Countries starting to make 'Lootbox' mechanics in game Illegal. Will this affect Warframe?

[tnccs215]

2 minutes ago, Sitchrea said:

...?

Sensible issues deserve sensible discussion. While I cannot guarantee that person came here in good faith, I certainly should not assume the opposite. 

Using labels and satire, however fitting, serve only to othering the person and, usually, result in nothing but them assuming a defensive position which will reduce the chances of them listening to reason - however small they might have been before - to zero. 

While bad faith is uncertain, respond to their claims in an actual attempt to dispute them. Only if bad faith is guaranteed can you actually address them as such. 

[Educated_Beast]

Warframe is safe.  If say 90% of phone games are going to have to stop being toxin slimpy peices of excrement.  

Good

[Sitchrea]

2 minutes ago, tnccs215 said:

Sensible issues deserve sensible discussion. While I cannot guarantee that person came here in good faith, I certainly should not assume the opposite. 

Using labels and satire, however fitting, serve only to othering the person and, usually, result in nothing but them assuming a defensive position which will reduce the chances of them listening to reason - however small they might have been before - to zero. 

While bad faith is uncertain, respond to their claims in an actual attempt to dispute them. Only if bad faith is guaranteed can you actually address them as such. 

Wow, dude, chill. It was a joke. 

The other guy made a comment about how government shouldn't be involved with games. That's a Libertarian ideal, and "Taxation is theft" is a Libertarian motto. Way to be judgmental, sheesh.

[tnccs215]

42 minutes ago, Noabettiet said:

Funny enough, warframe is an good example as how you don't really need them to make a game successful.

They took their time, but it caught on. After the controversies over what happened, it was about time it got regulated. Won't name any names here, but there were pretty sketchy games using their mechanics to pressure the player base into a life of (lootbox) gambling. Like actual manipulation kind of sketchy.

I personally know of one case. 

With a bloody cellphone game. Basically the son of a neighbor of mine got hooked on it, and stole his mother's debit card to pay for loot boxes in it. When they discovered, he had already spent upwards of 500€ in it. 

She's a poor woman working two jobs to try and keep her family afloat. She cannot afford to take these hits on her savings. 

They are still trying to get the money back. They havent been very successful. 

Gambling is already problematic with adults. When you allow immature children access to it, the problem grows exponentially. 

[tnccs215]

Just now, Sitchrea said:

Wow, dude, chill. It was a joke. 

The other guy made a comment about how government shouldn't be involved with games. That's a Libertarian ideal, and "Taxation is theft" is a Libertarian motto. Way to be judgmental, sheesh.

[Noabettiet]

6 minutes ago, tnccs215 said:

I personally know of one case. 

With a bloody cellphone game. Basically the son of a neighbor of mine got hooked on it, and stole his mother's debit card to pay for loot boxes in it. When they discovered, he had already spent upwards of 500€ in it. 

She's a poor woman working two jobs to try and keep her family afloat. She cannot afford to take these hits on her savings. 

They are still trying to get the money back. They havent been very successful. 

Gambling is already problematic with adults. When you allow immature children access to it, the problem grows exponentially. 

You'd freak out of how many people I've met who have already passed 5k in loot boxes alone, in F2P games.

[Ziltrex]

Warframe is not really in a safe position because in this game there is a lot of thing which is loot box like and there are other microtransaction metholds which forces you to spend money on platinum.

For the prime example the slots which is in other games are no cost real life money and in this game and in world of tanks it costs money. Peoples handle these things different because they claim the wot is pvp so pay to win warframe is pve mostly so not pay to win. The pvp or pve does nothing with this still a fact if they restrict your gameplay, not shown the numbers of how an item can be dropped and not telling you clearly in this game what you can get freely and what not then it is a pay to win but they win because of peoples greedyness.

