Countries starting to make 'Lootbox' mechanics in game Illegal. Will this affect Warframe?

[(XBOX)mickeyjuiceman]

Just now, Ziltrex said:

In other worlds you guys misunderstood me as in the last similar thread. I know how lootboxes work and how affect the players / gamblers.

No, I quoted you showing that you think buying things is the same as lootboxes, which is utterly incorrect. Microtransactions != lootboxes.

[Ziltrex]

7 hours ago, rune_me said:

I don't think you have understood what the issue is. Even if you had to pay money, that's not a problem. You have to pay money for most games on the market. The problem is, when it is considered gambling, because gambling is regulated by the government. Or should be. There's absolutely nothing wrong with buying slots. That's just purchasing an ingame product, same as buying a new skin or a DLC. You know exactly what it costs and what you get when you make the transaction. No RNG involved whatsoever.

I never understood why cosmetics are seen as different from anything else. We always say that Fashionframe is endgame. That should indicate that cosmetics are an important part of the gameplay. Which it is in any game. Given the choice, I think a lot of us spends our plat on syandanas and color palettes instead of boosters if we can't afford both, because those are more important to us. 

If cosmetics really were "just" cosmetics and not important to the game, no one would ever buy them in the first place.

I fully understood what the topic is but I bought up the slots also nor because it is gambling but it is a trashy limitation which only could be obtain by paying money for it. This is not rng based but gameplay changing because you can get more space for items. 

Cosmetics are different in the sense of these are not required items to play but gameplay changing in the sense because you look different. It has no affect your gameplay because not adds stats. 

 

Mod cards are lootboxes relics are a little bit because they have chances to drop something. 

[Ziltrex]

6 minutes ago, (XB1)mickeyjuiceman said:

No, I quoted you showing that you think buying things is the same as lootboxes, which is utterly incorrect. Microtransactions != lootboxes.

And I didn't said microtransaction is lootbox.

[(XBOX)mickeyjuiceman]

2 minutes ago, Ziltrex said:

And I didn't said microtransaction is lootbox.

Perhaps you need to learn to write logically and clearly then. Because you're making zero sense at this point (understandably, given the point you're trying to make without apparently have a clue about).

[Ziltrex]

7 hours ago, Lanadra said:

Thank you.

I'm going to have to agree with @rune_me in saying that @Ziltrex doesn't seem to get the immediate problem.. slots shouldn't even be brought up, they're not relevant, nor is the RNG system itself.

As others have said, lootboxes.. specifically their gambling nature, is the issue at hand, and what my country and our southern neighbors, Belgium, have acted on.

 

Not involved rng in the slots but those have affects on your gameplay because it adds space for your items and you cannot obtain it by play the game. I agree on it is an in game stuff what you can buy and it is a product but it is money grabby product and it limits you. Due you cannot earn it by playing good or loyal to the game for long and rewarded with it. 

It is a simpler thing than lootboxes but it generates them the money that's why they doesn't really care about the mod packs and relics which is basically the only lootbox like items in game because it is involve a hard rng.

With this power we can come up with the discounts because the newer players get a lot of it to spend money to get platinum which is itself not a lootbox but a practice to catch flyers.

[Ziltrex]

4 minutes ago, (XB1)mickeyjuiceman said:

Perhaps you need to learn to write logically and clearly then. Because you're making zero sense at this point (understandably, given the point you're trying to make without apparently have a clue about).

Ok then. Subject ends.

[Lanadra]

3 hours ago, Ziltrex said:

Not involved rng in the slots but those have affects on your gameplay because it adds space for your items and you cannot obtain it by play the game. I agree on it is an in game stuff what you can buy and it is a product but it is money grabby product and it limits you. Due you cannot earn it by playing good or loyal to the game for long and rewarded with it. 

It is a simpler thing than lootboxes but it generates them the money that's why they doesn't really care about the mod packs and relics which is basically the only lootbox like items in game because it is involve a hard rng.

With this power we can come up with the discounts because the newer players get a lot of it to spend money to get platinum which is itself not a lootbox but a practice to catch flyers.

But it still isn't relevant to the topic and situation at hand. Lootboxes are being looked into, not micro transactions as a whole.

[LarryYourWaiter]

I haven’t read all the 6 pages of this thread, but the issue is the gambling aspect where you dont know for sure what you’re getting.  Micro-transactions are fine, it’s the micro transactions for mystery items that causes the problem.

[SneakyErvin]

What I'm wondering is, if this law turns out to crack down on a game like Hearthstone (even though I dont play it) wouldnt that mean that they'd have to take actions against any CCG, interactive aswell as physical (like MTG, Yugioh etc.)? Sure there is a higher value in the physical CCG cards, but it would still be seen as gambling.

