Countries starting to make 'Lootbox' mechanics in game Illegal. Will this affect Warframe?

[Am0rph15]

On 2018-04-27 at 4:08 PM, rune_me said:

Belgium is just another EU member nation, though. They have no more say over EU laws than any other (and much less than larger nations like France or Germany).

"They have no more say over EU laws than any other (and much less than larger nations like France or Germany)". True. The point is that the legislators of all 28 EU member nations are clustered in Brussels and interact and see first-hand what happens in Belgium.

[catastrophy]

26 minutes ago, Am0rph15 said:

It will be interesting to see how this situation develops in court and what precedents are set. Overwatch features both earned and bought loot boxes and is included in the list of games cited by Belgum. Belgium's statements suggest it is demanding that all loot boxes be removed from Overwatch. Clarifying statements may appear confirming whether the demand is restricted to bought loot boxes or applies to all, even those earned through progression. FIFA's in-game items can be sold via third-party websites. Those sites are being taken into consideration since players use them to cash-out items gained in-game despite the sites being outside EA.

I've read the rundown on the Belgian plans in a Belgian news site and it was about paid (real cash) wagers. Now I wouldn't be surprised if the jaws of legislation might include in-game earnings in future rulings or the news site quoting wrong but it doesn't look like that right now. I guess if you sell an "in-game-earned item" for real cash it would be recognised  as "bought with real cash" before the law and thus constitute a wager for real money. I doubt it would matter how it came into existence, it will matter how people acquire it - whether with real cash or not.

[rune_me]

7 minutes ago, catastrophy said:

I've read the rundown on the Belgian plans in a Belgian news site and it was about paid (real cash) wagers. Now I wouldn't be surprised if the jaws of legislation might include in-game earnings in future rulings or the news site quoting wrong but it doesn't look like that right now. I guess if you sell an "in-game-earned item" for real cash it would be recognised  as "bought with real cash" before the law and thus constitute a wager for real money. I doubt it would matter how it came into existence, it will matter how people acquire it - whether with real cash or not.

Actually I think you got it backwards. Currently, as I understand it, the law is not about costing real money, but that what you can gain from lootboxes can be traded for real money. That was why Battle Front 2 (which ironically was what got authorities interested in the first place) has not been flagged as illegal, but something like Fifa and CS:GO has. 

However, you could easily make the argument that platinum is the same as real money, since it can be bought for real money and since earning platinum in game saves you from spending real money. But that would be up to a courtroom/judge to decide if someone ever pressed that case. Politicians writes the laws, but at the end of the day it is up to judges and lawyers to figure out just what the hell that writing actually means.

[(PSN)thowed]

No because they were smart enough to have player controlled loot boxes (rivens) lol.

[catastrophy]

1 hour ago, rune_me said:

Actually I think you got it backwards. Currently, as I understand it, the law is not about costing real money, but that what you can gain from lootboxes can be traded for real money. That was why Battle Front 2 (which ironically was what got authorities interested in the first place) has not been flagged as illegal, but something like Fifa and CS:GO has. 

However, you could easily make the argument that platinum is the same as real money, since it can be bought for real money and since earning platinum in game saves you from spending real money. But that would be up to a courtroom/judge to decide if someone ever pressed that case. Politicians writes the laws, but at the end of the day it is up to judges and lawyers to figure out just what the hell that writing actually means.

The gist of it was: You pay real money for an item. You don't know what you'll get with the item since it is a lootbox. There is chance involved. It constitutes an "inzet" (wager) and is therefore "kansspel" (chance game). Nothing in the article was about whether you could sell it away for cash - it was pretty much about "what do you get when you pay money".

[Vilemyre]

Affect as in "take out the gambling related mechanics" then yeah?

 

Otherwise this wont affect warframe in the slightest. DE's profits come from plat itself and the rest can be spent on whatever the player wants.

Edited May 11, 2018 by VermillionScourge

[rune_me]

15 minutes ago, catastrophy said:

The gist of it was: You pay real money for an item. You don't know what you'll get with the item since it is a lootbox. There is chance involved. It constitutes an "inzet" (wager) and is therefore "kansspel" (chance game). Nothing in the article was about whether you could sell it away for cash - it was pretty much about "what do you get when you pay money".

But then the article was wrong. Because as I said, otherwise Battlefront 2, which were one of the games to be looked into, would not have gotten a free pass. And it did.