The slots are enough problematic because you cannot earn them by playing the game and input energy and achieve goals in game these are clearly there to force you or another person to spend money. The trading in this case is an illusion because somebody should pay for these and the majority whom spend money on the game are want slots for their items because the game basically a pokemon game but we collect weapons and trophies. If you apply the noone force you to spend money to all then you will end a dead economy without platinum purchases and the game basically dies. The slots is their main source of revenue the other is the prime access packs and the cosmetic items. Warframe is lack of cosmetics in some part because most of the frames and weapons have only 1-2 or max 3-4 cosmetics others have not yet and thankfully the tennogen you can improve a bit this stat but it is still lacks. DE should only sells cosmetic items like skins but for this they need a lot of dedicated teams to make deluxe skins and item cosmetics to fill the space. They aren't good in the deluxe skins and the majority of their works are mediocre or just good but not awesome. It is a different story and I don't wish to go deep into it.

 

The other is the relics but luckily the relics can be obtained by playing defense and survival missions and if you play some you didn't notice but you can get enough relics to farm. Pay for them is silly but it should not be the case first of all. The number of the chances would be more helpful to the playerbase and the drop chances and if the numbers is very small then it should be boosted a bit. That still not guarantee you to get what you wanted because the rng is rng.

The truly lootbox system is the mod packs because these are give you random cards with a guaranteed 1 rare or 2-3 depend on what packs do you check. These should be removed from the game or make different packs with fix loots so you can buy them from their shop too. It is still not force you to buy them because you can trade it with other players but it is depend on how rare the mod and how hard to get. If hard to get that mod and usualy sells in high price then that means it is more worth to buy from the shop. Other than that if they keep them random they should remove these.

They could manage to survive if they just copy the league of legends free to play model because there they really only sells skins and cosmetics and everything can be farmed with a forseable amount of time in warframe not rare to find items after 100-200 even more runs. This is abysmal and this can demoralise players to play the game others whom bought platinum to make it easier or just play casually can live without these but those players whom like collections and want something so hard to get usualy those burn out because of the grind. The game won't be any better because this rng keeps alive the devs and encourage players to buy platinum. Without platinum purchases they cannot improve on the rate how they want but with platinum purchases they encourage others to do so to keep alive the in game economy. See if they changing the odds a bit and they for some reason remove the slots purchased by real money their economy could fall apart. The better chances means less forced profit from their part and the slot force to buy platinum means less purchases because a lot of players fair enough with the basic items so not really will spend money on skins unless those skins are so great. 

 

I personally feel the game is a hybrid in this sense and it would be much better if they remove certain things because the game feels like a better graphic webbrowser game where you spend money to speed up process pay for boosters to boost your stats and loots and increase your chances. This is disgust me and this game should be different from this. I still think they could manage to survive if they just sells cosmetics and maybe the farmable items for those whom really want that item faster. It is my opinion on the subject.

[Lanadra]

14 minutes ago, Ziltrex said:

Warframe is not really in a safe position because in this game there is a lot of thing which is loot box like and there are other microtransaction metholds which forces you to spend money on platinum.

For the prime example the slots which is in other games are no cost real life money and in this game and in world of tanks it costs money. Peoples handle these things different because they claim the wot is pvp so pay to win warframe is pve mostly so not pay to win. The pvp or pve does nothing with this still a fact if they restrict your gameplay, not shown the numbers of how an item can be dropped and not telling you clearly in this game what you can get freely and what not then it is a pay to win but they win because of peoples greedyness.

The slots are enough problematic because you cannot earn them by playing the game and input energy and achieve goals in game these are clearly there to force you or another person to spend money. The trading in this case is an illusion because somebody should pay for these and the majority whom spend money on the game are want slots for their items because the game basically a pokemon game but we collect weapons and trophies. If you apply the noone force you to spend money to all then you will end a dead economy without platinum purchases and the game basically dies. The slots is their main source of revenue the other is the prime access packs and the cosmetic items. Warframe is lack of cosmetics in some part because most of the frames and weapons have only 1-2 or max 3-4 cosmetics others have not yet and thankfully the tennogen you can improve a bit this stat but it is still lacks. DE should only sells cosmetic items like skins but for this they need a lot of dedicated teams to make deluxe skins and item cosmetics to fill the space. They aren't good in the deluxe skins and the majority of their works are mediocre or just good but not awesome. It is a different story and I don't wish to go deep into it.

