So word has it a Nerf to Saryn is coming. Surprise...

[CrunchyCloud]

Just now, trst said:

Who said they're "nerfing the S#&$" out of her? They're nerfing her, yes, but as we have zero details as to what the changes will/might be we have no idea how much of an impact it'll make. DE also doesn't ignore feedback, if the proposed changes seem like too much then be ready to provide feedback when we get them.

 

If I had a say in the nerfs then I'd like to see the duration return while having all spores auto pop at the end. As well as increasing the damage ramp on the recast and gain bonus damage for each enemy killed by spores. Increased recast damage helps spores reliably kill low-mid level enemies while still benefiting from Onslaught's enemy spawns and actually have the recast be useful.

Pablo said she was "broken" in ESO, that's how he's approaching her nerf. Usually, if something is broken (OP) in warframe, it gets nerfed to the ground.

DE doesn't ignore feedback? Tell that to the hundreds of reddit and forum threads about rivens and univac suggestions and complaints.

Also, nice suggestion.

[(PSN)chubbslawson]

I read about 21 pages the update reports on her changes and it appears that the majority of the players don’t like the changes. Sounds like Pablo screwed up again 

[Ryim_Drykeon]

2 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

now her spores do have damage potential. before we did not even have that chance. and stripping armor is not "almost useless" its actually very very useful for a handful of reasons. 

Old Spores did 1500 damage per tic out the gate. Takes over a minute to reach that level under current system,e ven with high enemy saturation. So that's hardly a decent upgrade in damage potential. Armor stripping under level 50 is really not needed. Weapons alone rip through that, and Corrosive on weapons was a better option as it hit the single targets that did need it.

2 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

1-she did not lose her ability to proc viral over huge areas, its just in a different skill now
2-having a pub squad that all use CP is nonexistant, and making your own group with it is a big inconvenience for so many people
3-there are other aura mods that you can use when you stop needing cp.

1-Miasma doesn't spread Viral. It's just uses it to kill. Enemies melt. OP on lower levels, but doesn't scale.

2-If you're going into a mission where you need a full CP squad, you probably aren't going pub. Plus a good high RoF weapon with Corrosive (Soma) is far more effective than the Spores at stripping armor for pubs, if that's what you need.

3-I run with Regeneration, not CP. Was using it as an example 😎

2 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

rework made her undisputably better. yes, in low enemy density spores take a bit more work to spread, but where does the low enemy density happens? easy missions that did not need it anyway and can be just wiped up with new miasma instead. 

Your opinion that it's "better". As for where does low density happen? Everywhere outside of OS and EOS. That includes endless Infested Survival missions. Even after several hours, enemies are still coming in waves. "Easy missions" are anything under level 50 where you don't even need to use abilities, only weapons. Abilities on low levels are FUN, not needed.

[(PSN)Silverback73]

8 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

1) What is being done to her has not been given any detail.  So assuming a nerf is pre mature.

2) even if she is nerfed she's still probably be fine.  If saryn's spore damage is nerfed it's still going to be really strong because of how extra damage works vs targets who are weak to corrosive and still have armor.  if toxin lash no longer procs toxin with every shot it still will probably be usable on guns.  Which is still a plus.

The biggest change I can think of that's been suggested is spores damage not going away instantly when there is no infected and instead it ticks down in damage till you infect someone again.  The post specifically mentions feedback suggestions.  The last time this happened was with khora and she got better.

I suggested this without even playing it yet...like Naramon focus degrading Melee combo multiplier instead of it just reseting.

[Oreades]

6 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

now her spores do have damage potential. before we did not even have that chance. and stripping armor is not "almost useless" its actually very very useful for a handful of reasons. 

1-she did not lose her ability to proc viral over huge areas, its just in a different skill now
2-having a pub squad that all use CP is nonexistant, and making your own group with it is a big inconvenience for so many people
3-there are other aura mods that you can use when you stop needing cp.

rework made her undisputably better. yes, in low enemy density spores take a bit more work to spread, but where does the low enemy density happens? easy missions that did not need it anyway and can be just wiped up with new miasma instead. 

