

So I hate Stasis.  Rather, I hate these facets about it.

• You're not immediately told 'hey, Stasis is active' unless you are the Stasis-ing Limbo.
• It affects every instance of the Rift, even other Limbos and their Rifts.
• The only alternative to melee and powers is outright crashing the entire Rift, which really isn't ideal for anyone; It removes a safe area to duck into if things are getting too hectic and denies Limbo basically his entire kit (it's also a waste of ammo, let's be real here).

So I propose a few changes be made to Stasis.

• Display a notification, perhaps as a Buff, that reads 'Stasis' and display the time remaining underneath it.
• Make it not affect other Rifts.  Why does it affect other Rifts, anyway?  I mean yes, there is just one Rift Plane, but I'd think Limbo, the guy who can nonchalantly slide into that plane, would be able to de-stasis his instances of the Rift.
• Make it only affect enemies caught in that specific Rift.  Not allies.  Just enemies.  We don't need allied bullets stopped (and this also takes care of allies intentionally trying to crash the Rift.)

As always, let me know what you think!

Edited April 1, 2018 by Sintag

[paul5473]

Another nice QOL that would be nice is in MD's if limbo could use the datamass in the rift

[Hyro1]

But limbo already had his rework, why would get another so soon

[PsiWarp]

Because there exists only THE Rift Plane, not various different pocket dimensions that multiple Limbos create, so they have no choice but to share. It's probably why we can't customize our energy color to highlight banished enemies differently. Only the black and white flames tells you it's a neutral effect.

IMO I don't think Stasis needs to be Rift-wide. Just enemies inside your Cataclysm and inside your Affinity Range (50 meters) should be enough. That way multiple Limbos either go off and claim their own section of the battlefield, or share control when near each other.

[Sintag]

2 minutes ago, Hyro1 said:

But limbo already had his rework, why would get another so soon

Because as of right now, there's actually a lot going wrong with Limbo, to the point where people have, repeatedly, said they'll leave lobbies if they see a Limbo or asking to delete Limbo from the game - That's how bad his reputation is at the moment, and if he's not getting a second Rework to address the critical flaws of working with a team, the least we can ask for is to smooth out the roughest edges.

[Rawbeard]

so everything is the same as before the rework because people still can't "git gud" or "l2p". I don't think that is good enough reason for DE to even put another rework on the schedule.

[Femuru]

limbo has to be one of the most hated frames if they dont give him a complete overhaul by his prime version im pretty sure there a chunk of ppl thats gonna stay away from warframe for a good 3 months idc if a there are a few ppl who play limbo right cause there are so many ppl who play limbo wrong or trolls who do it on purpose that its their teammates who suffer for it and thats not right at all 

[TKDancer]

4 hours ago, Rawbeard said:

so everything is the same as before the rework because people still can't "git gud" or "l2p". I don't think that is good enough reason for DE to even put another rework on the schedule.

as a limbo main, limbo being my most played frame out of over 1000 hours:

 

there is literally no gitting gud or learning to play and no its not the same because stasis is a thing now

 

 

limbo is an annoyance when one joins ur team and you arent playing one of the frames that ignore the rift (mesa, excal, ivara), he doesnt need a rework, he needs QoL so people stop leaving lobbies when they see a limbo

[Rawbeard]

59 minutes ago, TKDancer said:

there is literally no gitting gud or learning to play and no its not the same because stasis is a thing now

stasis is literally a git gut/l2p situation. literally!

[TKDancer]

6 minutes ago, Rawbeard said:

stasis is literally a git gut/l2p situation. literally!

alrighty

[Rawbeard]

1 hour ago, TKDancer said:

alrighty

SPOILER: use melee.

[yles9056]

More indications for Rift and Stasis would be nice. But I don't think small buff icons are enough. I'd prefer more obvious UI icon similar to Harrow's Covenant timer.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

1) I agree.  I think the change was made forever ago because a limbo trvialized spy.  But he already does anyway.  So a revert should happen.

2) Yes i'd love that.  I personally miss targeting individual units to handle on my own.  I also really dislike how I have to be on the same plane as them to banish them.  But considering that he can stop enemies forever and be in rift forever I get why you have to be on the same plane.

3) I don't think allies continue to fire because they're not aware of stasis.  I think they do so because there is a stigma with limbo and people would rather ruin his day than see if what limbo is doing is actually being harmful.  I'm unsure how they could make more people aware without making things cluttered or annoying everytime he turns it on or off.