 

The other is the relics but luckily the relics can be obtained by playing defense and survival missions and if you play some you didn't notice but you can get enough relics to farm. Pay for them is silly but it should not be the case first of all. The number of the chances would be more helpful to the playerbase and the drop chances and if the numbers is very small then it should be boosted a bit. That still not guarantee you to get what you wanted because the rng is rng.

The truly lootbox system is the mod packs because these are give you random cards with a guaranteed 1 rare or 2-3 depend on what packs do you check. These should be removed from the game or make different packs with fix loots so you can buy them from their shop too. It is still not force you to buy them because you can trade it with other players but it is depend on how rare the mod and how hard to get. If hard to get that mod and usualy sells in high price then that means it is more worth to buy from the shop. Other than that if they keep them random they should remove these.

They could manage to survive if they just copy the league of legends free to play model because there they really only sells skins and cosmetics and everything can be farmed with a forseable amount of time in warframe not rare to find items after 100-200 even more runs. This is abysmal and this can demoralise players to play the game others whom bought platinum to make it easier or just play casually can live without these but those players whom like collections and want something so hard to get usualy those burn out because of the grind. The game won't be any better because this rng keeps alive the devs and encourage players to buy platinum. Without platinum purchases they cannot improve on the rate how they want but with platinum purchases they encourage others to do so to keep alive the in game economy. See if they changing the odds a bit and they for some reason remove the slots purchased by real money their economy could fall apart. The better chances means less forced profit from their part and the slot force to buy platinum means less purchases because a lot of players fair enough with the basic items so not really will spend money on skins unless those skins are so great. 

 

I personally feel the game is a hybrid in this sense and it would be much better if they remove certain things because the game feels like a better graphic webbrowser game where you spend money to speed up process pay for boosters to boost your stats and loots and increase your chances. This is disgust me and this game should be different from this. I still think they could manage to survive if they just sells cosmetics and maybe the farmable items for those whom really want that item faster. It is my opinion on the subject.

Can we get a TL;DR? Please? Pretty please? Please for all that is holy?

[rune_me]

22 minutes ago, Ziltrex said:

The slots are enough problematic because you cannot earn them by playing the game and input energy and achieve goals in game these are clearly there to force you or another person to spend money.

I don't think you have understood what the issue is. Even if you had to pay money, that's not a problem. You have to pay money for most games on the market. The problem is, when it is considered gambling, because gambling is regulated by the government. Or should be. There's absolutely nothing wrong with buying slots. That's just purchasing an ingame product, same as buying a new skin or a DLC. You know exactly what it costs and what you get when you make the transaction. No RNG involved whatsoever.

27 minutes ago, Ziltrex said:

I still think they could manage to survive if they just sells cosmetics and maybe the farmable items for those whom really want that item faster. It is my opinion on the subject.

I never understood why cosmetics are seen as different from anything else. We always say that Fashionframe is endgame. That should indicate that cosmetics are an important part of the gameplay. Which it is in any game. Given the choice, I think a lot of us spends our plat on syandanas and color palettes instead of boosters if we can't afford both, because those are more important to us. 

If cosmetics really were "just" cosmetics and not important to the game, no one would ever buy them in the first place.

[CriticalFumble]

1 minute ago, Lanadra said:

Can we get a TL;DR? Please? Pretty please? Please for all that is holy?

Lootboxes bad.  

Other microtransactions, especially equipment slots, are also in effect loot boxes because trading for plat requires you to brave the game's RNG system.  

The RNG system itself is problematic because there is no assurance that the things you need will drop in a reasonable time frame.  

Something about being able to buy specific mods directly from the market?

-end translation/TL;DRing

[Lanadra]

11 minutes ago, CriticalFumble said:

Lootboxes bad.  

Other microtransactions, especially equipment slots, are also in effect loot boxes because trading for plat requires you to brave the game's RNG system.  

The RNG system itself is problematic because there is no assurance that the things you need will drop in a reasonable time frame.  

Something about being able to buy specific mods directly from the market?