[catastrophy]

1 minute ago, rune_me said:

But then the article was wrong. Because as I said, otherwise Battlefront 2, which were one of the games to be looked into, would not have gotten a free pass. And it did.

The lootboxes in Battlefront 2 were removed, no?

[rune_me]

3 minutes ago, catastrophy said:

The lootboxes in Battlefront 2 were removed, no?

No they are back. They are just "only" cosmetics now.

Edited May 11, 2018 by rune_me

[DYSEQTA]

On 2018-04-26 at 10:17 PM, Pent_ said:

I certainly hope they don't make lootboxes illegal. Since when did the government get to decide what's allowed in games?

Such ignorance...

[catastrophy]

5 minutes ago, rune_me said:

No they are back. They are just "only" cosmetics now.

I think they weren't back when they were considering the policy. If things have changed again with BF2 and they offer paid looty boxes for cash they'd come under investigation again. There is no free pass.

[rune_me]

13 minutes ago, catastrophy said:

I think they weren't back when they were considering the policy. If things have changed again with BF2 and they offer paid looty boxes for cash they'd come under investigation again. There is no free pass.

Don't know if they will be investigated again. They were just one of the original four games investigated (The others being CS:Go, Fifa 18 and Overwatch), and the only one of those that got a thumps up. So for now they are in the clear.

Edited May 11, 2018 by rune_me

[catastrophy]

8 minutes ago, rune_me said:

Don't know if they will be investigated again. They were just one of the original four games investigated (The others being CS:Go, Fifa 18 and Overwatch), and the only one of those that got a thumps up. So for now they are in the clear.

When circumstances change and they fulfill different criteria before the law they will become investigated again. Come the policy in effect and that. And if it need someone filing a complaint to get the mill of law running - I'm pretty sure there will be someone to do so.

[rune_me]

1 minute ago, catastrophy said:

When circumstances change and they fulfill different criteria before the law they will become investigated again. Come the policy in effect and that. And if it need someone filing a complaint to get the mill of law running - I'm pretty sure there will be someone to do so.

Yeah I'm pretty sure somebody has to report them once the law is implemented. As I said in an earlier post in this thread, there is no way there will now be some Belgian bureau that sits and monitors and looks through every video game released. Videogame lootboxes will now just fall under the jurisdiction of whatever agency is in charge of gambling. And just as with any other type of illegal gambling (and law enforcement in general), they will mostly act on reports and tips.

[Tesseract7777]

On 2018-04-26 at 8:07 AM, Thirdofherne said:

Apparently the Netherlands and Belgium have made randomised 'Lootbox' mechanics in games illegal. With other countries likely to follow suit.

I was wondering how this might affect Warframe and Relics, as they are technically 'Lootboxes'. Does the fact that you can't buy Relics for Plat direct from DE protect the system? Does the fact that they can be traded for Plat between players negate this?

Are changes going to have to be made? Will relics need to be made to give definite rewards?

 

 

How in the blazes would it have anything to do with Warframe? 

The only thing that might change is that DE might stop selling relic packs... even though you can get them for free, if you pay, are technically getting a random item after some work. 

But apart from that, it simply does NOT apply, and to be honest you sound kind of ridiculous for suggesting it. 

Go play PvE in other games, and you will suddenly appreciate Warframe and it's awful rng a lot more. You know why? Because while it may take forever to get lucky and get things from a mission in Warframe, except for a couple rare exceptions, when you buy something for plat, you get exactly what you wanted. And if you buy it from DE, you know exactly what you are going to pay in advance, and don't have to worry about haggling. What you pay for is what you get. 

Go try Fortnite Save the World (PvE) and have fun with their loot(lama)box system, and the fact that there is almost nothing you can just, you know DIRECTLY BUY WITH MONEY for PvE that you specifically want. And then... after a few weeks of that, come back and tell me how bad Warfame's system is. 

I just came back to the game, and even though I cannot even play my old account anymore because my pc broke down and have to play on XBox starting over totally, let me tell you: It is refreshing how fair Warframe actually is to both their whales and their PvE players. And you do not realize how good you have it. 

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, rune_me said:

Don't know if they will be investigated again. They were just one of the original four games investigated (The others being CS:Go, Fifa 18 and Overwatch), and the only one of those that got a thumps up. So for now they are in the clear.

If they gave BFront a thumbs up it must have been because they removed the lootboxes since it makes no sense if they gave them a thumbs up and not Overwatch after re-implementing cosmetic boxes into BF2.