4) I think the projectile freezing thing was a cool idea.  But i'm not sure it has a practical use.  I think it more serves as a balancing point for limbo having that much control over an enemy.  But melee weapons can be made to be absurdly strong.  So is it really helping balance wise?  I think if a change were to be made they can just treat banished and stopped enemies like nyx's mind controlled enemy or niduses link.  where it still takes damage from allies but it doesn't die until the ability duration ends.  Of course this means limbo could stall the game/spawns out.  So idk.  I deff don't like the idea of allies being able to end my ability.  But i'm not sure there is a fix for that.

[NoLazyShadow]

Just remove him. Even after rework he is a troll frame

[Sintag]

7 hours ago, yles9056 said:

More indications for Rift and Stasis would be nice. But I don't think small buff icons are enough. I'd prefer more obvious UI icon similar to Harrow's Covenant timer.

That's actually what I was thinking of.  But the thicker outlines and ambient noise already do a really good job of letting people know they're in the Rift; Stasis is a lot less obvious, and I feel like it should be obvious whether or not everything's stopped.

 

9 hours ago, Rawbeard said:

stasis is literally a git gut/l2p situation. literally!

It would, however, be nice to know when Stasis has occurred so I don't do this thing called 'waste my ammo'.  It's not about 'git gud', it's about 'Why wasn't this here from day one of the rework?'

6 hours ago, NoLazyShadow said:

Just remove him. Even after rework he is a troll frame

I'm not a developer, and good luck repaying the Reactors/Forma/Exilus Adapters/Focus Lenses people have used on their Limbos.  As well as the plat for the slot to hold him.

[EinheriarJudith]

3 hours ago, Sintag said:

I'm not a developer, and good luck repaying the Reactors/Forma/Exilus Adapters/Focus Lenses people have used on their Limbos.  As well as the plat for the slot to hold him.

you mean like how they do with scripts. its not hard for them. they need to not add mechanics that you would see in a tactical shooter in a horde survival. in the time that limbo can freeze enemies i could have killed them 10x over with my gun. disabling my guns so he can freeze enemies when it isn't needed is over excessive use of CC. if people cant play him using the full extent of his powers because it interferes with other team members, he needs a rework.

his mechanics are quite good but they do not belong in warframe. its something you would see in a single player RPG with him as the MC/Protagonist. his kit i could see in mass effect multiplayer because its has a tactical shooter style.

Edited April 1, 2018 by EinheriarJudith

[Pizzarugi]

14 hours ago, Rawbeard said:

SPOILER: use melee.

This same tired reason not to fix Limbo's trolling.

Not everyone likes melee, nobody should be able to dictate when they can or can't use their guns except the players using them. That is not up to Limbos to decide. Come up with a better excuse.

Inb4 "Use your powers"

I'd like to see Nyx, Loki or Vauban kill anything past level 50 with their abilities. And no, nobody should be forced to play DPS frames like Mesa, Nidus or Ember just to get around Limbo's trolling. If people have to change themselves to work with Limbo or Limbo has to play a very specific build not to interfere with his team, the problem is on him.

3 hours ago, EinheriarJudith said:

you mean like how they do with scripts. its not hard for them. they need to not add mechanics that you would see in a tactical shooter in a horde survival. in the time that limbo can freeze enemies i could have killed them 10x over with my gun. disabling my guns so he can freeze enemies when it isn't needed is over excessive use of CC. if people cant play him using the full extent of his powers because it interferes with other team members, he needs a rework.

his mechanics are quite good but they do not belong in warframe. its something you would see in a single player RPG with him as the MC/Protagonist. his kit i could see in mass effect multiplayer because its has a tactical shooter style.

The mechanics of his abilities need tweaking, not full blown reworks. Stopping him from outright freezing other peoples' bullets would be a significant improvement.

Edited April 1, 2018 by Pizzarugi

[Rawbeard]

1 hour ago, Pizzarugi said:

This same tired reason not to fix Limbo's trolling.

it's not trolling just because you do not know how to handle it.

[Pizzarugi]

Just now, Rawbeard said:

it's not trolling just because you do not know how to handle it.

It is if someone is forcing me to use my melee when I want to use my amprex.

And clearly you've never seen Limbo banish players using consoles or dropping cataclysm on them to lock it down.

[(PSN)mahoshonenfox]

On PS4, no one complains if there's a Limbo in their group. I play Limbo all the time and he's fine. When I drop Cataclysm, people know to switch to melee even though I never activated Stasis. It IS a good idea to let people know that Stasis is active if they're in the rift. Maybe an indicator on the upper right that would show up if you're in the rift and time is stopped.

