Countries starting to make 'Lootbox' mechanics in game Illegal. Will this affect Warframe?

[Thirdofherne]

As far as the law is concerned a proxy currency (ie Platinum that can be bought for 'real' money) counts as 'money'. Otherwise casinos wouldn't involve gambling because people are betting with 'chips'.

Relics can be bought with Plat, just not direct from DE, the question is, will that exemplify them?

[Syndrella]

Warframe is a free to play game with some kind of pay to win esque mechanics if the devs aware of this and their game can get a green flag then they are fine but if I were them I would check which parts of the game are pay to win esque or loot box like and remove them.

 

Items and frames are cost money - it is power selling, but you can farm the items.

cosmetics - known items and that not harms your game experience only just your fashion frame.

cards - those old cards should be removed in order to avoid the loot box problems because those are clearly are and these are in the game and the trading itself not bypass this because still not know how many peoples buy these "still there could be peoples" so it is clear if they remove it completely.

slots - gamechanging addition, these are known items, cannot be obtained by playing the game and it limits you hardly. The only reason why peoples tolerate it because it is cheap "at least looks like cheap" and with the trading you can get what you want BUT for the trading someone should pay money for platinum and the only reason why peoples buy platinum is the slots. Everything except cosmetics can be obtained by playing the game so the only reason is why so many platinum purchases have is because of slots. Peoples with less knowledge buy other items or because of impatient and want that item so hard will buy these stuffs, but that is legit, because you could farm it. The rng is a different thing and DE could be forced to show their numbers officially and if the numbers so low then increase it. China's government does this.

Miscleanous - Kubrow and kavat breedins also can be earn by playing the game but the part drops and building time is eats a lot and these items can be rushed.

Rush platinum - known feature and it is boosts your building time and you know what you will get in the end but it is a cheap browser game like money grab and only impatient peoples or whom needs really fast something will use it.

 

Overall the game is in a middle way or in the verge to be called pay to win because for the win no need to win against others anything but win your item slots and your pleasure. The free to play title not save this because once time paid games sells full content with less so that is not legit in this point to say the warframe could not survive if it was a one time purchase game because there is nothing so much which needs us to continously boost the developement. The devs developing constantly the game and not selling a full product but an ever changing game which is basically a continous dlc creation which generates them money. With the free to play model they can generate more money than the one time paid system. I personally prefer this or sub fee system around 10-15-20 dollar and get a full experience, no slot limitations and better servers.

 

Also an other little information what I found on this forum and checked this site.

 

https://microtransaction.zone/Search?q=warframe

 

This is a little helps to us to decide which games have microtransactions and which ones are good or mediocre or even bad. I find it quite funny how they categorized our game but I cannot surprise on this because they basically wrote the same as me.

The solution for warframe is easy and still the rules are only will hurt the lootbox games and if the warframe achieve the removal of them or just fix the loot so the loot is fixed then it won't suffer from any harm. 

I want some response from the Holland playerbase of the game because I heard there have ultimatums on lootbox games and developers and they can ban these games. I would like to avoid the lose of fellow Dutch players.

[Jim22]

Wish I could read all of that.

[Icari]

Nothing in Warframe count as lootboxes because everything can be earned outside of bying them, the reason this storm happened was because EA had lootboxes with stuff you could get nowhere else, literally forcing you to spend real money to gamble them away for possible good loot if you wanted any chance at getting these items. Warframe is 100% fine, this isn't even a discussion. This should be common sense.

[Oreades]

4 minutes ago, Thirdofherne said:

As far as the law is concerned a proxy currency (ie Platinum that can be bought for 'real' money) counts as 'money'. Otherwise casinos wouldn't involve gambling because people are betting with 'chips'.

Relics can be bought with Plat, just not direct from DE, the question is, will that exemplify them?

Not sure if player to player trades actually come into play or not, I think it applies more to the relic packs in the market. Yeah there is actually a relic pack you can buy for platinum directly from DE. Also the Eagle/Dragon Mod packs etc.

Thing is pretty much no one buys them and very few people even know they are in the market in the first place :P

For DE it probably wouldn't be a huge deal to not risk it and just remove them from the market. However I think what you will see with companies like Activision and EA is they will probably implement IP filtering for their market so they can keep pushing loot boxes everywhere that hasn't outrightly banned them.

[Fluff-E-Kitty]

I think that WF is fine, mostly be becasue its not realy a loot box per say. at lest not in the idea that you can directly pay to open or obtain it.

Plus, a lot of games run on the idea of a drop schance item. in this case, think of the relics more like keys to the mission that drops something. ok that might not be the best way to think about it.

let me put it a diffrent way- every play PSO? it had a drop mechanic for items that used generic boxes and yes some of them had to be opened. It was just that they opened with ingame currancy and it was a way to spawn in the item inside it, almost like a token or ticket system. WF dosnt have that kinda drops per say but its similer to how you get prime parts.