[rune_me]

2 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

What I'm wondering is, if this law turns out to crack down on a game like Hearthstone (even though I dont play it) wouldnt that mean that they'd have to take actions against any CCG, interactive aswell as physical (like MTG, Yugioh etc.)? Sure there is a higher value in the physical CCG cards, but it would still be seen as gambling.

Again, these things don't just happen automatically. That's not how the law works. Software is not the same as trading cards. A ruling made on lootboxes in videogames doesn't automatically apply to real physical trading cards as well.

In order for the same thing to happen with trading cards, politicians either have to make a ruling on trading trades (as they just did with lootboxes) or someone has to sue the trading card manufacturers and test it in a courtroom. As long as that doesn't happen, treading cards are just trading cards, and nothing more.

[Am0rph15]

As I understand it, if an item gained by chance in-game can be traded outside the game for money, then this is gambling and leads to illegality.

This suggests that:

• If a Prime blueprint gained by chance could be sold outside the game directly for money, then it would fall within the rule
• If a Prime blueprint gained by chance is sold for Platinum that has, in turn, been bought with money, this appears likely to fall within the rule
• If a Prime part obtained by chance could be exchanged only for Credits (i.e. an in-game currency that is impossible to buy with money) then that would fall outside the rule

DE's lawyers will surely be seeking to clarify this. Since Brussels in Belgium is the centre of political power in the EU, having institutions such as the European Parliament, the fact that Belgium has acted the way it has over loot boxes may lead to wider consequences throughout the EU which represents 25% of the global gaming market.

[HeyKidd0]

i doubt it, they dont cost anything.

[(XBOX)weedyodaa]

This may apply to the Mod Packs you can purchase, but.. Who even buys those?

[Hypernaut1]

1 hour ago, Am0rph15 said:

As I understand it, if an item gained by chance in-game can be traded outside the game for money, then this is gambling and leads to illegality.

This suggests that:

• If a Prime blueprint gained by chance could be sold outside the game directly for money, then it would fall within the rule
• If a Prime blueprint gained by chance is sold for Platinum that has, in turn, been bought with money, this appears likely to fall within the rule
• If a Prime part obtained by chance could be exchanged only for Credits (i.e. an in-game currency that is impossible to buy with money) then that would fall outside the rule

DE's lawyers will surely be seeking to clarify this. Since Brussels in Belgium is the centre of political power in the EU, having institutions such as the European Parliament, the fact that Belgium has acted the way it has over loot boxes may lead to wider consequences throughout the EU which represents 25% of the global gaming market.

That just sounds ridiculous and overreaching

[rune_me]

1 hour ago, Am0rph15 said:

DE's lawyers will surely be seeking to clarify this. Since Brussels in Belgium is the centre of political power in the EU, having institutions such as the European Parliament, the fact that Belgium has acted the way it has over loot boxes may lead to wider consequences throughout the EU which represents 25% of the global gaming market.

Belgium is just another EU member nation, though. They have no more say over EU laws than any other (and much less than larger nations like France or Germany).

[catastrophy]

2 hours ago, Am0rph15 said:

As I understand it, if an item gained by chance in-game can be traded outside the game for money, then this is gambling and leads to illegality.

This suggests that:

• If a Prime blueprint gained by chance could be sold outside the game directly for money, then it would fall within the rule
• If a Prime blueprint gained by chance is sold for Platinum that has, in turn, been bought with money, this appears likely to fall within the rule
• If a Prime part obtained by chance could be exchanged only for Credits (i.e. an in-game currency that is impossible to buy with money) then that would fall outside the rule

DE's lawyers will surely be seeking to clarify this. Since Brussels in Belgium is the centre of political power in the EU, having institutions such as the European Parliament, the fact that Belgium has acted the way it has over loot boxes may lead to wider consequences throughout the EU which represents 25% of the global gaming market.

Nope, you have to "wager" for it beforehand. That is: you risk your money. Earning by playing doesn`t involve you risking money for a wager for the item so it`s fine. It's gambling once you pay for a chance to have it drop. Like in "lottery ticket".

[Thirdofherne]

22 hours ago, Shad0wWatcher said:

I know i know, i'm just stating the OP's concerns, not mine. Also no that's not what i meant xD. I'm just thinking the OP might thing that due to the large amount of RNG in warframe, it might fall under this law due to technicality cause of its heavy RNG 

No. Nothing to do with RNG. My concern was because since Relics ARE lootboxes of a type, I was wondering if the fact that they can be bought for Platinum from other players might count as able to be 'paid for'.

 

Edited April 27, 2018 by Thirdofherne

[SneakyErvin]

4 hours ago, rune_me said:

Again, these things don't just happen automatically. That's not how the law works. Software is not the same as trading cards. A ruling made on lootboxes in videogames doesn't automatically apply to real physical trading cards as well.