-end translation/TL;DRing

Thank you.

I'm going to have to agree with @rune_me in saying that @Ziltrex doesn't seem to get the immediate problem.. slots shouldn't even be brought up, they're not relevant, nor is the RNG system itself.

As others have said, lootboxes.. specifically their gambling nature, is the issue at hand, and what my country and our southern neighbors, Belgium, have acted on.

3 hours ago, Donkey___R said:

Without detail in what laws they are even bringing in, who knows. 

YouTube click bait "Look boxes are illegal!!!" doesn't really say much and as far as I know, no law has been actually passed yet. 

I sure DE will look at anything that comes down the road. Anyway does Warframe even have "loot boxes"?

You should probably have done a little bit of research. My country, the Netherlands, and Belgium also, have acted on gambling laws already in place, these companies, these games, have been found guilty of breaking these laws with their lootboxes and have been given an ultimatum to do something about it or face the consequences.

It's only now they're acting because lootboxes have become a very hot topic, resulting in a lot of controversy and attention, causing people and gambling authorities to take note and investigate. Contrary to what the AAA industry hoped, the controversy hasn't gone away as they expected it would.

Edited April 26, 2018 by Lanadra

[(XBOX)HAPPYHapyJ0YJoy]

10 hours ago, Thirdofherne said:

Since they declare Lootboxes for real money to be 'gambling', and encouraging children to gamble is illegal.

 

Explain baseball and Pokemon cards then... real money in, random result out, sometimes worth a lot, sometimes worth basically nothing.

Seems like we've been encouraging kids to gamble for decades and decades.

[Hypernaut1]

36 minutes ago, (XB1)HAPPYHapyJ0YJoy said:

Explain baseball and Pokemon cards then... real money in, random result out, sometimes worth a lot, sometimes worth basically nothing.

Seems like we've been encouraging kids to gamble for decades and decades.

People are taking the idea too far as if ALL things RNG is evil. It's not. And many people find it exciting 

Should kinder surprise be illegal too? Cracker Jack? 

People like surprises. It becomes an issue when it becomes exploitive. I'm not for government regulations at all. There's too much of a grey area

[CupcakesMoo]

I'm glad lootboxes are going to become illegal. Especially since tf2 will burn like bogroll. 

But with warframe you already know what you are going to get. There are relics and mods but anyone who buys those kinda deserve what ever they have coming to them. 

[Lanadra]

19 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

People are taking the idea too far as if ALL things RNG is evil. It's not. And many people find it exciting 

Should kinder surprise be illegal too? Cracker Jack? 

People like surprises. It becomes an issue when it becomes exploitive. I'm not for government regulations at all. There's too much of a grey area

If I'm not mistaken those -are- illegal in the US, though for health reasons I believe.

As for government regulations, at this point I welcome it. It cannot possibly get any worse then the ESRB literally shilling for the ESA against the consumers it's supposed to protect and inform. They don't even use Adults Only for games with gambling when that label is literally for those games.. because it hurts sales.

Edited April 27, 2018 by Lanadra

[rune_me]

1 hour ago, (XB1)HAPPYHapyJ0YJoy said:

Explain baseball and Pokemon cards then... real money in, random result out, sometimes worth a lot, sometimes worth basically nothing.

Seems like we've been encouraging kids to gamble for decades and decades.

Politicians rarely have their own firm moral compasses. They tend to swing whatever way their core voters do. That's hardly a surprise. The reason this is becoming an issue now, is because people who play videogames has become sick and tired of loot boxes. A lot of people have been speaking loudly about it, newspapers has written about it, Youtubers have been making videos about it. So the politicians, trying to appease their voters, has started to look into it.

Since this has never happened with Pokemon or Baseball cards, no one has looked into it. You can be pretty sure, that if the same amount of public outrage would come down on Pokemon cards, they would receive the exact same treatment as loot boxes in video games currently are. 

[LupisV0lk]

28 minutes ago, Lanadra said:

If I'm not mistaken those -are- illegal in the US, though for health reasons I believe.