 

Now if it was like vindictus or atlantica online, then ya we would be in troble. hell even vavle is probibly in trouble with the tf2 crate system or CSGOs stupid stuff. it is effectively gambling. the only good thing about most of valve games that use a loot box is that it has a market place where you can just wait for people to undercut everyone eles and get it for cheep. most times.

[rune_me]

1 minute ago, Icari said:

Nothing in Warframe count as lootboxes because everything can be earned outside of bying them, the reason this storm happened was because EA had lootboxes with stuff you could get nowhere else, literally forcing you to spend real money to gamble them away for possible good loot if you wanted any chance at getting these items. Warframe is 100% fine, this isn't even a discussion. This should be common sense.

A lootbox doesn't mean "can't get anywere else". That's not an actual argument.

The problem with lootboxes is their gambling mechanics. That is what is being looked into.

I can get and earn money in other ways than playing the roulette. But playing the roulette is still gambling.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

Warframe will be fine, because there isn't much in the way of paying real money for a chance at something (Mod Packs not withstanding). to be honest they should just remove Mod Packs from all builds anyway, nobody really buys them and they won't be missed. you can get them from Baro who accepts an in-game currency on limited occasions, so they aren't entirely "lootboxes" anymore.

1 hour ago, Pent_ said:

I certainly hope they don't make lootboxes illegal. Since when did the government get to decide what's allowed in games?

..since bodies like the ESRB, people who are supposed to regulate games, decided to just let this Lootbox phenomenon get out of control, and then pretend to do something by making an arbitrary "online purchases" sticker that covers both Lootboxes and the less predatory counterpart of paid DLC. the Government has authority over the ESRB, so when they don't step up, the Government steps in.

besides, Lootboxes should only be in F2P games that decide NOT to make their premium currency available in game (Warframe does thankfully). that's how F2P games survive. but putting RNG lootboxes in a game that already costs £60? that's just taking the pi$$ frankly. and because the ESRB stood by and people started accepting it, now we have a gaming industry where games stand out for NOT trying to rip you off. sad times we live in.

 

[S.Dust]

no we're fine since we pay for what we want not a chance at what we want in game, also relics are an ingame system that gets you in game items and you cant buy relics.

[(XBOX)BigLithuanian]

8 minutes ago, (PS4)robotwars7 said:

now we have a gaming industry where games stand out for NOT trying to rip you off. sad times we live in.

It's very sad indeed.

[Firetempest]

Don't think anything in Warframe would be considered illegal by new rules. But DE is still guilty of having a store filled with noob traps and wasting what little free plat they are given at the start. Mods are easily found IF you know to find a wiki and see exactly where they drop. Same with mini packs of resources or credits. They are supplied as options but are excruciatingly poor value for what you can actually do with those amounts. 

The most they might have to do is release the % chance and full list of mods contained in a pack. Which I don't believe are included in their drop database.

[TotallyLagging]

Relics aren't lootbox, you're not paying anything for it

 

The only thing that will be affected by this are plat relic packs and mod packs. And I don't think anyone will miss those.

[Zanchak]

4 minutes ago, TotallyLagging said:

Relics aren't lootbox, you're not paying anything for it

The only thing that will be affected by this are plat relic packs and mod packs. And I don't think anyone will miss those.

This.

Too, one of the things I like about Warframes market is that you get what you choose to pay for, you don't get a "chance" at it. Im glad they never went down that road.

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, Tsukinoki said:

Right now the governments are going after paid lootboxes not earned lootboxes.
They don't really care about lootboxes that you can earn by playing the game and progressing.
What they care about are lootboxes where you pay real money for a chance to get something.  If you can earn lootboxes and trade the items within them for real money?  Its not gambling as you didn't pay for the lootboxes.

And cosmetic only gambling is still gambling.  Its really no different than P2W lootboxes.

Please define "lose"
Because by that "true loss" definition I can create a slot machine that will always pay out one penny if the person didn't roll a win and therefore it's not gambling!  After all you always get something.

There are tons of gambling systems that have a guaranteed reward, but are still considered gambling.  Largely because the "guaranteed rewards" are not worth anywhere near what you paid in order to gamble so still represent a "loss".

In a lootbox system say you get 34 of the exact same cosmetic.  Utterly useless to you.  Isn't that a "loss"?  Especially in some games where you can't trade or do anything with the cosmetic?
Or say in a character lootbox you keep getting the same characters over and over again.  Since you can't unlock a character more than once isn't that a loss as you didn't gain anything from the box?

That's the problem with the statement of "But is it really gambling if you always get something?"  By completely ignorring that the "something" can largely be utterly worthless or useless meaning that you still lost.

I did define lose and a penny would be similar to a few credits or a fieldron sample, simply something you gain nothing with. The relics actually have worth tied to them, "even" a forma is worth 20p and is a bronze reward in many cases. With 3 relics per pack, regaining those 50p spent isnt that hard. So this isnt a penny situation.