That's the only change Limbo needs. A good qol update. There is no update to bad players like Frost spamming Snow Globe everywhere stopping everyone from shooting things or Inaros spamming his Sandstorm so no one can kill anything. Limbo's no different. He just has a higher learning curve because he requires discretion on all 4 of his powers instead of just 1 or 2.

[TKDancer]

On 4/1/2018 at 2:23 AM, Rawbeard said:

SPOILER: use melee.

spoiler: forcing people to use a weapon they dont want to use at the moment is bad

 

its not a hard concept to grasp

 

a frame that disrupts other people's gunplay and that can be hindered by allies insisting on firing their weapons with stasis on(and eventually dispelling it) isnt good design

[Rawbeard]

2 hours ago, TKDancer said:

spoiler: forcing people to use a weapon they dont want to use at the moment is bad

you can apply that logic to pretty much every support power. you know how #*!%ing bad it is for a self damage reliant Chroma to be forced to be invulnerable by a Harrow? I have to leave every group with a Harrow because of that! just... seriously, git gud if you don't want to use melee, use powers. if you don't want to use melee, nor powers, ignore and move on. this game doesn't revolve around you and if another player doesn't change their way of life to fit your current mood doesn't mean he or his frame is trolling you. you are just an entitled brat too angry to think about what is happening around him, regurgitating crap on the forums we see every other day. I bet you also feel like YOU are the one that will finally reach DE. you will make that one point that never was made before. just... no. and they don't need to hear it again and again to maybe notice there is a problem, because DE is not a bunch of hacks, they actually look and their statistics and make decisions based on actual situations and events, not your hurt feelings.

get over it. get good.

[EinheriarJudith]

13 minutes ago, Rawbeard said:

you can apply that logic to pretty much every support power. you know how #*!%ing bad it is for a self damage reliant Chroma to be forced to be invulnerable by a Harrow? I have to leave every group with a Harrow because of that! just... seriously, git gud if you don't want to use melee, use powers. if you don't want to use melee, nor powers, ignore and move on. this game doesn't revolve around you and if another player doesn't change their way of life to fit your current mood doesn't mean he or his frame is trolling you. you are just an entitled brat too angry to think about what is happening around him, regurgitating crap on the forums we see every other day. I bet you also feel like YOU are the one that will finally reach DE. you will make that one point that never was made before. just... no. and they don't need to hear it again and again to maybe notice there is a problem, because DE is not a bunch of hacks, they actually look and their statistics and make decisions based on actual situations and events, not your hurt feelings.

get over it. get good.

hahaha what? no you cant apply that to any support power. no one complains when they get healed or get a damage buff like roar. no one complains about sonar. you have some pretty broken nonsense logic. no what is going to happen is DE will do something about limbo you can bet on it. keep being that limbo fanboy that you are the only feelings that will be hurt in the end is your own. this is what you will need to get over.

Edited April 2, 2018 by EinheriarJudith

[Azamagon]

I'd suggest this (both attempting to remove a lot of trolling and making him more diverse + damagesupportive):

0) Rift Walk (Passives and Rift itself)

• Standing still and "rolling" now warps you back and forth between Rift/Real world, without doing the forward dash. To actually do the forward dash into the Rift, you have to move forward while "rolling".
• Melee channeling allows anyone (Limbo as well as any other ally) to attack enemies crossrift!
• Being in the Rift still allows you to pick up items (both regular loot and manual pickups like ayatan stars, syndicate marks, excavator batteries etc) as well as allows you to hack consoles, start MD-termnials, activate elevators, use life support etc. (No more mission trolling)
• Enemies, however, are not allowed to interact with anything: They cannot sound the alarm / lock doors, cannot use ramparts and so on (That is, unless the alarm / rampart etc is inside Cataclysm).

1) Banish

• Tap for single target (requires precise targetting), Hold for AoE (does not require precise targetting).
• Tap-version can be used to bring enemies/allies in to either side, regardless of the casting Limbo's state.
• Hold-version's AoE always banishes everything into the same state as Limbo currently is in (this is likely quite a bit less trolling-potent).
• Augment: Haven Rift Touch -> Now places a generous heal-over-time (instead of an instant amount of healing), which lingers even if you dispel Banish by rolling etc. (Reduces the need to spam it). Additionaly, on enemies it could maybe do something as well, like a decent DoT?

2) Stasis

• Only affects the casting Limbo. Doesn't affect other allies' projectiles. Doesn't affect other Limbos' Rift/Stasis.