In order for the same thing to happen with trading cards, politicians either have to make a ruling on trading trades (as they just did with lootboxes) or someone has to sue the trading card manufacturers and test it in a courtroom. As long as that doesn't happen, treading cards are just trading cards, and nothing more.

That is where the politicians fail just as the law. Somehow it is more malicious according to them when it is a random amount of ones and zeroes being sold, yet the system (in HS's case) has been around since the early 30s(?) if you look at sports card collections and the mid 80s or something for CCGs. Hearthstone is probably also more healthy than something like MTG because you cannot sell HS cards for thousands of dollars and make a tax free living out of it.

I think the law will be good in some cases, but when it comes to online interactive CCGs I dont think it will do anything except make the politicians look like fools without any actual knowledge of the CCG market or history. But then again, that is what politicians do mostly, look like fools with zero knowledge.

Edited April 27, 2018 by SneakyErvin

[SneakyErvin]

25 minutes ago, Thirdofherne said:

No. Nothing to do with RNG. My concern was because since Relics ARE lootboxes of a type, I was wondering if the fact that they can be bought for Platinum from other players might count as able to be 'paid for'.

 

It comes more to the point that DE sells them straight up 3 for 50p. When you trade relics between players you never pay nearly that amount per actual relic. Many pay something like 2p per relic, so no matter what you get, even if it isnt the item you are after, you've broken even or gained something on it since prime junk usually sells for 5:10 or 5:12. So you should get back atleast 2p no matter what you get in it. There is also high likelyhood that you actually gain 10x the amount you spent.

[Cyriann]

Le 26/04/2018 à 14:17, Pent_ a dit :

I certainly hope they don't make lootboxes illegal. Since when did the government get to decide what's allowed in games?

When it starts getting high negative impacts and is escaping laws, gambling is extremely restricted and kept in check. So lootboxes being gambling, there is no denying that, governments are to take actions to have their laws upheld, even in the  virtual space. 

 

That is only logic, as it is for those regulating it money flying below their radars, and for those forbidding it, a huge law infringement they cannot give a pass. Game companies thrown themselves into this by designing glorified slot machines, had they thought à little more in the design to not make it a predatory and so important feature, governments would never had needed to take actions against them. 

[._.-._.]

boom boom bump :3/

 

every so often ppl started to think lootboxing practices are illegal nowadays, because of SW battlefront 2 lootbox system is excessively utilized

what an effect of, sentiment...

 

[Corvid]

14 minutes ago, Primbone said:

boom boom bump :3/

 

every so often ppl started to think lootboxing practices are illegal nowadays, because of SW battlefront 2 lootbox system is excessively utilized

what an effect of, sentiment...

 

Not sure if you've been keeping up with the news, but it's more than just sentiment. Several countries are actually ruling paid Lootboxes as illegal.

[(PSN)supernova_girlie]

As an adult, I see nothing wrong with lootboxes, but the problem starts when minors become addicted to the rush they get in anticipation of what goodies come out of the box. I saw this happen on another video game and instinctively felt that it was wrong. 

Developers can combat this issue by offering the desired items for direct pay in addition to the lootboxes, but as long as minors have access to their games they will be treading on quicksand.

As for Warframe, DE has nothing to be concerned about. I can't imagine that many players actually buy relic or mod packs directly. 

[Hypernaut1]

22 minutes ago, (PS4)supernova_girlie said:

 

As for Warframe, DE has nothing to be concerned about. I can't imagine that many players actually buy relic or mod packs directly. 

They probably do, but not under the pretence that they have to. Why shouldn't DE allow people to just try their luck for fun? Clearly in this game, those mod packs don't encourage an addictive gambling behavior because you can easily target any mod in this game through playing a reasonable amount of time. 

That's the problem when overreaching laws. You have cases like this, where its just fun, try you luck RNG, and you have abusive cases where the only way to progress is through extremely low chance "loot boxes". The two are not the same and shouldn't be treated with a blanket law. RNG isn't inherently a bad thing. 

In gaming, RNG lends value to things instead of just being able to just buy exactly what you want outright. It's not new to gaming or since mtx became a thing. 

[Am0rph15]

On 2018-04-27 at 4:23 PM, catastrophy said:

Nope, you have to "wager" for it beforehand. That is: you risk your money. Earning by playing doesn`t involve you risking money for a wager for the item so it`s fine. It's gambling once you pay for a chance to have it drop. Like in "lottery ticket".

It will be interesting to see how this situation develops in court and what precedents are set. Overwatch features both earned and bought loot boxes and is included in the list of games cited by Belgum. Belgium's statements suggest it is demanding that all loot boxes be removed from Overwatch. Clarifying statements may appear confirming whether the demand is restricted to bought loot boxes or applies to all, even those earned through progression. FIFA's in-game items can be sold via third-party websites. Those sites are being taken into consideration since players use them to cash-out items gained in-game despite the sites being outside EA.