1- The problem with a single proc Viral is my understanding is that when it wears off they get all of that temporarily halved health back. Which is why having it on spores was IMO better because they kept reapplying viral, it keeps their health cut down. Tho I reserve the right to be wrong.

At the very least Viral would slice the enemies health in half right off the bat which means spores are already 50% less effective without it because they have to dig through all that extra health. 

2- In most cases with pubs, you're doing the starchart and it literally doesn't matter what you bring to the table. The few places it is going to matter people are more likely to collaborate and use four Corrosive projections. Which makes Saryns spores having a corrosive proc redundant to say the least. 

3- most of which are pretty meh, I think I've used maybe three other auras for very specific builds. Half the time I don't care what aura mod I use as long as it gives me the max extra mod points. 

[trst]

18 minutes ago, CrunchyCloud said:

Pablo said she was "broken" in ESO, that's how he's approaching her nerf. Usually, if something is broken (OP) in warframe, it gets nerfed to the ground.

DE doesn't ignore feedback? Tell that to the hundreds of reddit and forum threads about rivens and univac suggestions and complaints.

Also, nice suggestion.

I honestly don't understand the "nerfed to the ground" idea people have. A lot of changes meant to nerf things have ended up not actually being that big of a deal or ended up buffing it.

Simulor: ended up doing more damage but less over-time "passive" damage.

Chroma: functioned almost 100% identical in Eidolon hunting post-nerf and due to recasting being added you can retain the buffs without needing to self-damage again. He only really lost his insane armor rating.

Unairu's Stone Skin: everyone assumed the % to flat change was a nerf to high armor frames when the ONLY frame nerfed in EHP was Valkyr Prime (non Prime was unchanged) while every single other frame gains EHP from it.

Yes there are examples of things that were made almost useless but it most certainly isn't the case that a nerf always ruins something.

 

Far as univac goes DE seems to be outright against the idea and just don't want to add it at all. And making changes to Rivens that make them easier to get/roll just adds to the power creep issues we currently have.

Edited May 20, 2018 by trst

[(PSN)Yes-Man-Kablaam]

The only things likely really getting touched is spores and miasma cause it was pretty obvious those were some unbalanced powers especially the spores. No one should be surprised something is getting changed like c'mon.

[Zeclem]

17 minutes ago, Ryim_Drykeon said:

Old Spores did 1500 damage per tic out the gate. Takes over a minute to reach that level under current system,e ven with high enemy saturation. So that's hardly a decent upgrade in damage potential. Armor stripping under level 50 is really not needed. Weapons alone rip through that, and Corrosive on weapons was a better option as it hit the single targets that did need it.

since when it did 1500 tics at start? i'd like to see that. 

17 minutes ago, Ryim_Drykeon said:

1-Miasma doesn't spread Viral. It's just uses it to kill. Enemies melt. OP on lower levels, but doesn't scale.

it procs viral. on a very large aoe. 

17 minutes ago, Ryim_Drykeon said:

2-If you're going into a mission where you need a full CP squad, you probably aren't going pub. Plus a good high RoF weapon with Corrosive (Soma) is far more effective than the Spores at stripping armor for pubs, if that's what you need.

except thats not true at all, for the single fact of spores being aoe and have have 3 seperate tics that has %50 base corrosive proc chance. 

17 minutes ago, Ryim_Drykeon said:

Your opinion that it's "better". As for where does low density happen? Everywhere outside of OS and EOS. That includes endless Infested Survival missions. Even after several hours, enemies are still coming in waves. "Easy missions" are anything under level 50 where you don't even need to use abilities, only weapons. Abilities on low levels are FUN, not needed.

untrue. high density happens everywhere where enemies are too tough to be killed the moment the spawn, which is pretty much every high end content.

[CrunchyCloud]

13 minutes ago, trst said:

I honestly don't understand the "nerfed to the ground" idea people have. A lot of changes meant to nerf things have ended up not actually being that big of a deal or ended up buffing it.