3 hours ago, rune_me said:

Actually I think you got it backwards. Currently, as I understand it, the law is not about costing real money, but that what you can gain from lootboxes can be traded for real money. That was why Battle Front 2 (which ironically was what got authorities interested in the first place) has not been flagged as illegal, but something like Fifa and CS:GO has.

If this was about reselling items then Overwatch would never have been up there in the first place, you cannot trade anything in that game. Everything you buy belongs to you unless you gift lootboxes. The only thing that may break these laws is that you can gamble with RL cash in OW. Or they have seriously lacking insight in how Overwatch loot works and think that players can win "cash" in the game since you can buy boxes with in-game currency. And at that point several games will be royaly #*!%ed even if they have good intentions.

Example: The new upcoming game Inquisitor Martyr will have a fate system where you earn "fate" points, these points will be possible to spend on smaller DLCs aswell as in-game items to progress. The DLCs will also sell for cash for those that wanna take that route, however "fate" will not be purchasable by cash. This is similar to how OW works where you get points towards lootboxes as you play. Neither of them bring in any real cash, you do however avoid spending cash if you use the in-game currency. So on a technicality "fate" has a cash value so you "earn" cash in a way.

But if the law is going to go down that slippery slope then we are better off keeping all lootboxes as is everywhere in the world in every game.

[rune_me]

25 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

If this was about reselling items then Overwatch would never have been up there in the first place, you cannot trade anything in that game. Everything you buy belongs to you unless you gift lootboxes. The only thing that may break these laws is that you can gamble with RL cash in OW. Or they have seriously lacking insight in how Overwatch loot works and think that players can win "cash" in the game since you can buy boxes with in-game currency. And at that point several games will be royaly #*!%ed even if they have good intentions.

Example: The new upcoming game Inquisitor Martyr will have a fate system where you earn "fate" points, these points will be possible to spend on smaller DLCs aswell as in-game items to progress. The DLCs will also sell for cash for those that wanna take that route, however "fate" will not be purchasable by cash. This is similar to how OW works where you get points towards lootboxes as you play. Neither of them bring in any real cash, you do however avoid spending cash if you use the in-game currency. So on a technicality "fate" has a cash value so you "earn" cash in a way.

But if the law is going to go down that slippery slope then we are better off keeping all lootboxes as is everywhere in the world in every game.

Then I probably got it wrong. Overwatch has already been flagged as illegal, so their system (whatever it is - I never played Overwatch) violates the gambling laws in Belgium and the Netherlands.

Also saying everywhere in the world is a bit of an exageration. Currently we are only talking about 2 countries. 2 other countries (Great Britain and the US) has already decided that lootboxes are not the same as gambling. Of course that could change in the future. But for now we really are just talking 2 countries and nothing more.

Edited May 11, 2018 by rune_me

[Arniox]

I don't think so. It's a grid game, and cabbages are part of the grind. 

I think. 'loot box' mechanics more specifically mean: buying loot boxes and to open then and gamble on ingame items is illegal. No one buys cabbages.... 

Edited May 11, 2018 by Arniox

[SneakyErvin]

18 hours ago, rune_me said:

Then I probably got it wrong. Overwatch has already been flagged as illegal, so their system (whatever it is - I never played Overwatch) violates the gambling laws in Belgium and the Netherlands.

Also saying everywhere in the world is a bit of an exageration. Currently we are only talking about 2 countries. 2 other countries (Great Britain and the US) has already decided that lootboxes are not the same as gambling. Of course that could change in the future. But for now we really are just talking 2 countries and nothing more.

Yeah OW probably got flagged for the gambling part. It is still far from one of the big offenders. It is very easy to obtain what you want by simply playing the game. I'm quite amazed Fortnite wasnt up for investigation, one of the biggest piles of S#&$ when it comes to gambling boxes. Not only are they extremely RNG, players also need them to progress. So a player with bad luck can be stuck for ages getting nowhere because they cannot get better heroes, survivors or weapons. You earn currency by playing aswell but you need to wait for "sales" on the better boxes to have any small chance of actually getting what you need.

These special lootboxes are also hidden and something you simply dont know is there if you start playing. Just like many players wasted massive amounts on regular upgrade llamas to get practically nothing.

And by my comment regarding the world. It was just me saying leave it be as is if they cant make a unified call on what is and what isnt illegal. Right now it is a major joke when games like Overwatch get cought yet BF2 and Fortnite slip past unnoticed. It is just proof the politicians have no clue whatsoever what they are doing or how the lootbox system actually works. If they had any insight then Epic games and their Fortnite would be strapped up on a pyre and Blizzard with their Overwatch would be freed.