And the examples you bring up is nothing I disagree with you on. I was talking about Warframe and relic packs.

You also missquoted me further down with "but is it really gambling ig you always get something" I never said that so you shouldnt use the quotation marks. I said just as you actually quoted to begin with "But wouldnt the true definition of gamble have a "true loss" outcome aswell?". That isnt about getting something, that is about getting something of worth or not.

So please re-read my post and examples of what would be a "true loss" in WFs case. Plenty of other games have "true loss" just as the examples you mention, those are gambling boxes no doubt. But since everything in WF has a real value to it even if you already own it (see my forma example) I wouldnt consider void relics gamble on a level where it should be against the law. I'm not advocating keeping them around either, I'm just pointing out that void relics arent even close to being in the same ballpark, city, country, planet, star system or galaxy of many other games lootboxes.

edit: And we shouldnt lump WF into the vile bunch of games like Fortnite or early BFront2 etc. Those games have/had some of the most low-life approach towards lootboxes.

Edited April 26, 2018 by SneakyErvin

[Shad0wWatcher]

Really? Lootboxes are illegal in the Netherlands? I honestly didn't even know that, and i live there

[Syndrella]

21 minutes ago, Shad0wWatcher said:

Really? Lootboxes are illegal in the Netherlands? I honestly didn't even know that, and i live there

https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/267994-the-netherlands-declares-some-loot-boxes-illegal-warns-developers-to-modify-them

[Shad0wWatcher]

1 minute ago, Syndrella said:

https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/267994-the-netherlands-declares-some-loot-boxes-illegal-warns-developers-to-modify-them

Curious to how Blizzard will handle this.

[(XBOX)BigLithuanian]

I don't mind having to get a chance for relics or mods especially since relic packs are paid for by syndicate rep and you have a 100% choice to buy mod packs for a chance of a mod that you can earn or buy in the trade chat for straight platinum or exchange of item for item.

The problem I have with games and lootboxes is when they make them non-earnable in game, make the chance of earning them really low, release packs that are a clear ripoff(as Gears 4 does) with packs that are $10 and only give you 3 items(for real it is actually a thing), and games that lock 90%+ of its content(cosmetic or not) behind loot boxes (Ex: Halo 5 and Gears 4).

[TrockBronze]

there arent loot boxes in warframe

[Shad0wWatcher]

1 minute ago, TrockBronze said:

there arent loot boxes in warframe

But there is RNG like no mans business, they're just concerned about that.

[(XBOX)BigLithuanian]

Just now, Shad0wWatcher said:

Curious to how Blizzard will handle this.

In my opinion, Blizzard does a fine job with Lootboxes in Overwatch. You can earn them in game pretty easily and if your luck sucks you get currency that you can buy the items you want with. This is a tough subject because some companies do a good job with their game and Lootboxes and actually release quality content/have a quality game while others have a low quality game that gets boring quickly, makes you regret spending any money on them, and the Devs don't care about the community at all which is unfortunately becoming increasingly common. I would gladly spend money on Warframe because DE is respectable and I am happy to give them my hard earned money because I know they care. I've never regretted spending money on Warframe(and never will) because I get to support DE and I get quality content from the money I spent(sort of a reiteration sorry).

[(XBOX)AloneTorch]

Just now, Shad0wWatcher said:

But there is RNG like no mans business, they're just concerned about that.

I'd hope not, Since most of Warframe is built on the RNG of things; Warframe doesn't ever really force you into any paid slot kinda Mechanics.

[(XBOX)BigLithuanian]

2 minutes ago, Shad0wWatcher said:

But there is RNG like no mans business, they're just concerned about that.

Regular RNG isn't the problem, lootbox RNG is the problem because it's considered gambling especially when you can only buy the lootboxes. It sounded to me like you were trying to say the governments of those who banned the games, banned them because of regular RNG. If I'm wrong then I apologize.

[Shad0wWatcher]

1 minute ago, (XB1)AloneTorch said:

I'd hope not, Since most of Warframe is built on the RNG of things; Warframe doesn't ever really force you into any paid slot kinda Mechanics.

This is true, and by that, warframe shouldn't fall under this law cause nearly everything in this game is essentially free.

[Shad0wWatcher]

1 minute ago, (XB1)BigLithuanian said:

Regular RNG isn't the problem, lootbox RNG is the problem because it's considered gambling especially when you can only buy the lootboxes. It sounded to me like you were trying to say the governments of those who banned the games, banned them because of regular RNG. If I'm wrong then I apologize.

I know i know, i'm just stating the OP's concerns, not mine. Also no that's not what i meant xD. I'm just thinking the OP might thing that due to the large amount of RNG in warframe, it might fall under this law due to technicality cause of its heavy RNG 

Edited April 26, 2018 by Shad0wWatcher