Simulor: ended up doing more damage but less over-time "passive" damage.

Chroma: functioned almost 100% identical in Eidolon hunting post-nerf and due to recasting being added you can retain the buffs without needing to self-damage again. He only really lost his insane armor rating.

Unairu's Stone Skin: everyone assumed the % to flat change was a nerf to high armor frames when the ONLY frame nerfed in EHP was Valkyr Prime (non Prime was unchanged) while every single other frame gains EHP from it.

Yes there are examples of things that were made almost useless but it most certainly isn't the case that a nerf always ruins something.

 

Far as univac goes DE seems to be outright against the idea and just don't want to add it at all. And making changes to Rivens that make them easier to get/roll just adds to the power creep issues we currently have.

Univac (a toggleable option in the menu that lets you choose wether you want your warframe to have innate vacuum) is a great idea, and at this point i think this is about feelings and ego rather than reason.

And rivens shouldn't exist in the first place because "breathing new life" into old weapons is achieved by tweaks and rebalances like DE has been doing lately. At this point they're more about making DE money.

[trst]

1 minute ago, CrunchyCloud said:

Univac (a toggleable option in the menu that lets you choose wether you want your warframe to have innate vacuum) is a great idea, and at this point i think this is about feelings and ego rather than reason.

And rivens shouldn't exist in the first place because "breathing new life" into old weapons is achieved by tweaks and rebalances like DE has been doing lately. At this point they're more about making DE money.

That's what I was trying to get at, I agree that it's a feelings issue with univac. I can understand why they wouldn't but I do think they should just fold and silence the screaming over it already.

With the weapon rebalancing they did they've tried to go full on with balancing weapons into tiers based on their mastery locks. If they stick to this (and there are exceptions currently) then a mr3 weapon will(should) never beat a mr13 weapon. Rivens try to come in and help balance things out for people who want to use these low mr weapons. And yeah they do make them a good bit of money but DE didn't decide that they're worth 2k+ plat. Rivens are far from perfect but they have an oddly shaped place in the game.

[Ryim_Drykeon]

7 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

since when it did 1500 tics at start? i'd like to see that. 

Then have them bring back the old version and I'll show you. Saryn was amazing if you knew how to build/play her synergies.

8 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

it procs viral. on a very large aoe. 

Procs. Not "Spreads". The main benefit of her old style was wiping half the health of every enemy in sight. Not only did this help Saryn (for her Miasma then), but the entire squad in making it easier to kill, and to keep it that way.

8 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

except thats not true at all, for the single fact of spores being aoe and have have 3 seperate tics that has %50 base corrosive proc chance.

As opposed to a weapon that hits 10+ times a second for 100% status proc chance? With Punchthrough and Mutishot to hit multiple targets at once? With Soma Prime I can strip armor far faster than Saryn's current build. Especially given that I can aim at new enemies without needing to wait for the Spores to spread there. 3 shots and one is at 54% armor (and starts to hit diminishing returns on any corrosive armor stripping outside of CP). Yes, it's not AoE (neither are Spores if you can't get a dense enough enemy group to keep it going), so you have to -aim-. Heaven forbid. Though the number of enemies you really need to strip armor from is limited to a handful, and just wasted on the majority of trash enemies.

8 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

untrue. high density happens everywhere where enemies are too tough to be killed the moment the spawn, which is pretty much every high end content.

Your definition of "high density" vastly differs from mine then. I only call it high density at 20+ enemies in one group. Less than that.....just shoot them. As for enemies that can't be killed at the moment of spawn....those are rare, even at high level. Mainly because at that level, one is running with a squad and have various abilities/weapons in play. Watch a few of the videos on Endless Survival missions to beat the time record (at 10 hours now I believe), and tell me which enemies last more than 2 seconds. Yeah, that's the extreme meta, but everything just lowers from there.

[(XBOX)CFE KOS MOS]

1 hour ago, Corvid said:

There's a difference between being powerful, and being overpowered.

She wasn't overpowered, ding dong.