3) Rift Surge (Complete rework, due to changing Banish)

• Now a multi-effect ability, costing 50 energy on initial cast.
• Starts as a selfbuff. When cast, it spawns 2/3/4/5 particles which orbit around Limbo (similar in graphics to Rift Surge 1.0). Has a high duration.
• Each particle is consumed if Limbo is struck by an enemy attack, granting you 90% damage reduction against that attack and for another 1 second afterward (during which another particle cannot be consumed). Damage-reduction is unaffected by Ability Strength. Shielding is affected by Ability Duration.
• For each particle Limbo remaining has on him, he also gains a 10% weapon damage buff (stacking additively with Serration and such?), thus granting him 50% damage amp when he has all 5 particles on him. This is affected by Ability Strength!
• Holdcasting alllows him to refresh the selfbuff (with full energycost).
• While particles remain on Limbo, it can be cast when targetting an enemy (which consumes all particles), linking the targetted enemy with X other nearby enemies (X being how many particles Limbo had left). All these enemies are linked for 10/15/20/25 seconds, and they now share 50% of damage taken (affected by Power Strength, capped at 75%), but shares 100% of status-effects, crossrift and all! The act of linking enemies together also staggers all of them.
  Note: Only one enemy-link effect can exist at a time. Casting a new one removes the old one. However, Limbo can have his selfbuff active even while an enemy-link is active.
• Augment: Rift Torrrent -> Revamped: When an enemy linked via Rift Surge is killed, the link moves over to a new unaffected target if it is within X meters of the dieing target, for 50/65/80/100% of the remaining duration.
  (Makes the link-effect a lot more efficient in big groups, and allows him to support with quite a lot of offensive utility).

NOTE: Since Banish was suggested to have a more smooth handling (including AoE-banishment), Rift Surge felt unnecessary. Thus: A tool to both let him fight very briefly outside of the Rift, as well as a tool to augment his fighting power, in all planes! That, while still being a tool best used while in the Rift. Pretty neat, I must say :)
I think giving him a versatile ability like this would IMMENSLY improve his "fun"-potential, as well as making him more useful for the team (especially with the augment).

4) Cataclysm

• Leaving Cataclysm no longer dispels Rift Walk
• Being in the Catalysm still allows you to hack consoles, start MD-termnials, activate elevators, use life support etc. (No more mission trolling).
• Nuking addition (as the current stuff is rather weak): When an enemy is killed within Cataclysm, X% of its health and shields are added to your Cataclysm's collapse-damage! This promotes killing enemies manually and swiftly, rather than just "waiting it out". This bonus damage could be displayed as a buff (similar to Equinox's Maim).
  The "X" could potentially scale with Power Strength (but needs a cap), allowing Limbo to be built as an active nuker.
• Augment: Cataclysmic Continuum -> Additionally, the augment causes Cataclysm to no longer shrink! (Adds a bit of a playstyle-change, along with fitting the augment's current bonus very well. Also fits very nicely with the suggested store-health-nuking-power).

Edited April 2, 2018 by Azamagon

[TKDancer]

2 hours ago, Rawbeard said:

you can apply that logic to pretty much every support power. you know how #*!%ing bad it is for a self damage reliant Chroma to be forced to be invulnerable by a Harrow? I have to leave every group with a Harrow because of that! just... seriously, git gud if you don't want to use melee, use powers. if you don't want to use melee, nor powers, ignore and move on. this game doesn't revolve around you and if another player doesn't change their way of life to fit your current mood doesn't mean he or his frame is trolling you. you are just an entitled brat too angry to think about what is happening around him, regurgitating crap on the forums we see every other day. I bet you also feel like YOU are the one that will finally reach DE. you will make that one point that never was made before. just... no. and they don't need to hear it again and again to maybe notice there is a problem, because DE is not a bunch of hacks, they actually look and their statistics and make decisions based on actual situations and events, not your hurt feelings.

get over it. get good.

except ur example is flawed as the harrow doesnt have complete control over the invulnerability period and vex is now recastable, limbo can refresh stasis and cataclysm whenever he wants, or use banish + rift surge to completely prevent allies from interacting with enemies unless they are one of the frames that can bypass the rift(excal, ivara, mesa)

 

there is no getting good, getting good literally makes no sense in this context

 

there is nothing to get better at, it is simply a hindrance that can be kept up indefinitely that leaves the majority of the player base with a strong dislike for a very good(but not team friendly) frame to the point where MANY instantly leave a mission the moment they see a limbo

 

you are not contributing anything to this conversation, you call me an entitled brat for simply acknowledging a frame's flaw in a cooperative game, despite already stating that limbo is my most played frame, i bought him with plat when i started playing and got a 75% discount on my 1st day and still play him constantly after over 1000 hours

 

i have no hopes of DE listening to me, im not even the guy who made the thread, im just putting my 2 cents out here

Edited April 2, 2018 by TKDancer