[rune_me]

2 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

And by my comment regarding the world. It was just me saying leave it be as is if they cant make a unified call on what is and what isnt illegal. Right now it is a major joke when games like Overwatch get cought yet BF2 and Fortnite slip past unnoticed. It is just proof the politicians have no clue whatsoever what they are doing or how the lootbox system actually works. If they had any insight then Epic games and their Fortnite would be strapped up on a pyre and Blizzard with their Overwatch would be freed.

Fortnite was not really a thing back when this whole controversy started. They really just took the four or five biggest games that were being talked about back when they started looking into it.

Like I said earlier, that's how laws work. Politicians just make the laws, they don't enforce them. That's up to the law enforcement agencies and the courtrooms. If a crime happens in a street in the middle of the night, and no one reports it, then it will likely never be investigated, because the police will never know that it happened. Same applies here. You can't expect a game like Fortnite (or any other game) to just magically be flagged by some system. Just as with any other potential crime, it is up to the citizens to report it, so that authorities can investigate it and determine whether it actually is a crime or not.

[SneakyErvin]

4 hours ago, rune_me said:

Fortnite was not really a thing back when this whole controversy started. They really just took the four or five biggest games that were being talked about back when they started looking into it.

Like I said earlier, that's how laws work. Politicians just make the laws, they don't enforce them. That's up to the law enforcement agencies and the courtrooms. If a crime happens in a street in the middle of the night, and no one reports it, then it will likely never be investigated, because the police will never know that it happened. Same applies here. You can't expect a game like Fortnite (or any other game) to just magically be flagged by some system. Just as with any other potential crime, it is up to the citizens to report it, so that authorities can investigate it and determine whether it actually is a crime or not.

I think the problem is that Fortnite easily goes under the radar due to the whole Battle Royale thing. They already had massive support when Save the World releases, far overshooting even Epic's expectations. But then BR came and STW got pushed into the shadows. And since BR doesnt have lootboxes the chances are STW wont get looked at either since FN is now labeled as a BR game mostly.

The gaming commission should have their eyes open, it shouldnt be a popularity contest which is the only thing we've currently seen with CS:GO, BF2, Fifa and OW. It's all just popular games with big crowds. I doubt anyone has actually reported either of them as a crime. This whole thing started due to an unofficial riot online on different forums regarding BF2. At that point, if they wanna start investigating in a serious way, look up all current games that has a similar system, dont settle with the easy ones that are well known.

IMO it is nothing but sloppy and lazy work on the gaing commissions part here. The inconsistancies are also strong. They check up Overwatch but they ignore Hearthstone and HotS? 

Also as said in the video, it was indeed the politician that got this rolling by advicing the gaming commission to look into this (when the news regarding BF2 came).

Edited May 12, 2018 by SneakyErvin

[nerfinator6]

On 2018-04-26 at 9:37 PM, Thirdofherne said:

Apparently the Netherlands and Belgium have made randomised 'Lootbox' mechanics in games illegal. With other countries likely to follow suit.

I was wondering how this might affect Warframe and Relics, as they are technically 'Lootboxes'. Does the fact that you can't buy Relics for Plat direct from DE protect the system? Does the fact that they can be traded for Plat between players negate this?

Are changes going to have to be made? Will relics need to be made to give definite rewards?

 

 

No.

 

You don't PAY to get relics, if it's free, with no option to buy the relics/parts DIRECTLY with money, then it's allowed.

[SneakyErvin]

3 hours ago, nerfinator6 said:

No.

You don't PAY to get relics, if it's free, with no option to buy the relics/parts DIRECTLY with money, then it's allowed.

You can actually pay for relic packs.

[SilvaDreams]

4 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

You can actually pay for relic packs.

But you can get them in-game for "free" too, thus not the same.

[SneakyErvin]

1 minute ago, SilvaDreams said:

But you can get them in-game for "free" too, thus not the same.

According to how they judged Overwatch then yes it is exactly the same. You can get Overwatch boxes by simply playing the game or by spending cash. Even though it is a player choice it doesnt seem like the belgian politicians or the gaming commission cares. Overwatch is also 100% cosmetics while void relics are actually game changing for a player.

I'm not saying that I think void relics should be treated that way, I'm just waying if Overwatch has been seen as a gambling system then obviously Void Relics in WF wont be safe for long.