[Zeclem]

10 minutes ago, Ryim_Drykeon said:

Then have them bring back the old version and I'll show you. Saryn was amazing if you knew how to build/play her synergies.

yes she was pretty damn good. but im p sure i never saw damage tics that reached those amounts or even half of it so yeah.

Quote

Procs. Not "Spreads". The main benefit of her old style was wiping half the health of every enemy in sight. Not only did this help Saryn (for her Miasma then), but the entire squad in making it easier to kill, and to keep it that way.

and miasma can do that now as well.

Quote

As opposed to a weapon that hits 10+ times a second for 100% status proc chance? With Punchthrough and Mutishot to hit multiple targets at once? With Soma Prime I can strip armor far faster than Saryn's current build. Especially given that I can aim at new enemies without needing to wait for the Spores to spread there. 3 shots and one is at 54% armor (and starts to hit diminishing returns on any corrosive armor stripping outside of CP). Yes, it's not AoE (neither are Spores if you can't get a dense enough enemy group to keep it going), so you have to -aim-. Heaven forbid. Though the number of enemies you really need to strip armor from is limited to a handful, and just wasted on the majority of trash enemies.

soma prime can not reach %100 status chance, nor it can strip off armor as fast as spores. thats simply not comparable if you have some decent range on spores for masses, especially when considering with toxic lash also works on all weapons for spreading the said procs via spreading the spores. and considering that even trash mobs can pose a serious threat in this game, "number of enemies you should strip armor from" is quite a bigger count than what you presume. 

Quote

Your definition of "high density" vastly differs from mine then.

i guess so yeah, but if we consider your idea of "high density" not even ESO is that dense. half the time enemy groups are less than 20. 

i guess all theres to do here is just agree to disagree. 

Edited May 20, 2018 by Zeclem

[PopGligor]

9 hours ago, mrrobotto67 said:

I always wondered why they did that last change to saryn to begin with xD

Because her meta was incredibly boring. There's a common understanding in game design that if you give players a dominant strategy that requires zero effort to execute and is terribly boring, they will often pick it over actually having fun. Then you compound that with multiplayer games, incredible competition in this field, if players are bored with a game, they'll leave. So just purely as a service, you don't want players to have boring dominant strategies.

[Saturmorn_Carvilli]

I am not surprised at all by this.  I was fairly sure when others were saying that Saryn wasn't going to be nerfed and was going to be stronger that would last only a couple of weeks.  Saryn before the rework was in an okay spot.  Maybe not in the highest tier of frames but a good deal better than more than a half a dozen other frames that could actually use a rework.  When people said she was going to be stronger than she was before, I figured that it would take all of two weeks or less before DE reins that back in after the rework goes into the wild. I haven't even bothered to play her since the rework.  Not because of the rework alone though. She isn't a frame I played often mostly because the Molt and Spore trick is hassle for me cycling through powers on my controller's D-pad.  So it isn't like I refuse to play her, just that she is not a frame I pick often anyways, and I suspected DE wasn't fiddling with it. 

Just a heads up to any new players.  Anytime DE reworks a frame and makes them better than they were, especially if the were in an okay spot, expect that isn't the end of the rework. Saryn isn't the first and she certainly isn't going to be the last.  My guess would be Limbo being next of the rework (in conjunction with his Prime) to be a little more squad friendly at the cost of making Excavation, Interception and Mobile Defense type missions trivial and impossible to fail.  If true, I think that would be considered a straight up nerf though.  I am still surprised that DE allows Limbo to completely make several mission/bounty types completely trivial with his only real drawback is few other players want to play with a Limbo in their squad.

[mrrobotto67]

Justo ahora, QuietBiro dijo:

Because her meta was incredibly boring. There's a common understanding in game design that if you give players a dominant strategy that requires zero effort to execute and is terribly boring, they will often pick it over actually having fun. Then you compound that with multiplayer games, incredible competition in this field, if players are bored with a game, they'll leave. So just purely as a service, you don't want players to have boring dominant strategies.