Funnily enough Kinder Surprise reworked thier eggs in a way so Americans can now eat them with out chocking on the toy canister.

Edited April 27, 2018 by LupisV0lk

[CupcakesMoo]

46 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

People are taking the idea too far as if ALL things RNG is evil. It's not. And many people find it exciting 

Should kinder surprise be illegal too? Cracker Jack? 

People like surprises. It becomes an issue when it becomes exploitive. I'm not for government regulations at all. There's too much of a grey area

Kinder surprise is illegal in the us due to your typical american's manner of shoving entire foodstuffs in their mouths without thinking. Cracker jack prizes are not gambling because the prize is more of a bonus than anything and you know what you are going to get. You shouldn't be eating sugar in general but I digress. 

Loot boxes usually cost more than random confectionery, you don't know what's going to come out, and the prizes go from worthless garbage to something being worth a lot more than you put in it. 

In america things are usually decided on a whim though so things like lottery are okay, apparently.  

Lottery and junk food are not on trial here, though. 

Edited April 27, 2018 by CupcakesMoo

[LupisV0lk]

1 minute ago, CupcakesMoo said:

In america things are usually decided on a whim though so things like lottery are okay, apparently.  

Lottery and junk food are not on trial here, too. 

I think you mean not by a whim but by whoever hands them the most money or votes.

[CupcakesMoo]

1 minute ago, LupisV0lk said:

I think you mean not by a whim but by whoever hands them the most money or votes.

I like to think that things are not as asinine. 

[Aggh]

4 hours ago, CriticalFumble said:

Lootboxes bad.  

Other microtransactions, especially equipment slots, are also in effect loot boxes because trading for plat requires you to brave the game's RNG system.  

The RNG system itself is problematic because there is no assurance that the things you need will drop in a reasonable time frame.  

Something about being able to buy specific mods directly from the market?

-end translation/TL;DRing

The RNG system is only problematic in that technically certain items within it can be bought with premium currency.  If they got rid of those things (specifically mod and relic packs on the market place, which aren't really necessary to beging with since most people don't buy them) there wouldn't really be a problem.  With a few exceptions, Warframe has some of the most generous drop rates of any f2p game out there.

Edited April 27, 2018 by Aggh

[CriticalFumble]

1 hour ago, Hypernaut1 said:

People are taking the idea too far as if ALL things RNG is evil. It's not. And many people find it exciting 

Should kinder surprise be illegal too? Cracker Jack? 

People like surprises. It becomes an issue when it becomes exploitive. I'm not for government regulations at all. There's too much of a grey area

On the one hand, its probably fine.  People should have the since to know what they're in for in these situations.  It shouldn't need to be dealt with by the government because if the system is bad people won't use it, while if its good people will use it. 

Then I remember this is a world where hammers come with warnings about striking oneself in the head with it. 

I'm really ambivalent about this, though.  I don't trust either side of this fiasco to actually help the situation.  Best bet is to just stay away from the titles that are bad this way, and hope that others do too. 

 

27 minutes ago, CupcakesMoo said:

In america things are usually decided on a whim though so things like lottery are okay, apparently. 

As far as I know, the lotteries here in America are typically state (as in one of the 50) sponsored.  They also seem to have a tendency to operate under the pretense that at least part of proceeds go to the school system.  So. . . Yeah. 

[(XBOX)mickeyjuiceman]

7 hours ago, Ziltrex said:

Warframe is not really in a safe position because in this game there is a lot of thing which is loot box like and there are other microtransaction metholds which forces you to spend money on platinum.

For the prime example the slots which is in other games are no cost real life money and in this game and in world of tanks it costs money.

So, in other words, you have absolutely no idea what loot boxes actually are?

#surprise

Edited April 27, 2018 by (XB1)mickeyjuiceman

[Rikimaru_dota]

So we are safe?

[Ziltrex]

45 minutes ago, (XB1)mickeyjuiceman said:

So, in other words, you have absolutely no idea what loot boxes actually are?

#surprise

In other worlds you guys misunderstood me as in the last similar thread. I know how lootboxes work and how affect the players / gamblers.