I understand it, but just on my experience playing with Saryn so far, i think she is boring now. Before this update i had mad fun with her. Probably just style of play, but personally i didn't think the fun factor wasn't a problem with Saryn.

[Twilight053]

9 hours ago, -Temp0- said:

how utterly broken she is in Onslaught.

Yes it is a ***ing nerf.

Stop sugarcoating it. No one cares about "mormal" missions because enemies under lv 50 die when you sneeze in their general direction regardless of your frames, mods and team setup that's why any frame is viable there and literally a couple past that mark, especially dps.

What do you want then? First, people call Saryn useless because she's literally unusable in low level content (which is, 99.5% of the game), then you complain that Saryn shouldn't be flipping low level vegetables in a house literally made of bloody flippin' vegetables?

Edited May 20, 2018 by Twilight053

[MattM01]

A question and no salt no biased a simple question. What was wrong with Saryn's set up before this re-work? I thought she was well balanced and fun.

[(PSN)chubbslawson]

Nothing was wrong with her.   It is almost like de sees us having fun with something and says oh they are having fun with that we better change it

[MattM01]

10 minutes ago, QuietBiro said:

Because her meta was incredibly boring. There's a common understanding in game design that if you give players a dominant strategy that requires zero effort to execute and is terribly boring, they will often pick it over actually having fun. Then you compound that with multiplayer games, incredible competition in this field, if players are bored with a game, they'll leave. So just purely as a service, you don't want players to have boring dominant strategies.

Yeah still waiting to properly Nerf the living hell out of Banshee's 4th. I don't understand how this annoying skill hasn't been nerfed. 9 times out of 10 if someone is using a sound quake Banshee I leave the game.

[Voladrios]

il y a une heure, Ryim_Drykeon a dit :

Old Spores did 1500 damage per tic out the gate. Takes over a minute to reach that level under current system,e ven with high enemy saturation. So that's hardly a decent upgrade in damage potential. Armor stripping under level 50 is really not needed. Weapons alone rip through that, and Corrosive on weapons was a better option as it hit the single targets that did need it.

Spore doing 1500 on its own? Highly doubt that, buddy.

[AuroraSonicBoom]

3 minutes ago, MattM01 said:

A question and no salt no biased a simple question. What was wrong with Saryn's set up before this re-work? I thought she was well balanced and fun.

Her kit encouraged standing in a spot and repeating the same button presses.

Now her kit encourages standing in a spot and not even doing anything anymore.

🤔

[rune_me]

1 hour ago, Ryim_Drykeon said:

Old Spores did 1500 damage per tic out the gate.

Lol, no. They didn't even do more than a 100. In fact, according to the wiki page before the rework if you maxed out Saryn's power strenght AND ran Energy Convertion she'd do 74.6 per tic.

Quote

Maximized Ability Strength increases spore damage to 74.6 per second, burst damage to 93.25, and damage percentage to 93.25%.

-Without Energy Conversion, increases spore damage to 64.6 per second, burst damage to 80.75, and damage percentage to 80.75%.

-Increases cost to 38.75 energy.

-Reduces duration to 8.7 seconds.

https://web.archive.org/web/20180116201710/http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Saryn

So 1500 give and take a few thousand.

[MattM01]

2 minutes ago, AuroraSonicBoom said:

Her kit encouraged standing in a spot and repeating the same button presses.

Now her kit encourages standing in a spot and not even doing anything anymore.

🤔

If that really is D.E.'s logic, then there are going to be a lot of frames that are going to be getting re worked then nerfed after the re work. I hope that does not have a bad outcome for D.E.. I honestly like the game and I posted this not to bash D.E. at all.

[CupcakesMoo]

General rule: Any nerfed item is garbage tier especially when the balance is in the hands of the community.

I will play the new saryn after my hiatus and if she sucks I will just play valkyr. I have one or two more formas to set on valkyr anyway. 

Edit: On the other hand playing a nerfed saryn could generate lulz in pubs. 

Edited May 20, 2018 by CupcakesMoo